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Well, for me the top includes at most the 5 best of each race, haha :D
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 12:21 ZenithM wrote:
Well, for me the top includes at most the 5 best of each race, haha :D
By that definition, Terran is currently doing extremely well.
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Too many variables involved in how frequent TvT appears which you are disregarding. TvT's might simply be occuring less frequently because terrans have been playing against more zergs and protoss players in the early games. Yes: there are fewer terran players than there are protoss and zerg players, but there have been more terran players which consistently place well in tournaments than there have zerg or protoss players. Either the argument is that terran pros are just plain better players in general and have always been and will be (which was the argument every terran made during GOMTvT), or you might want to consider that there isn't a balance problem that's significant, and that there are other variables and factors at work.
Look i'm going to just be straight with you..... I don't want Terrans to win every tournament or dominate the scene just as much as you do.... as a matter of fact even though I was a Terran Player in BW I <3 Bisu and his domination as well as Stork to death I also love JD and am glad he is resurfacing in sc2 its like a nerd dream come true.... BUT What I want is for Protoss to be less of an I have the big guns Run and Hide and hopefully Someone can put a Piece of chewing gum between the bullet and hammer to stop the bullet from firing  Taeja seems to be a quick one and always finds a way to put that chewing gum there within the short period of time that its open! ( ok this is a crazy metaphor but it makes sense if you think about it LOL)
Basically I want every match up to be unique yet more of like a Ninja Fighting a Samurai with Swords Numchuku and throwing stars where you have an exchange of blows and such in depth strategy and micro is needed to perform what was almost art .... Instead of it being a ninja having a sword and an advanced alien race dodging the only sword swipe before quickly vaporizing him with a Ray gun LOL
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 12:24 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +Too many variables involved in how frequent TvT appears which you are disregarding. TvT's might simply be occuring less frequently because terrans have been playing against more zergs and protoss players in the early games. Yes: there are fewer terran players than there are protoss and zerg players, but there have been more terran players which consistently place well in tournaments than there have zerg or protoss players. Either the argument is that terran pros are just plain better players in general and have always been and will be (which was the argument every terran made during GOMTvT), or you might want to consider that there isn't a balance problem that's significant, and that there are other variables and factors at work. Look i'm going to just be straight with you..... I don't want Terrans to win every tournament or dominate the scene just as much as you do.... as a matter of fact even though I was a Terran Player in BW I <3 Bisu and his domination as well as Stork to death I also love JD and am glad he is resurfacing in sc2 its like a nerd dream come true.... BUT What I want is for Protoss to be less of an I have the big guns Run and Hide and hopefully Someone can put a Piece of chewing gum between the bullet and hammer to stop the bullet from firing Taeja seems to be a quick one and always finds a way to put that chewing gum there within the short period of time that its open! ( ok this is a crazy metaphor but it makes sense if you think about it LOL) Basically I want every match up to be unique yet more of like a Ninja Fighting a Samurai with Swords Numchuku and throwing stars where you have an exchange of blows and such in depth strategy and micro is needed to perform what was almost art .... Instead of it being a ninja having a sword and an advanced alien race dodging the only sword swipe before quickly vaporizing him with a Ray gun LOL
I've been a strong proponent of Protoss needing a complete redesign for a long time now. The mothership core is a horrible idea: the race was so broken design wise they had to give them a single overpowered unit and limit them to one of them so protoss would stop dying horrifically in the early game. I don't like the protoss design at all right now, even though I play that race. However, design flaws and balance flaws are not the same thing. You are arguing for a design revamp: I agree with that desire. Regardless of design flaws, the game does not currently appear to be significantly imbalanced in favor of protoss. This month, PvT at the pro level was a little better than a 51% rate for protoss: that's quite balanced overall. PvZ went in favor of zerg. This month, terrans got their asses handed to them by zergs way more than by protoss players. There is some amount of expected swing in the data each month, and this is well within those expectations, so there's no indication of imbalance or major problems. Essentially, we're in the margin of error still.
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On January 03 2014 12:24 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 12:21 ZenithM wrote:
Well, for me the top includes at most the 5 best of each race, haha :D By that definition, Terran is currently doing extremely well.
