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On September 06 2013 08:53 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 07:46 usethis2 wrote:
Bomber did SCV pulls way back in his first GSL debut. IIRC, he did it with one-base 1/1/1. lol.
I've never liked any worker pull in any attack by any race. I think workers should be limited to mining and repairing. It's even more irritating that T is usually the only race that benefits from this BS. Calling workers to arm for defense is one thing but taking them to be a meat shield in battlefields is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
I hope more T's do this so that this will eventually get Blizzard's attention. Uh... why is it wrong? And what do you think Blizzard should do about it? Personally, I think it's awesome when a player looks at the game, sees the situation he's in and sees his opponent playing just a little bit too greedy, and says "In five minutes I'll be dead, but if I go right now, I can win. All-ins are exciting in SC2, just like they are in poker.
The (potential) problem is that the tactic is not only used to punish greedy play. You're vulnerable to these scv pulls whenever your army falls a certain percent behind Terran's army. You can make a mistake and lose a colossi, or a warp prism drop can go badly, or your macro can falter for a bit.. and Terran can often immediately jump on the opportunity to pull scvs and end the game. It's not necessarily a bad thing to be punished harshly for your mistakes, but if one race consistently goes all in whenever it gets slightly ahead, lengthy back and forth games will have less chance to develop.
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On September 06 2013 08:53 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 07:46 usethis2 wrote:
Bomber did SCV pulls way back in his first GSL debut. IIRC, he did it with one-base 1/1/1. lol.
I've never liked any worker pull in any attack by any race. I think workers should be limited to mining and repairing. It's even more irritating that T is usually the only race that benefits from this BS. Calling workers to arm for defense is one thing but taking them to be a meat shield in battlefields is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
I hope more T's do this so that this will eventually get Blizzard's attention. Uh... why is it wrong? And what do you think Blizzard should do about it? Personally, I think it's awesome when a player looks at the game, sees the situation he's in and sees his opponent playing just a little bit too greedy, and says "In five minutes I'll be dead, but if I go right now, I can win. All-ins are exciting in SC2, just like they are in poker.
Did you enjoy the 2 rax bunker into 4 rax + SCV all-in on Steppes of War or Xelnaga Fortress? Every single game, just because shitty T players can get easy wins against Z players? (need I remind you BitByBit)
And greedy my ass. Most of these scv-pulls happens regardless of P's greed. For pete's sake, I most often see it when Toss is on 2 base and while T sets up his 3rd behind as an "insurance." (or perhaps as a deception)
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I've posted this here and there for refining it and searching for additional opinions. What do you think?
Let me just start by saying that I'm a Terran player, I love Starcraft 2, I've been playing it for such a long time and I'm really into this game. Right now there are very few areas where I find flaws in this game, TvZ is one of them.
As of late, lots of people have been giving so much negative feedback on the current state of TvZ gameplay.
I too must agree in that every TvZ turns out to be that the Zerg struggles holding on to his 3 bases when the endless Terran parade of Marine, Medivac, Mine and possibly Marauder hits around the 10minute mark and continues towards the end of the game. If the Zerg were to survive this Terran train of death and finally get up to Ultralisks, they do have somewhat of a chance because of Ultralisks being effective versus WidowMines.
The other situation in which you have a chance as Zerg is if you are a god at handling your army and making no mistakes in regards to picking of the WidowMines one by one and splitting up your army effectively. Most would probably agree in that this type of gameplay is simply too difficult for the Zerg to handle and too "easy" for the Terran to execute. It is way too easy for the Terran to end up: note without ANY effort, killing 6-8 Banelings with one single 75/25 cost Widow Mine and thus changing the entire game.
Here is my suggestion and what I would like to be discussed amongst you.
IF Blizzard were to allow this, what kind of gameplay would this make for in all of the ZvX matchups?
The Lurker is reintroduced
Would this not force the Widow Mines to be more of a Defensive unit or atleast a unit with the task of controlling areas/expansions/defending against Mutaclumps at home?
