|
On September 06 2013 17:37 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 17:24 ChristianS wrote:On September 06 2013 17:11 saddaromma wrote:
I think proxy planetary fortress has to be a viable strategy too. If you see your opponent greedy you should be able to kill him right away with anything.
Sarcasm aside, dudes I know starcraft 2 is competitive, but there is lore and theme in the game or otherwise why would we care about graphics and all. And there are certain logical restrictions. Workers should be working and building, not attacking. Imagine how new spectators would look at it. Something like nazis attacked us with tractors and combines to tank our damage. SCV pull should be removed from the game once and for all. If its only viable chance to win protoss, then, game is broken and needs to be fixed. First of all, competition comes first, and lore comes second. That's the way it's always been, and that's the way it's always going to be. Second of all, if you wanted a lore justification it's more of a minute men call to arms type thing. It's not even unprecedented in Terran lore to repurpose non-military equipment for military purposes – remember that weird Drakken mining laser from the mission where you got siege tanks? I wonder why blizzard ever fixed marine/scv allin. Mhhm, my best guess it was stupid. And midgame scv-all-in is no different, its stupid too. Ripley faught Alien with mechanic loader and now what, we gonna make all scvs fighters?
They fixed it? When? You mean the 5second BT nerf on barracks after the problem was solved by elimination of stupid maps?
|
On September 06 2013 17:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 17:37 saddaromma wrote:On September 06 2013 17:24 ChristianS wrote:On September 06 2013 17:11 saddaromma wrote:
I think proxy planetary fortress has to be a viable strategy too. If you see your opponent greedy you should be able to kill him right away with anything.
Sarcasm aside, dudes I know starcraft 2 is competitive, but there is lore and theme in the game or otherwise why would we care about graphics and all. And there are certain logical restrictions. Workers should be working and building, not attacking. Imagine how new spectators would look at it. Something like nazis attacked us with tractors and combines to tank our damage. SCV pull should be removed from the game once and for all. If its only viable chance to win protoss, then, game is broken and needs to be fixed. First of all, competition comes first, and lore comes second. That's the way it's always been, and that's the way it's always going to be. Second of all, if you wanted a lore justification it's more of a minute men call to arms type thing. It's not even unprecedented in Terran lore to repurpose non-military equipment for military purposes – remember that weird Drakken mining laser from the mission where you got siege tanks? I wonder why blizzard ever fixed marine/scv allin. Mhhm, my best guess it was stupid. And midgame scv-all-in is no different, its stupid too. Ripley faught Alien with mechanic loader and now what, we gonna make all scvs fighters? They fixed it? When? You mean the 5second BT nerf on barracks after the problem was solved by elimination of stupid maps?
SCV 60hp to 45hp. Its like the biggest nerf in the game.
On September 06 2013 17:42 ChristianS wrote:
What fix are you referring to? In what matchup? You can still marine/scv all-in in all matchups. 2-rax is alive and well. I'm not sure what people even want Blizzard to do about SCV all-in. You can't take workers' attack away without breaking the game, so any fixes would have to be really convoluted, like workers can only attack x distance from a town hall or something like that.
Who knows, maybe the whole game is fucked up. Even protoss president agrees on that. I say make a huge overhaul of the game, like Riot did between season 2 and 3 which helped LoL a lot.
|
Wait, we're going back that far? Yeah, okay. They "fixed" it, then, I suppose. Not the biggest nerf in the game (original forcefield and roach were both waaaay more OP), but certainly significant. But they didn't remove it, either. People still marine/scv all-in all the time, with a fair amount of success.
Edit: On September 06 2013 17:46 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 17:42 ChristianS wrote:
What fix are you referring to? In what matchup? You can still marine/scv all-in in all matchups. 2-rax is alive and well. I'm not sure what people even want Blizzard to do about SCV all-in. You can't take workers' attack away without breaking the game, so any fixes would have to be really convoluted, like workers can only attack x distance from a town hall or something like that. Who knows, maybe the whole game is fucked up. Even protoss president agrees on that. I say make a huge overhaul of the game, like Riot did between season 2 and 3 which helped LoL a lot.
