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On January 02 2014 12:41 ZenithM wrote:
Wait I must be doing something weird because for one, I have 6 marines at 5:50 (with reaper then reactor obviously, although it's probably identical with reactor then double reapers), and for 2, I'm far away from even starting my factory by the point I have 4 marines haha. I go e-bay and +1 first though.
Is it really necessary to have the factory up that fast?
Edit: I have 6 marines at 5:50 by not missing a beat indeed, if you miss production time for a few seconds you don't have them "in time". Although I do wonder. If 5:50 is the earliest proxy oracle timing (I don't know the timings very well, oracles seem to be able to pop up in my mineral line at completely random times haha), it should be visible on the reaper scout right? Like, he probably has to skip the MS core or something, he can't possibly build his stargate straight after the cybercore and still have a normal Protoss base look :D Yeah, he was definitely doing a weird opening. That's okay though, if people want to play weird, they can play weird. (:
It's interesting (to me at least) to note that even with his doing a weird build and complaining about dying to proxy oracle, he still could have been completely safe whether he successfully scouted or not.
I'm guessing his build might have been CC first into 2 rax with the first unit built being reaper, and a factory asap? Not sure how the timing on that would work out exactly, but even playing super greedy he could have defended a super-fast proxy Oracle.
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On January 02 2014 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 12:41 ZenithM wrote:
Wait I must be doing something weird because for one, I have 6 marines at 5:50 (with reaper then reactor obviously, although it's probably identical with reactor then double reapers), and for 2, I'm far away from even starting my factory by the point I have 4 marines haha. I go e-bay and +1 first though.
Is it really necessary to have the factory up that fast?
Edit: I have 6 marines at 5:50 by not missing a beat indeed, if you miss production time for a few seconds you don't have them "in time". Although I do wonder. If 5:50 is the earliest proxy oracle timing (I don't know the timings very well, oracles seem to be able to pop up in my mineral line at completely random times haha), it should be visible on the reaper scout right? Like, he probably has to skip the MS core or something, he can't possibly build his stargate straight after the cybercore and still have a normal Protoss base look :D Yeah, he was definitely doing a weird opening. That's okay though, if people want to play weird, they can play weird. (: It's interesting (to me at least) to note that even with his doing a weird build and complaining about dying to proxy oracle, he still could have been completely safe whether he successfully scouted or not. I'm guessing his build might have been CC first into 2 rax with the first unit built being reaper, and a factory asap? Not sure how the timing on that would work out exactly, but even playing super greedy he could have defended a super-fast proxy Oracle.
I went:
12 rax
Delay SCV
12 gas
Resume SCVs
Upgrade main
Make second barracks
Make fact
Make CC 5:10
Marines 5/6 popped out at 5:55 and 5:58 and died one by one.
Proxy oracle is a balance issue because the risk to reward is way off. I knew something was coming and was preparing some sort of defense (I even started a bunker behind my minerals when my reaper didn't find anything). But my 5th marine was 5 second late. Blizz needs to nerf proxy oracle somehow because it creates such meaningless build order losses.
//How do I upload a replay?
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United States7483 Posts
On January 02 2014 12:40 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 12:17 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 11:59 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
I want to hear someone defend 5:50 proxy oracle build in TvP. Someone here make the case.
I recently lost to this. I scouted his main with reaper, and ran the reaper around the map. I somehow didn't see the proxy.
I had 4 marines from my 2 barracks and was making a tech lab on my factory in case of a blink all in from a proxy I might not have seen.
Because I had 4 marines at 5:50 (or whatever random Oracle timing we are discussing) due to making that initial reaper, I lost all my marines and proceeded to lose the game.
Where is the skill there? Where is the actual gameplay? Any terran build that doesn't have 5 marines at 5:50 auto loses to a proxy that you might not scout, even if you make a unit specifically to scout it. Mine first, then tech lab. You failed to account for the fact that you were going to have a low marine count, when you had incomplete knowledge of your opponent's build. If you'd built the mine first, then the tech lab, you would have been able to fend off the Oracle (or at least buy time for more marines), while still being able to get a tank out in time for a blink all-in. I think what is so weird with SC2 here is that so early as 5 minutes (or whatever random Oracle timing we are discussing) into the game one of the races have the potenial to make a misstake that straight out loses him the game (Terran) and the other race cannot be killed by anything during the first 10 minutes. I dont think you should be able to lose vs one unit because you were 3 seconds slow on producing Marine 5/6. Just my five cents... I mean, there are no situations in the game when you can say to a Protoss "you scouted bad and started your Stalker 2 seconds to late so you just autodie, blame yourself".
It was like that for the entirety of WoL for protoss and is still like that in PvZ early game if you gate expand. One missed forcefield or skip a sentry, and bam, you lose.
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On January 02 2014 09:11 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 09:05 Gullis wrote:On January 02 2014 08:47 Destructicon wrote:
If there was some kind of middle ground where you could start skirmishing right off the bat, without it being all-in or crippling good, then the entire tempo of the game would look different and you'd have more of this sense of progression in tech and units as each player would need to juggle economy with defense or offense. I read someone suggesting that the gas income per base should be decreased (by mining it slower or just one gas per base). This could theoretically give players a mineral bank that could be spent on basic mineral only units which could promote some aggression and it gives players a reason to take more bases faster to increase the gas incoming. I would love more map experiments with only one gas bases or something like that just to see what happens. That isn't even completely necessary, you'd just need aggression to be a bit stronger in and of itself, but not strong enough it could be crippling and maybe also give people more reasons to be out on the map, then players would need to dedicate some resources to making army, and some to economy, and this would naturally slow down both the expanding and the teching. Say, if being out on the map meant you where safer, as in you could see all-ins coming sooner, without risk of losing all your units (because of speedlings, concussive shells, creep speed and faster stalkers then marines), then more players would be out on the map posturing. Posturing and moving around creates tension, resulting in the need for extra safety, that of course comes at the expense off economy or tech.
Why balance the MUs through tweaking units though when a change to map design could do the same thing? I think thats a great idea personally, I would love to see how games play out with only one gas per base. Then unit tweaks could go from there if its still necessary.
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On January 02 2014 14:38 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 12:41 ZenithM wrote:
Wait I must be doing something weird because for one, I have 6 marines at 5:50 (with reaper then reactor obviously, although it's probably identical with reactor then double reapers), and for 2, I'm far away from even starting my factory by the point I have 4 marines haha. I go e-bay and +1 first though.