That's my definition for top, but as I told you, I don't necessarily agree with you about balancing around those 15 players, so no, actually, Terran is not doing very good.
I see the positive aspects of balancing around the very top, but it's just a weird policy. And the thing is, I don't think it's very far from what Blizzard actually does. Like when they nerfed ghosts after Mvp showed 1 or 2 games of mass sniping.
Edit: Of course, it's still acceptable (although playing TvP on the ladder for a random nobody is frustrating, that I can deal with :D) at pro level, but what's worrying me is that the last time Blizzard patched the most balanced state of the game they had since release, they nearly burrowed the game under infestor, spinecrawlers and broodlings.
I hope that in the case Terrans start to REALLY disappear, they do something faster than just waiting for the next expansion.
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On January 03 2014 11:24 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 10:39 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:[quote] Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. According to what statistics we have currently, PvT is about 1-2% protoss favored at the moment. If your win rate is 22%, the problem is you: not your race. Jaedong also had a really long ass time where his ZvP was absurdly awful, and he lost almost every game he played. He didn't bitch about Protoss being overpowered, he practiced his ass off and learned the matchup, and now he's crushing protosses left and right. Your attitude is what's getting in the way of you getting better. Chill out. On January 03 2014 07:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:33 Ben... wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:[quote] Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands. As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS. Well yeah, mass ghost viking is the ideal end game composition for Terran TvP, but its just so expensive and takes so long to build that its hard to ever get there safely. There was a really good/long game between HerO and someone (Polt maybe?) on Daybreak back in WOL that showed how strong viking ghost is. Achieving it is just virtually impossible, especially in HOTS. And again I dont want the game balanced around non-pros; I never said that. I just don't want it balanced around the very, very best pros that Terran has to offer. Taeja should handily beat nearly every Toss player on the planet with the exception of going relatively even with the top two or three Toss players in the world. He should not be going .500 with average Koreans though because he himself is not average. There are numerous players out there that are better than Taeja, I specifically chose Taeja as an example before because he isn't the best terran in the world. Taeja is freaking spectacular, but there's a reason he isn't winning GSL's like Maru or Innovation. So you seem to be confusing your own argument now..if the game is not balanced at our level why should my TvP % be any different? And furthermore if it should still be at 50%, how is it that I can get an amazing TvT % and a positive TvZ percentage and still have such a horrendous rate vs Toss? It clearly doesnt stem from my ability to play the race, or I would not be doing so well vs the other two races, it has something to do specifically with Toss.. And if youre refering to winrates of the pros in that second paragraph then your argument is inherently false anyways, because im talking about my non gm winrate, and those two percentages have absolutely nothing in common *according to you). Now getting to the pro level though, your Jaedong example is beyond worthless. He had no room to complain, because him being so bad vs Toss was largely unique to him, not to Zergs in general. This situation is completely different for Terrans because every Terran is struggling, not just some random Terran I have decided to pick out of a hat. Lmao, Taeja isnt winning GSLs because he plays in America genius. But he is one of the best players in the world regardless. And Innovation hasnt been a great player for a while now, no matter how many times casters say he is..just look at his results since the hellbat nerf if you dont believe that. And why do you think winrates matter on their own? There are so many ways in which the data can be skewed to make the races appear balanced when in reality they arent. You have to combine winrates with other statistics, such as the number of Terrans competing, the number of Terrans in GM, and the level of players Terrans have faced in tournaments they have done well. If you actually do a little research you will find that simple winrates have no meaning as a statistic on their own. And would you quit using argumentum ad populum incorrectly..I was just going to let it slip because I knew what you were trying to say, but seriously, you just sound like an ass now. I'm not using it incorrectly; you keep saying I'm arguing against a large number of people, and that I must be wrong because there are so many people with that opinion. That's by definition argumentum ad populum. Here, since you are having trouble remembering what you wrote, I'll quote it for you: Show nested quote +Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? I'm not the one who sounds like an ass, and I'm not the only one to call you out on it. Only the pro winrates are relevant, but even at a lower level 22% is way below average for terran vs. protoss. So no, the Jaedong example isn't irrelevant, what percentage of terrans do you actually think manage to only win 1 in every 5 PvTs on ladder? As for how you could have a good TvT and TvZ: it's the same way that most people have a single weak matchup. Different matchups require different skills and knowledge. For a long time my PvT was atrocious, way below my PvZ and PvP, I didn't whine that Terran was IMBA just because I was bad at it. Most terrans have a better than 22% win rate vs. toss. Taeja switched to America because it was easier for him to win there. I'm a statistician, I'm well aware of what statistics are and aren't.