Uh, that's helpful. For the record, MC said that a couple matchups are getting stale and need something new to maintain viewers, which is a little more constructive than "the whole game is fucked up." And plenty of people want to overhaul the game, but what possible overhaul would make it impossible to worker pull all-in?
|
What ChristianS wrote...
It was in the beta, so it technically wasn't even a "nerf in the game" as it was not a game at this point, just a beta-test for a game to come.
|
On September 06 2013 17:49 ChristianS wrote:Wait, we're going back that far? Yeah, okay. They "fixed" it, then, I suppose. Not the biggest nerf in the game (original forcefield and roach were both waaaay more OP), but certainly significant. But they didn't remove it, either. People still marine/scv all-in all the time, with a fair amount of success. Edit: Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 17:46 saddaromma wrote:On September 06 2013 17:42 ChristianS wrote:
What fix are you referring to? In what matchup? You can still marine/scv all-in in all matchups. 2-rax is alive and well. I'm not sure what people even want Blizzard to do about SCV all-in. You can't take workers' attack away without breaking the game, so any fixes would have to be really convoluted, like workers can only attack x distance from a town hall or something like that. Who knows, maybe the whole game is fucked up. Even protoss president agrees on that. I say make a huge overhaul of the game, like Riot did between season 2 and 3 which helped LoL a lot. Uh, that's helpful. For the record, MC said that a couple matchups are getting stale and need something new to maintain viewers, which is a little more constructive than "the whole game is fucked up." And plenty of people want to overhaul the game, but what possible overhaul would make it impossible to worker pull all-in?
For the record, I said "maybe the whole game is fucked up.". All I say is, SCV-allin is stupid and needs to be fixed. If it'll make Protoss OP. Then be it, find a way to equalize the matchup (nerf Protoss, buff terran). But having a game where workers majorly decide the outcome of a battle is not "logical" and counter-intuitive. Starcraft 2 is already struggling to get viewers, and SCV-all-in is definitely not helping.
|
Again, what fix? Unless you just mean buff Terran lategame so he doesn't have to any more, that's fine. But I can't imagine a single reasonable change that would make them impossible, and I don't see why we need to. SCV all-ins are probably fine for viewers, anyway. They've been around since the beginning of Brood War, and they're generally very exciting and action-packed games. SCV all-ins are not why viewers are declining.
|
On September 06 2013 18:07 ChristianS wrote:
Again, what fix? Unless you just mean buff Terran lategame so he doesn't have to any more, that's fine. But I can't imagine a single reasonable change that would make them impossible, and I don't see why we need to. SCV all-ins are probably fine for viewers, anyway. They've been around since the beginning of Brood War, and they're generally very exciting and action-packed games. SCV all-ins are not why viewers are declining.
I don't know what fix. Its Blizzard's job to fix it.
And since when you're the expert of sc2 viewership?
|
Doesn't take an expert to know that if SCV all-ins have been in Starcraft since 1998, then they probably aren't the cause of viewership declining in 2013. What, did viewers just wake up one day and say "You know this think that's been around for 15 years? I just realized, it's BULLSHIT!"
|
On September 06 2013 14:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 12:21 ChristianS wrote:On September 06 2013 11:34 usethis2 wrote:
Just to make it clear, I don't have a strong opinions on all-ins either way. Every race can do it, and it does add to the game for sure.
What I am against is the worker pulls, which usually (always?) happen to be Terran's. It is off-putting, and disgusting. I don't know how happy you would be if every race had such capability and every other game you see worker-train heading toward enemy bases in mid-game.