Is it really necessary to have the factory up that fast?
Edit: I have 6 marines at 5:50 by not missing a beat indeed, if you miss production time for a few seconds you don't have them "in time". Although I do wonder. If 5:50 is the earliest proxy oracle timing (I don't know the timings very well, oracles seem to be able to pop up in my mineral line at completely random times haha), it should be visible on the reaper scout right? Like, he probably has to skip the MS core or something, he can't possibly build his stargate straight after the cybercore and still have a normal Protoss base look :D Yeah, he was definitely doing a weird opening. That's okay though, if people want to play weird, they can play weird. (: It's interesting (to me at least) to note that even with his doing a weird build and complaining about dying to proxy oracle, he still could have been completely safe whether he successfully scouted or not. I'm guessing his build might have been CC first into 2 rax with the first unit built being reaper, and a factory asap? Not sure how the timing on that would work out exactly, but even playing super greedy he could have defended a super-fast proxy Oracle. I went: 12 rax Delay SCV 12 gas Resume SCVs Upgrade main Make second barracks Make fact Make CC 5:10 Marines 5/6 popped out at 5:55 and 5:58 and died one by one. Proxy oracle is a balance issue because the risk to reward is way off. I knew something was coming and was preparing some sort of defense (I even started a bunker behind my minerals when my reaper didn't find anything). But my 5th marine was 5 second late. Blizz needs to nerf proxy oracle somehow because it creates such meaningless build order losses. //How do I upload a replay? Alrighty. Did you see my note about widow mine before tech lab? Would have bought you time to get those extra two marines out, tech lab still would have been on time for blink all-in. Simple tweak to defend that you can implement when you're not able to scout what's proxied.
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On January 02 2014 14:38 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 12:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 02 2014 12:17 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 11:59 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
I want to hear someone defend 5:50 proxy oracle build in TvP. Someone here make the case.
I recently lost to this. I scouted his main with reaper, and ran the reaper around the map. I somehow didn't see the proxy.
I had 4 marines from my 2 barracks and was making a tech lab on my factory in case of a blink all in from a proxy I might not have seen.
Because I had 4 marines at 5:50 (or whatever random Oracle timing we are discussing) due to making that initial reaper, I lost all my marines and proceeded to lose the game.
Where is the skill there? Where is the actual gameplay? Any terran build that doesn't have 5 marines at 5:50 auto loses to a proxy that you might not scout, even if you make a unit specifically to scout it. Mine first, then tech lab. You failed to account for the fact that you were going to have a low marine count, when you had incomplete knowledge of your opponent's build. If you'd built the mine first, then the tech lab, you would have been able to fend off the Oracle (or at least buy time for more marines), while still being able to get a tank out in time for a blink all-in. I think what is so weird with SC2 here is that so early as 5 minutes (or whatever random Oracle timing we are discussing) into the game one of the races have the potenial to make a misstake that straight out loses him the game (Terran) and the other race cannot be killed by anything during the first 10 minutes. I dont think you should be able to lose vs one unit because you were 3 seconds slow on producing Marine 5/6. Just my five cents... I mean, there are no situations in the game when you can say to a Protoss "you scouted bad and started your Stalker 2 seconds to late so you just autodie, blame yourself". It was like that for the entirety of WoL for protoss and is still like that in PvZ early game if you gate expand. One missed forcefield or skip a sentry, and bam, you lose.
Would people stop posting useless things like this..WOL is over man. And no matter how bad the balance might or might not have been back then, it will never excuse what is going on in the MUs right now. If you dont have anything worthwhile to post, just dont say anything.
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On January 02 2014 14:49 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 14:38 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On January 02 2014 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 12:41 ZenithM wrote:
Wait I must be doing something weird because for one, I have 6 marines at 5:50 (with reaper then reactor obviously, although it's probably identical with reactor then double reapers), and for 2, I'm far away from even starting my factory by the point I have 4 marines haha. I go e-bay and +1 first though.
Is it really necessary to have the factory up that fast?
Edit: I have 6 marines at 5:50 by not missing a beat indeed, if you miss production time for a few seconds you don't have them "in time". Although I do wonder. If 5:50 is the earliest proxy oracle timing (I don't know the timings very well, oracles seem to be able to pop up in my mineral line at completely random times haha), it should be visible on the reaper scout right? Like, he probably has to skip the MS core or something, he can't possibly build his stargate straight after the cybercore and still have a normal Protoss base look :D Yeah, he was definitely doing a weird opening. That's okay though, if people want to play weird, they can play weird. (: It's interesting (to me at least) to note that even with his doing a weird build and complaining about dying to proxy oracle, he still could have been completely safe whether he successfully scouted or not. I'm guessing his build might have been CC first into 2 rax with the first unit built being reaper, and a factory asap? Not sure how the timing on that would work out exactly, but even playing super greedy he could have defended a super-fast proxy Oracle. I went: 12 rax Delay SCV 12 gas Resume SCVs Upgrade main Make second barracks Make fact Make CC 5:10 Marines 5/6 popped out at 5:55 and 5:58 and died one by one. Proxy oracle is a balance issue because the risk to reward is way off. I knew something was coming and was preparing some sort of defense (I even started a bunker behind my minerals when my reaper didn't find anything). But my 5th marine was 5 second late. Blizz needs to nerf proxy oracle somehow because it creates such meaningless build order losses. //How do I upload a replay? Alrighty. Did you see my note about widow mine before tech lab? Would have bought you time to get those extra two marines out, tech lab still would have been on time for blink all-in. Simple tweak to defend that you can implement when you're not able to scout what's proxied.
Dont you think if there was a build that easy to do, that worked everytime, and that actually kept you safe, pro players would be doing it all the time? After all, many of them spend 8+ hours a day playing and studying this game (from which they make a living). The fact is that there is no way to play completely safe against everything Toss might be doing, and his problem is not unique to him. If you dont know exactly whats coming its going to be very hard to stop..
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United States7483 Posts
On January 02 2014 14:50 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 14:38 Whitewing wrote:On January 02 2014 12:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 02 2014 12:17 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 11:59 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
I want to hear someone defend 5:50 proxy oracle build in TvP. Someone here make the case.
I recently lost to this. I scouted his main with reaper, and ran the reaper around the map. I somehow didn't see the proxy.
I had 4 marines from my 2 barracks and was making a tech lab on my factory in case of a blink all in from a proxy I might not have seen.
