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On January 02 2014 09:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 06:14 TheDwf wrote:On January 02 2014 06:04 Bagi wrote:On January 02 2014 04:59 ZenithM wrote:
I like how Terran's problem is its beautiful design :'(
It's a good thing that top players are able to distinguish themselves from decent players, I wouldn't trade that off for a few % in winrates. It's hardly beautiful design when the race consists of massing their first combat units and a handful of other ones for support. One viable unit comp, no transitions, nothing but the same timing attack game after game. You might consider the race ideal if you thought this a game of mechanics and nothing else, but many of us would rather have more than that. The race needs to be much, much less reliant on the marine, no matter how much of a boner some people have for microing them. Thing is, mech issues in TvP/Z (more in TvP than in TvZ) are not only due to the fact mech is not very well built in SC2; it's also because the other side has so much hardcounter nonsense. Units like the Immortal, the Tempest, the Swarm host or the Viper are also, if not mostly, responsible for Terran being forced or "'strongly encouraged" to play bio. You can look at it as hardcounter nonsense, but you can also look at it as lack of Mech design/balancing. And with all respect, if amongst 5 Factory units and 4 Starport units you can't find proper ways to deal with stuff that isn't even existent in the ZvZ and TvZ bio metagame and situational in the PvZ metagame I tend to blame Mech for it and not the Blinding Cloud, even if I'd propose to change the cloud because it's the easy way and would allow for an interesting mechanic (Siege Mode) to shine. Similarily with Immortals and Archons. (don't consider SHs as dealbreakers for anything, especially after the last Mech buffs; and Tempests scenarios are way to exotic and unfigured when we assume a world in which Mech is not an autolose on the ground already). It's really much less the fault of the Archon that 1.5techpaths of Terran cannot break high HP opponents that aren't armored, nor the Immortals that nearly everything Mech is designed around high burst and basically nothing about constant fireing or reasonable AtG combat at a reasonable timing (like mutas or VRs). That's all on Mech and hardly on the other races for having such stuff.
The "explosive damage" model rather than the "sustained" one is not a problem in TvT or TvZ, so why is it in TvP? Because Hardened Shields. The ability was reactively designed as a hardcounter, so of course it exploits the weaknesses of mech. By your logic, it's like saying Sieged Tanks are poorly designed because they can't move out of Blinding Clouds…
Tempests are not an "exotic scenario" at all against mech, they're one of the staple answers and most people who tried mech TvP will tell you how little sense Tempests/Templars makes.
On January 02 2014 11:59 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
I want to hear someone defend 5:50 proxy oracle build in TvP. Someone here make the case.
I recently lost to this. I scouted his main with reaper, and ran the reaper around the map. I somehow didn't see the proxy.
I had 4 marines from my 2 barracks and was making a tech lab on my factory in case of a blink all in from a proxy I might not have seen.
Because I had 4 marines at 5:50 due to making that initial reaper, I lost all my marines and proceeded to lose the game.
Where is the skill there? Where is the actual gameplay? Any terran build that doesn't have 5 marines at 5:50 auto loses to a proxy that you might not scout, even if you make a unit specifically to scout it.
You're using a bad build if you have a Factory, 2 rax and still only 4 Marines at 5'50. Check the HotS Terran Help Me Thread in the Strategy section for proper builds. And by the way, it's 6 Marines to kill an Oracle, not 5.
On January 02 2014 12:17 RampancyTW wrote:
Mine first, then tech lab.
A Mine is not out in time for the fastest proxy Oracles after a Reaper expand into 1-1-1.
On January 02 2014 12:41 ZenithM wrote:
If 5:50 is the earliest proxy oracle timing (I don't know the timings very well, oracles seem to be able to pop up in my mineral line at completely random times haha), it should be visible on the reaper scout right? Like, he probably has to skip the MS core or something, he can't possibly build his stargate straight after the cybercore and still have a normal Protoss base look :D
5:10 in your mineral line is the earliest Oracle timing (in which case you don't have 6 Marines with a Reaper Reactor expand). Indeed it looks obvious when you scout Protoss' base as the second pylon is proxied and chrono is saved.
On January 02 2014 14:38 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 12:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 02 2014 12:17 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 11:59 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
I want to hear someone defend 5:50 proxy oracle build in TvP. Someone here make the case.
I recently lost to this. I scouted his main with reaper, and ran the reaper around the map. I somehow didn't see the proxy.
I had 4 marines from my 2 barracks and was making a tech lab on my factory in case of a blink all in from a proxy I might not have seen.
Because I had 4 marines at 5:50 (or whatever random Oracle timing we are discussing) due to making that initial reaper, I lost all my marines and proceeded to lose the game.
