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Well, they're not, they're waiting for feedback:
The next step for Terran mech
We believe we can push mech usage more as well. Some options we’re looking at here are: higher armored damage for siege tanks, easier access to EMP when going mech (such as building the energy upgrade into the unit), buffing mech air, and so on. However, this is the area in which we’re the least certain. Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated.
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I for one hope they buff thor move speed. Make it 4 imo
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 10:02 bo1b wrote:
I for one hope they buff thor move speed. Make it 4 imo
Not really necessary IMO for a speed buff (and a movement speed of 4 would be completely outrageous), but it would be nice to see it's model size reduced a little, and its turning radius improved. In pro games it's common to see players use medivacs to carry thors with speed boost to make them more mobile, that's always really cool to watch.
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On January 03 2014 10:10 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 10:02 bo1b wrote:
I for one hope they buff thor move speed. Make it 4 imo Not really necessary IMO for a speed buff (and a movement speed of 4 would be completely outrageous), but it would be nice to see it's model size reduced a little, and its turning radius improved. In pro games it's common to see players use medivacs to carry thors with speed boost to make them more mobile, that's always really cool to watch.
You're right, it needs to be 5 move speed with cliff walk so they can harass better.
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On January 03 2014 06:41 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball  Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. HTs are still better than ghosts, whatever you might say against it.
Translation: LALLALLALALLALALLALA
Faster, longer unit kill (snipe range 10), emp 9.75, base attack damage, comes with full energy for emp no wait. 2.25 vs 1.85 move speed.
But yeah the HT is sooo much better.
Insanity.
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On January 03 2014 10:19 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 06:41 Faust852 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. HTs are still better than ghosts, whatever you might say against it. Translation: LALLALLALALLALALLALA Faster, longer unit kill (snipe range 10), emp 9.75, base attack damage, comes with full energy for emp no wait. 2.25 vs 1.85 move speed. But yeah the HT is sooo much better. Insanity.
Damn, WoL infestors were worse than ghosts too then! I don't disagree nor agree with your point but the way you are tying to expose it is flat out retarded.
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On January 03 2014 10:19 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 06:41 Faust852 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. HTs are still better than ghosts, whatever you might say against it. Translation: LALLALLALALLALALLALA Faster, longer unit kill (snipe range 10), emp 9.75, base attack damage, comes with full energy for emp no wait. 2.25 vs 1.85 move speed. But yeah the HT is sooo much better. Insanity.
I'm ready to trade your HTs against my Ghosts. It'll be my pleasure to storm your zealots while you're EMPing my marauders.
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On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. According to what statistics we have currently, PvT is about 1-2% protoss favored at the moment. If your win rate is 22%, the problem is you: not your race. Jaedong also had a really long ass time where his ZvP was absurdly awful, and he lost almost every game he played. He didn't bitch about Protoss being overpowered, he practiced his ass off and learned the matchup, and now he's crushing protosses left and right. Your attitude is what's getting in the way of you getting better. Chill out. Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 07:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:33 Ben... wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands. As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS. Well yeah, mass ghost viking is the ideal end game composition for Terran TvP, but its just so expensive and takes so long to build that its hard to ever get there safely. There was a really good/long game between HerO and someone (Polt maybe?) on Daybreak back in WOL that showed how strong viking ghost is. Achieving it is just virtually impossible, especially in HOTS. And again I dont want the game balanced around non-pros; I never said that. I just don't want it balanced around the very, very best pros that Terran has to offer. Taeja should handily beat nearly every Toss player on the planet with the exception of going relatively even with the top two or three Toss players in the world. He should not be going .500 with average Koreans though because he himself is not average. There are numerous players out there that are better than Taeja, I specifically chose Taeja as an example before because he isn't the best terran in the world. Taeja is freaking spectacular, but there's a reason he isn't winning GSL's like Maru or Innovation.
So you seem to be confusing your own argument now..if the game is not balanced at our level why should my TvP % be any different? And furthermore if it should still be at 50%, how is it that I can get an amazing TvT % and a positive TvZ percentage and still have such a horrendous rate vs Toss? It clearly doesnt stem from my ability to play the race, or I would not be doing so well vs the other two races, it has something to do specifically with Toss.. And if youre refering to winrates of the pros in that second paragraph then your argument is inherently false anyways, because im talking about my non gm winrate, and those two percentages have absolutely nothing in common *according to you).
Now getting to the pro level though, your Jaedong example is beyond worthless. He had no room to complain, because him being so bad vs Toss was largely unique to him, not to Zergs in general. This situation is completely different for Terrans because every Terran is struggling, not just some random Terran I have decided to pick out of a hat. Lmao, Taeja isnt winning GSLs because he plays in America genius. But he is one of the best players in the world regardless. And Innovation hasnt been a great player for a while now, no matter how many times casters say he is..just look at his results since the hellbat nerf if you dont believe that. And why do you think winrates matter on their own? There are so many ways in which the data can be skewed to make the races appear balanced when in reality they arent. You have to combine winrates with other statistics, such as the number of Terrans competing, the number of Terrans in GM, and the level of players Terrans have faced in tournaments they have done well. If you actually do a little research you will find that simple winrates have no meaning as a statistic on their own.
And would you quit using argumentum ad populum incorrectly..I was just going to let it slip because I knew what you were trying to say, but seriously, you just sound like an ass now.
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On January 03 2014 10:19 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 06:41 Faust852 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. HTs are still better than ghosts, whatever you might say against it. Translation: LALLALLALALLALALLALA Faster, longer unit kill (snipe range 10), emp 9.75, base attack damage, comes with full energy for emp no wait. 2.25 vs 1.85 move speed. But yeah the HT is sooo much better. Insanity.