Because I had 4 marines at 5:50 (or whatever random Oracle timing we are discussing) due to making that initial reaper, I lost all my marines and proceeded to lose the game.
Where is the skill there? Where is the actual gameplay? Any terran build that doesn't have 5 marines at 5:50 auto loses to a proxy that you might not scout, even if you make a unit specifically to scout it. Mine first, then tech lab. You failed to account for the fact that you were going to have a low marine count, when you had incomplete knowledge of your opponent's build. If you'd built the mine first, then the tech lab, you would have been able to fend off the Oracle (or at least buy time for more marines), while still being able to get a tank out in time for a blink all-in. I think what is so weird with SC2 here is that so early as 5 minutes (or whatever random Oracle timing we are discussing) into the game one of the races have the potenial to make a misstake that straight out loses him the game (Terran) and the other race cannot be killed by anything during the first 10 minutes. I dont think you should be able to lose vs one unit because you were 3 seconds slow on producing Marine 5/6. Just my five cents... I mean, there are no situations in the game when you can say to a Protoss "you scouted bad and started your Stalker 2 seconds to late so you just autodie, blame yourself". It was like that for the entirety of WoL for protoss and is still like that in PvZ early game if you gate expand. One missed forcefield or skip a sentry, and bam, you lose. Would people stop posting useless things like this..WOL is over man. And no matter how bad the balance might or might not have been back then, it will never excuse what is going on in the MUs right now. If you dont have anything worthwhile to post, just dont say anything.
It's still like that in PvP and PvZ in various ways, and IIRC, the 8/8/8 build for terran kills a fair amount of openers from all 3 races if they don't play safely early.
Matchups have requirements. Any terran build that doesn't include 5 marines by 5:50 is a gamble vs. toss. Any zerg build that doesn't include a spawning pool before 3rd hatch is a gamble. Builds can be greedy in different ways, but skimping on units is greedy. Protoss has restrictions like this too, as does zerg. It's not just terran. That's what it means to play a matchup: you need to plan accordingly for what your opponent might do. Protoss has to either all-in, open stargate, or risk being forced into a basetrade with a low probability of winning vs. zerg if he decides to make mutas at any point in time. Protoss needs to open templar first or go up to a stupid amount of colossus to not die to an scv pull: the fact that that scv pull exists kills the old 1 colossus into storm builds.
Certain strategies and builds are greedy or risky: that will always be true. If you don't want to get stupid losses, don't do those builds. Otherwise, accept the fact that you will sometimes lose in that way.
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On January 02 2014 14:54 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 14:49 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 14:38 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On January 02 2014 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 12:41 ZenithM wrote:
Wait I must be doing something weird because for one, I have 6 marines at 5:50 (with reaper then reactor obviously, although it's probably identical with reactor then double reapers), and for 2, I'm far away from even starting my factory by the point I have 4 marines haha. I go e-bay and +1 first though.
Is it really necessary to have the factory up that fast?
Edit: I have 6 marines at 5:50 by not missing a beat indeed, if you miss production time for a few seconds you don't have them "in time". Although I do wonder. If 5:50 is the earliest proxy oracle timing (I don't know the timings very well, oracles seem to be able to pop up in my mineral line at completely random times haha), it should be visible on the reaper scout right? Like, he probably has to skip the MS core or something, he can't possibly build his stargate straight after the cybercore and still have a normal Protoss base look :D Yeah, he was definitely doing a weird opening. That's okay though, if people want to play weird, they can play weird. (: It's interesting (to me at least) to note that even with his doing a weird build and complaining about dying to proxy oracle, he still could have been completely safe whether he successfully scouted or not. I'm guessing his build might have been CC first into 2 rax with the first unit built being reaper, and a factory asap? Not sure how the timing on that would work out exactly, but even playing super greedy he could have defended a super-fast proxy Oracle. I went: 12 rax Delay SCV 12 gas Resume SCVs Upgrade main Make second barracks Make fact Make CC 5:10 Marines 5/6 popped out at 5:55 and 5:58 and died one by one. Proxy oracle is a balance issue because the risk to reward is way off. I knew something was coming and was preparing some sort of defense (I even started a bunker behind my minerals when my reaper didn't find anything). But my 5th marine was 5 second late. Blizz needs to nerf proxy oracle somehow because it creates such meaningless build order losses. //How do I upload a replay? Alrighty. Did you see my note about widow mine before tech lab? Would have bought you time to get those extra two marines out, tech lab still would have been on time for blink all-in. Simple tweak to defend that you can implement when you're not able to scout what's proxied. Dont you think if there was a build that easy to do, that worked everytime, and that actually kept you safe, pro players would be doing it all the time? After all, many of them spend 8+ hours a day playing and studying this game (from which they make a living). The fact is that there is no way to play completely safe against everything Toss might be doing, and his problem is not unique to him. If you dont know exactly whats coming its going to be very hard to stop.. ...This has nothing to do with the fact that a simple tweak to his build would have given him a good chance to survive the proxy oracle build, possibly with an advantage.
The BO difficulty has less to do with actually stopping all-ins than it has to do with stopping them in a fashion that doesn't put you too far behind against misreads and fast transitions. Which is more a matter of scouting and responding.
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On January 02 2014 15:15 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 14:54 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 14:49 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 14:38 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On January 02 2014 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 12:41 ZenithM wrote:
Wait I must be doing something weird because for one, I have 6 marines at 5:50 (with reaper then reactor obviously, although it's probably identical with reactor then double reapers), and for 2, I'm far away from even starting my factory by the point I have 4 marines haha. I go e-bay and +1 first though.
Is it really necessary to have the factory up that fast?