Lol way to cherry pick a quote..you must be a tea-party republican arent you? If you would have read what was around that, you would have noticed that I was referring to the opinions of pro terrans when I was saying "everyone else". The very people who you say balance should be constructed around. America is widely regarded as the second hardest WCS region too btw..and Taeja knew that coming in (he didnt play in America in season 1). You must be an out of work statistician then lmao, because if you think the highest levels of play are balanced when 50% of gm is 1 race, you must not be very good at your job. And if you were having problems with PvT that was clearly your problem, but TvP is a problem for all Terrans (including your coveted top pro players). Get over your own ego man, the problem is clear as day. Im sorry your race is probably gonna get nerfed, but its not unjust or undue. When you have top pro players, both Toss and Terran saying that Toss is favored in the MU, I really think theyre right and know what theyre talking about. Im not just making shit up here; go back and read the links and quotes that people have posted to what pros have said. You have no factual leg to stand on, so if youre just going to sit here and bend stats to suit your own purpose, then Im done with you. Your either ignorant, delusional, or blind if you cant see the problem..
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I've been a strong proponent of Protoss needing a complete redesign for a long time now. The mothership core is a horrible idea: the race was so broken design wise they had to give them a single overpowered unit and limit them to one of them so protoss would stop dying horrifically in the early game. I don't like the protoss design at all right now, even though I play that race. However, design flaws and balance flaws are not the same thing. You are arguing for a design revamp: I agree with that desire. Regardless of design flaws, the game does not currently appear to be significantly imbalanced in favor of protoss. This month, PvT at the pro level was a little better than a 51% rate for protoss: that's quite balanced overall. PvZ went in favor of zerg. This month, terrans got their asses handed to them by zergs way more than by protoss players. There is some amount of expected swing in the data each month, and this is well within those expectations, so there's no indication of imbalance or major problems. Essentially, we're in the margin of error still
How long is your Tunnel? I'm not calling for a complete redesign i'm calling for options..... Right now I think the Change to MSC is going to do alot but its still a Very Very strong ability one that outright stops most aggressions without ANY attempt to give protoss a Micro option to fight the aggression instead..... its simple F click.... You see what i'm saying? It's not a COMPLETE redesign i'm calling for more of Micro options so that its not so easy for all protoss to use the same unit with the same effectiveness and yet fix the Early game problem.....so it would generate massive skill level difference between protoss players and we would see a More defined High P Player instead of what we have now...... kinda what david kim thought he was doing with the oracle but actually just did the reverse and made it worse..... I mean who is Boss toss Today MC? SoS? Dear? Parting? ..... seems to change everyday simply because the Micro options or the Micro Utility graph or Lambda effect for micro isn't there.....
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On January 03 2014 12:11 ZenithM wrote:
Balancing around the top players of each race doesn't make much sense, Whitewing. Among a handful of players there are bound to be differences of skill, you can't assume that the best Terran is as skilled as the best Protoss.
In an ideal world, the game would be balanced at all levels, leaving the top players really dominate because they're better, not because their race's proxies are better.
If you know what I'm talking about.
Edit: To be more constructive, I think it's good to balance around bottom of Code A (maybe bottom of Code S) and Proleague mid-range players. Those players are still way above foreigner level, while still far from the top. These days there are hardly anymore "new" Terran players, and it seems only leaders of the race are able to do something with it.
This is exactly my point too. Balancing for the very top players of a race is just as bad as balancing for bronze and silver league..either way the majority of the pro scene suffers. If one player is better than another, no matter what race he is using, he should be allowed to dominate because he is just that freaking good. Personally I think something like the top 25% of Code A and the Bottom 75% of Code S should be the focus of balance.