So that would be like coming with energy ready for fb right..? And ghosts only start with that much energy after researching the upgrade anyways. And ghosts do not have the utility of ht, nor can they be massed as quickly, so even if they were better than ht (which they're not) they would lose to sheer numbers. Also, terran doesn't have a 9 range walking siege platform with no unit collision to worry about that can walk up and snipe ht if they get too close..so theres that too. Ht just have much better synergy with the rest of the Toss army than ghosts do with Terran, and not taking that into account is ignoring the reality of the situation.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 10:39 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. According to what statistics we have currently, PvT is about 1-2% protoss favored at the moment. If your win rate is 22%, the problem is you: not your race. Jaedong also had a really long ass time where his ZvP was absurdly awful, and he lost almost every game he played. He didn't bitch about Protoss being overpowered, he practiced his ass off and learned the matchup, and now he's crushing protosses left and right. Your attitude is what's getting in the way of you getting better. Chill out. On January 03 2014 07:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:33 Ben... wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands. As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS. Well yeah, mass ghost viking is the ideal end game composition for Terran TvP, but its just so expensive and takes so long to build that its hard to ever get there safely. There was a really good/long game between HerO and someone (Polt maybe?) on Daybreak back in WOL that showed how strong viking ghost is. Achieving it is just virtually impossible, especially in HOTS. And again I dont want the game balanced around non-pros; I never said that. I just don't want it balanced around the very, very best pros that Terran has to offer. Taeja should handily beat nearly every Toss player on the planet with the exception of going relatively even with the top two or three Toss players in the world. He should not be going .500 with average Koreans though because he himself is not average. There are numerous players out there that are better than Taeja, I specifically chose Taeja as an example before because he isn't the best terran in the world. Taeja is freaking spectacular, but there's a reason he isn't winning GSL's like Maru or Innovation. So you seem to be confusing your own argument now..if the game is not balanced at our level why should my TvP % be any different? And furthermore if it should still be at 50%, how is it that I can get an amazing TvT % and a positive TvZ percentage and still have such a horrendous rate vs Toss? It clearly doesnt stem from my ability to play the race, or I would not be doing so well vs the other two races, it has something to do specifically with Toss.. And if youre refering to winrates of the pros in that second paragraph then your argument is inherently false anyways, because im talking about my non gm winrate, and those two percentages have absolutely nothing in common *according to you). Now getting to the pro level though, your Jaedong example is beyond worthless. He had no room to complain, because him being so bad vs Toss was largely unique to him, not to Zergs in general. This situation is completely different for Terrans because every Terran is struggling, not just some random Terran I have decided to pick out of a hat. Lmao, Taeja isnt winning GSLs because he plays in America genius. But he is one of the best players in the world regardless. And Innovation hasnt been a great player for a while now, no matter how many times casters say he is..just look at his results since the hellbat nerf if you dont believe that. And why do you think winrates matter on their own? There are so many ways in which the data can be skewed to make the races appear balanced when in reality they arent. You have to combine winrates with other statistics, such as the number of Terrans competing, the number of Terrans in GM, and the level of players Terrans have faced in tournaments they have done well. If you actually do a little research you will find that simple winrates have no meaning as a statistic on their own. And would you quit using argumentum ad populum incorrectly..I was just going to let it slip because I knew what you were trying to say, but seriously, you just sound like an ass now.
I'm not using it incorrectly; you keep saying I'm arguing against a large number of people, and that I must be wrong because there are so many people with that opinion. That's by definition argumentum ad populum. Here, since you are having trouble remembering what you wrote, I'll quote it for you: Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right?
I'm not the one who sounds like an ass, and I'm not the only one to call you out on it.
Only the pro winrates are relevant, but even at a lower level 22% is way below average for terran vs. protoss. So no, the Jaedong example isn't irrelevant, what percentage of terrans do you actually think manage to only win 1 in every 5 PvTs on ladder? As for how you could have a good TvT and TvZ: it's the same way that most people have a single weak matchup. Different matchups require different skills and knowledge. For a long time my PvT was atrocious, way below my PvZ and PvP, I didn't whine that Terran was IMBA just because I was bad at it.
Most terrans have a better than 22% win rate vs. toss. Taeja switched to America because it was easier for him to win there. I'm a statistician, I'm well aware of what statistics are and aren't.
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On January 03 2014 11:24 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 10:39 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:[quote] Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. According to what statistics we have currently, PvT is about 1-2% protoss favored at the moment. If your win rate is 22%, the problem is you: not your race. Jaedong also had a really long ass time where his ZvP was absurdly awful, and he lost almost every game he played. He didn't bitch about Protoss being overpowered, he practiced his ass off and learned the matchup, and now he's crushing protosses left and right. Your attitude is what's getting in the way of you getting better. Chill out. On January 03 2014 07:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:33 Ben... wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:[quote] Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands. As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS. Well yeah, mass ghost viking is the ideal end game composition for Terran TvP, but its just so expensive and takes so long to build that its hard to ever get there safely. There was a really good/long game between HerO and someone (Polt maybe?) on Daybreak back in WOL that showed how strong viking ghost is. Achieving it is just virtually impossible, especially in HOTS. And again I dont want the game balanced around non-pros; I never said that. I just don't want it balanced around the very, very best pros that Terran has to offer. Taeja should handily beat nearly every Toss player on the planet with the exception of going relatively even with the top two or three Toss players in the world. He should not be going .500 with average Koreans though because he himself is not average. There are numerous players out there that are better than Taeja, I specifically chose Taeja as an example before because he isn't the best terran in the world. Taeja is freaking spectacular, but there's a reason he isn't winning GSL's like Maru or Innovation. So you seem to be confusing your own argument now..if the game is not balanced at our level why should my TvP % be any different? And furthermore if it should still be at 50%, how is it that I can get an amazing TvT % and a positive TvZ percentage and still have such a horrendous rate vs Toss? It clearly doesnt stem from my ability to play the race, or I would not be doing so well vs the other two races, it has something to do specifically with Toss.. And if youre refering to winrates of the pros in that second paragraph then your argument is inherently