Where is the skill there? Where is the actual gameplay? Any terran build that doesn't have 5 marines at 5:50 auto loses to a proxy that you might not scout, even if you make a unit specifically to scout it. Mine first, then tech lab. You failed to account for the fact that you were going to have a low marine count, when you had incomplete knowledge of your opponent's build. If you'd built the mine first, then the tech lab, you would have been able to fend off the Oracle (or at least buy time for more marines), while still being able to get a tank out in time for a blink all-in. I think what is so weird with SC2 here is that so early as 5 minutes (or whatever random Oracle timing we are discussing) into the game one of the races have the potenial to make a misstake that straight out loses him the game (Terran) and the other race cannot be killed by anything during the first 10 minutes. I dont think you should be able to lose vs one unit because you were 3 seconds slow on producing Marine 5/6. Just my five cents... I mean, there are no situations in the game when you can say to a Protoss "you scouted bad and started your Stalker 2 seconds to late so you just autodie, blame yourself". It was like that for the entirety of WoL for protoss and is still like that in PvZ early game if you gate expand. One missed forcefield or skip a sentry, and bam, you lose.
Pure nonsense. There was nothing in WoL 2012-13 PvT like "your fifth and sixth Marines are a bit late, you auto-lose". Comparing how brutally unforgiving HotS TvP is with WoL PvT or HotS PvZ is really ridiculous.
On January 02 2014 15:12 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 14:50 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 14:38 Whitewing wrote:On January 02 2014 12:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 02 2014 12:17 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 11:59 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
I want to hear someone defend 5:50 proxy oracle build in TvP. Someone here make the case.
I recently lost to this. I scouted his main with reaper, and ran the reaper around the map. I somehow didn't see the proxy.
I had 4 marines from my 2 barracks and was making a tech lab on my factory in case of a blink all in from a proxy I might not have seen.
Because I had 4 marines at 5:50 (or whatever random Oracle timing we are discussing) due to making that initial reaper, I lost all my marines and proceeded to lose the game.
Where is the skill there? Where is the actual gameplay? Any terran build that doesn't have 5 marines at 5:50 auto loses to a proxy that you might not scout, even if you make a unit specifically to scout it. Mine first, then tech lab. You failed to account for the fact that you were going to have a low marine count, when you had incomplete knowledge of your opponent's build. If you'd built the mine first, then the tech lab, you would have been able to fend off the Oracle (or at least buy time for more marines), while still being able to get a tank out in time for a blink all-in. I think what is so weird with SC2 here is that so early as 5 minutes (or whatever random Oracle timing we are discussing) into the game one of the races have the potenial to make a misstake that straight out loses him the game (Terran) and the other race cannot be killed by anything during the first 10 minutes. I dont think you should be able to lose vs one unit because you were 3 seconds slow on producing Marine 5/6. Just my five cents... I mean, there are no situations in the game when you can say to a Protoss "you scouted bad and started your Stalker 2 seconds to late so you just autodie, blame yourself". It was like that for the entirety of WoL for protoss and is still like that in PvZ early game if you gate expand. One missed forcefield or skip a sentry, and bam, you lose. Would people stop posting useless things like this..WOL is over man. And no matter how bad the balance might or might not have been back then, it will never excuse what is going on in the MUs right now. If you dont have anything worthwhile to post, just dont say anything. It's still like that in PvP and PvZ in various ways, and IIRC, the 8/8/8 build for terran kills a fair amount of openers from all 3 races if they don't play safely early. Matchups have requirements. Any terran build that doesn't include 5 marines by 5:50 is a gamble vs. toss. Any zerg build that doesn't include a spawning pool before 3rd hatch is a gamble. Builds can be greedy in different ways, but skimping on units is greedy. Protoss has restrictions like this too, as does zerg. It's not just terran. That's what it means to play a matchup: you need to plan accordingly for what your opponent might do. Protoss has to either all-in, open stargate, or risk being forced into a basetrade with a low probability of winning vs. zerg if he decides to make mutas at any point in time. Protoss needs to open templar first or go up to a stupid amount of colossus to not die to an scv pull: the fact that that scv pull exists kills the old 1 colossus into storm builds. Certain strategies and builds are greedy or risky: that will always be true. If you don't want to get stupid losses, don't do those builds. Otherwise, accept the fact that you will sometimes lose in that way.
Lol. 8-8-8 has zero impact on Zerg or Protoss builds, and minimal consequences on Terran ones as CC first is already in jeopardy vs other proxies. SCVs pulls have nothing to do with "killing the old 1 Colossus into Storm builds," they're actually awful against such a build...
On January 02 2014 20:33 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 19:47 Qwerty85 wrote:On January 02 2014 04:06 ETisME wrote:
We were the ones to tell them stop with overpatching.
Now it is no word no action patching attitude. Well I think they overpatched with the mine nerf and oracle buff. So someconsistency would be good. People complained about the frequency of patching, not the level of changes. Wait a few months for metagame to stable before patching etcetc
Damage the game with a dumb unnecessary patch, then declare "time is needed". Sounds oddly familiar.