Edit: I have 6 marines at 5:50 by not missing a beat indeed, if you miss production time for a few seconds you don't have them "in time". Although I do wonder. If 5:50 is the earliest proxy oracle timing (I don't know the timings very well, oracles seem to be able to pop up in my mineral line at completely random times haha), it should be visible on the reaper scout right? Like, he probably has to skip the MS core or something, he can't possibly build his stargate straight after the cybercore and still have a normal Protoss base look :D Yeah, he was definitely doing a weird opening. That's okay though, if people want to play weird, they can play weird. (: It's interesting (to me at least) to note that even with his doing a weird build and complaining about dying to proxy oracle, he still could have been completely safe whether he successfully scouted or not. I'm guessing his build might have been CC first into 2 rax with the first unit built being reaper, and a factory asap? Not sure how the timing on that would work out exactly, but even playing super greedy he could have defended a super-fast proxy Oracle. I went: 12 rax Delay SCV 12 gas Resume SCVs Upgrade main Make second barracks Make fact Make CC 5:10 Marines 5/6 popped out at 5:55 and 5:58 and died one by one. Proxy oracle is a balance issue because the risk to reward is way off. I knew something was coming and was preparing some sort of defense (I even started a bunker behind my minerals when my reaper didn't find anything). But my 5th marine was 5 second late. Blizz needs to nerf proxy oracle somehow because it creates such meaningless build order losses. //How do I upload a replay? Alrighty. Did you see my note about widow mine before tech lab? Would have bought you time to get those extra two marines out, tech lab still would have been on time for blink all-in. Simple tweak to defend that you can implement when you're not able to scout what's proxied. Dont you think if there was a build that easy to do, that worked everytime, and that actually kept you safe, pro players would be doing it all the time? After all, many of them spend 8+ hours a day playing and studying this game (from which they make a living). The fact is that there is no way to play completely safe against everything Toss might be doing, and his problem is not unique to him. If you dont know exactly whats coming its going to be very hard to stop.. ...This has nothing to do with the fact that a simple tweak to his build would have given him a good chance to survive the proxy oracle build, possibly with an advantage. The BO difficulty has less to do with actually stopping all-ins than it has to do with stopping them in a fashion that doesn't put you too far behind against misreads and fast transitions. Which is more a matter of scouting and responding.
Theres a reason pros almost universally do the rax-expand-2 rax build, and that is because that is the build that gives a terran the best ability to survive. Widow mines are a gimmicky defense at best.
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On January 02 2014 15:12 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 14:50 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 14:38 Whitewing wrote:On January 02 2014 12:40 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 02 2014 12:17 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 11:59 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
I want to hear someone defend 5:50 proxy oracle build in TvP. Someone here make the case.
I recently lost to this. I scouted his main with reaper, and ran the reaper around the map. I somehow didn't see the proxy.
I had 4 marines from my 2 barracks and was making a tech lab on my factory in case of a blink all in from a proxy I might not have seen.
Because I had 4 marines at 5:50 (or whatever random Oracle timing we are discussing) due to making that initial reaper, I lost all my marines and proceeded to lose the game.
Where is the skill there? Where is the actual gameplay? Any terran build that doesn't have 5 marines at 5:50 auto loses to a proxy that you might not scout, even if you make a unit specifically to scout it. Mine first, then tech lab. You failed to account for the fact that you were going to have a low marine count, when you had incomplete knowledge of your opponent's build. If you'd built the mine first, then the tech lab, you would have been able to fend off the Oracle (or at least buy time for more marines), while still being able to get a tank out in time for a blink all-in. I think what is so weird with SC2 here is that so early as 5 minutes (or whatever random Oracle timing we are discussing) into the game one of the races have the potenial to make a misstake that straight out loses him the game (Terran) and the other race cannot be killed by anything during the first 10 minutes. I dont think you should be able to lose vs one unit because you were 3 seconds slow on producing Marine 5/6. Just my five cents... I mean, there are no situations in the game when you can say to a Protoss "you scouted bad and started your Stalker 2 seconds to late so you just autodie, blame yourself". It was like that for the entirety of WoL for protoss and is still like that in PvZ early game if you gate expand. One missed forcefield or skip a sentry, and bam, you lose. Would people stop posting useless things like this..WOL is over man. And no matter how bad the balance might or might not have been back then, it will never excuse what is going on in the MUs right now. If you dont have anything worthwhile to post, just dont say anything. It's still like that in PvP and PvZ in various ways, and IIRC, the 8/8/8 build for terran kills a fair amount of openers from all 3 races if they don't play safely early. Matchups have requirements. Any terran build that doesn't include 5 marines by 5:50 is a gamble vs. toss. Any zerg build that doesn't include a spawning pool before 3rd hatch is a gamble. Builds can be greedy in different ways, but skimping on units is greedy. Protoss has restrictions like this too, as does zerg. It's not just terran. That's what it means to play a matchup: you need to plan accordingly for what your opponent might do. Protoss has to either all-in, open stargate, or risk being forced into a basetrade with a low probability of winning vs. zerg if he decides to make mutas at any point in time. Protoss needs to open templar first or go up to a stupid amount of colossus to not die to an scv pull: the fact that that scv pull exists kills the old 1 colossus into storm builds. Certain strategies and builds are greedy or risky: that will always be true. If you don't want to get stupid losses, don't do those builds. Otherwise, accept the fact that you will sometimes lose in that way.
Why did you quote me in this? Nothing you said had anything to do with what I said. And it also has nothing to do with the conversation that was going on before.
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On January 02 2014 16:49 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 15:15 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 14:54 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 14:49 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 14:38 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On January 02 2014 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 12:41 ZenithM wrote:
Wait I must be doing something weird because for one, I have 6 marines at 5:50 (with reaper then reactor obviously, although it's probably identical with reactor then double reapers), and for 2, I'm far away from even starting my factory by the point I have 4 marines haha. I go e-bay and +1 first though.
Is it really necessary to have the factory up that fast?