false anyways, because im talking about my non gm winrate, and those two percentages have absolutely nothing in common *according to you). Now getting to the pro level though, your Jaedong example is beyond worthless. He had no room to complain, because him being so bad vs Toss was largely unique to him, not to Zergs in general. This situation is completely different for Terrans because every Terran is struggling, not just some random Terran I have decided to pick out of a hat. Lmao, Taeja isnt winning GSLs because he plays in America genius. But he is one of the best players in the world regardless. And Innovation hasnt been a great player for a while now, no matter how many times casters say he is..just look at his results since the hellbat nerf if you dont believe that. And why do you think winrates matter on their own? There are so many ways in which the data can be skewed to make the races appear balanced when in reality they arent. You have to combine winrates with other statistics, such as the number of Terrans competing, the number of Terrans in GM, and the level of players Terrans have faced in tournaments they have done well. If you actually do a little research you will find that simple winrates have no meaning as a statistic on their own. And would you quit using argumentum ad populum incorrectly..I was just going to let it slip because I knew what you were trying to say, but seriously, you just sound like an ass now. I'm not using it incorrectly; you keep saying I'm arguing against a large number of people, and that I must be wrong because there are so many people with that opinion. That's by definition argumentum ad populum. Here, since you are having trouble remembering what you wrote, I'll quote it for you: Show nested quote +Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? I'm not the one who sounds like an ass, and I'm not the only one to call you out on it. Only the pro winrates are relevant, but even at a lower level 22% is way below average for terran vs. protoss. So no, the Jaedong example isn't irrelevant, what percentage of terrans do you actually think manage to only win 1 in every 5 PvTs on ladder? As for how you could have a good TvT and TvZ: it's the same way that most people have a single weak matchup. Different matchups require different skills and knowledge. For a long time my PvT was atrocious, way below my PvZ and PvP, I didn't whine that Terran was IMBA just because I was bad at it. Most terrans have a better than 22% win rate vs. toss. Taeja switched to America because it was easier for him to win there. I'm a statistician, I'm well aware of what statistics are and aren't.
Dear statistician, explain me why there are like 70% less terrans at high level ? And half the protoss number in GM league.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 11:39 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 11:24 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 10:39 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
...what?
Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed?
Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. According to what statistics we have currently, PvT is about 1-2% protoss favored at the moment. If your win rate is 22%, the problem is you: not your race. Jaedong also had a really long ass time where his ZvP was absurdly awful, and he lost almost every game he played. He didn't bitch about Protoss being overpowered, he practiced his ass off and learned the matchup, and now he's crushing protosses left and right. Your attitude is what's getting in the way of you getting better. Chill out. On January 03 2014 07:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:33 Ben... wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
...what?
Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed?
Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands. As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS. Well yeah, mass ghost viking is the ideal end game composition for Terran TvP, but its just so expensive and takes so long to build that its hard to ever get there safely. There was a really good/long game between HerO and someone (Polt maybe?) on Daybreak back in WOL that showed how strong viking ghost is. Achieving it is just virtually impossible, especially in HOTS. And again I dont want the game balanced around non-pros; I never said that. I just don't want it balanced around the very, very best pros that Terran has to offer. Taeja should handily beat nearly every Toss player on the planet with the exception of going relatively even with the top two or three Toss players in the world. He should not be going .500 with average Koreans though because he himself is not average. There are numerous players out there that are better than Taeja, I specifically chose Taeja as an example before because he isn't the best terran in the world. Taeja is freaking spectacular, but there's a reason he isn't winning GSL's like Maru or Innovation. So you seem to be confusing your own argument now..if the game is not balanced at our level why should my TvP % be any different? And furthermore if it should still be at 50%, how is it that I can get an amazing TvT % and a positive TvZ percentage and still have such a horrendous rate vs Toss? It clearly doesnt stem from my ability to play the race, or I would not be doing so well vs the other two races, it has something to do specifically with Toss.. And if youre refering to winrates of the pros in that second paragraph then your argument is inherently false anyways, because im talking about my non gm winrate, and those two percentages have absolutely nothing in common *according to you). Now getting to the pro level though, your Jaedong example is beyond worthless. He had no room to complain, because him being so bad vs Toss was largely unique to him, not to Zergs in general. This situation is completely different for Terrans because every Terran is struggling, not just some random Terran I have decided to pick out of a hat. Lmao, Taeja isnt winning GSLs because he plays in America genius. But he is one of the best players in the world regardless. And Innovation hasnt been a great player for a while now, no matter how many times casters say he is..just look at his results since the hellbat nerf if you dont believe that. And why do you think winrates matter on their own? There are so many ways in which the data can be skewed to make the races appear balanced when in reality they arent. You have to combine winrates with other statistics, such as the number of Terrans competing, the number of Terrans in GM, and the level of players Terrans have faced in tournaments they have done well. If you actually do a little research you will find that simple winrates have no meaning as a statistic on their own. And would you quit using argumentum ad populum incorrectly..I was just going to let it slip because I knew what you were trying to say, but seriously, you just sound like an ass now. I'm not using it incorrectly; you keep saying I'm arguing against a large number of people, and that I must be wrong because there are so many people with that opinion. That's by definition argumentum ad populum. Here, since you are having trouble remembering what you wrote, I'll quote it for you: Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? I'm not the one who sounds like an ass, and I'm not the only one to call you out on it. Only the pro winrates are relevant, but even at a lower level 22% is way below average for terran vs. protoss. So no, the Jaedong example isn't irrelevant, what percentage of terrans do you actually think manage to only win 1 in every 5 PvTs on ladder? As for how you could have a good TvT and TvZ: it's the same way that most people have a single weak matchup. Different matchups require different skills and knowledge. For a long time my PvT was atrocious, way below my PvZ and PvP, I didn't whine that Terran was IMBA just because I was bad at it. Most terrans have a better than 22% win rate vs. toss. Taeja switched to America because it was easier for him to win there. I'm a statistician, I'm well aware of what statistics are and aren't. Dear statistician, explain me why there are like 70% less terrans at high level ? And half the protoss number in GM league.