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I don't agree that there are no differences between professional Protoss players :D
For one, you can't expect one player to dominate his race at all times. If there are 5 or even 10 players to share the crown, that's still fine I would say. What's more worrying is that the more "random" Protoss can beat the very top Terrans quite handily. I mean, how many times did Innovation lose to the likes of Elfi or duckdeok or I don't know who else. I don't mean disrespect, but I can't seem to find examples of Lucifron beating Rain or Dear.
And that's normal, because Rain, Dear, PartinG and sOs are fucking amazing players.
Edit: Of course, that's no proof or even statistics, but if you really want to balance the game around top players, there won't be much statistics anyway, so you might want Innovation to at least be able to beat foreigner Protoss level without looking like a clueless scrub :D
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-remove nexus cannon
-+1 range upgrade for stalker
-mutalisk regen is an upgrade
-lurkers added
-fungal damage slightly buffed
-widow mines back to how they were
-Oracle speed lowered, higher acceleration
-Thor removed, added Goliath
-Swarm hosts are visible while burrowed, slighly higher movement speed.
What would you guys think about these changes? I put no numbers, I just want to know about these concepts.
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On January 03 2014 12:44 ZenithM wrote:
I don't agree that there are no differences between professional Protoss players :D
For one, you can't expect one player to dominate his race at all times. If there are 5 or even 10 players to share the crown, that's still fine I would say. What's more worrying is that the more "random" Protoss can beat the very top Terrans quite handily. I mean, how many times did Innovation lose to the likes of Elfi or duckdeok or I don't know who else. I don't mean disrespect, but I can't seem to find examples of Lucifron beating Rain or Dear.
And that's normal, because Rain, Dear, PartinG and sOs are fucking amazing players.
There should just be a like button so I dont have to quote you all the time lol, but yeah I totally agree with this. I would say that there is very little difference between pro Toss players, but thats really just semantics. But yeah, low level Toss players should not be able to regularly beat top korean pros like they do. Especially when it never happens the other way around.
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-remove nexus cannon (love obviously)
-+1 range upgrade for stalker (scary but worth a try)
-mutalisk regen is an upgrade (like)
-lurkers added (idk, banelings seem to do fine, and speedvacs would largely make them useless i feel)
-fungal damage slightly buffed (very wary)
-widow mines back to how they were (yes pls, or change the 1.5-1.75 splash to 20 damage)
-Oracle speed lowered, higher acceleration (or remove it from the game..only slightly joking)
-Thor removed, added Goliath (could be cool)
-Swarm hosts are visible while burrowed, slighly higher movement speed. (I dont think them being invisible is a problem)
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Maybe reapers in bunker must have splash grenades after bunker upgrade research
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On January 03 2014 12:08 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 12:02 Faust852 wrote:On January 03 2014 11:50 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 11:47 Faust852 wrote:On January 03 2014 11:45 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 11:39 Faust852 wrote:On January 03 2014 11:24 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 10:39 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:
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Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have?
So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. According to what statistics we have currently, PvT is about 1-2% protoss favored at the moment. If your win rate is 22%, the problem is you: not your race. Jaedong also had a really long ass time where his ZvP was absurdly awful, and he lost almost every game he played. He didn't bitch about Protoss being overpowered, he practiced his ass off and learned the matchup, and now he's crushing protosses left and right. Your attitude is what's getting in the way of you getting better. Chill out. On January 03 2014 07:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
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Well yeah, mass ghost viking is the ideal end game composition for Terran TvP, but its just so expensive and takes so long to build that its hard to ever get there safely. There was a really good/long game between HerO and someone (Polt maybe?) on Daybreak back in WOL that showed how strong viking ghost is. Achieving it is just virtually impossible, especially in HOTS.