Edit: I have 6 marines at 5:50 by not missing a beat indeed, if you miss production time for a few seconds you don't have them "in time". Although I do wonder. If 5:50 is the earliest proxy oracle timing (I don't know the timings very well, oracles seem to be able to pop up in my mineral line at completely random times haha), it should be visible on the reaper scout right? Like, he probably has to skip the MS core or something, he can't possibly build his stargate straight after the cybercore and still have a normal Protoss base look :D Yeah, he was definitely doing a weird opening. That's okay though, if people want to play weird, they can play weird. (: It's interesting (to me at least) to note that even with his doing a weird build and complaining about dying to proxy oracle, he still could have been completely safe whether he successfully scouted or not. I'm guessing his build might have been CC first into 2 rax with the first unit built being reaper, and a factory asap? Not sure how the timing on that would work out exactly, but even playing super greedy he could have defended a super-fast proxy Oracle. I went: 12 rax Delay SCV 12 gas Resume SCVs Upgrade main Make second barracks Make fact Make CC 5:10 Marines 5/6 popped out at 5:55 and 5:58 and died one by one. Proxy oracle is a balance issue because the risk to reward is way off. I knew something was coming and was preparing some sort of defense (I even started a bunker behind my minerals when my reaper didn't find anything). But my 5th marine was 5 second late. Blizz needs to nerf proxy oracle somehow because it creates such meaningless build order losses. //How do I upload a replay? Alrighty. Did you see my note about widow mine before tech lab? Would have bought you time to get those extra two marines out, tech lab still would have been on time for blink all-in. Simple tweak to defend that you can implement when you're not able to scout what's proxied. Dont you think if there was a build that easy to do, that worked everytime, and that actually kept you safe, pro players would be doing it all the time? After all, many of them spend 8+ hours a day playing and studying this game (from which they make a living). The fact is that there is no way to play completely safe against everything Toss might be doing, and his problem is not unique to him. If you dont know exactly whats coming its going to be very hard to stop.. ...This has nothing to do with the fact that a simple tweak to his build would have given him a good chance to survive the proxy oracle build, possibly with an advantage. The BO difficulty has less to do with actually stopping all-ins than it has to do with stopping them in a fashion that doesn't put you too far behind against misreads and fast transitions. Which is more a matter of scouting and responding. Theres a reason pros almost universally do the rax-expand-2 rax build, and that is because that is the build that gives a terran the best ability to survive. Widow mines are a gimmicky defense at best. That's because pros universally do some form of full-bio, and 2 raxes of production isn't enough vs. a bust. Widow mines as your main form of defense are gimmicky, yes, but getting out a widow mine to product your low marine count vs. the possibility of an oracle is not.
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On January 02 2014 17:02 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 16:49 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 15:15 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 14:54 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 14:49 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 14:38 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On January 02 2014 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 12:41 ZenithM wrote:
Wait I must be doing something weird because for one, I have 6 marines at 5:50 (with reaper then reactor obviously, although it's probably identical with reactor then double reapers), and for 2, I'm far away from even starting my factory by the point I have 4 marines haha. I go e-bay and +1 first though.
Is it really necessary to have the factory up that fast?
Edit: I have 6 marines at 5:50 by not missing a beat indeed, if you miss production time for a few seconds you don't have them "in time". Although I do wonder. If 5:50 is the earliest proxy oracle timing (I don't know the timings very well, oracles seem to be able to pop up in my mineral line at completely random times haha), it should be visible on the reaper scout right? Like, he probably has to skip the MS core or something, he can't possibly build his stargate straight after the cybercore and still have a normal Protoss base look :D Yeah, he was definitely doing a weird opening. That's okay though, if people want to play weird, they can play weird. (: It's interesting (to me at least) to note that even with his doing a weird build and complaining about dying to proxy oracle, he still could have been completely safe whether he successfully scouted or not. I'm guessing his build might have been CC first into 2 rax with the first unit built being reaper, and a factory asap? Not sure how the timing on that would work out exactly, but even playing super greedy he could have defended a super-fast proxy Oracle. I went: 12 rax Delay SCV 12 gas Resume SCVs Upgrade main Make second barracks Make fact Make CC 5:10 Marines 5/6 popped out at 5:55 and 5:58 and died one by one. Proxy oracle is a balance issue because the risk to reward is way off. I knew something was coming and was preparing some sort of defense (I even started a bunker behind my minerals when my reaper didn't find anything). But my 5th marine was 5 second late. Blizz needs to nerf proxy oracle somehow because it creates such meaningless build order losses. //How do I upload a replay? Alrighty. Did you see my note about widow mine before tech lab? Would have bought you time to get those extra two marines out, tech lab still would have been on time for blink all-in. Simple tweak to defend that you can implement when you're not able to scout what's proxied. Dont you think if there was a build that easy to do, that worked everytime, and that actually kept you safe, pro players would be doing it all the time? After all, many of them spend 8+ hours a day playing and studying this game (from which they make a living). The fact is that there is no way to play completely safe against everything Toss might be doing, and his problem is not unique to him. If you dont know exactly whats coming its going to be very hard to stop.. ...This has nothing to do with the fact that a simple tweak to his build would have given him a good chance to survive the proxy oracle build, possibly with an advantage. The BO difficulty has less to do with actually stopping all-ins than it has to do with stopping them in a fashion that doesn't put you too far behind against misreads and fast transitions. Which is more a matter of scouting and responding. Theres a reason pros almost universally do the rax-expand-2 rax build, and that is because that is the build that gives a terran the best ability to survive. Widow mines are a gimmicky defense at best. That's because pros universally do some form of full-bio, and 2 raxes of production isn't enough vs. a bust. Widow mines as your main form of defense are gimmicky, yes, but getting out a widow mine to product your low marine count vs. the possibility of an oracle is not.
My point is that he should not have a factory out that fast to begin with. If he does find himself in that position, then sure, go ahead and make a mine I guess. But what happens when the oracle roasts 5 workers before it goes to the area where the mine is? Or what happens if the Toss isnt being aggressive at all, and now you're just as far behind because you wasted money on a mine and tech lab when you should have been getting your rax count up and pumping bio? His build is flawed to begin with. Terran just cant bring any aggression to Toss before ~10 minutes, because 1) It probably not going to do any real damage anyways, and 2) You leave yourself in far too weak of a position to defend against the wide variety of aggressive Toss builds.
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On January 02 2014 18:32 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 17:02 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 16:49 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 15:15 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 14:54 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 14:49 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 14:38 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On January 02 2014 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 12:41 ZenithM wrote:
Wait I must be doing something weird because for one, I have 6 marines at 5:50 (with reaper then reactor obviously, although it's probably identical with reactor then double reapers), and for 2, I'm far away from even starting my factory by the point I have 4 marines haha. I go e-bay and +1 first though.
Is it really necessary to have the factory up that fast?