I do believe there have already been discussions covering this topic, but ladder representation is not indicative of game balance at the professional level, which is the only level where it is relevant. To answer your facetious question, the answer is that terran requires more mechanical skill than playing protoss or zerg, which takes more practice and effort to learn than the skills zerg or protoss require. Protoss is more about intuition, reading, preparation and build execution. Zerg mostly just needs to know when to drone and when to make units, and not to miss injects. Terran has the highest base mechanics requirement, meaning that it requires more raw mechanical skill to play well. Note that mechanical skill is not the only skill that exists in the game, nor is it the only representation of difficulty. Learning how to scout and not die to all-ins as zerg is not easy or trivial and requires a lot of skill, and learning how to properly place forcefields and have excellent awareness of your front and bases to not die to things like ling runbys or drops is not easy or trivial either.
It just so happens that the single hardest thing to learn is mechanics: most people have no idea at all how to even go about developing mechanics or what good habits are. Ergonomics are relevant here: there's a reason flash pulls out the ruler every time he steps into the booth.
None of this is indicative of a race's potential to win or lose games, merely the skills necessary to properly play that race. Terran's skill requirement happens to be one that's rarer and harder to develop, but that was the same as it was in brood war too.
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On January 03 2014 11:45 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 11:39 Faust852 wrote:On January 03 2014 11:24 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 10:39 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:
[quote]
Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. According to what statistics we have currently, PvT is about 1-2% protoss favored at the moment. If your win rate is 22%, the problem is you: not your race. Jaedong also had a really long ass time where his ZvP was absurdly awful, and he lost almost every game he played. He didn't bitch about Protoss being overpowered, he practiced his ass off and learned the matchup, and now he's crushing protosses left and right. Your attitude is what's getting in the way of you getting better. Chill out. On January 03 2014 07:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:33 Ben... wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:
[quote]
Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands. As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS. Well yeah, mass ghost viking is the ideal end game composition for Terran TvP, but its just so expensive and takes so long to build that its hard to ever get there safely. There was a really good/long game between HerO and someone (Polt maybe?) on Daybreak back in WOL that showed how strong viking ghost is. Achieving it is just virtually impossible, especially in HOTS. And again I dont want the game balanced around non-pros; I never said that. I just don't want it balanced around the very, very best pros that Terran has to offer. Taeja should handily beat nearly every Toss player on the planet with the exception of going relatively even with the top two or three Toss players in the world. He should not be going .500 with average Koreans though because he himself is not average. There are numerous players out there that are better than Taeja, I specifically chose Taeja as an example before because he isn't the best terran in the world. Taeja is freaking spectacular, but there's a reason he isn't winning GSL's like Maru or Innovation. So you seem to be confusing your own argument now..if the game is not balanced at our level why should my TvP % be any different? And furthermore if it should still be at 50%, how is it that I can get an amazing TvT % and a positive TvZ percentage and still have such a horrendous rate vs Toss? It clearly doesnt stem from my ability to play the race, or I would not be doing so well vs the other two races, it has something to do specifically with Toss.. And if youre refering to winrates of the pros in that second paragraph then your argument is inherently false anyways, because im talking about my non gm winrate, and those two percentages have absolutely nothing in common *according to you). Now getting to the pro level though, your Jaedong example is beyond worthless. He had no room to complain, because him being so bad vs Toss was largely unique to him, not to Zergs in general. This situation is completely different for Terrans because every Terran is struggling, not just some random Terran I have decided to pick out of a hat. Lmao, Taeja isnt winning GSLs because he plays in America genius. But he is one of the best players in the world regardless. And Innovation hasnt been a great player for a while now, no matter how many times casters say he is..just look at his results since the hellbat nerf if you dont believe that. And why do you think winrates matter on their own? There are so many ways in which the data can be skewed to make the races appear balanced when in reality they arent. You have to combine winrates with other statistics, such as the number of Terrans competing, the number of Terrans in GM, and the level of players Terrans have faced in tournaments they have done well. If you actually do a little research you will find that simple winrates have no meaning as a statistic on their own. And would you quit using argumentum ad populum incorrectly..I was just going to let it slip because I knew what you were trying to say, but seriously, you just sound like an ass now. I'm not using it incorrectly; you keep saying I'm arguing against a large number of people, and that I must be wrong because there are so many people with that opinion. That's by definition argumentum ad populum. Here, since you are having trouble remembering what you wrote, I'll quote it for you: Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? I'm not the one who sounds like an ass, and I'm not the only one to call you out on it. Only the pro winrates are relevant, but even at a lower level 22% is way below average for terran vs. protoss. So no, the Jaedong example isn't irrelevant, what percentage of terrans do you actually think manage to only win 1 in every 5 PvTs on ladder? As for how you could have a good TvT and TvZ: it's the same way that most people have a single weak matchup. Different matchups require different skills and knowledge. For a long time my PvT was atrocious, way below my PvZ and PvP, I didn't whine that Terran was IMBA just because I was bad at it. Most terrans have a better than 22% win rate vs. toss. Taeja switched to America because it was easier for him to win there. I'm a statistician, I'm well aware of what statistics are and aren't. Dear statistician, explain me why there are like 70% less terrans at high level ? And half the protoss number in GM league. I do believe there have already been discussions covering this topic, but ladder representation is not indicative of game balance at the professional level, which is the only level where it is relevant. To answer your facetious question, the answer is that terran requires more mechanical skill than playing protoss or zerg, which takes more practice and effort to learn than the skills zerg or protoss require. Protoss is more about intuition, reading, preparation and build execution. Zerg mostly just needs to know when to drone and when to make units, and not to miss injects. Terran has the highest base mechanics requirement, meaning that it requires more raw mechanical skill to play well. Note that mechanical skill is not the only skill that exists in the game, nor is it the only representation of difficulty. Learning how to scout and not die to all-ins as zerg is not easy or trivial and requires a lot of skill, and learning how to properly place forcefields and have excellent awareness of your front and bases to not die to things like ling runbys or drops is not easy or trivial either. It just so happens that the single hardest thing to learn is mechanics: most people have no idea at all how to even go about developing mechanics or what good habits are. Ergonomics are relevant here: there's a reason flash pulls out the ruler every time he steps into the booth. None of this is indicative of a race's potential to win or lose games, merely the skills necessary to properly play that race. Terran's skill requirement happens to be one that's rarer and harder to develop, but that was the same as it was in brood war too.