GSL suffered a dramatic viewership decreases after the Open Season 2~3 where every T pulled off scv all-in, and hot on the heels, GOM changed the map pools afterwards. If current TvP settles into SCV pull mid-game, somebody will do something, to save viewership. If it's T's lategame weakness is the issue, then maybe they will help T late game and I am not against it. You are simply biased and failed to see the point I am raising. I even said that T should do it even more so that we get to know what exactly the problem is in the match-up.
Every race does have the option. Terran generally benefits from it more, either because they're late enough in the game that they actually want to be sacking workers anyway, or just because Terran tends to have fragile, high-DPS units, so there's a greater benefit from having a lot of extra hit points in front of your army. I don't understand your aversion to them, though. You haven't given any reasons why worker pulls in particular are bad, you just said they're "off-putting" and "disgusting," which is just another way of saying they give you a bad feeling when you look at them. That's unfortunate for you, but I don't see why we should change the game because of it. If you're okay with all-ins, why not pull workers on an all-in? The whole point is to end the game now rather than later, and having a lot of workers sitting around is only good if you're planning on the game continuing. It actually creates an interesting choice for the player: you can either do a weaker all-in (which might not kill your opponent outright) that you can transition out of, or do a stronger all-in which really lays everything on the line. Protoss and Zerg don't really have the same choice to make, because if a Protoss all-ins he is better off keeping the workers around and using the income to warp in reinforcements, and if a Zerg all-ins he is better off not making those drones in the first place, and making units instead. So again, what is actually bad about worker pulls? Sure they shouldn't happen every game ideally or else they'll get tedious, but that's true of literally any strategy in the game. If they're overpowered (say, because your maps are tiny), then that should be changed, but I don't know that there's a lot of evidence of worker pulls being OP in TvP or in any other match-up, and our maps are reasonably sized now. 2-rax bunker rushes are some of the most exciting games in Starcraft, and they consistently have a bunch of SCVs pulled. Protoss late game "all-ins" is them building up an excessive number of gateways to insta-remax. Zerg build walls of slowly moving spine crawlers to build up a mobile "army" that moves at the speed of creep. I think he mostly just doesn't find scv pulls "sexy"
I actually agree with you!
Aside from Protoss, both T & Z have history of sacrificing their workers in the mid to late game as either meat shields for their ranged army or a mobile fortress (Z's late game spine forest), no one really needs 80 workers once the main and natural are mines out. Protoss have yet to explore integrating probe pulls into their comps given their gateway units aren't exactly amazing (marine vs. stalker, marauder vs. immortal). But it's unexplored territory, so we really can't comment.
Knights have conscripted farmers (peasants) in their battles for centuries. Even HoMM had them as a basic unit, I've run peasant armies that can one shot dragons. Good times.
TL;DR calm your horses, son, SCV pulls are not the end of the world.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 06 2013 20:08 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 14:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 06 2013 12:21 ChristianS wrote:On September 06 2013 11:34 usethis2 wrote:
Just to make it clear, I don't have a strong opinions on all-ins either way. Every race can do it, and it does add to the game for sure.
What I am against is the worker pulls, which usually (always?) happen to be Terran's. It is off-putting, and disgusting. I don't know how happy you would be if every race had such capability and every other game you see worker-train heading toward enemy bases in mid-game.
GSL suffered a dramatic viewership decreases after the Open Season 2~3 where every T pulled off scv all-in, and hot on the heels, GOM changed the map pools afterwards. If current TvP settles into SCV pull mid-game, somebody will do something, to save viewership. If it's T's lategame weakness is the issue, then maybe they will help T late game and I am not against it. You are simply biased and failed to see the point I am raising. I even said that T should do it even more so that we get to know what exactly the problem is in the match-up.