Edit: I have 6 marines at 5:50 by not missing a beat indeed, if you miss production time for a few seconds you don't have them "in time". Although I do wonder. If 5:50 is the earliest proxy oracle timing (I don't know the timings very well, oracles seem to be able to pop up in my mineral line at completely random times haha), it should be visible on the reaper scout right? Like, he probably has to skip the MS core or something, he can't possibly build his stargate straight after the cybercore and still have a normal Protoss base look :D Yeah, he was definitely doing a weird opening. That's okay though, if people want to play weird, they can play weird. (: It's interesting (to me at least) to note that even with his doing a weird build and complaining about dying to proxy oracle, he still could have been completely safe whether he successfully scouted or not. I'm guessing his build might have been CC first into 2 rax with the first unit built being reaper, and a factory asap? Not sure how the timing on that would work out exactly, but even playing super greedy he could have defended a super-fast proxy Oracle. I went: 12 rax Delay SCV 12 gas Resume SCVs Upgrade main Make second barracks Make fact Make CC 5:10 Marines 5/6 popped out at 5:55 and 5:58 and died one by one. Proxy oracle is a balance issue because the risk to reward is way off. I knew something was coming and was preparing some sort of defense (I even started a bunker behind my minerals when my reaper didn't find anything). But my 5th marine was 5 second late. Blizz needs to nerf proxy oracle somehow because it creates such meaningless build order losses. //How do I upload a replay? Alrighty. Did you see my note about widow mine before tech lab? Would have bought you time to get those extra two marines out, tech lab still would have been on time for blink all-in. Simple tweak to defend that you can implement when you're not able to scout what's proxied. Dont you think if there was a build that easy to do, that worked everytime, and that actually kept you safe, pro players would be doing it all the time? After all, many of them spend 8+ hours a day playing and studying this game (from which they make a living). The fact is that there is no way to play completely safe against everything Toss might be doing, and his problem is not unique to him. If you dont know exactly whats coming its going to be very hard to stop.. ...This has nothing to do with the fact that a simple tweak to his build would have given him a good chance to survive the proxy oracle build, possibly with an advantage. The BO difficulty has less to do with actually stopping all-ins than it has to do with stopping them in a fashion that doesn't put you too far behind against misreads and fast transitions. Which is more a matter of scouting and responding. Theres a reason pros almost universally do the rax-expand-2 rax build, and that is because that is the build that gives a terran the best ability to survive. Widow mines are a gimmicky defense at best. That's because pros universally do some form of full-bio, and 2 raxes of production isn't enough vs. a bust. Widow mines as your main form of defense are gimmicky, yes, but getting out a widow mine to product your low marine count vs. the possibility of an oracle is not. My point is that he should not have a factory out that fast to begin with. If he does find himself in that position, then sure, go ahead and make a mine I guess. But what happens when the oracle roasts 5 workers before it goes to the area where the mine is? Or what happens if the Toss isnt being aggressive at all, and now you're just as far behind because you wasted money on a mine and tech lab when you should have been getting your rax count up and pumping bio? His build is flawed to begin with. Terran just cant bring any aggression to Toss before ~10 minutes, because 1) It probably not going to do any real damage anyways, and 2) You leave yourself in far too weak of a position to defend against the wide variety of aggressive Toss builds. My point is that he isn't a pro, so if he's going to insist on a fast tech play, he can still do so moderately safely. The ladder experience is far more forgiving towards inefficiencies than the pro scene.
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On January 02 2014 18:40 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 18:32 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 17:02 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 16:49 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 15:15 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 14:54 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 14:49 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 14:38 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On January 02 2014 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 12:41 ZenithM wrote:
Wait I must be doing something weird because for one, I have 6 marines at 5:50 (with reaper then reactor obviously, although it's probably identical with reactor then double reapers), and for 2, I'm far away from even starting my factory by the point I have 4 marines haha. I go e-bay and +1 first though.
Is it really necessary to have the factory up that fast?
Edit: I have 6 marines at 5:50 by not missing a beat indeed, if you miss production time for a few seconds you don't have them "in time". Although I do wonder. If 5:50 is the earliest proxy oracle timing (I don't know the timings very well, oracles seem to be able to pop up in my mineral line at completely random times haha), it should be visible on the reaper scout right? Like, he probably has to skip the MS core or something, he can't possibly build his stargate straight after the cybercore and still have a normal Protoss base look :D Yeah, he was definitely doing a weird opening. That's okay though, if people want to play weird, they can play weird. (: It's interesting (to me at least) to note that even with his doing a weird build and complaining about dying to proxy oracle, he still could have been completely safe whether he successfully scouted or not. I'm guessing his build might have been CC first into 2 rax with the first unit built being reaper, and a factory asap? Not sure how the timing on that would work out exactly, but even playing super greedy he could have defended a super-fast proxy Oracle. I went: 12 rax Delay SCV 12 gas Resume SCVs Upgrade main Make second barracks Make fact Make CC 5:10 Marines 5/6 popped out at 5:55 and 5:58 and died one by one. Proxy oracle is a balance issue because the risk to reward is way off. I knew something was coming and was preparing some sort of defense (I even started a bunker behind my minerals when my reaper didn't find anything). But my 5th marine was 5 second late. Blizz needs to nerf proxy oracle somehow because it creates such meaningless build order losses. //How do I upload a replay? Alrighty. Did you see my note about widow mine before tech lab? Would have bought you time to get those extra two marines out, tech lab still would have been on time for blink all-in. Simple tweak to defend that you can implement when you're not able to scout what's proxied. Dont you think if there was a build that easy to do, that worked everytime, and that actually kept you safe, pro players would be doing it all the time? After all, many of them spend 8+ hours a day playing and studying this game (from which they make a living). The fact is that there is no way to play completely safe against everything Toss might be doing, and his problem is not unique to him. If you dont know exactly whats coming its going to be very hard to stop.. ...This has nothing to do with the fact that a simple tweak to his build would have given him a good chance to survive the proxy oracle build, possibly with an advantage. The BO difficulty has less to do with actually stopping all-ins than it has to do with stopping them in a fashion that doesn't put you too far behind against misreads and fast transitions. Which is more a matter of scouting and responding. Theres a reason pros almost universally do the rax-expand-2 rax build, and that is because that is the build that gives a terran the best ability to survive. Widow mines are a gimmicky defense at best. That's because pros universally do some form of full-bio, and 2 raxes of production isn't enough vs. a bust. Widow mines as your main form of defense are gimmicky, yes, but getting out a widow mine to product your low marine count vs. the possibility of an oracle is not. My point is that he should not have a factory out that fast to begin with. If he does find himself in that position, then sure, go ahead and make a mine I guess. But what happens when the oracle roasts 5 workers before it goes to the area where the mine is? Or what happens if the Toss isnt being aggressive at all, and now you're just as far behind because you wasted money on a mine and tech lab when you should have been getting your rax count up and pumping bio? His build is flawed to begin with. Terran just cant bring any aggression to Toss before ~10 minutes, because 1) It probably not going to do any real damage anyways, and 2) You leave yourself in far too weak of a position to defend against the wide variety of aggressive Toss builds. My point is that he isn't a pro, so if he's going to insist on a fast tech play, he can still do so moderately safely. The ladder experience is far more forgiving towards inefficiencies than the pro scene.