Would it not provide for a more interesting Early-Midgame where the Zerg morphs Lurkers out of Hydralisks/Roaches to fend of the Bio aggression and force a revival of the Terran Raven unit, to scout for Lurkers so as to not waste Mules on scanning the Lurker positions? This would in turn lead to Mutalisks trying to snipe the Ravens to protect the Lurkers and perhaps the Terran gives in and techs to Tanks which leads to the Zerg countering with Swarm Hosts. I really do believe that this would give for more options for both races and perhaps even exceed the gamestyle of Brood War.
I truly believe that Blizzard had intended for the SwarmHost and WidowMine to fill up the void that SpiderMine and Lurkers left in midgame during the switch from Sc1 to Sc2 but now the SwarmHost is more of a very slow longrange siege unit that requires a count of 15-20 or so Swarm Hosts to actually be effective and ofc it does not stand a chance against the mobile Bioforce of Terran due to its infrequent attack and slow techpath. It still does have it's place versus Mech and in some decent ZvP matches which some might call stale but they are still somewhat viable atleast.
Once again: this is just a theoretical discussion and would of course be hard to implement in the middle of "tournament season" without having to wait for LotV and by LotV Blizzard hopefully has already changed this matchup. I just want a healthy discussion. If Blizzard would be to make any chance addressing the WidowMine pre-LotV without adding a unit I suppose it would be a splashdmg nerf or making 3/3 available from Lair which are the 2 most suggested changes.
Alternatively: what could be done with the Swarm Host for it to be available early-midgame to deny Widow Mine aggression and still remain viable in for example ZvP?
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On September 06 2013 09:43 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 08:53 ChristianS wrote:On September 06 2013 07:46 usethis2 wrote:
Bomber did SCV pulls way back in his first GSL debut. IIRC, he did it with one-base 1/1/1. lol.
I've never liked any worker pull in any attack by any race. I think workers should be limited to mining and repairing. It's even more irritating that T is usually the only race that benefits from this BS. Calling workers to arm for defense is one thing but taking them to be a meat shield in battlefields is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
I hope more T's do this so that this will eventually get Blizzard's attention. Uh... why is it wrong? And what do you think Blizzard should do about it? Personally, I think it's awesome when a player looks at the game, sees the situation he's in and sees his opponent playing just a little bit too greedy, and says "In five minutes I'll be dead, but if I go right now, I can win. All-ins are exciting in SC2, just like they are in poker. Did you enjoy the 2 rax bunker into 4 rax + SCV all-in on Steppes of War or Xelnaga Fortress? Every single game, just because shitty T players can get easy wins against Z players? (need I remind you BitByBit) And greedy my ass. Most of these scv-pulls happens regardless of P's greed. For pete's sake, I most often see it when Toss is on 2 base and while T sets up his 3rd behind as an "insurance." (or perhaps as a deception)
But we're not on Steppes any more. All-ins aren't inherently bad, just if they happen every game. If a player finds a REALLY strong timing to hit, there's nothing wrong with that player doing it, acknowledging that it will probably only be a little while before the all-in gets solved and players learn how to respond to it. We're on reasonably sized maps, there's no apparent reason all-ins would have an unfair advantage, so what's wrong with a player laying everything on the line once in a while?
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On September 06 2013 09:51 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 09:43 usethis2 wrote:On September 06 2013 08:53 ChristianS wrote:On September 06 2013 07:46 usethis2 wrote:
Bomber did SCV pulls way back in his first GSL debut. IIRC, he did it with one-base 1/1/1. lol.