And again I dont want the game balanced around non-pros; I never said that. I just don't want it balanced around the very, very best pros that Terran has to offer. Taeja should handily beat nearly every Toss player on the planet with the exception of going relatively even with the top two or three Toss players in the world. He should not be going .500 with average Koreans though because he himself is not average. There are numerous players out there that are better than Taeja, I specifically chose Taeja as an example before because he isn't the best terran in the world. Taeja is freaking spectacular, but there's a reason he isn't winning GSL's like Maru or Innovation. So you seem to be confusing your own argument now..if the game is not balanced at our level why should my TvP % be any different? And furthermore if it should still be at 50%, how is it that I can get an amazing TvT % and a positive TvZ percentage and still have such a horrendous rate vs Toss? It clearly doesnt stem from my ability to play the race, or I would not be doing so well vs the other two races, it has something to do specifically with Toss.. And if youre refering to winrates of the pros in that second paragraph then your argument is inherently false anyways, because im talking about my non gm winrate, and those two percentages have absolutely nothing in common *according to you). Now getting to the pro level though, your Jaedong example is beyond worthless. He had no room to complain, because him being so bad vs Toss was largely unique to him, not to Zergs in general. This situation is completely different for Terrans because every Terran is struggling, not just some random Terran I have decided to pick out of a hat. Lmao, Taeja isnt winning GSLs because he plays in America genius. But he is one of the best players in the world regardless. And Innovation hasnt been a great player for a while now, no matter how many times casters say he is..just look at his results since the hellbat nerf if you dont believe that. And why do you think winrates matter on their own? There are so many ways in which the data can be skewed to make the races appear balanced when in reality they arent. You have to combine winrates with other statistics, such as the number of Terrans competing, the number of Terrans in GM, and the level of players Terrans have faced in tournaments they have done well. If you actually do a little research you will find that simple winrates have no meaning as a statistic on their own. And would you quit using argumentum ad populum incorrectly..I was just going to let it slip because I knew what you were trying to say, but seriously, you just sound like an ass now. I'm not using it incorrectly; you keep saying I'm arguing against a large number of people, and that I must be wrong because there are so many people with that opinion. That's by definition argumentum ad populum. Here, since you are having trouble remembering what you wrote, I'll quote it for you: Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? I'm not the one who sounds like an ass, and I'm not the only one to call you out on it. Only the pro winrates are relevant, but even at a lower level 22% is way below average for terran vs. protoss. So no, the Jaedong example isn't irrelevant, what percentage of terrans do you actually think manage to only win 1 in every 5 PvTs on ladder? As for how you could have a good TvT and TvZ: it's the same way that most people have a single weak matchup. Different matchups require different skills and knowledge. For a long time my PvT was atrocious, way below my PvZ and PvP, I didn't whine that Terran was IMBA just because I was bad at it. Most terrans have a better than 22% win rate vs. toss. Taeja switched to America because it was easier for him to win there. I'm a statistician, I'm well aware of what statistics are and aren't. Dear statistician, explain me why there are like 70% less terrans at high level ? And half the protoss number in GM league. I do believe there have already been discussions covering this topic, but ladder representation is not indicative of game balance at the professional level, which is the only level where it is relevant. To answer your facetious question, the answer is that terran requires more mechanical skill than playing protoss or zerg, which takes more practice and effort to learn than the skills zerg or protoss require. Protoss is more about intuition, reading, preparation and build execution. Zerg mostly just needs to know when to drone and when to make units, and not to miss injects. Terran has the highest base mechanics requirement, meaning that it requires more raw mechanical skill to play well. Note that mechanical skill is not the only skill that exists in the game, nor is it the only representation of difficulty. Learning how to scout and not die to all-ins as zerg is not easy or trivial and requires a lot of skill, and learning how to properly place forcefields and have excellent awareness of