You didn't answer my question : since there is only pro games that count, explain me why there is so few terran pro games played these days.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 11:47 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 11:45 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 11:39 Faust852 wrote:On January 03 2014 11:24 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 10:39 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels.
Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it.
And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. According to what statistics we have currently, PvT is about 1-2% protoss favored at the moment. If your win rate is 22%, the problem is you: not your race. Jaedong also had a really long ass time where his ZvP was absurdly awful, and he lost almost every game he played. He didn't bitch about Protoss being overpowered, he practiced his ass off and learned the matchup, and now he's crushing protosses left and right. Your attitude is what's getting in the way of you getting better. Chill out. On January 03 2014 07:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:33 Ben... wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels.
Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it.
And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands. As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS. Well yeah, mass ghost viking is the ideal end game composition for Terran TvP, but its just so expensive and takes so long to build that its hard to ever get there safely. There was a really good/long game between HerO and someone (Polt maybe?) on Daybreak back in WOL that showed how strong viking ghost is. Achieving it is just virtually impossible, especially in HOTS. And again I dont want the game balanced around non-pros; I never said that. I just don't want it balanced around the very, very best pros that Terran has to offer. Taeja should handily beat nearly every Toss player on the planet with the exception of going relatively even with the top two or three Toss players in the world. He should not be going .500 with average Koreans though because he himself is not average. There are numerous players out there that are better than Taeja, I specifically chose Taeja as an example before because he isn't the best terran in the world. Taeja is freaking spectacular, but there's a reason he isn't winning GSL's like Maru or Innovation. So you seem to be confusing your own argument now..if the game is not balanced at our level why should my TvP % be any different? And furthermore if it should still be at 50%, how is it that I can get an amazing TvT % and a positive TvZ percentage and still have such a horrendous rate vs Toss? It clearly doesnt stem from my ability to play the race, or I would not be doing so well vs the other two races, it has something to do specifically with Toss.. And if youre refering to winrates of the pros in that second paragraph then your argument is inherently false anyways, because im talking about my non gm winrate, and those two percentages have absolutely nothing in common *according to you). Now getting to the pro level though, your Jaedong example is beyond worthless. He had no room to complain, because him being so bad vs Toss was largely unique to him, not to Zergs in general. This situation is completely different for Terrans because every Terran is struggling, not just some random Terran I have decided to pick out of a hat. Lmao, Taeja isnt winning GSLs because he plays in America genius. But he is one of the best players in the world regardless. And Innovation hasnt been a great player for a while now, no matter how many times casters say he is..just look at his results since the hellbat nerf if you dont believe that. And why do you think winrates matter on their own? There are so many ways in which the data can be skewed to make the races appear balanced when in reality they arent. You have to combine winrates with other statistics, such as the number of Terrans competing, the number of Terrans in GM, and the level of players Terrans have faced in tournaments they have done well. If you actually do a little research you will find that simple winrates have no meaning as a statistic on their own. And would you quit using argumentum ad populum incorrectly..I was just going to let it slip because I knew what you were trying to say, but seriously, you just sound like an ass now. I'm not using it incorrectly; you keep saying I'm arguing against a large number of people, and that I must be wrong because there are so many people with that opinion. That's by definition argumentum ad populum. Here, since you are having trouble remembering what you wrote, I'll quote it for you: Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? I'm not the one who sounds like an ass, and I'm not the only one to call you out on it. Only the pro winrates are relevant, but even at a lower level 22% is way below average for terran vs. protoss. So no, the Jaedong example isn't irrelevant, what percentage of terrans do you actually think manage to only win 1 in every 5 PvTs on ladder? As for how you could have a good TvT and TvZ: it's the same way that most people have a single weak matchup. Different matchups require different skills and knowledge. For a long time my PvT was atrocious, way below my PvZ and PvP, I didn't whine that Terran was IMBA just because I was bad at it. Most terrans have a better than 22% win rate vs. toss. Taeja switched to America because it was easier for him to win there. I'm a statistician, I'm well aware of what statistics are and aren't. Dear statistician, explain me why there are like 70% less terrans at high level ? And half the protoss number in GM league. I do believe there have already been discussions covering this topic, but ladder representation is not indicative of game balance at the professional level, which is the only level where it is relevant. To answer your facetious question, the answer is that terran requires more mechanical skill than playing protoss or zerg, which takes more practice and effort to learn than the skills zerg or protoss require. Protoss is more about intuition, reading, preparation and build execution. Zerg mostly just needs to know when to drone and when to make units, and not to miss injects. Terran has the highest base mechanics requirement, meaning that it requires more raw mechanical skill to play well. Note that mechanical skill is not the only skill that exists in the game, nor is it the only representation of difficulty. Learning how to scout and not die to all-ins as zerg is not easy or trivial and requires a lot of skill, and learning how to properly place forcefields and have excellent awareness of your front and bases to not die to things like ling runbys or drops is not easy or trivial either. It just so happens that the single hardest thing to learn is mechanics: most people have no idea at all how to even go about developing mechanics or what good habits are. Ergonomics are relevant here: there's a reason flash pulls out the ruler every time he steps into the booth. None of this is indicative of a race's potential to win or lose games, merely the skills necessary to properly play that race. Terran's skill requirement happens to be one that's rarer and harder to develop, but that was the same as it was in brood war too. You didn't answer my question : since there is only pro games that count, explain me why there is so few terran pro games played these days.