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On January 02 2014 18:50 Hider wrote:Show nested quote + Or less TvTs. Even if there are same amount of Terrans in a tournament, the amount of TvTs (or in general T games) will be lower since the Terrans are not as likely to meet as often, due to falling out a little eariler and thereby providing less games.
The winrates in WoL TvZ didn't go to 50-50 eventually. They went to 45% and then they stayed there. (in the GSL Terran had 1-2 good seasons, but eventually the winrates also rather dropped than went to 50%). Notice I use the term "eventually" as in the long-run. It simply takes time before all of the "sub-par" terrans aren't invitied/qualified for tournmanents anymore. But if we now have 20% terran playeers, 30% zergs and 50% protoss's, and terran still have less than 50% w/r, then the amount of terran players left will eventually get even lower if no balance patches are added). Then we will have the top-top terran players playing against sub-zergs and sub-sub protoss players. W/R will then be roughly 50-50 and we will have ignorant TL posters arguing that the game is balanced. However, luckily for sanity, that's probably not going to happen as Blizzard probably are gonna implement a balance-patch relatively soon. Show nested quote +The winrates in WoL TvZ didn't go to 50-50 eventually. They went to 45% and then they stayed there. (in the GSL Terran had 1-2 good seasons, but eventually the winrates also rather dropped than went to 50%). That makes a lot of sense though for two reasons; 1) The difference between midrun results and long-term results 2) Zerg's getting increasingly better at abusing Broodlord/Infestor. When one race has the better lategame composition, the race will typically perform better over time even if no balance patches are added into the game as they get better at getting to that stage in the game. But it would still have gotten to 50-50 eventually, but then we would probably have seen only Flash and Innovation playing in GSL against 30 patch-zergs. Show nested quote +
I don't see the winrates going to 50% eventually. The overall Terran winrate has been <50% since August, and that's why we see less Terran players currently (e.g. in Proleague).
That's also exactly what I had expected. Let's at the state of Sc2 back in August. We had zergs starting to figure out TvZ and we had terrans relying extremely much on scv-pulls vs protoss in a matchup that otherwise was considered unwinable for terran. Even pre-mine nerf we saw situations where 30+ Mutalisks simply seemed quite OP (Innovation vs Curious is a quite good example thereof), and I think it was quite that over time zergs would be better at abusing Mutalisks, thus w/r would have gone up regardless of Mine-Nerf. When the Mine-nerf hit, the effect was obviously further strenghtened. For TvP, it seemed that protoss just learned to beat the Scv-pull and the balance W/R we are seeing now aren't expected at all. So what a W/R above 55% is telling us, is that protoss's and zergs are performing better against terrans, but not that there neccesarily is a balance problem. There is only a balance problem if the sub-top protoss/zergs are being matched up against top-terran players and still winnng +50% of games. Show nested quote +
E.g. Low Zerg winrates at the beginning of WoL, low amount of Zerg proplayers in highlevel tournaments.
That's due to the difference between the long-run and short/midrun as I discussed above. W/R would have gone back to 50-50 as fewer zerg players would be inviited/qualified to tournmanets/eligible for competitive play if these conditions were met; - There were no balance patches for a decent amount of time (let's say for 6 months or so). - Zergs didn't figure out the cheesy protoss/terran styles we saw back then However, as both of these conditions weren't met, it resulted in both the amount of active zerg players and W/R increasing. Again, this is perfectly what anyone would have expected.
I agree with most of what you say, yet I still think it is not a very useful observation, since past experience has told us that this "longrun" means a periode of a year or more of thinning. And even then it may not be enough, Taeja and INnoVation weren't really closer to competing with Zergs at the end of WoL, than Mvp was months before.
The time periodes to see these effects are too long, unless you want to imply that Terran has been underpowered for a long time, which I can't agree with given how it was the most successful race in most tournamentbased statistics from March-November of this year and we are not talking just 1 or 2 players.
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They should never have done the patch, or at least had some sort of nerf for the muta. tvz was amazing pre patch, it's a fucking tragedy they did what they did.
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minigun is currently chatting with the b.net community over b.net forum
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No matter how you look at it, the current situation is really similar to the queen patch turn of events. The matchups were all close to 50% winrate, and Blizzard declared that the situation was too difficult to handle for zerg (or some shit like that) and they felt too pressured against hellions, and pulled the trigger on the worst patch in SC2 history (go to http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ if you want to check).
And then did nothing to change that for months, leaving Terran with sub-45% winrates, except for the tip-top players (that are still today the only Terrans to be able to win something, aka Taeja and Innovation. Maru wasn't ready yet :D).
