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On September 07 2013 01:04 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 01:02 a176 wrote:
during that first innovation drg game,
they showed the resource income panel for the players.
it was kind of disgusting to see innovation basically not giving a shit about mining gas (the bar was literally all in favor of drg).
that is definitely not good game design if all terran has to do is make marines and a handful of 25gas mines and medivacs. When will people realised being mineral starved is not a good situation. A balanced mineral-gas requirement is superior. You can have better saturation on same amount of bases and your bases mine out later with same number of workers active.
hi naruto, it has been explained already that it is wrong what you say. Terrans dont need more minerals because they need less gas. Everything terrans need focuses on minerals. Zergs could do this too but their army would be extremely weak (ling only, roach only).
Zergs need to balance out how much minerals they must spend on mineral only units and how much minerals they can spend on gas units like banelings/mutalisks.
Terrans dont need to balance out anything there. They basically have enaugh gas for any gas unit that they want to build and at the same time they can build a strong force with only minerals that zergs must counter with gas heavy units. Terran doesnt need to counter anything of zerg with gas heavy units. So there is no limitation with having not enaugh gas to build a certain strong kind of unit for terran but instead they ralley their strongest possible combination of units, that needs minerals only over the map (cheap & cost effective units: marines(50), maurauder(100), mines(75)). If any of the units a terran wanted to use were limiting terran by gas they could not build them all the time and would have to switch to some weaker units that they do not prefer to build. Therefore the terran situation is superior.
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@LSN , Naruto - what either of you are describing is really not a balance issue though if you think about it. They are 2 different races with different macro mechanics. Zerg allows you to build up to get more gas heavy units where terran has to be like a step ladder and has to commit to a play style with production facilities. With how fast paced Starcraft 2 is if you try to tech switch like zerg does its not a commitment of 1 building.... its a commitment of 3-5 on top of making units to just stay alive and stay in the game......
This is why there are different races though .... otherwise every race would be the same and who wants to play starcraft with everyone exactly the same race?
If you don't like your races mechanic and you envy another maybe you should think about switching races.....
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the point about the gas issue is that gas is and always has been a decisive factor about how many high tech units you can build at the same time. This for protoss e.g. is colossus/templar at the same time. Zergs cant go muta/infestor at the same time without having enaugh gas for it.
Now you gotta see that terran has these gas heavy units but in the current metagame terrans only want to build these mineral units, because they counter all what zergs do.
Zergs would like to build muta+infestor+baneling + ultralisk only probably but they cant, because they dont have enaugh gas. Killing some of these gas heavy units hurts the zerg badly. Killing an additional gas expansion of the zerg hurts the zerg badly. Contrary to this killing a medivac costs the terran instead of 100 mins and 100 gas only the 100 minerals because he has anyway banked enaugh gas to rebuild it and does not want to use it on anything else than building new medivacs. Losing an expansion doesnt hurt a terran that much because mules can be dropped elsewhere until it is rebuild.
If zergs lose an infestor, they lose 100/150 and not 100/0 like the terran in this case. 100/0 would make one infestor equal in value with 4 zerglings but in fact an infestor has an alot higher value for zergs. 1 Medivac has the value of 100/0 for terran and is equal to two marines. The gas cost of medivacs is no point a terran needs to think or worry about because there is no other gas heavy unit that terrans would want to build that are limited by the amount of gas spend on medivacs.
This is the origin and the reason why many people consider TvZ boring and always the same, what it is in fact. Most other issues derive from this. It has nothing to do with racial differences at all, its a metagame that doesnt work as intended.
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Don't respond to LSN, it will eat away your brain cells. He doesn't even know who he is responding to. NarutO didn't say anything.