Proleague has been historically very protoss heavy, even during periods of protoss weakness (even during brood war), so we can disregard that. As for others, I'm not sure I agree there are terrans missing? Even during periods where terran was obscene like the GOMTvT era, there weren't many foreign terrans around. Korean terrans are still doing quite well overall.
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On January 03 2014 11:50 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 11:47 Faust852 wrote:On January 03 2014 11:45 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 11:39 Faust852 wrote:On January 03 2014 11:24 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 10:39 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:
[quote]
So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. According to what statistics we have currently, PvT is about 1-2% protoss favored at the moment. If your win rate is 22%, the problem is you: not your race. Jaedong also had a really long ass time where his ZvP was absurdly awful, and he lost almost every game he played. He didn't bitch about Protoss being overpowered, he practiced his ass off and learned the matchup, and now he's crushing protosses left and right. Your attitude is what's getting in the way of you getting better. Chill out. On January 03 2014 07:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:33 Ben... wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:
[quote]
So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands. As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS. Well yeah, mass ghost viking is the ideal end game composition for Terran TvP, but its just so expensive and takes so long to build that its hard to ever get there safely. There was a really good/long game between HerO and someone (Polt maybe?) on Daybreak back in WOL that showed how strong viking ghost is. Achieving it is just virtually impossible, especially in HOTS. And again I dont want the game balanced around non-pros; I never said that. I just don't want it balanced around the very, very best pros that Terran has to offer. Taeja should handily beat nearly every Toss player on the planet with the exception of going relatively even with the top two or three Toss players in the world. He should not be going .500 with average Koreans though because he himself is not average. There are numerous players out there that are better than Taeja, I specifically chose Taeja as an example before because he isn't the best terran in the world. Taeja is freaking spectacular, but there's a reason he isn't winning GSL's like Maru or Innovation. So you seem to be confusing your own argument now..if the game is not balanced at our level why should my TvP % be any different? And furthermore if it should still be at 50%, how is it that I can get an amazing TvT % and a positive TvZ percentage and still have such a horrendous rate vs Toss? It clearly doesnt stem from my ability to play the race, or I would not be doing so well vs the other two races, it has something to do specifically with Toss.. And if youre refering to winrates of the pros in that second paragraph then your argument is inherently false anyways, because im talking about my non gm winrate, and those two percentages have absolutely nothing in common *according to you). Now getting to the pro level though, your Jaedong example is beyond worthless. He had no room to complain, because him being so bad vs Toss was largely unique to him, not to Zergs in general. This situation is completely different for Terrans because every Terran is struggling, not just some random Terran I have decided to pick out of a hat. Lmao, Taeja isnt winning GSLs because he plays in America genius. But he is one of the best players in the world regardless. And Innovation hasnt been a great player for a while now, no matter how many times casters say he is..just look at his results since the hellbat nerf if you dont believe that. And why do you think winrates matter on their own? There are so many ways in which the data can be skewed to make the races appear balanced when in reality they arent. You have to combine winrates with other statistics, such as the number of Terrans competing, the number of Terrans in GM, and the level of players Terrans have faced in tournaments they have done well. If you actually do a little research you will find that simple winrates have no meaning as a statistic on their own. And would you quit using argumentum ad populum incorrectly..I was just going to let it slip because I knew what you were trying to say, but seriously, you just sound like an ass now. I'm not using it incorrectly; you keep saying I'm arguing against a large number of people, and that I must be wrong because there are so many people with that opinion. That's by definition argumentum ad populum. Here, since you are having trouble remembering what you wrote, I'll quote it for you: Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? I'm not the one who sounds like an ass, and I'm not the only one to call you out on it. Only the pro winrates are relevant, but even at a lower level 22% is way below average for terran vs. protoss. So no, the Jaedong example isn't irrelevant, what percentage of terrans do you actually think manage to only win 1 in every 5 PvTs on ladder? As for how you could have a good TvT and TvZ: it's the same way that most people have a single weak matchup. Different matchups require different skills and knowledge. For a long time my PvT was atrocious, way below my PvZ and PvP, I didn't whine that Terran was IMBA just because I was bad at it. Most terrans have a better than 22% win rate vs. toss. Taeja switched to America because it was easier for him to win there. I'm a statistician, I'm well aware of what statistics are and aren't. Dear statistician, explain me why there are like 70% less terrans at high level ? And half the protoss number in GM league. I do believe there have already been discussions covering this topic, but ladder representation is not indicative of game balance at the professional level, which is the only level where it is relevant. To answer your facetious question, the answer is that terran requires more mechanical skill than playing protoss or zerg, which takes more practice and effort to learn than the skills zerg or protoss require. Protoss is more about intuition, reading, preparation and build execution. Zerg mostly just needs to know when to drone and when to make units, and not to miss injects. Terran has the highest base mechanics requirement, meaning that it requires more raw mechanical skill to play well. Note that mechanical skill is not the only skill that exists in the game, nor is it the only representation of difficulty. Learning how to scout and not die to all-ins as zerg is not easy or trivial and requires a lot of skill, and learning how to properly place forcefields and have excellent awareness of your front and bases to not die to things like ling runbys or drops is not easy or trivial either. It just so happens that the single hardest thing to learn is mechanics: most people have no idea at all how to even go about developing mechanics or what good habits are. Ergonomics are relevant here: there's a reason flash pulls out the ruler every time he steps into the booth. None of this is indicative of a race's potential to win or lose games, merely the skills necessary to properly play that race. Terran's skill requirement happens to be one that's rarer and harder to develop, but that was the same as it was in brood war too. You didn't answer my question : since there is only pro games that count, explain me why there is so few terran pro games played these days. Proleague has been historically very protoss heavy, even during periods of protoss weakness (even during brood war), so we can disregard that. As for others, I'm not sure I agree there are terrans missing? Even during periods where terran was obscene like the GOMTvT era, there weren't many foreign terrans around. Korean terrans are still doing quite well overall.