Every race does have the option. Terran generally benefits from it more, either because they're late enough in the game that they actually want to be sacking workers anyway, or just because Terran tends to have fragile, high-DPS units, so there's a greater benefit from having a lot of extra hit points in front of your army. I don't understand your aversion to them, though. You haven't given any reasons why worker pulls in particular are bad, you just said they're "off-putting" and "disgusting," which is just another way of saying they give you a bad feeling when you look at them. That's unfortunate for you, but I don't see why we should change the game because of it. If you're okay with all-ins, why not pull workers on an all-in? The whole point is to end the game now rather than later, and having a lot of workers sitting around is only good if you're planning on the game continuing. It actually creates an interesting choice for the player: you can either do a weaker all-in (which might not kill your opponent outright) that you can transition out of, or do a stronger all-in which really lays everything on the line. Protoss and Zerg don't really have the same choice to make, because if a Protoss all-ins he is better off keeping the workers around and using the income to warp in reinforcements, and if a Zerg all-ins he is better off not making those drones in the first place, and making units instead. So again, what is actually bad about worker pulls? Sure they shouldn't happen every game ideally or else they'll get tedious, but that's true of literally any strategy in the game. If they're overpowered (say, because your maps are tiny), then that should be changed, but I don't know that there's a lot of evidence of worker pulls being OP in TvP or in any other match-up, and our maps are reasonably sized now. 2-rax bunker rushes are some of the most exciting games in Starcraft, and they consistently have a bunch of SCVs pulled. Protoss late game "all-ins" is them building up an excessive number of gateways to insta-remax. Zerg build walls of slowly moving spine crawlers to build up a mobile "army" that moves at the speed of creep. I think he mostly just doesn't find scv pulls "sexy" I actually agree with you! Aside from Protoss, both T & Z have history of sacrificing their workers in the mid to late game as either meat shields for their ranged army or a mobile fortress (Z's late game spine forest), no one really needs 80 workers once the main and natural are mines out. Protoss have yet to explore integrating probe pulls into their comps given their gateway units aren't exactly amazing (marine vs. stalker, marauder vs. immortal). But it's unexplored territory, so we really can't comment. Knights have conscripted farmers (peasants) in their battles for centuries. Even HoMM had them as a basic unit, I've run peasant armies that can one shot dragons. Good times. TL;DR calm your horses, son, SCV pulls are not the end of the world.
Probe pulls? WHAT!? SCVs at least work as melee tank relatively well, and drones simply die when building anything. P
|
On September 06 2013 20:08 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 14:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 06 2013 12:21 ChristianS wrote:On September 06 2013 11:34 usethis2 wrote:
Just to make it clear, I don't have a strong opinions on all-ins either way. Every race can do it, and it does add to the game for sure.
What I am against is the worker pulls, which usually (always?) happen to be Terran's. It is off-putting, and disgusting. I don't know how happy you would be if every race had such capability and every other game you see worker-train heading toward enemy bases in mid-game.
GSL suffered a dramatic viewership decreases after the Open Season 2~3 where every T pulled off scv all-in, and hot on the heels, GOM changed the map pools afterwards. If current TvP settles into SCV pull mid-game, somebody will do something, to save viewership. If it's T's lategame weakness is the issue, then maybe they will help T late game and I am not against it. You are simply biased and failed to see the point I am raising. I even said that T should do it even more so that we get to know what exactly the problem is in the match-up.
