On September 06 2013 05:22 Ghanburighan wrote: Wish terrans still had that yellow scorpion's tail for construction...
On another note, TvP has reached an all-time low today in terms of entertainment value. SCV pulls galore. I think it will soon be the MU with the most frustrations on both sides.
I don't understand your comment.
Are you talking about how 2 terrans lost in a group stage or are you talking about the pre-storm timing trend Innovation invented?
Are you talking about the Maru v Rain match where Maru won macro games and rush games or are you talking about Innovation losing to Naniwa?
Please be more specific.
Pre-storm timing existed long before Innovation, if my memory serves me right. His point is that nowadays PvT works in 2 ways: 1. Terran SCV pulls. Boring, frustrating for toss (if terran wins, hahaha) and what not. Like soul train in broodlord-festor era. 2. Terran tries to play macro game. Either he pulls a TaeJa and completely and utterly outplays his opponent starting from early advantage ending with exploiting the style. Either toss messes up completely (Rain vs Maru on Star Station for reference) either toss wins (same series, game on Akilon). And it is frustrating for terran player.
vthree got it right. - the LRs were very sad today, no matter which side won. It isn't a balance issue yet, as so far we only have August win rates with 100 games with a bit of favour towards P. But July was more leaning towards T having the advantage. The only thing I know is not to believe Xenocider on balance (meta).
On September 06 2013 05:22 Ghanburighan wrote: Wish terrans still had that yellow scorpion's tail for construction...
On another note, TvP has reached an all-time low today in terms of entertainment value. SCV pulls galore. I think it will soon be the MU with the most frustrations on both sides.
I don't understand your comment.
Are you talking about how 2 terrans lost in a group stage or are you talking about the pre-storm timing trend Innovation invented?
Are you talking about the Maru v Rain match where Maru won macro games and rush games or are you talking about Innovation losing to Naniwa?
Please be more specific.
I think he is referring to Jjajki winning with SCV pulls and Mvp losing with SCV pulls. Whether it is balanced or not is not the main issue. It just isn't entertaining to watch over and over again.
Got it.
I don't really think its a problem with design. Pulling workers during the midgame looks no different to me than zerg saccing all their drones in the late game to make Spines.
Albeit the finality of the maneuver is annoying and makes much more sense during a big Mech push where they would theoretically be used to repair Thors/Tanks. Doing it with bio is just disheartening, although very movie-esque in the whole Soldiers rallying the farmers for the last stand against ____ monster/dictator/thug/protoss.
On September 06 2013 05:22 Ghanburighan wrote: Wish terrans still had that yellow scorpion's tail for construction...
On another note, TvP has reached an all-time low today in terms of entertainment value. SCV pulls galore. I think it will soon be the MU with the most frustrations on both sides.
I don't understand your comment.
Are you talking about how 2 terrans lost in a group stage or are you talking about the pre-storm timing trend Innovation invented?
Are you talking about the Maru v Rain match where Maru won macro games and rush games or are you talking about Innovation losing to Naniwa?
Please be more specific.
Pre-storm timing existed long before Innovation, if my memory serves me right. His point is that nowadays PvT works in 2 ways: 1. Terran SCV pulls. Boring, frustrating for toss (if terran wins, hahaha) and what not. Like soul train in broodlord-festor era. 2. Terran tries to play macro game. Either he pulls a TaeJa and completely and utterly outplays his opponent starting from early advantage ending with exploiting the style. Either toss messes up completely (Rain vs Maru on Star Station for reference) either toss wins (same series, game on Akilon). And it is frustrating for terran player.
Prestorm timing pulls was popularized by Innovation, before that it was simply a pre-storm medivac timing. Innovation was the one who started doing the midgame scv pull regularly (which is very different from some player doing it every now and then).
I do agree with the rest of your analysis overall.