For a statistician, you don't really look at statistics heh. I'm talking about the number of terrans playing at the highest level. You can look at TvT on aligulac for exemple :
list 101 : 121 PvP, 30 TvT, 125 ZvZ
list 100 : 249 PvP, 101 TvT, 293 ZvZ
list 99 : 237 PvP, 106 TvT, 353 ZvZ
list 98 : 238 PvP, 125 TvT, 240 ZvZ
list 97 : 405 PvP, 175 TvT, 445 ZvZ
now, much earlier into the year :
list 85 : 144 PvP, 109 TvT, 147 ZvZ
list 84 : 269 PvP, 168 TvT, 290 ZvZ
list 83 : 196 PvP, 168 TvT, 298 ZvZ
See, much more TvT back in the days.
Now, look at early 2012, when the game was considered at his best balance wise :
list 52 : 295 PvP, 283 TvT, 297 ZvZ
list 51 : 159 PvP, 187 TvT, 236 ZvZ
list 50 : 124 PvP, 126 TvT, 204 ZvZ
list 49 : 106 PvP, 121 TvT, 197 ZvZ
I hope you see my point now.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 12:02 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 11:50 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 11:47 Faust852 wrote:On January 03 2014 11:45 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 11:39 Faust852 wrote:On January 03 2014 11:24 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 10:39 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.
You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. According to what statistics we have currently, PvT is about 1-2% protoss favored at the moment. If your win rate is 22%, the problem is you: not your race. Jaedong also had a really long ass time where his ZvP was absurdly awful, and he lost almost every game he played. He didn't bitch about Protoss being overpowered, he practiced his ass off and learned the matchup, and now he's crushing protosses left and right. Your attitude is what's getting in the way of you getting better. Chill out. On January 03 2014 07:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:33 Ben... wrote:
[quote]
If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands.
As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS.
Well yeah, mass ghost viking is the ideal end game composition for Terran TvP, but its just so expensive and takes so long to build that its hard to ever get there safely. There was a really good/long game between HerO and someone (Polt maybe?) on Daybreak back in WOL that showed how strong viking ghost is. Achieving it is just virtually impossible, especially in HOTS. And again I dont want the game balanced around non-pros; I never said that. I just don't want it balanced around the very, very best pros that Terran has to offer. Taeja should handily beat nearly every Toss player on the planet with the exception of going relatively even with the top two or three Toss players in the world. He should not be going .500 with average Koreans though because he himself is not average. There are numerous players out there that are better than Taeja, I specifically chose Taeja as an example before because he isn't the best terran in the world. Taeja is freaking spectacular, but there's a reason he isn't winning GSL's like Maru or Innovation. So you seem to be confusing your own argument now..if the game is not balanced at our level why should my TvP % be any different? And furthermore if it should still be at 50%, how is it that I can get an amazing TvT % and a positive TvZ percentage and still have such a horrendous rate vs Toss? It clearly doesnt stem from my ability to play the race, or I would not be doing so well vs the other two races, it has something to do specifically with Toss.. And if youre refering to winrates of the pros in that second paragraph then your argument is inherently false anyways, because im talking about my non gm winrate, and those two percentages have absolutely nothing in common *according to you). Now getting to the pro level though, your Jaedong example is beyond worthless. He had no room to complain, because him being so bad vs Toss was largely unique to him, not to Zergs in general. This situation is completely different for Terrans because every Terran is struggling, not just some random Terran I have decided to pick out of a hat. Lmao, Taeja isnt winning GSLs because he plays in America genius. But he is one of the best players in the world regardless. And Innovation hasnt been a great player for a while now, no matter how many times casters say he is..just look at his results since the hellbat nerf if you dont believe that. And why do you think winrates matter on their own? There are so many ways in which the data can be skewed to make the races appear balanced when in reality they arent. You have to combine winrates with other statistics, such as the number of Terrans competing, the number of Terrans in GM, and the level of players Terrans have faced in tournaments they have done well. If you actually do a little research you will find that simple winrates have no meaning as a statistic on their own. And would you quit using argumentum ad populum incorrectly..I was just going to let it slip because I knew what you were trying to say, but seriously, you just sound like an ass now. I'm not using it incorrectly; you keep saying I'm arguing against a large number of people, and that I must be wrong because there are so many people with that opinion. That's by definition argumentum ad populum. Here, since you are having trouble remembering what you wrote, I'll quote it for you: Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? I'm not the one who sounds like an ass, and I'm not the only one to call you out on it. Only the pro winrates are relevant, but even at a lower level 22% is way below average for terran vs. protoss. So no, the Jaedong example isn't irrelevant, what percentage of terrans do you actually think manage to only win 1 in every 5 PvTs on ladder? As for how you could have a good TvT and TvZ: it's the same way that most people have a single weak matchup. Different matchups require different skills and knowledge. For a long time my PvT was atrocious, way below my PvZ and PvP, I didn't whine that Terran was IMBA just because I was bad at it. Most terrans have a better than 22% win rate vs. toss. Taeja switched to America because it was easier for him to win there. I'm a statistician, I'm well aware of what statistics are and aren't. Dear statistician, explain me why there are like 70% less terrans at high level ? And half the protoss number in GM league. I do believe there have already been discussions covering this topic, but ladder representation is not indicative of game balance at the professional level, which is the only level where it is relevant. To answer your facetious question, the answer is that terran requires more mechanical skill than playing protoss or zerg, which takes more practice and effort to learn than the skills zerg or protoss require. Protoss is more about intuition, reading, preparation and build execution. Zerg mostly just needs to know when to drone and when to make units, and not to miss injects. Terran has the highest base mechanics requirement, meaning that it requires more raw mechanical skill to play well. Note that mechanical skill is not the only skill that exists in the game, nor is it the only representation of difficulty. Learning how to scout and not die to all-ins as zerg is not easy or trivial and requires a lot of skill, and learning how to properly place forcefields and have excellent awareness of your front and bases to not die to things like ling runbys or drops is not easy or trivial either. It just so happens that the single hardest thing to learn is mechanics: most people have no idea at all how to even go about developing mechanics or what good habits are. Ergonomics are relevant here: there's a reason flash pulls out the ruler every time he steps into the booth. None of this is indicative of a race's potential to win or lose games, merely the skills necessary to properly play that race. Terran's skill requirement happens to be one that's rarer and harder to develop, but that was the same as it was in brood war too. You didn't answer my question : since there is only pro games that count, explain me why there is so few terran pro games played these days. Proleague has been historically very protoss heavy, even during periods of protoss weakness (even during brood war), so we can disregard that. As for others, I'm not sure I agree there are terrans missing? Even during periods where terran was obscene like the GOMTvT era, there weren't many foreign terrans around. Korean terrans are still doing quite well overall. For a statistician, you don't really look at statistics heh. I'm talking about the number of terrans playing at the highest level. You can look at TvT on aligulac for exemple : list 101 : 121 PvP, 30 TvT, 125 ZvZ list 100 : 249 PvP, 101 TvT, 293 ZvZ list 99 : 237 PvP, 106 TvT, 353 ZvZ list 98 : 238 PvP, 125 TvT, 240 ZvZ list 97 : 405 PvP, 175 TvT, 445 ZvZ now, much earlier into the year : list 85 : 144 PvP, 109 TvT, 147 ZvZ list 84 : 269 PvP, 168 TvT, 290 ZvZ list 83 : 196 PvP, 168 TvT, 298 ZvZ See, much more TvT back in the days. Now, look at early 2012, when the game was considered at his best balance wise : list 52 : 295 PvP, 283 TvT, 297 ZvZ list 51 : 159 PvP, 187 TvT, 236 ZvZ list 50 : 124 PvP, 126 TvT, 204 ZvZ list 49 : 106 PvP, 121 TvT, 197 ZvZ I hope you see my point now.