Every race does have the option. Terran generally benefits from it more, either because they're late enough in the game that they actually want to be sacking workers anyway, or just because Terran tends to have fragile, high-DPS units, so there's a greater benefit from having a lot of extra hit points in front of your army. I don't understand your aversion to them, though. You haven't given any reasons why worker pulls in particular are bad, you just said they're "off-putting" and "disgusting," which is just another way of saying they give you a bad feeling when you look at them. That's unfortunate for you, but I don't see why we should change the game because of it. If you're okay with all-ins, why not pull workers on an all-in? The whole point is to end the game now rather than later, and having a lot of workers sitting around is only good if you're planning on the game continuing. It actually creates an interesting choice for the player: you can either do a weaker all-in (which might not kill your opponent outright) that you can transition out of, or do a stronger all-in which really lays everything on the line. Protoss and Zerg don't really have the same choice to make, because if a Protoss all-ins he is better off keeping the workers around and using the income to warp in reinforcements, and if a Zerg all-ins he is better off not making those drones in the first place, and making units instead. So again, what is actually bad about worker pulls? Sure they shouldn't happen every game ideally or else they'll get tedious, but that's true of literally any strategy in the game. If they're overpowered (say, because your maps are tiny), then that should be changed, but I don't know that there's a lot of evidence of worker pulls being OP in TvP or in any other match-up, and our maps are reasonably sized now. 2-rax bunker rushes are some of the most exciting games in Starcraft, and they consistently have a bunch of SCVs pulled. Protoss late game "all-ins" is them building up an excessive number of gateways to insta-remax. Zerg build walls of slowly moving spine crawlers to build up a mobile "army" that moves at the speed of creep. I think he mostly just doesn't find scv pulls "sexy" I actually agree with you! Aside from Protoss, both T & Z have history of sacrificing their workers in the mid to late game as either meat shields for their ranged army or a mobile fortress (Z's late game spine forest), no one really needs 80 workers once the main and natural are mines out. Protoss have yet to explore integrating probe pulls into their comps given their gateway units aren't exactly amazing (marine vs. stalker, marauder vs. immortal). But it's unexplored territory, so we really can't comment. Knights have conscripted farmers (peasants) in their battles for centuries. Even HoMM had them as a basic unit, I've run peasant armies that can one shot dragons. Good times. TL;DR calm your horses, son, SCV pulls are not the end of the world.
you miss the fact that workers are getting pulled for a timing attack in order to straight win the game with the advantage of heaving some dozens of scvs and not because they are not needed for mining. Probably it is too strong but I cant imagine anything that could fix it right.
What you are talking about is when in lategame a terran doesnt need his workers anymore because he can replace them with mules or there are just not enaugh mining bases anymore. Then workers get sacraficed. Well yes its completely different from what is being talked about here.
I still wonder why almost all terrans need to defend every single mechanic of the terran race. While all others mostly admit that certain things could be improved or dont work so well, however there are always the same terrans that need to defend everything terran does.
SCV all-ins are defenitely detrimental to the game. When I watched bombers all-ins I just thought it is wasted time. I in no way want to watch games where a race can win with such an easy mechanic that is so hard to defend. And there is basically nothing that a protoss can do about it if the terran hits the timing perfectly what is not that hard for progamers that train that stuff every day.
|
About ZvT, I'm fucking impressed by what DRG has been able to do today against Innovation, I didn't think it will be like that and that I would witness such legit win, in macro games against terran, but the overseer buff may have been just enough. Well, I'm not entirely sure yet that the match up has been totally fixed from a balance point of view, but it seems far more fair right now, the buff of the overseer has more consequence than I initially thought.
|
I don't get why everyone is so intent on attributing so much of DRG's wins to the Overseer buff while the deciding factors in the two games he won were elsewhere.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 07 2013 00:26 TheDwf wrote:
I don't get why everyone is so intent on attributing so much of DRG's wins to the Overseer buff while the deciding factors in the two games he won were elsewhere.
Shhh, zergs do not build static defense. Also, i wait to see those replays released. Just to see how much more Innovation was cost-effective there :D
|
I didnt see the games yet but nothing makes me wonder about innovations wins/loses anymore. He seems just unstable to me after all and doesnt necessarily deserve the rank of this most outstanding very best, sophisticated player in the world that some people have given him, especially here in the forums. Also the argument that only 2 players, flash & innovation, can pull this TvZ style off was obviously wrong.
But I cant imagine that the overseer buff does have alot of effect on the outcome on games in general too.
The basic problem of simply having the exact same things going on in every TvZ stays the same. And this situation keeps being extremely frustrating and discouraging for zergs.