On September 06 2013 05:06 aZealot wrote: You know the original SC1 WOL Battle Report was on slower speed? I think this is it:
Apparently the game speed was increased after feedback from the community. If so, that would be ironic yet unsurprising. I think there are virtues to playing the game at a slightly slower speed, but at the same time the speed of the game does impose a sort of mechanical requirement to play - especially at the highest level. Although it can be frustrating too, of course.
It's very entertaining watching that video, and also the IMBA league casts that Husky did. The level of play in that game was beyond awful though, yet those were the strongest two players Blizzard had available to them. It's a bit worrisome.
I don't know if I like the slightly slower pace, but I didn't mind it so much and given that I'm used to a higher speed I think that's a compliment in itself. I think the current speed is set at 1.4x normal, I would guess that the speed used in the battle report is 1.2x? However, we don't know if the game was played on that speed, since you can have a different replay speed versus game speed. And I think that you need to have contrasting experiences with various different settings while actually playing to be able to render any sort of meaningful judgment on this.
I used to think that WC3 was slightly too slow, that's why I (pre-beta) briefly campaigned for the ability to show replays in SC2 at maybe 50% faster than the actual game, since I thought that something like that would have been preferable for YouTube casts. I was only knowledgeable about the youtube scene for WC3 and BW and not about the e-sports scene, I guess nowadays the thought of watching a game at higher speeds seems silly, but maybe it also speaks to how fast the game really plays.
On September 06 2013 06:11 Ghanburighan wrote: vthree got it right. - the LRs were very sad today, no matter which side won. It isn't a balance issue yet, as so far we only have August win rates with 100 games with a bit of favour towards P. But July was more leaning towards T having the advantage. The only thing I know is not to believe Xenocider on balance (meta).
On another note, Happy Birthday TheDwf!
What did he say?
Thanks!
On September 06 2013 06:20 Thieving Magpie wrote: Prestorm timing pulls was popularized by Innovation, before that it was simply a pre-storm medivac timing. Innovation was the one who started doing the midgame scv pull regularly (which is very different from some player doing it every now and then).
Bomber and Mvp were already using them regularly in WoL. Don't know precisely who started the trend but it was certainly not Bogus.
Apparently the game speed was increased after feedback from the community. If so, that would be ironic yet unsurprising. I think there are virtues to playing the game at a slightly slower speed, but at the same time the speed of the game does impose a sort of mechanical requirement to play - especially at the highest level. Although it can be frustrating too, of course.
It's very entertaining watching that video, and also the IMBA league casts that Husky did. The level of play in that game was beyond awful though, yet those were the strongest two players Blizzard had available to them. It's a bit worrisome.
I don't know if I like the slightly slower pace, but I didn't mind it so much and given that I'm used to a higher speed I think that's a compliment in itself. I think the current speed is set at 1.4x normal, I would guess that the speed used in the battle report is 1.2x? However, we don't know if the game was played on that speed, since you can have a different replay speed versus game speed. And I think that you need to have contrasting experiences with various different settings while actually playing to be able to render any sort of meaningful judgment on this.
I used to think that WC3 was slightly too slow, that's why I (pre-beta) briefly campaigned for the ability to show replays in SC2 at maybe 50% faster than the actual game, since I thought that something like that would have been preferable for YouTube casts. I was only knowledgeable about the youtube scene for WC3 and BW and not about the e-sports scene, I guess nowadays the thought of watching a game at higher speeds seems silly, but maybe it also speaks to how fast the game really plays.
Why is it worrisome? Even on release WOL pro play was poor compared to play today. The game has grown over the last three years, and players have gotten better and the skill level has risen.
As to game speed, I am in two minds about it. I can see its good points and bad points. And even then finding the best speed setting is also important. The speed of SC2 is one of its attractions, but it is also one reason why playing it "casually" can be difficult at times. You have to be "on" all the time. It may be an area worth exploring though, if necessary. It's certainly more attractive, to me, than tinkering with unit selection, pathing etc. If a slower speed is implemented, some tweaks will be necessary, though, such as nerfing Protoss FF or making it more skill intensive (such as the way Nony recommended in the last SoTG) as good Forcefields will be easier to do at a slower speed setting.