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On September 07 2013 01:39 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 01:04 Sissors wrote:On September 07 2013 01:02 a176 wrote:
during that first innovation drg game,
they showed the resource income panel for the players.
it was kind of disgusting to see innovation basically not giving a shit about mining gas (the bar was literally all in favor of drg).
that is definitely not good game design if all terran has to do is make marines and a handful of 25gas mines and medivacs. When will people realised being mineral starved is not a good situation. A balanced mineral-gas requirement is superior. You can have better saturation on same amount of bases and your bases mine out later with same number of workers active. hi naruto, it has been explained already that it is wrong what you say. Terrans dont need more minerals because they need less gas. Everything terrans need focuses on minerals. Zergs could do this too but their army would be extremely weak (ling only, roach only). Zergs need to balance out how much minerals they must spend on mineral only units and how much minerals they can spend on gas units like banelings/mutalisks. Terrans dont need to balance out anything there. They basically have enaugh gas for any gas unit that they want to build and at the same time they can build a strong force with only minerals that zergs must counter with gas heavy units. Terran doesnt need to counter anything of zerg with gas heavy units. So there is no limitation with having not enaugh gas to build a certain strong kind of unit for terran but instead they ralley their strongest possible combination of units, that needs minerals only over the map (cheap & cost effective units: marines(50), maurauder(100), mines(75)). If any of the units a terran wanted to use were limiting terran by gas they could not build them all the time and would have to switch to some weaker units that they do not prefer to build. Therefore the terran situation is superior.
Terrans makes 10-20 medivacs per game each costing 100/100 = terrans don't need gas
Zerg makes 10-20 mutalisks per game each costing 100/100 = gas starved
Zerg makes majority Ling based armies costing 50 minerals per pair = larva starved
Terran makes majority marine based armies costing 50 minerals a piece = free units
The big shift in HotS is the replacement of the Seige Tank with the Widow Mine. Buff the tank and you'll see more gas use from Terran.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 07 2013 02:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 01:39 LSN wrote:On September 07 2013 01:04 Sissors wrote:On September 07 2013 01:02 a176 wrote:
during that first innovation drg game,
they showed the resource income panel for the players.
it was kind of disgusting to see innovation basically not giving a shit about mining gas (the bar was literally all in favor of drg).
that is definitely not good game design if all terran has to do is make marines and a handful of 25gas mines and medivacs. When will people realised being mineral starved is not a good situation. A balanced mineral-gas requirement is superior. You can have better saturation on same amount of bases and your bases mine out later with same number of workers active. hi naruto, it has been explained already that it is wrong what you say. Terrans dont need more minerals because they need less gas. Everything terrans need focuses on minerals. Zergs could do this too but their army would be extremely weak (ling only, roach only). Zergs need to balance out how much minerals they must spend on mineral only units and how much minerals they can spend on gas units like banelings/mutalisks. Terrans dont need to balance out anything there. They basically have enaugh gas for any gas unit that they want to build and at the same time they can build a strong force with only minerals that zergs must counter with gas heavy units. Terran doesnt need to counter anything of zerg with gas heavy units. So there is no limitation with having not enaugh gas to build a certain strong kind of unit for terran but instead they ralley their strongest possible combination of units, that needs minerals only over the map (cheap & cost effective units: marines(50), maurauder(100), mines(75)). If any of the units a terran wanted to use were limiting terran by gas they could not build them all the time and would have to switch to some weaker units that they do not prefer to build. Therefore the terran situation is superior. Terrans makes 10-20 medivacs per game each costing 100/100 = terrans don't need gas Zerg makes 10-20 mutalisks per game each costing 100/100 = gas starved Zerg makes majority Ling based armies costing 50 minerals per pair = larva starved Terran makes majority marine based armies costing 50 minerals a piece = free units The big shift in HotS is the replacement of the Seige Tank with the Widow Mine. Buff the tank and you'll see more gas use from Terran.
You forgot banelings. And zerg usually makes more than 20 mutas in current meta, more like 30 :D
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Yes but zergs dont want to build mutalisks. They are weak vs bio/mine compositions. Zergs build them not to die to drops. Because zergs build alot of mutalisks their hive/ultralisks/upgrades get delayed. Terrans that build alot of medivacs dont delay anything else with it. There is nothing at all better to spend your gas on than medivacs. It is not an opportunity cost. There is enaugh gas there and you spend it with the units you want without it becoming a limiting factor ever.
But I guess understanding this might be too demanding for some people here, honestly.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 07 2013 02:12 LSN wrote:
Yes but zergs dont want to build mutalisks. They are weak vs bio/mine compositions. Zergs build them not to die to drops. Because zergs build alot of mutalisks their hive/ultralisks/upgrades get delayed. Terrans building alot of medivacs dont get delayed by it at all. There is nothing at all better to spend your gas on than medivacs.