I've never liked any worker pull in any attack by any race. I think workers should be limited to mining and repairing. It's even more irritating that T is usually the only race that benefits from this BS. Calling workers to arm for defense is one thing but taking them to be a meat shield in battlefields is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
I hope more T's do this so that this will eventually get Blizzard's attention. Uh... why is it wrong? And what do you think Blizzard should do about it? Personally, I think it's awesome when a player looks at the game, sees the situation he's in and sees his opponent playing just a little bit too greedy, and says "In five minutes I'll be dead, but if I go right now, I can win. All-ins are exciting in SC2, just like they are in poker. Did you enjoy the 2 rax bunker into 4 rax + SCV all-in on Steppes of War or Xelnaga Fortress? Every single game, just because shitty T players can get easy wins against Z players? (need I remind you BitByBit) And greedy my ass. Most of these scv-pulls happens regardless of P's greed. For pete's sake, I most often see it when Toss is on 2 base and while T sets up his 3rd behind as an "insurance." (or perhaps as a deception) But we're not on Steppes any more. All-ins aren't inherently bad, just if they happen every game. If a player finds a REALLY strong timing to hit, there's nothing wrong with that player doing it, acknowledging that it will probably only be a little while before the all-in gets solved and players learn how to respond to it. We're on reasonably sized maps, there's no apparent reason all-ins would have an unfair advantage, so what's wrong with a player laying everything on the line once in a while?
It is easy to say "We're not on Steppes any more." when that very SCV all-ins WERE THE REASON for that map's removal. We don't know whether P players will come up with a solution or some external changes are required yet for certain - thus I hope more T players do this more often, so that whether it's something that P can deal with or something needs to be address can be determined sooner or later.
It's never a good sign when players start utilizing workers in their front lines.
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On September 06 2013 10:02 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 09:51 ChristianS wrote:On September 06 2013 09:43 usethis2 wrote:On September 06 2013 08:53 ChristianS wrote:On September 06 2013 07:46 usethis2 wrote:
Bomber did SCV pulls way back in his first GSL debut. IIRC, he did it with one-base 1/1/1. lol.
I've never liked any worker pull in any attack by any race. I think workers should be limited to mining and repairing. It's even more irritating that T is usually the only race that benefits from this BS. Calling workers to arm for defense is one thing but taking them to be a meat shield in battlefields is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
I hope more T's do this so that this will eventually get Blizzard's attention. Uh... why is it wrong? And what do you think Blizzard should do about it? Personally, I think it's awesome when a player looks at the game, sees the situation he's in and sees his opponent playing just a little bit too greedy, and says "In five minutes I'll be dead, but if I go right now, I can win. All-ins are exciting in SC2, just like they are in poker. Did you enjoy the 2 rax bunker into 4 rax + SCV all-in on Steppes of War or Xelnaga Fortress? Every single game, just because shitty T players can get easy wins against Z players? (need I remind you BitByBit) And greedy my ass. Most of these scv-pulls happens regardless of P's greed. For pete's sake, I most often see it when Toss is on 2 base and while T sets up his 3rd behind as an "insurance." (or perhaps as a deception) But we're not on Steppes any more. All-ins aren't inherently bad, just if they happen every game. If a player finds a REALLY strong timing to hit, there's nothing wrong with that player doing it, acknowledging that it will probably only be a little while before the all-in gets solved and players learn how to respond to it. We're on reasonably sized maps, there's no apparent reason all-ins would have an unfair advantage, so what's wrong with a player laying everything on the line once in a while? It is easy to say "We're not on Steppes any more." when that very SCV all-ins WERE THE REASON for that map's removal. We don't know whether P players will come up with a solution or some external changes are required yet for certain - thus I hope more T players do this more often, so that whether it's something that P can deal with or something needs to be address can be determined sooner or later. It's never a good sign when players start utilizing workers in their front lines.
If it's a bad sign, it's because it indicates Terran players are having a lot of trouble with lategame TvP, which seems to be borne out in win rates. Generally if some really strong all-in is discovered by a race, then there's a while where their win rates are quite high because of it, followed by a period where that all-in doesn't work any more and the race has to discover how to play in the new metagame. That doesn't mean all-ins are a bad thing to have in the game, just that they aren't a long-term solution to a match-up.