In fact Z and T have reversed roles. T should be the defensive one that Z throws units against and T should have an immobile but strong lategame army that is getting way too strong if the Z lets him, not the way it is right now. T has all the tools to play a defensive style. In order to get this, mech must become indispensible for terran play. Therefore mech needs to get buffed and Z needs to be given something that counters bio/mine a tiny bit better than now.
|
during that first innovation drg game,
they showed the resource income panel for the players.
it was kind of disgusting to see innovation basically not giving a shit about mining gas (the bar was literally all in favor of drg).
that is definitely not good game design if all terran has to do is make marines and a handful of 25gas mines and medivacs.
|
On September 07 2013 01:02 a176 wrote:
during that first innovation drg game,
they showed the resource income panel for the players.
it was kind of disgusting to see innovation basically not giving a shit about mining gas (the bar was literally all in favor of drg).
that is definitely not good game design if all terran has to do is make marines and a handful of 25gas mines and medivacs.
When will people realised being mineral starved is not a good situation. A balanced mineral-gas requirement is superior. You can have better saturation on same amount of bases and your bases mine out later with same number of workers active.
|
On September 07 2013 00:26 TheDwf wrote:
I don't get why everyone is so intent on attributing so much of DRG's wins to the Overseer buff while the deciding factors in the two games he won were elsewhere.
Not that it would have been impossible before the overseer buff, but those mutalisk/zergling counterattacks that he kept on doing benefit greatly from that buff. Before that you'd take a huge risk flying a bigger distance with mutalisks, especially around and over bases, because your overseers would simply lag behind.
But yeah, his win is mostly just a combination of amazing macro, creep spread, control and a great gameplan that didn't involve some huge midgame baneling timing. Instead he just focused on eventually starving INnoVation.
Edit: His gameplay was very similar to Sleep and Scarlett'. Granted with other units, but same strategy. Try to deny the 4th or 5th base while holding your own.
On September 07 2013 01:02 a176 wrote:
during that first innovation drg game,
they showed the resource income panel for the players.
it was kind of disgusting to see innovation basically not giving a shit about mining gas (the bar was literally all in favor of drg).
that is definitely not good game design if all terran has to do is make marines and a handful of 25gas mines and medivacs.
Both players had 3-4k gas banks. DRG should have pulled out of gas as well, as he was low on minerals!
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 07 2013 01:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 01:02 a176 wrote:
during that first innovation drg game,
they showed the resource income panel for the players.
it was kind of disgusting to see innovation basically not giving a shit about mining gas (the bar was literally all in favor of drg).
that is definitely not good game design if all terran has to do is make marines and a handful of 25gas mines and medivacs. Both players had 3-4k gas banks. DRG should have pulled out of gas as well, as he was low on minerals!
When i have seen DRG's gas bank i was like: WTF, HOW IS IT POSSIBLE WITH SO MANY BANELINGS!?
|
On September 07 2013 01:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 00:26 TheDwf wrote:
I don't get why everyone is so intent on attributing so much of DRG's wins to the Overseer buff while the deciding factors in the two games he won were elsewhere. Not that it would have been impossible before the overseer buff, but those mutalisk/zergling counterattacks that he kept on doing benefit greatly from that buff. Before that you'd take a huge risk flying a bigger distance with mutalisks, especially around and over bases, because your overseers would simply lag behind. But yeah, his win is mostly just a combination of amazing macro, creep spread, control and a great gameplan that didn't involve some huge midgame baneling timing. Instead he just focused on eventually starving INnoVation. Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 01:02 a176 wrote:
during that first innovation drg game,
they showed the resource income panel for the players.
it was kind of disgusting to see innovation basically not giving a shit about mining gas (the bar was literally all in favor of drg).
that is definitely not good game design if all terran has to do is make marines and a handful of 25gas mines and medivacs. Both players had 3-4k gas banks. DRG should have pulled out of gas as well, as he was low on minerals!
drg basically kept all his mutas alive for most of the game, so he was able to bank a lot of gas while expanding like a mofo.
but i wasn't talking about gas banked, i was talking about gas income.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