Too many variables involved in how frequent TvT appears which you are disregarding. TvT's might simply be occuring less frequently because terrans have been playing against more zergs and protoss players in the early games. Yes: there are fewer terran players than there are protoss and zerg players, but there have been more terran players which consistently place well in tournaments than there have zerg or protoss players. Either the argument is that terran pros are just plain better players in general and have always been and will be (which was the argument every terran made during GOMTvT), or you might want to consider that there isn't a balance problem that's significant, and that there are other variables and factors at work.
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WOAH WOAH WOAH...... You can't throw facts at them then they have to come up with another excuse to ignore the reality that faces us...... such as "Ladder is no indication of Balance, You have to look at the Pros for balance" Next sentence " You can't look at proleague because they are toss heavy since BW ( Translation it doesn't coincide with my point and actually refutes everything i'm saying so lets ignore that)"
If you want to talk about facts to support your argument that you are making you have to take all the facts not just the ones you want to in an effort to skew the argument in your favor like a Lawyer or the USA media......
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Balancing around the top players of each race doesn't make much sense, Whitewing. Among a handful of players there are bound to be differences of skill, you can't assume that the best Terran is as skilled as the best Protoss.
In an ideal world, the game would be balanced at all levels, leaving the top players really dominate because they're better, not because their race's proxies are better.
If you know what I'm talking about.
Edit: To be more constructive, I think it's good to balance around bottom of Code A (maybe bottom of Code S) and Proleague mid-range players. Those players are still way above foreigner level, while still far from the top. These days there are hardly anymore "new" Terran players, and it seems only leaders of the race are able to do something with it.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 12:09 Pirfiktshon wrote:
WOAH WOAH WOAH...... You can't throw facts at them then they have to come up with another excuse to ignore the reality that faces us...... such as "Ladder is no indication of Balance, You have to look at the Pros for balance" Next sentence " You can't look at proleague because they are toss heavy since BW ( Translation it doesn't coincide with my point and actually refutes everything i'm saying so lets ignore that)"
If you want to talk about facts to support your argument that you are making you have to take all the facts not just the ones you want to in an effort to skew the argument in your favor like a Lawyer or the USA media......
Sorry, what? When examining DID (Differences in differences), you have to look at how something has changed over time with the difference you are examining. Proleague has always been protoss heavy regardless of how balance has changed or what other variables have changed, so it hasn't changed with time. This indicates balance has no significant effect on whether proleague is protoss heavy or not. Variables and reasons why things occur actually do matter. When examining whether balance changes have had an impact on various factors, you have to look at how those factors change on their own before seeing how they change with the variable. Proleague is always protoss heavy, period. That's why I discounted it: it was protoss heavy when it first started in SC2 (when protoss was a fair bit weaker than they are now), and it was always protoss heavy in BW. Proleague likes protoss, go figure.
So no, I didn't just ignore it because it didn't coincide with my point. Protoss is likely so favored in proleague because of the format of the tournament.
On January 03 2014 12:11 ZenithM wrote:
Balancing around the top players of each race doesn't make much sense, Whitewing. Among a handful of players there are bound to be differences of skill, you can't assume that the best Terran is as skilled as the best Protoss.
In an ideal world, the game would be balanced at all levels, leaving the top players really dominate because they're better, not because their race's proxies are better.
If you know what I'm talking about.
It's the only level balance is relevant at, so you have to try. I understand it'd be nice if balance was possible at all levels, but that's nearly impossible in a game with significantly asymmetric races like Starcraft. You also don't have to assume the best terran is the same skill as the best protoss: you see the way the best players in each race are performing against one another, and if one race is dominating the other, you adjust balance. If it turns out that the other race was simply weaker players for a brief period, then you can revert or fix it after they catch up, but the hard part is that you can never actually know if it's being of superior skill or not, since the top players are so good that the skills they aren't perfect on are hard to pick up on. This is why it's important to wait long periods between balance patches: if it seems that one race is doing poorly, it might be because they haven't adjusted to the new trends yet and might catch up and adjust later. If you balance patch too soon, you are likely to overcompensate and then you'll just have to fix it later down the line.
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Of course you need to balance for the top players. You just need to have a good definition of what's the top, and stick to it.
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EPT