As far as I know, there are two big SCV pull timings in TvP. The first is an old WoL one against 2-base Protoss, where you push around ten minutes with medivacs, see if Protoss is going templar or colossi, and then push make vikings or ghosts accordingly and all-in before he has time to get the other. The other is a more recent one, often against 3-base or 4-base Protoss, in which you pull everything you have when you think he's probably teching towards storm and pray to God the research doesn't finish before he's dead. Both developed as a response to a mega-powerful Protoss lategame which Terrans had trouble combatting. But "he has really strong tech coming, so I should kill him before it finishes" is a solid strategy, and I don't know why it bothers you so much.
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Just to make it clear, I don't have a strong opinions on all-ins either way. Every race can do it, and it does add to the game for sure.
What I am against is the worker pulls, which usually (always?) happen to be Terran's. It is off-putting, and disgusting. I don't know how happy you would be if every race had such capability and every other game you see worker-train heading toward enemy bases in mid-game.
GSL suffered a dramatic viewership decreases after the Open Season 2~3 where every T pulled off scv all-in, and hot on the heels, GOM changed the map pools afterwards. If current TvP settles into SCV pull mid-game, somebody will do something, to save viewership. If it's T's lategame weakness is the issue, then maybe they will help T late game and I am not against it. You are simply biased and failed to see the point I am raising. I even said that T should do it even more so that we get to know what exactly the problem is in the match-up.
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On September 06 2013 11:34 usethis2 wrote:
Just to make it clear, I don't have a strong opinions on all-ins either way. Every race can do it, and it does add to the game for sure.
What I am against is the worker pulls, which usually (always?) happen to be Terran's. It is off-putting, and disgusting. I don't know how happy you would be if every race had such capability and every other game you see worker-train heading toward enemy bases in mid-game.
GSL suffered a dramatic viewership decreases after the Open Season 2~3 where every T pulled off scv all-in, and hot on the heels, GOM changed the map pools afterwards. If current TvP settles into SCV pull mid-game, somebody will do something, to save viewership. If it's T's lategame weakness is the issue, then maybe they will help T late game and I am not against it. You are simply biased and failed to see the point I am raising. I even said that T should do it even more so that we get to know what exactly the problem is in the match-up.
Every race does have the option. Terran generally benefits from it more, either because they're late enough in the game that they actually want to be sacking workers anyway, or just because Terran tends to have fragile, high-DPS units, so there's a greater benefit from having a lot of extra hit points in front of your army. I don't understand your aversion to them, though. You haven't given any reasons why worker pulls in particular are bad, you just said they're "off-putting" and "disgusting," which is just another way of saying they give you a bad feeling when you look at them. That's unfortunate for you, but I don't see why we should change the game because of it.
If you're okay with all-ins, why not pull workers on an all-in? The whole point is to end the game now rather than later, and having a lot of workers sitting around is only good if you're planning on the game continuing. It actually creates an interesting choice for the player: you can either do a weaker all-in (which might not kill your opponent outright) that you can transition out of, or do a stronger all-in which really lays everything on the line. Protoss and Zerg don't really have the same choice to make, because if a Protoss all-ins he is better off keeping the workers around and using the income to warp in reinforcements, and if a Zerg all-ins he is better off not making those drones in the first place, and making units instead.
So again, what is actually bad about worker pulls? Sure they shouldn't happen every game ideally or else they'll get tedious, but that's true of literally any strategy in the game. If they're overpowered (say, because your maps are tiny), then that should be changed, but I don't know that there's a lot of evidence of worker pulls being OP in TvP or in any other match-up, and our maps are reasonably sized now. 2-rax bunker rushes are some of the most exciting games in Starcraft, and they consistently have a bunch of SCVs pulled.
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On September 06 2013 12:21 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 11:34 usethis2 wrote:
Just to make it clear, I don't have a strong opinions on all-ins either way. Every race can do it, and it does add to the game for sure.
What I am against is the worker pulls, which usually (always?) happen to be Terran's. It is off-putting, and disgusting. I don't know how happy you would be if every race had such capability and every other game you see worker-train heading toward enemy bases in mid-game.