The midgame is even more important to "casuals" than pros in TvP. I would say I win 95% of my games straight up in the midgame or because ive done huge damage/denied third for a long time. Im top diamond and I can count on one hand the times I have won a late game TvP when on equal economy. This means getting out those medicavs asap is so incredibly important.
So while you need to get those medivacs as fast as you possibly can to not miss the only window where you might have an advantage, you also need to make sure you have all the defense you need to not straight up die to whatever aggressive build the P might be doing.
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Or less TvTs. Even if there are same amount of Terrans in a tournament, the amount of TvTs (or in general T games) will be lower since the Terrans are not as likely to meet as often, due to falling out a little eariler and thereby providing less games.
The winrates in WoL TvZ didn't go to 50-50 eventually. They went to 45% and then they stayed there. (in the GSL Terran had 1-2 good seasons, but eventually the winrates also rather dropped than went to 50%).
Notice I use the term "eventually" as in the long-run. It simply takes time before all of the "sub-par" terrans aren't invitied/qualified for tournmanents anymore. But if we now have 20% terran playeers, 30% zergs and 50% protoss's, and terran still have less than 50% w/r, then the amount of terran players left will eventually get even lower if no balance patches are added). Then we will have the top-top terran players playing against sub-zergs and sub-sub protoss players. W/R will then be roughly 50-50 and we will have ignorant TL posters arguing that the game is balanced.
However, luckily for sanity, that's probably not going to happen as Blizzard probably are gonna implement a balance-patch relatively soon.
The winrates in WoL TvZ didn't go to 50-50 eventually. They went to 45% and then they stayed there. (in the GSL Terran had 1-2 good seasons, but eventually the winrates also rather dropped than went to 50%).
That makes a lot of sense though for two reasons;
1) The difference between midrun results and long-term results
2) Zerg's getting increasingly better at abusing Broodlord/Infestor. When one race has the better lategame composition, the race will typically perform better over time even if no balance patches are added into the game as they get better at getting to that stage in the game. But it would still have gotten to 50-50 eventually, but then we would probably have seen only Flash and Innovation playing in GSL against 30 patch-zergs.
I don't see the winrates going to 50% eventually. The overall Terran winrate has been <50% since August, and that's why we see less Terran players currently (e.g. in Proleague).
That's also exactly what I had expected. Let's at the state of Sc2 back in August. We had zergs starting to figure out TvZ and we had terrans relying extremely much on scv-pulls vs protoss in a matchup that otherwise was considered unwinable for terran. Even pre-mine nerf we saw situations where 30+ Mutalisks simply seemed quite OP (Innovation vs Curious is a quite good example thereof), and I think it was quite that over time zergs would be better at abusing Mutalisks, thus w/r would have gone up regardless of Mine-Nerf. When the Mine-nerf hit, the effect was obviously further strenghtened.
For TvP, it seemed that protoss just learned to beat the Scv-pull and the balance W/R we are seeing now aren't expected at all.
So what a W/R above 55% is telling us, is that protoss's and zergs are performing better against terrans, but not that there neccesarily is a balance problem. There is only a balance problem if the sub-top protoss/zergs are being matched up against top-terran players and still winnng +50% of games.
E.g. Low Zerg winrates at the beginning of WoL, low amount of Zerg proplayers in highlevel tournaments.
That's due to the difference between the long-run and short/midrun as I discussed above. W/R would have gone back to 50-50 as fewer zerg players would be inviited/qualified to tournmanets/eligible for competitive play if these conditions were met;
- There were no balance patches for a decent amount of time (let's say for 6 months or so).
- Zergs didn't figure out the cheesy protoss/terran styles we saw back then
However, as both of these conditions weren't met, it resulted in both the amount of active zerg players and W/R increasing. Again, this is perfectly what anyone would have expected.
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On January 02 2014 18:40 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 18:32 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 17:02 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 16:49 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 15:15 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 14:54 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 02 2014 14:49 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 14:38 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On January 02 2014 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On January 02 2014 12:41 ZenithM wrote:
Wait I must be doing something weird because for one, I have 6 marines at 5:50 (with reaper then reactor obviously, although it's probably identical with reactor then double reapers), and for 2, I'm far away from even starting my factory by the point I have 4 marines haha. I go e-bay and +1 first though.
Is it really necessary to have the factory up that fast?
Edit: I have 6 marines at 5:50 by not missing a beat indeed, if you miss production time for a few seconds you don't have them "in time". Although I do wonder. If 5:50 is the earliest proxy oracle timing (I don't know the timings very well, oracles seem to be able to pop up in my mineral line at completely random times haha), it should be visible on the reaper scout right? Like, he probably has to skip the MS core or something, he can't possibly build his stargate straight after the cybercore and still have a normal Protoss base look :D Yeah, he was definitely doing a weird opening. That's okay though, if people want to play weird, they can play weird. (: It's interesting (to me at least) to note that even with his doing a weird build and complaining about dying to proxy oracle, he still could have been completely safe whether he successfully scouted or not. I'm guessing his build might have been CC first into 2 rax with the first unit built being reaper, and a factory asap? Not sure how the timing on that would work out exactly, but even playing super greedy he could have defended a super-fast proxy Oracle. I went: 12 rax Delay SCV 12 gas Resume SCVs Upgrade main Make second barracks Make fact Make CC 5:10 Marines 5/6 popped out at 5:55 and 5:58 and died one by one. Proxy oracle is a balance issue because the risk to reward is way off. I knew something was coming and was preparing some sort of defense (I even started a bunker behind my minerals when my reaper didn't find anything). But my 5th marine was 5 second late. Blizz needs to nerf proxy oracle somehow because it creates such meaningless build order losses. //How do I upload a replay? Alrighty. Did you see my note about widow mine before tech lab? Would have bought you time to get those extra two marines out, tech lab still would have been on time for blink all-in. Simple tweak to defend that you can implement when you're not able to scout what's proxied. Dont you think if there was a build that easy to do, that worked everytime, and that actually kept you safe, pro players would be doing it all the time? After all, many of them spend 8+ hours a day playing and studying this game (from which they make a living). The fact is that there is no way to play completely safe against everything Toss might be doing, and his problem is not unique to him. If you dont know exactly whats coming its going to be very hard to stop.. ...This has nothing to do with the fact that a simple tweak to his build would have given him a good chance to survive the proxy oracle build, possibly with an advantage. The BO difficulty has less to do with actually stopping all-ins than it has to do with stopping them in a fashion that doesn't put you too far behind against misreads and fast transitions. Which is more a matter of scouting and responding. Theres a reason pros almost universally do the rax-expand-2 rax build, and that is because that is the build that gives a terran the best ability to survive. Widow mines are a gimmicky defense at best. That's because pros universally do some form of full-bio, and 2 raxes of production isn't enough vs. a bust. Widow mines as your main form of defense are gimmicky, yes, but getting out a widow mine to product your low marine count vs. the possibility of an oracle is not. My point is that he should not have a factory out that fast to begin with. If he does find himself in that position, then sure, go ahead and make a mine I guess. But what happens when the oracle roasts 5 workers before it goes to the area where the mine is? Or what happens if the Toss isnt being aggressive at all, and now you're just as far behind because you wasted money on a mine and tech lab when you should have been getting your rax count up and pumping bio? His build is flawed to begin with. Terran just cant bring any aggression to Toss before ~10 minutes, because 1) It probably not going to do any real damage anyways, and 2) You leave yourself in far too weak of a position to defend against the wide variety of aggressive Toss builds. My point is that he isn't a pro, so if he's going to insist on a fast tech play, he can still do so moderately safely. The ladder experience is far more forgiving towards inefficiencies than the pro scene.