Well, let's say that they had MC on their staff to practice abusive potential of abilities 40 hours per week. Would they have left forcefield in the game in that case?
On September 06 2013 07:06 Grumbels wrote: Well, let's say that they had MC on their staff to practice abusive potential of abilities 40 hours per week. Would they have left forcefield in the game in that case?
Sorry, with all due respect, that's a conjectural question to which there is no serious answer.
On September 06 2013 06:11 Ghanburighan wrote: vthree got it right. - the LRs were very sad today, no matter which side won. It isn't a balance issue yet, as so far we only have August win rates with 100 games with a bit of favour towards P. But July was more leaning towards T having the advantage. The only thing I know is not to believe Xenocider on balance (meta).
On September 06 2013 06:20 Thieving Magpie wrote: Prestorm timing pulls was popularized by Innovation, before that it was simply a pre-storm medivac timing. Innovation was the one who started doing the midgame scv pull regularly (which is very different from some player doing it every now and then).
Bomber and Mvp were already using them regularly in WoL. Don't know precisely who started the trend but it was certainly not Bogus.
In Meta 13, he said that TvP is T favoured in Maru style. For details, see below after 30.45
Bomber did SCV pulls way back in his first GSL debut. IIRC, he did it with one-base 1/1/1. lol.
I've never liked any worker pull in any attack by any race. I think workers should be limited to mining and repairing. It's even more irritating that T is usually the only race that benefits from this BS. Calling workers to arm for defense is one thing but taking them to be a meat shield in battlefields is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
I hope more T's do this so that this will eventually get Blizzard's attention.
On September 06 2013 07:06 Grumbels wrote: Well, let's say that they had MC on their staff to practice abusive potential of abilities 40 hours per week. Would they have left forcefield in the game in that case?
Sorry, with all due respect, that's a conjectural question to which there is no serious answer.
Took an MTG pro a month to get cards banned before Urza's Saga was even released.
On September 06 2013 07:46 usethis2 wrote: Bomber did SCV pulls way back in his first GSL debut. IIRC, he did it with one-base 1/1/1. lol.
I've never liked any worker pull in any attack by any race. I think workers should be limited to mining and repairing. It's even more irritating that T is usually the only race that benefits from this BS. Calling workers to arm for defense is one thing but taking them to be a meat shield in battlefields is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
I hope more T's do this so that this will eventually get Blizzard's attention.
Very few times pre-bogus was the plan to have a strong macro game be ended quickly by an SCV pull.
On September 06 2013 07:46 usethis2 wrote: Bomber did SCV pulls way back in his first GSL debut. IIRC, he did it with one-base 1/1/1. lol.
I've never liked any worker pull in any attack by any race. I think workers should be limited to mining and repairing. It's even more irritating that T is usually the only race that benefits from this BS. Calling workers to arm for defense is one thing but taking them to be a meat shield in battlefields is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
I hope more T's do this so that this will eventually get Blizzard's attention.
Very few times pre-bogus was the plan to have a strong macro game be ended quickly by an SCV pull.
Mvp made frequent use of it towards the end of WoL, particularly during the season he won against Squirtle. I don't know who invented it but he's definitely the guy who made it famous.
On September 06 2013 07:46 usethis2 wrote: Bomber did SCV pulls way back in his first GSL debut. IIRC, he did it with one-base 1/1/1. lol.
I've never liked any worker pull in any attack by any race. I think workers should be limited to mining and repairing. It's even more irritating that T is usually the only race that benefits from this BS. Calling workers to arm for defense is one thing but taking them to be a meat shield in battlefields is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
I hope more T's do this so that this will eventually get Blizzard's attention.
Uh... why is it wrong? And what do you think Blizzard should do about it? Personally, I think it's awesome when a player looks at the game, sees the situation he's in and sees his opponent playing just a little bit too greedy, and says "In five minutes I'll be dead, but if I go right now, I can win. All-ins are exciting in SC2, just like they are in poker.
EPT