I just hope that if the situation gets out of hand even more than it has now, Blizzard will react "a bit" faster than "it'll be fine next expansion pack, guys".
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On January 02 2014 22:20 ZenithM wrote:No matter how you look at it, the current situation is really similar to the queen patch turn of events. The matchups were all close to 50% winrate, and Blizzard declared that the situation was too difficult to handle for zerg (or some shit like that) and they felt too pressured against hellions, and pulled the trigger on the worst patch in SC2 history (go to http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ if you want to check). And then did nothing to change that for months, leaving Terran with sub-45% winrates, except for the tip-top players (that are still today the only Terrans to be able to win something, aka Taeja and Innovation. Maru wasn't ready yet :D). I just hope that if the situation gets out of hand even more than it has now, Blizzard will react "a bit" faster than "it'll be fine next expansion pack, guys".
TvZ still doesn't feel as hard right now as ZvT did pre hellbat nerf to be fair, though the oracle change was fucking retarded.
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On January 02 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 22:20 ZenithM wrote:No matter how you look at it, the current situation is really similar to the queen patch turn of events. The matchups were all close to 50% winrate, and Blizzard declared that the situation was too difficult to handle for zerg (or some shit like that) and they felt too pressured against hellions, and pulled the trigger on the worst patch in SC2 history (go to http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ if you want to check). And then did nothing to change that for months, leaving Terran with sub-45% winrates, except for the tip-top players (that are still today the only Terrans to be able to win something, aka Taeja and Innovation. Maru wasn't ready yet :D). I just hope that if the situation gets out of hand even more than it has now, Blizzard will react "a bit" faster than "it'll be fine next expansion pack, guys". TvZ still doesn't feel as hard right now as ZvT did pre hellbat nerf to be fair, though the oracle change was fucking retarded.
lol. Hellbats were "that other build he could do" that wasn't as scary as straight up 3CC double ebays at that time.
Hellbats were like Oracle builds in TvP are now. Not overpowered per se, but stupid since you are dead if you are not perfectly prepared but preparing is enough damage to justify the build.
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On January 02 2014 23:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 02 2014 22:20 ZenithM wrote:No matter how you look at it, the current situation is really similar to the queen patch turn of events. The matchups were all close to 50% winrate, and Blizzard declared that the situation was too difficult to handle for zerg (or some shit like that) and they felt too pressured against hellions, and pulled the trigger on the worst patch in SC2 history (go to http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ if you want to check). And then did nothing to change that for months, leaving Terran with sub-45% winrates, except for the tip-top players (that are still today the only Terrans to be able to win something, aka Taeja and Innovation. Maru wasn't ready yet :D). I just hope that if the situation gets out of hand even more than it has now, Blizzard will react "a bit" faster than "it'll be fine next expansion pack, guys". TvZ still doesn't feel as hard right now as ZvT did pre hellbat nerf to be fair, though the oracle change was fucking retarded. lol. Hellbats were "that other build he could do" that wasn't as scary as straight up 3CC double ebays at that time.
Did you actually play Z during that moment in time? You lost so many games to scouted hellbat drops since they were so strong they required an over reaction to deal with. Do you remember TvT, the 100 of workers killed everygame. There is no need to even talk about the hellbats since they were to strong. They were even to strong in TvT.
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On January 02 2014 23:10 kiLen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 23:05 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 02 2014 22:20 ZenithM wrote:No matter how you look at it, the current situation is really similar to the queen patch turn of events. The matchups were all close to 50% winrate, and Blizzard declared that the situation was too difficult to handle for zerg (or some shit like that) and they felt too pressured against hellions, and pulled the trigger on the worst patch in SC2 history (go to http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ if you want to check). And then did nothing to change that for months, leaving Terran with sub-45% winrates, except for the tip-top players (that are still today the only Terrans to be able to win something, aka Taeja and Innovation. Maru wasn't ready yet :D). I just hope that if the situation gets out of hand even more than it has now, Blizzard will react "a bit" faster than "it'll be fine next expansion pack, guys". TvZ still doesn't feel as hard right now as ZvT did pre hellbat nerf to be fair, though the oracle change was fucking retarded. lol. Hellbats were "that other build he could do" that wasn't as scary as straight up 3CC double ebays at that time. Did you actually play Z during that moment in time? You lost so many games to scouted hellbat drops since they were so strong they required an over reaction to deal with. Do you remember TvT, the 100 of workers killed everygame. There is no need to even talk about the hellbats since they were to strong. They were even to strong in TvT.
Im talking TvZ only. They were quite handleable. You could scout them most of the time, and you could minimize losses most of the time with static defense and micro, even if you weren't on a roach build.
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lol. Hellbats were "that other build he could do" that wasn't as scary as straight up 3CC double ebays at that time.
Hellbats were like Oracle builds in TvP are now. Not overpowered per se, but stupid since you are dead if you are not perfectly prepared but preparing is enough damage to justify the build.