Dude youre just not getting it..by not playing the safe 3 rax his chances of winning at all plummet. Fast tech is a bad idea at any level, be it pro or casual (maybe in bronze it works bc everyone there is retarded). Too many uncontrollable things have to go right for it to have any chance at success, and playing the luck of the draw is going to lead to a miserable ladder experience. You have to go for bio no matter what as a Terran, so delaying getting there for some kind of aggressive play that will most likely be totally negated by the MSC is a pretty terrible idea no matter how you want to look at it.
In fact, aggressive plays are most likely only going to be successfully executed by the top tier pro Terran players. One example that comes to mind is the hellion drop that Taeja was using at the beginning of December. On Demuslim's stream, he and Select were talking about how Taeja can make a build like that look so easy, when they couldnt copy it to save their lives.
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4713 Posts
On January 02 2014 14:39 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 09:11 Destructicon wrote:On January 02 2014 09:05 Gullis wrote:On January 02 2014 08:47 Destructicon wrote:
If there was some kind of middle ground where you could start skirmishing right off the bat, without it being all-in or crippling good, then the entire tempo of the game would look different and you'd have more of this sense of progression in tech and units as each player would need to juggle economy with defense or offense. I read someone suggesting that the gas income per base should be decreased (by mining it slower or just one gas per base). This could theoretically give players a mineral bank that could be spent on basic mineral only units which could promote some aggression and it gives players a reason to take more bases faster to increase the gas incoming. I would love more map experiments with only one gas bases or something like that just to see what happens. That isn't even completely necessary, you'd just need aggression to be a bit stronger in and of itself, but not strong enough it could be crippling and maybe also give people more reasons to be out on the map, then players would need to dedicate some resources to making army, and some to economy, and this would naturally slow down both the expanding and the teching. Say, if being out on the map meant you where safer, as in you could see all-ins coming sooner, without risk of losing all your units (because of speedlings, concussive shells, creep speed and faster stalkers then marines), then more players would be out on the map posturing. Posturing and moving around creates tension, resulting in the need for extra safety, that of course comes at the expense off economy or tech. Why balance the MUs through tweaking units though when a change to map design could do the same thing? I think thats a great idea personally, I would love to see how games play out with only one gas per base. Then unit tweaks could go from there if its still necessary.
The reason why the game should first and foremost be balanced around unit stats and design, and not maps, is because, certain design issues can have great repercussions on how you build maps as well.
The best example of this is the FF. Every single map in the entire ladder pool, and from now until the end of SC2 will forever have to be made with FF in mind. The map can't be too open because then FF would suck and Protoss as a race would start to under perform, however you can't go in the opposite direction either, if you make a map with too many chokes then Protoss will dominate like mad because of all the possibilities to FF.
Zerg as a race is also intrinsically tied to the architecture of the map. Up until SH where introduced the zerg lived or died on the basis of how open or chokey a map was. To many chokes and the army of mass units with low range would never get the surrounds, the flanks and the conceives to trade efficiently, too open however and it would dominate. That is still the case, but now it just means that zerg is forced to go SH on every map with a chokey architecture, which leads to a lot of boring and predictable games.
Don't take me wrong, I'd love it if the game was balanced more trough maps now, and I'd love it if we had a far greater variety of maps. However in practice this is simply impossible, the limiting design of the game doesn't allow map making enough freedom to balance things.
First and foremost the design of the game needs to be fixed.
Edit: @ Big J, I agree with out that I the game shouldn't be all about only early game units, it should always be early game units as the core army but with a lot of support cast, that becomes more and more necessary as the game progresses.
And I believe that whoever proposes nerfing the marine is going about things the wrong way. The marine is how a unit should be designed, you get the most value out of it the better you are at microing them. Its just that, given the current context of the game the marine is the most efficient of units. Most zerg compositions are so mobile that it makes mech very bad, protoss compositions are not only very mobile relative to mech but they are also strong enough to trade in a direct fight.
Bio, marine tank, bio tank and mech with sky transitions only work in the mirror TvT, because it is the most finely tuned.
I agree with you it shouldn't be all about bio, I'd love it if terran could efficiently go marine tank again, then add in thors and ravens, but in the current context of the game that just isn't possible. What I propose and we may disagree here, is to redesign the other races in such a way that they no longer flat out hard counter anything but pure bio, but they don't flat out die to the support units like tanks, thors and ravens.
Now, if you nerf marines or bio in general it just weakens the race, yes you can and need to probably buff other units, but there is no guarantee you'll have the result you desire, and its always better to build on upon something that already has been proven to work.
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On January 02 2014 04:06 ETisME wrote:
We were the ones to tell them stop with overpatching.
Now it is no word no action patching attitude.
Well I think they overpatched with the mine nerf and oracle buff.
So someconsistency would be good.
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On January 02 2014 19:47 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 04:06 ETisME wrote:
We were the ones to tell them stop with overpatching.
Now it is no word no action patching attitude. Well I think they overpatched with the mine nerf and oracle buff. So someconsistency would be good.
People complained about the frequency of patching, not the level of changes.
Wait a few months for metagame to stable before patching etcetc
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EPT