your front and bases to not die to things like ling runbys or drops is not easy or trivial either. It just so happens that the single hardest thing to learn is mechanics: most people have no idea at all how to even go about developing mechanics or what good habits are. Ergonomics are relevant here: there's a reason flash pulls out the ruler every time he steps into the booth. None of this is indicative of a race's potential to win or lose games, merely the skills necessary to properly play that race. Terran's skill requirement happens to be one that's rarer and harder to develop, but that was the same as it was in brood war too. You didn't answer my question : since there is only pro games that count, explain me why there is so few terran pro games played these days. Proleague has been historically very protoss heavy, even during periods of protoss weakness (even during brood war), so we can disregard that. As for others, I'm not sure I agree there are terrans missing? Even during periods where terran was obscene like the GOMTvT era, there weren't many foreign terrans around. Korean terrans are still doing quite well overall. For a statistician, you don't really look at statistics heh. I'm talking about the number of terrans playing at the highest level. You can look at TvT on aligulac for exemple : list 101 : 121 PvP, 30 TvT, 125 ZvZ list 100 : 249 PvP, 101 TvT, 293 ZvZ list 99 : 237 PvP, 106 TvT, 353 ZvZ list 98 : 238 PvP, 125 TvT, 240 ZvZ list 97 : 405 PvP, 175 TvT, 445 ZvZ now, much earlier into the year : list 85 : 144 PvP, 109 TvT, 147 ZvZ list 84 : 269 PvP, 168 TvT, 290 ZvZ list 83 : 196 PvP, 168 TvT, 298 ZvZ See, much more TvT back in the days. Now, look at early 2012, when the game was considered at his best balance wise : list 52 : 295 PvP, 283 TvT, 297 ZvZ list 51 : 159 PvP, 187 TvT, 236 ZvZ list 50 : 124 PvP, 126 TvT, 204 ZvZ list 49 : 106 PvP, 121 TvT, 197 ZvZ I hope you see my point now. Too many variables involved in how frequent TvT appears which you are disregarding. TvT's might simply be occuring less frequently because terrans have been playing against more zergs and protoss players in the early games. Yes: there are fewer terran players than there are protoss and zerg players, but there have been more terran players which consistently place well in tournaments than there have zerg or protoss players. Either the argument is that terran pros are just plain better players in general and have always been and will be (which was the argument every terran made during GOMTvT), or you might want to consider that there isn't a balance problem that's significant, and that there are other variables and factors at work.
Your argumentation is quite hilariuos to be honest
Let me summarize few of your last posts
- too many Protoss in Proleague - normal situation always been like that
- few foreign Terran - no problem always benn like that
- too many Protoss in GM - laddedr does not matter
- GomTvT - this actual is problem and sign of imbalance
Do i get this right?
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I vote for following direction of terran changes
1. BC buff: maybe +1 range, maybe a buff of a certain damage kind, maybe buff of yamoto cannon
2. Bring tank siege mode upgrade back, buff tanks a bit more then
3. Rework the mine to be a strong single target only maybe, as tanks fill in the splash dmg dealer role
4. Rework/Remove thors completely and replace it with something better. As they wont get removed before next expansion I would like them to have a strong anti air special ability and a change in splash damage so that they can hit always a bunch of mutas (also with magic box) but dont hit all of them (when mutas are stacked) at the same time too. So maybe 2-4 Rockets that always hit would do the job better instead of their current AA.
Protoss needs some more difficult tasks to execute. Warpgate/Gateway issue could be used to fix some stuff.
In general I would reduce race special ability effects. Something like: Larva Inject -1 larva, Mule less lifetime, Chronoboost 50 instead of 25 cost and 50% increased effect (which is a 25% nerf in the end and forces the protoss to decide more wisely on chronoboosts).
Something like this :p
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Ummmm.... Biased much? LOL Larva Inject 1 larva that is a HARSH HARSH Nerf if you said 3 instead of what i think is 5 now that would be understandable but 1? hahahahahaha someone has a problem in tvz hehe
BC don't need to be buffed Siege mode needs to be the way it is because siege tanks are expensive in themselves.... the Mine and Thor rework are something i can agree with
Your argumentation is quite hilariuos to be honest
Let me summarize few of your last posts
- too many Protoss in Proleague - normal situation always been like that
- few foreign Terran - no problem always benn like that
- too many Protoss in GM - laddedr does not matter
- GomTvT - this actual is problem and sign of imbalance
Do i get this right?