This brings to light a lot of problems in TvP in general though. We HAVE to do things to make sure we don't die and we have to be meticulous about it....
Some protoss argue well we have to Make colo or storm by this time or we die... well yea but Don't you want that anyway for your late game army? Or MSC protoss claim well they have to invest in that early to stay alive but then again DOn't you want that for the Massive utility for all ins or just defending late game against Drops or midgame and Timewarp for stopping Nat PUshes....
Protoss gets the MOST utility out of every unit they have with the least amount of effort.... to me thats a huge problem in the early game.... I actually cringe when i hear OH thats a good storm... its like the only thing the guy did was T click.... When i was Plat Terran I could storm just as good as a High Level protoss.... The only High Skill ceiling when playing the match up is Being Able to Snipe Split Macro Split Emp SNipe Focus Fire Colo Step back Split Kite Macro Snipe in one engagement LOL
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On January 02 2014 23:10 kiLen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 23:05 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 02 2014 22:20 ZenithM wrote:No matter how you look at it, the current situation is really similar to the queen patch turn of events. The matchups were all close to 50% winrate, and Blizzard declared that the situation was too difficult to handle for zerg (or some shit like that) and they felt too pressured against hellions, and pulled the trigger on the worst patch in SC2 history (go to http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ if you want to check). And then did nothing to change that for months, leaving Terran with sub-45% winrates, except for the tip-top players (that are still today the only Terrans to be able to win something, aka Taeja and Innovation. Maru wasn't ready yet :D). I just hope that if the situation gets out of hand even more than it has now, Blizzard will react "a bit" faster than "it'll be fine next expansion pack, guys". TvZ still doesn't feel as hard right now as ZvT did pre hellbat nerf to be fair, though the oracle change was fucking retarded. lol. Hellbats were "that other build he could do" that wasn't as scary as straight up 3CC double ebays at that time. Did you actually play Z during that moment in time? You lost so many games to scouted hellbat drops since they were so strong they required an over reaction to deal with. Do you remember TvT, the 100 of workers killed everygame. There is no need to even talk about the hellbats since they were to strong. They were even to strong in TvT.
Big J is right. They were too strong above all in TvT, then powerful in TvZ but indeed not as good as the triple OC dual EB builds, then fine in TvP.
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On January 02 2014 23:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 23:10 kiLen wrote:On January 02 2014 23:05 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 02 2014 22:20 ZenithM wrote:No matter how you look at it, the current situation is really similar to the queen patch turn of events. The matchups were all close to 50% winrate, and Blizzard declared that the situation was too difficult to handle for zerg (or some shit like that) and they felt too pressured against hellions, and pulled the trigger on the worst patch in SC2 history (go to http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ if you want to check). And then did nothing to change that for months, leaving Terran with sub-45% winrates, except for the tip-top players (that are still today the only Terrans to be able to win something, aka Taeja and Innovation. Maru wasn't ready yet :D). I just hope that if the situation gets out of hand even more than it has now, Blizzard will react "a bit" faster than "it'll be fine next expansion pack, guys". TvZ still doesn't feel as hard right now as ZvT did pre hellbat nerf to be fair, though the oracle change was fucking retarded. lol. Hellbats were "that other build he could do" that wasn't as scary as straight up 3CC double ebays at that time. Did you actually play Z during that moment in time? You lost so many games to scouted hellbat drops since they were so strong they required an over reaction to deal with. Do you remember TvT, the 100 of workers killed everygame. There is no need to even talk about the hellbats since they were to strong. They were even to strong in TvT. Im talking TvZ only. They were quite handleable. You could scout them most of the time, and you could minimize losses most of the time with static defense and micro, even if you weren't on a roach build.
I remember hellbat drops ON ROACHES which decimated them pretty fast.
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They were even to strong in TvT.
In fact they were too strong only in TvT.
But Terran had 2 builds different builds at that time, and it was the first time since hell-knows-when so I can understand the amazement Z players felt.
Oh, btw, I'm mostly playing Zerg since HoTS, sinceTerran is as unfun as uneffective right now. At least it was fun before.