GSL suffered a dramatic viewership decreases after the Open Season 2~3 where every T pulled off scv all-in, and hot on the heels, GOM changed the map pools afterwards. If current TvP settles into SCV pull mid-game, somebody will do something, to save viewership. If it's T's lategame weakness is the issue, then maybe they will help T late game and I am not against it. You are simply biased and failed to see the point I am raising. I even said that T should do it even more so that we get to know what exactly the problem is in the match-up.
Every race does have the option. Terran generally benefits from it more, either because they're late enough in the game that they actually want to be sacking workers anyway, or just because Terran tends to have fragile, high-DPS units, so there's a greater benefit from having a lot of extra hit points in front of your army. I don't understand your aversion to them, though. You haven't given any reasons why worker pulls in particular are bad, you just said they're "off-putting" and "disgusting," which is just another way of saying they give you a bad feeling when you look at them. That's unfortunate for you, but I don't see why we should change the game because of it. If you're okay with all-ins, why not pull workers on an all-in? The whole point is to end the game now rather than later, and having a lot of workers sitting around is only good if you're planning on the game continuing. It actually creates an interesting choice for the player: you can either do a weaker all-in (which might not kill your opponent outright) that you can transition out of, or do a stronger all-in which really lays everything on the line. Protoss and Zerg don't really have the same choice to make, because if a Protoss all-ins he is better off keeping the workers around and using the income to warp in reinforcements, and if a Zerg all-ins he is better off not making those drones in the first place, and making units instead. So again, what is actually bad about worker pulls? Sure they shouldn't happen every game ideally or else they'll get tedious, but that's true of literally any strategy in the game. If they're overpowered (say, because your maps are tiny), then that should be changed, but I don't know that there's a lot of evidence of worker pulls being OP in TvP or in any other match-up, and our maps are reasonably sized now. 2-rax bunker rushes are some of the most exciting games in Starcraft, and they consistently have a bunch of SCVs pulled.
Protoss late game "all-ins" is them building up an excessive number of gateways to insta-remax.
Zerg build walls of slowly moving spine crawlers to build up a mobile "army" that moves at the speed of creep.
I think he mostly just doesn't find scv pulls "sexy"
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On September 06 2013 09:32 archwaykitten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 08:53 ChristianS wrote:On September 06 2013 07:46 usethis2 wrote:
Bomber did SCV pulls way back in his first GSL debut. IIRC, he did it with one-base 1/1/1. lol.
I've never liked any worker pull in any attack by any race. I think workers should be limited to mining and repairing. It's even more irritating that T is usually the only race that benefits from this BS. Calling workers to arm for defense is one thing but taking them to be a meat shield in battlefields is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
I hope more T's do this so that this will eventually get Blizzard's attention. Uh... why is it wrong? And what do you think Blizzard should do about it? Personally, I think it's awesome when a player looks at the game, sees the situation he's in and sees his opponent playing just a little bit too greedy, and says "In five minutes I'll be dead, but if I go right now, I can win. All-ins are exciting in SC2, just like they are in poker. The (potential) problem is that the tactic is not only used to punish greedy play. You're vulnerable to these scv pulls whenever your army falls a certain percent behind Terran's army. You can make a mistake and lose a colossi, or a warp prism drop can go badly, or your macro can falter for a bit.. and Terran can often immediately jump on the opportunity to pull scvs and end the game. It's not necessarily a bad thing to be punished harshly for your mistakes, but if one race consistently goes all in whenever it gets slightly ahead, lengthy back and forth games will have less chance to develop.
Well said.
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Yep if you look at TvP right now what's bothering me so much is that there is no back & forth. Nowadays there are just little pokes at 10 min with no significant dmg done anyway with the ultra defensive style of protoss with 4 observers and MSC. What we see is a protoss sitting and powering up and a terran try to get the right timing tu SCV pull.
If terran do not SCV pull he will die instantly vs a max 3/3 protoss army 200vs 200 and the game ends.