Another guy who is does not keep up with meta.
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When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 07 2013 02:18 LSN wrote:
When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc.
Except that mass 2-0 (or even 3-0 :D) mutas are actually pretty good against small clumps of 3-3 marines due to regen and air units specific. Also, hive tech will most of time delayed anyway, due to banelings.
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On September 07 2013 02:21 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 02:18 LSN wrote:
When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc. Except that mass 2-0 (or even 3-0 :D) mutas are actually pretty good against small clumps of 3-3 marines due to regen and air units specific. Also, hive tech will most of time delayed anyway, due to banelings.
Well but "terran's hive tech" is not delayed by sort of "banelings" right? So this is what it is all about.
And it is at the same time the solution to all the problems. Many ppl claimed to make 3-3 for zerg available at lair. Bullshit!
The solution is to get terran right and involve gas opportunity costs into terran gameplay. Make terran transition into mech, make terran need its gas for different things that cant be achieved at the same time like colossus/HT or like infestor/baneling/mutaliks. Make terran need its gas to be happy in TvZ. Get an interesting and versatile metagame will be the result.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 07 2013 02:24 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 02:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:18 LSN wrote:
When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc. Except that mass 2-0 (or even 3-0 :D) mutas are actually pretty good against small clumps of 3-3 marines due to regen and air units specific. Also, hive tech will most of time delayed anyway, due to banelings. Well but "terran's hive tech" is not delayed by sort of "banelings" right? So this is what it is all about. And it is at the same time the solution to all the problems. Many ppl claimed to make 3-3 for zerg available at lair. Bullshit! The solution is to get terran right and involve gas opportunity costs into terran gameplay. Make terran transition into mech, make terran need its gas for different things that cant be achieved at the same time like colossus/HT or like infestor/baneling/mutaliks. Make terran need its gas to be happy in TvZ. Get an interesting and versatile metagame will be the result.
Terran does not have any kind of analogy for hive tech. So please...
Also, making terran transitioning into mech (what i want and like) lies outside of this thread.
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On September 07 2013 02:24 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 02:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:18 LSN wrote:
When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc. Except that mass 2-0 (or even 3-0 :D) mutas are actually pretty good against small clumps of 3-3 marines due to regen and air units specific. Also, hive tech will most of time delayed anyway, due to banelings. Well but "terran's hive tech" is not delayed by sort of "banelings" right? So this is what it is all about. And it is at the same time the solution to all the problems. Many ppl claimed to make 3-3 for zerg available at lair. Bullshit! The solution is to get terran right and involve gas opportunity costs into terran gameplay. Make terran transition into mech, make terran need its gas for different things that cant be achieved at the same time like colossus/HT or like infestor/baneling/mutaliks. Make terran need its gas to be happy in TvZ. Get an interesting and versatile metagame will be the result.
We just saw three games of Zerg macro ass wooping against the best Macro terran there is at the moment. All at lair tech. Most of it being the use of mutalisks against marine/mine/medivacs.
Whining about terran not using enough gas sounds like user error to me. Terran late game mines out faster than any other race due to mules, so by the time the late game comes along terran literally don't have enough minerals to use against zerg and protoss compositions.
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On September 07 2013 02:34 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 02:24 LSN wrote:On September 07 2013 02:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:18 LSN wrote:
When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc. Except that mass 2-0 (or even 3-0 :D) mutas are actually pretty good against small clumps of 3-3 marines due to regen and air units specific. Also, hive tech will most of time delayed anyway, due to banelings. Well but "terran's hive tech" is not delayed by sort of "banelings" right? So this is what it is all about. And it is at the same time the solution to all the problems. Many ppl claimed to make 3-3 for zerg available at lair. Bullshit! The solution is to get terran right and involve gas opportunity costs into terran gameplay. Make terran transition into mech, make terran need its gas for different things that cant be achieved at the same time like colossus/HT or like infestor/baneling/mutaliks. Make terran need its gas to be happy in TvZ. Get an interesting and versatile metagame will be the result. Terran does not have any kind of analogy for hive tech. So please... Also, making terran transitioning into mech (what i want and like) lies outside of this thread.