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On January 02 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 23:15 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 23:10 kiLen wrote:On January 02 2014 23:05 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 02 2014 22:20 ZenithM wrote:No matter how you look at it, the current situation is really similar to the queen patch turn of events. The matchups were all close to 50% winrate, and Blizzard declared that the situation was too difficult to handle for zerg (or some shit like that) and they felt too pressured against hellions, and pulled the trigger on the worst patch in SC2 history (go to http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ if you want to check). And then did nothing to change that for months, leaving Terran with sub-45% winrates, except for the tip-top players (that are still today the only Terrans to be able to win something, aka Taeja and Innovation. Maru wasn't ready yet :D). I just hope that if the situation gets out of hand even more than it has now, Blizzard will react "a bit" faster than "it'll be fine next expansion pack, guys". TvZ still doesn't feel as hard right now as ZvT did pre hellbat nerf to be fair, though the oracle change was fucking retarded. lol. Hellbats were "that other build he could do" that wasn't as scary as straight up 3CC double ebays at that time. Did you actually play Z during that moment in time? You lost so many games to scouted hellbat drops since they were so strong they required an over reaction to deal with. Do you remember TvT, the 100 of workers killed everygame. There is no need to even talk about the hellbats since they were to strong. They were even to strong in TvT. Im talking TvZ only. They were quite handleable. You could scout them most of the time, and you could minimize losses most of the time with static defense and micro, even if you weren't on a roach build. I remember hellbat drops ON ROACHES which decimated them pretty fast.
so? their combat relations against roaches haven't changed at all with the patch.
The solution is and was to split and kite your roaches and targetfire the medivac with queens.
Edit: And I don't want to say I'm against the patch. Personally I don't like standard, macroable builds that have too much potential to win the game very early and limit the opponent too much (same goes for the oracle in TvP). But was it necessary? No. Was it a "nightmare" to play against Hellbats. No. Did it feel lame when you set up for a game and then a medivac zoomed in and you realized you just wasted 10mins and the lection you got out of the game was that your builds weakness was hellbats, which you probably knew before. Yes.
But I can fairly understand when a Terran isn't happy with cutting his options, gets a small buff in return (banshee in that case) that doesn't really change a lot and then blizzard treats the game like their work is done for the next year.
And same goes for the widow mine/tank change. Widow mine change makes sense, cost for cost they are still good. They are still being used, nothing wrong with that. But it was again, unnecessary balancewise and hasn't yielded the results blizzard wanted. That's where if we would use scientific methods (which everyone should use in every situation of life) we would have to realize it's time to calibrate our variables further. But blizzard does not. They step in, have an idea towards the right direction and stop half way and it usually always just removes something from the game, but they don't have the patience or creativity or whatever to go the full way with what they want to introduce to the game.
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On January 02 2014 23:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 02 2014 23:15 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 23:10 kiLen wrote:On January 02 2014 23:05 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 02 2014 22:20 ZenithM wrote:No matter how you look at it, the current situation is really similar to the queen patch turn of events. The matchups were all close to 50% winrate, and Blizzard declared that the situation was too difficult to handle for zerg (or some shit like that) and they felt too pressured against hellions, and pulled the trigger on the worst patch in SC2 history (go to http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ if you want to check). And then did nothing to change that for months, leaving Terran with sub-45% winrates, except for the tip-top players (that are still today the only Terrans to be able to win something, aka Taeja and Innovation. Maru wasn't ready yet :D). I just hope that if the situation gets out of hand even more than it has now, Blizzard will react "a bit" faster than "it'll be fine next expansion pack, guys". TvZ still doesn't feel as hard right now as ZvT did pre hellbat nerf to be fair, though the oracle change was fucking retarded. lol. Hellbats were "that other build he could do" that wasn't as scary as straight up 3CC double ebays at that time. Did you actually play Z during that moment in time? You lost so many games to scouted hellbat drops since they were so strong they required an over reaction to deal with. Do you remember TvT, the 100 of workers killed everygame. There is no need to even talk about the hellbats since they were to strong. They were even to strong in TvT. Im talking TvZ only. They were quite handleable. You could scout them most of the time, and you could minimize losses most of the time with static defense and micro, even if you weren't on a roach build. I remember hellbat drops ON ROACHES which decimated them pretty fast. so? their combat relations against roaches haven't changed at all with the patch. The solution is and was to split and kite your roaches and targetfire the medivac with queens.
I just don't agree that they were no problem in TvZ aswell, Lings were unplayable vs them (that kinda changed) and even roaches were pretty lackluster except you massed a stupid amount which sets you back just as far
edit: i think a problem with sc2 balance is that there are starts that are "pretty easy" to execute, but extremely hard to stop with a "standard" build if you don't know fats enough what is coming. If these allins would be harder to execute the "better player" could win with a not 100% optimal build i think. But well that won't happen either
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On January 02 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 23:15 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 23:10 kiLen wrote:On January 02 2014 23:05 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 02 2014 22:20 ZenithM wrote:No matter how you look at it, the current situation is really similar to the queen patch turn of events. The matchups were all close to 50% winrate, and Blizzard declared that the situation was too difficult to handle for zerg (or some shit like that) and they felt too pressured against hellions, and pulled the trigger on the worst patch in SC2 history (go to http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ if you want to check). And then did nothing to change that for months, leaving Terran with sub-45% winrates, except for the tip-top players (that are still today the only Terrans to be able to win something, aka Taeja and Innovation. Maru wasn't ready yet :D). I just hope that if the situation gets out of hand even more than it has now, Blizzard will react "a bit" faster than "it'll be fine next expansion pack, guys". TvZ still doesn't feel as hard right now as ZvT did pre hellbat nerf to be fair, though the oracle change was fucking retarded. lol. Hellbats were "that other build he could do" that wasn't as scary as straight up 3CC double ebays at that time. Did you actually play Z during that moment in time? You lost so many games to scouted hellbat drops since they were so strong they required an over reaction to deal with. Do you remember TvT, the 100 of workers killed everygame. There is no need to even talk about the hellbats since they were to strong. They were even to strong in TvT. Im talking TvZ only. They were quite handleable. You could scout them most of the time, and you could minimize losses most of the time with static defense and micro, even if you weren't on a roach build. I remember hellbat drops ON ROACHES which decimated them pretty fast.