If terran SCV pull the game end at the end of that SCV pull either way.
I agree that SC2 is in a very bad state atm but if i have to choose between playing/watching TvZ or TvP i will always opt to TvZ because it's more back & forth and dynamic matchup with more tactical options.
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i don't understand why there is a discussion about SCVpull as an all in. Protoss has a lot of all ins and you have to scout them and defend them by changing up your gameplan.
Same goes when terran SCVpulls. scout it with an obs. warp in sentrys, delay , chrono colossus.don't see why you discuss it here. it might be boring, but so is a 8 gate imo
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Well it does sound kind of controversial to tell Terran players that they can play lategame, when this situation is so very similar to the Immortal all in or other timings designed to kill Zerg pre Broodlord tech in PvZ WoL.
However I'm not convinced YET that Terran cannot play lategame with Protoss.
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On September 06 2013 16:18 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 09:32 archwaykitten wrote:On September 06 2013 08:53 ChristianS wrote:On September 06 2013 07:46 usethis2 wrote:
Bomber did SCV pulls way back in his first GSL debut. IIRC, he did it with one-base 1/1/1. lol.
I've never liked any worker pull in any attack by any race. I think workers should be limited to mining and repairing. It's even more irritating that T is usually the only race that benefits from this BS. Calling workers to arm for defense is one thing but taking them to be a meat shield in battlefields is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
I hope more T's do this so that this will eventually get Blizzard's attention. Uh... why is it wrong? And what do you think Blizzard should do about it? Personally, I think it's awesome when a player looks at the game, sees the situation he's in and sees his opponent playing just a little bit too greedy, and says "In five minutes I'll be dead, but if I go right now, I can win. All-ins are exciting in SC2, just like they are in poker. The (potential) problem is that the tactic is not only used to punish greedy play. You're vulnerable to these scv pulls whenever your army falls a certain percent behind Terran's army. You can make a mistake and lose a colossi, or a warp prism drop can go badly, or your macro can falter for a bit.. and Terran can often immediately jump on the opportunity to pull scvs and end the game. It's not necessarily a bad thing to be punished harshly for your mistakes, but if one race consistently goes all in whenever it gets slightly ahead, lengthy back and forth games will have less chance to develop. Well said.
I don't know that's what usethis2 was getting at. But sure, as a spectator you'd like a lot games to go long instead of ending with an SCV pull. But that just means they shouldn't happen every game. If a Terran pulls SCVs and goes, he has to do game-ending damage, and he runs the risk of those SCVs getting force-fielded away from the army or having the clump of SCVs stormed or hit by an archon, and all of a sudden you have just your army and have to kill the Protoss before he can recover. So often you'd rather just push with your army, which allows for longer games.
I think SCV pulls also help to remedy something that tends to be a bit of a problem late-game in PvT, namely that after winning an engagement Protoss can generally kill a couple of Terran's bases (if not kill him outright), but after losing an engagement Protoss can warp in zealot reinforcements to make sure he doesn't actually lose anything important to the Terran's remaining army. Terran still gets some advantage from winning the engagement, since he's reset the Protoss's army so the next army will be weaker, but Terran still has to win two or three engagements before he can actually kill off bases or anything. An SCV pull gives you the chance to do game-ending damage after winning a fight, or else if you win an engagement you can pull SCVs and try to finish it while Protoss is off-balance.
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On September 06 2013 17:02 ntssauce wrote:
i don't understand why there is a discussion about SCVpull as an all in. Protoss has a lot of all ins and you have to scout them and defend them by changing up your gameplan.
Same goes when terran SCVpulls. scout it with an obs. warp in sentrys, delay , chrono colossus.don't see why you discuss it here. it might be boring, but so is a 8 gate imo
All-ins aren't bad. Seeing nearly nothing but all-ins is.