+1 Exactly what i was trying to say to him but don't worry he is a Statistician we should just take his word for it... even though statistics are blatantly saying he is lying through his teeth LOL. No Terrans in GM? well Taeja wins a tournament so you just have to play better you baddy.... Protoss isn't better its just easier to use and all Terrans are baddies including Pros that complain about the match up.... Dear and Parting don't know what they are talking about when they say Protoss is favored in the match up because I'm a statistician i look at the statistics MEHHH
Ok sorry i had to do that but the PO Nerf i feel is warranted its not the direction they should go for they need to rework it so that there are serious Micro possibilities for Protoss and not Anti micro possiblities to defend such as Forcefield and Timewarp
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On January 03 2014 23:17 Pirfiktshon wrote:Ummmm.... Biased much? LOL Larva Inject 1 larva that is a HARSH HARSH Nerf if you said 3 instead of what i think is 5 now that would be understandable but 1? hahahahahaha someone has a problem in tvz hehe BC don't need to be buffed Siege mode needs to be the way it is because siege tanks are expensive in themselves.... the Mine and Thor rework are something i can agree with Show nested quote +Your argumentation is quite hilariuos to be honest
Let me summarize few of your last posts
- too many Protoss in Proleague - normal situation always been like that
- few foreign Terran - no problem always benn like that
- too many Protoss in GM - laddedr does not matter
- GomTvT - this actual is problem and sign of imbalance
Do i get this right? +1 Exactly what i was trying to say to him but don't worry he is a Statistician we should just take his word for it... even though statistics are blatantly saying he is lying through his teeth LOL. No Terrans in GM? well Taeja wins a tournament so you just have to play better you baddy.... Protoss isn't better its just easier to use and all Terrans are baddies including Pros that complain about the match up.... Dear and Parting don't know what they are talking about when they say Protoss is favored in the match up because I'm a statistician i look at the statistics MEHHH Ok sorry i had to do that but the PO Nerf i feel is warranted its not the direction they should go for they need to rework it so that there are serious Micro possibilities for Protoss and not Anti micro possiblities to defend such as Forcefield and Timewarp
I wonder what is so hard to understand about larva -1. Right now it is 4, maybe 3 extra larva would be enaugh from inject. I really dont post here in order to get buffs for my own race. Hard to believe but I seriously think about how to make the game better in one or the other way.
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Larva inject -1 would have to be done in a huge patch that shakes up many things anyways or a new expansion. It destroys 3years of built up knowledge about early game build orders and may result in certain builds (like 14p/15h; 6-10pool; 10pool banelings) becoming completely unviable, since you rely on the power of your first queen to make up for not going hatch first. Not to mention that it would hugely change the accumulation of workers for zerg in the early game, which changes everything. e.g. with perfect macro from hatch first-->pool-->2queen ZvT standard opening, you lack up to 10drones at 8mins (~5injects per queen and hatch between 4:45, the time your queens pop/start injecting and 8:00).
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Yea I don't think inject is a real problem in any match up to behonest.... I think zerg is seriously at a perfect state in this part of the game... They have a strong early game if they decide they can be greedy as crap if they want or go all in with some potent attacks and they have a really really good Late game as well as just good straight up timing attacks and along with each of those they have different styles you can use according to your own preference and map Zerg is at such a good state right now.
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On January 04 2014 00:34 Big J wrote:
Larva inject -1 would have to be done in a huge patch that shakes up many things anyways or a new expansion. It destroys 3years of built up knowledge about early game build orders and may result in certain builds (like 14p/15h; 6-10pool; 10pool banelings) becoming completely unviable, since you rely on the power of your first queen to make up for not going hatch first. Not to mention that it would hugely change the accumulation of workers for zerg in the early game, which changes everything. e.g. with perfect macro from hatch first-->pool-->2queen ZvT standard opening, you lack up to 10drones at 8mins (~5injects per queen and hatch between 4:45, the time your queens pop/start injecting and 8:00).
I know it has huge impacts on zerg. But the same is true for the other races when you rework warpgate/gateway mechanics and connect it to strategical decisions of the player and also transforming terran into a more mech based race. Also there are work arounds for the early game, such as making each queen spawn one larva onto the hatchery it spawned from after spawn, etc.
I think the game needs a reduction of mechanics that overpower opponents easily after they are set behind after a sinlge mistake or such. This could help to make comebacks easier. Also it allows other balance changes to be considered that seem totally not viable in the current state.
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