You definitly doesn't play the game at a good enough level to say that bs. The hellbat nerf didn't change a single shit about dropping them on roach, they deal the exact same amount of damage. It only affected harversters, marines, hellions, zealots and hydras.
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On January 02 2014 23:37 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 02 2014 23:15 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 23:10 kiLen wrote:On January 02 2014 23:05 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 02 2014 22:20 ZenithM wrote:No matter how you look at it, the current situation is really similar to the queen patch turn of events. The matchups were all close to 50% winrate, and Blizzard declared that the situation was too difficult to handle for zerg (or some shit like that) and they felt too pressured against hellions, and pulled the trigger on the worst patch in SC2 history (go to http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ if you want to check). And then did nothing to change that for months, leaving Terran with sub-45% winrates, except for the tip-top players (that are still today the only Terrans to be able to win something, aka Taeja and Innovation. Maru wasn't ready yet :D). I just hope that if the situation gets out of hand even more than it has now, Blizzard will react "a bit" faster than "it'll be fine next expansion pack, guys". TvZ still doesn't feel as hard right now as ZvT did pre hellbat nerf to be fair, though the oracle change was fucking retarded. lol. Hellbats were "that other build he could do" that wasn't as scary as straight up 3CC double ebays at that time. Did you actually play Z during that moment in time? You lost so many games to scouted hellbat drops since they were so strong they required an over reaction to deal with. Do you remember TvT, the 100 of workers killed everygame. There is no need to even talk about the hellbats since they were to strong. They were even to strong in TvT. Im talking TvZ only. They were quite handleable. You could scout them most of the time, and you could minimize losses most of the time with static defense and micro, even if you weren't on a roach build. I remember hellbat drops ON ROACHES which decimated them pretty fast. You definitly doesn't play the game at a good enough level to say that bs. The hellbat nerf didn't change a single shit about dropping them on roach, they deal the exact same amount of damage. It only affected harversters, marines, hellions, zealots and hydras.
I didn't say that it changed with the patch, did i? You forgot zerglings btw.
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On January 02 2014 23:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 23:37 Faust852 wrote:On January 02 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 02 2014 23:15 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 23:10 kiLen wrote:On January 02 2014 23:05 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 02 2014 22:20 ZenithM wrote:No matter how you look at it, the current situation is really similar to the queen patch turn of events. The matchups were all close to 50% winrate, and Blizzard declared that the situation was too difficult to handle for zerg (or some shit like that) and they felt too pressured against hellions, and pulled the trigger on the worst patch in SC2 history (go to http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ if you want to check). And then did nothing to change that for months, leaving Terran with sub-45% winrates, except for the tip-top players (that are still today the only Terrans to be able to win something, aka Taeja and Innovation. Maru wasn't ready yet :D). I just hope that if the situation gets out of hand even more than it has now, Blizzard will react "a bit" faster than "it'll be fine next expansion pack, guys". TvZ still doesn't feel as hard right now as ZvT did pre hellbat nerf to be fair, though the oracle change was fucking retarded. lol. Hellbats were "that other build he could do" that wasn't as scary as straight up 3CC double ebays at that time. Did you actually play Z during that moment in time? You lost so many games to scouted hellbat drops since they were so strong they required an over reaction to deal with. Do you remember TvT, the 100 of workers killed everygame. There is no need to even talk about the hellbats since they were to strong. They were even to strong in TvT. Im talking TvZ only. They were quite handleable. You could scout them most of the time, and you could minimize losses most of the time with static defense and micro, even if you weren't on a roach build. I remember hellbat drops ON ROACHES which decimated them pretty fast. You definitly doesn't play the game at a good enough level to say that bs. The hellbat nerf didn't change a single shit about dropping them on roach, they deal the exact same amount of damage. It only affected harversters, marines, hellions, zealots and hydras. I didn't say that it changed with the patch, did i? You forgot zerglings btw.
"I remember hellbat drops ON ROACHES which decimated them pretty fast."