After Innovation lost to Parting and Naniwa in the late game, Korean terrans seem to have decided to stop allowing the game to proceed past the 15 minute mark. Both sides are complaining about the situation, Protosses because they get all-inned and Terrans because they must all-in. This is why it's more significant than a random 8 gate.
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I think proxy planetary fortress has to be a viable strategy too. If you see your opponent greedy you should be able to kill him right away with anything.
Sarcasm aside, dudes I know starcraft 2 is competitive, but there is lore and theme in the game or otherwise why would we care about graphics and all. And there are certain logical restrictions. Workers should be working and building, not attacking. Imagine how new spectators would look at it. Something like nazis attacked us with tractors and combines to tank our damage. SCV pull should be removed from the game once and for all. If its only viable chance to win protoss, then, game is broken and needs to be fixed.
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On September 06 2013 17:11 saddaromma wrote:
I think proxy planetary fortress has to be a viable strategy too. If you see your opponent greedy you should be able to kill him right away with anything.
Sarcasm aside, dudes I know starcraft 2 is competitive, but there is lore and theme in the game or otherwise why would we care about graphics and all. And there are certain logical restrictions. Workers should be working and building, not attacking. Imagine how new spectators would look at it. Something like nazis attacked us with tractors and combines to tank our damage. SCV pull should be removed from the game once and for all. If its only viable chance to win protoss, then, game is broken and needs to be fixed.
First of all, competition comes first, and lore comes second. That's the way it's always been, and that's the way it's always going to be. Second of all, if you wanted a lore justification it's more of a minute men call to arms type thing. It's not even unprecedented in Terran lore to repurpose non-military equipment for military purposes – remember that weird Drakken mining laser from the mission where you got siege tanks?
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On September 06 2013 17:11 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 17:02 ntssauce wrote:
i don't understand why there is a discussion about SCVpull as an all in. Protoss has a lot of all ins and you have to scout them and defend them by changing up your gameplan.
Same goes when terran SCVpulls. scout it with an obs. warp in sentrys, delay , chrono colossus.don't see why you discuss it here. it might be boring, but so is a 8 gate imo All-ins aren't bad. Seeing nearly nothing but all-ins is. After Innovation lost to Parting and Naniwa in the late game, Korean terrans seem to have decided to stop allowing the game to proceed past the 15 minute mark. Both sides are complaining about the situation, Protosses because they get all-inned and Terrans because they must all-in. This is why it's more significant than a random 8 gate.
So actually only terrans have the right to complain in this situation, because getting all inned is part of the game, but being forced to do one thing, because other things aren't viable, is just bad game design and not the players fault.
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On September 06 2013 17:24 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 17:11 saddaromma wrote:
I think proxy planetary fortress has to be a viable strategy too. If you see your opponent greedy you should be able to kill him right away with anything.
Sarcasm aside, dudes I know starcraft 2 is competitive, but there is lore and theme in the game or otherwise why would we care about graphics and all. And there are certain logical restrictions. Workers should be working and building, not attacking. Imagine how new spectators would look at it. Something like nazis attacked us with tractors and combines to tank our damage. SCV pull should be removed from the game once and for all. If its only viable chance to win protoss, then, game is broken and needs to be fixed. First of all, competition comes first, and lore comes second. That's the way it's always been, and that's the way it's always going to be. Second of all, if you wanted a lore justification it's more of a minute men call to arms type thing. It's not even unprecedented in Terran lore to repurpose non-military equipment for military purposes – remember that weird Drakken mining laser from the mission where you got siege tanks?
I wonder why blizzard ever fixed marine/scv allin. Mhhm, my best guess it was stupid. And midgame scv-all-in is no different, its stupid too. Ripley faught Alien with mechanic loader and now what, we gonna make all scvs fighters?
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What fix are you referring to? In what matchup? You can still marine/scv all-in in all matchups. 2-rax is alive and well. I'm not sure what people even want Blizzard to do about SCV all-in. You can't take workers' attack away without breaking the game, so any fixes would have to be really convoluted, like workers can only attack x distance from a town hall or something like that.
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EPT