Lol, what has changed now ?
Zergling were 2S prepatch, and are still 2S postpatch.
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The problem I had with hellbat drops was just how little margin of error was allowed before a marauder/hellbat push was undefendable. If you built 1spine and crawler in each base and a few roaches + 1/2 extra queens you only really needed to lose like 5 drones before that inevitable push spiraled out of control. Yes it was possible to defend, and yes if you picked off the hell bats and medivacs the three times they poked in with them you had an enourmous lead, but I still remember naruto talking about life building 3 spines and 3 crawlers and losing 3 drones being an acceptable amount of damage for 2 medivacs full of hellbats and a delayed 3cc + fantasies usual mineral float.
21 3cc may have been stronger but just the threat of hellbat drops caused damage, kind of like how I always have 6 marines by the 5 minute mark every single game because of how often I see a oracle float into my base ~5:20
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On January 02 2014 20:53 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 09:03 Big J wrote:On January 02 2014 06:14 TheDwf wrote:On January 02 2014 06:04 Bagi wrote:On January 02 2014 04:59 ZenithM wrote:
I like how Terran's problem is its beautiful design :'(
It's a good thing that top players are able to distinguish themselves from decent players, I wouldn't trade that off for a few % in winrates. It's hardly beautiful design when the race consists of massing their first combat units and a handful of other ones for support. One viable unit comp, no transitions, nothing but the same timing attack game after game. You might consider the race ideal if you thought this a game of mechanics and nothing else, but many of us would rather have more than that. The race needs to be much, much less reliant on the marine, no matter how much of a boner some people have for microing them. Thing is, mech issues in TvP/Z (more in TvP than in TvZ) are not only due to the fact mech is not very well built in SC2; it's also because the other side has so much hardcounter nonsense. Units like the Immortal, the Tempest, the Swarm host or the Viper are also, if not mostly, responsible for Terran being forced or "'strongly encouraged" to play bio. You can look at it as hardcounter nonsense, but you can also look at it as lack of Mech design/balancing. And with all respect, if amongst 5 Factory units and 4 Starport units you can't find proper ways to deal with stuff that isn't even existent in the ZvZ and TvZ bio metagame and situational in the PvZ metagame I tend to blame Mech for it and not the Blinding Cloud, even if I'd propose to change the cloud because it's the easy way and would allow for an interesting mechanic (Siege Mode) to shine. Similarily with Immortals and Archons. (don't consider SHs as dealbreakers for anything, especially after the last Mech buffs; and Tempests scenarios are way to exotic and unfigured when we assume a world in which Mech is not an autolose on the ground already). It's really much less the fault of the Archon that 1.5techpaths of Terran cannot break high HP opponents that aren't armored, nor the Immortals that nearly everything Mech is designed around high burst and basically nothing about constant fireing or reasonable AtG combat at a reasonable timing (like mutas or VRs). That's all on Mech and hardly on the other races for having such stuff. The "explosive damage" model rather than the "sustained" one is not a problem in TvT or TvZ, so why is it in TvP? Because Hardened Shields. The ability was reactively designed as a hardcounter, so of course it exploits the weaknesses of mech. By your logic, it's like saying Sieged Tanks are poorly designed because they can't move out of Blinding Clouds… Tempests are not an "exotic scenario" at all against mech, they're one of the staple answers and most people who tried mech TvP will tell you how little sense Tempests/Templars makes.
Sorry, didn't see the answer until now...
It's not just the hardended shields, there it is most prevalent because it is good against Tank, Thor, Hellbat and Seeker Missile. But there is far more to that, Mech struggles with every high HP unit to a good degree, because of the burst/splash mechanics of their units keeping dps low. It's extremly visible with Archons, Zealots and Ultras (especially on creep) as well, that Mech has trouble with everything that survives the first few shots. Thor dps is good. Apart from that it's 14dps for a single tank (~2marines), 9-15dps for a hellbat (~1-1.5 stimmed marines), 3-7dps for a hellion (0.5-1 marine).
Apart from the Thor, all the units are not built to combat long, which is a weakness of Mech.
About your blinding cloud-siege tank-"poorly designed"-comment: No, that's not what I'm saying. But bio can deal reasonably with storms/tanks/banelings being strong vs marines. Mech cannot deal with anything being strong vs tanks. Again, who is to blame? The race that has options against tanks, or the Terran techtree that falls apart the moment the opponent uses those options?
And I didn't say Tempest is an exotic scenario per se, I said that if Mech was viable on the ground, Tempest might not be so scary because you may even have resources and time to prepare for them. Aka: remove the most glaring issues with Mech vs Protoss like Archons and Immortals, and then let's see if it really isn't possible to walk over an opponent who relies on measily dps units against Thors that are sitting in his base not destroyed by the 3immortals he also built.
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EPT