Sure it has. The analogy of hive tech for terran is high tech/gas units in general which involves mech to a certain extend into an army. In BW it were also science vessels. Making terran transition into or involve mech is a major part of balance and metagame, what is the topic of this thread all day long.
On September 07 2013 02:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 02:24 LSN wrote:On September 07 2013 02:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:18 LSN wrote:
When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc. Except that mass 2-0 (or even 3-0 :D) mutas are actually pretty good against small clumps of 3-3 marines due to regen and air units specific. Also, hive tech will most of time delayed anyway, due to banelings. Well but "terran's hive tech" is not delayed by sort of "banelings" right? So this is what it is all about. And it is at the same time the solution to all the problems. Many ppl claimed to make 3-3 for zerg available at lair. Bullshit! The solution is to get terran right and involve gas opportunity costs into terran gameplay. Make terran transition into mech, make terran need its gas for different things that cant be achieved at the same time like colossus/HT or like infestor/baneling/mutaliks. Make terran need its gas to be happy in TvZ. Get an interesting and versatile metagame will be the result. We just saw three games of Zerg macro ass wooping against the best Macro terran there is at the moment. All at lair tech. Most of it being the use of mutalisks against marine/mine/medivacs. Whining about terran not using enough gas sounds like user error to me. Terran late game mines out faster than any other race due to mules, so by the time the late game comes along terran literally don't have enough minerals to use against zerg and protoss compositions.
Innovation is amongst the best terrans that has become quite unstable lately. He lost another match, this time to a zerg that isnt exactly unknown or an underdog. He loses TvTs, TvPs and TvZs frequently right now. Whine is what you do when not realizing logical arguments as such that I have given. I have explained detailly how terrans limited gas expenses don't allow them to do decisions based on gas opportunity costs but on just getting what is needed. This is the reason why the TvZ metagame is always the exact same and gets boring and it creates alot of frustrating and discouraging situations for zergs. Still zergs CAN win games against terran, it is not at all the point.
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On September 07 2013 02:50 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 02:34 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:24 LSN wrote:On September 07 2013 02:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:18 LSN wrote:
When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc. Except that mass 2-0 (or even 3-0 :D) mutas are actually pretty good against small clumps of 3-3 marines due to regen and air units specific. Also, hive tech will most of time delayed anyway, due to banelings. Well but "terran's hive tech" is not delayed by sort of "banelings" right? So this is what it is all about. And it is at the same time the solution to all the problems. Many ppl claimed to make 3-3 for zerg available at lair. Bullshit! The solution is to get terran right and involve gas opportunity costs into terran gameplay. Make terran transition into mech, make terran need its gas for different things that cant be achieved at the same time like colossus/HT or like infestor/baneling/mutaliks. Make terran need its gas to be happy in TvZ. Get an interesting and versatile metagame will be the result. Terran does not have any kind of analogy for hive tech. So please... Also, making terran transitioning into mech (what i want and like) lies outside of this thread. Sure it has. The analogy of hive tech for terran is high tech/gas units in general which involves mech to a certain extend into an army. In BW it were also science vessels. Making terran transition into mech is a major part of balance and metagame, what is the topic of this thread all day long. Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 02:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 07 2013 02:24 LSN wrote:On September 07 2013 02:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:18 LSN wrote:
When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc. Except that mass 2-0 (or even 3-0 :D) mutas are actually pretty good against small clumps of 3-3 marines due to regen and air units specific. Also, hive tech will most of time delayed anyway, due to banelings. Well but "terran's hive tech" is not delayed by sort of "banelings" right? So this is what it is all about. And it is at the same time the solution to all the problems. Many ppl claimed to make 3-3 for zerg available at lair. Bullshit! The solution is to get terran right and involve gas opportunity costs into terran gameplay. Make terran transition into mech, make terran need its gas for different things that cant be achieved at the same time like colossus/HT or like infestor/baneling/mutaliks. Make terran need its gas to be happy in TvZ. Get an interesting and versatile metagame will be the result. We just saw three games of Zerg macro ass wooping against the best Macro terran there is at the moment. All at lair tech. Most of it being the use of mutalisks against marine/mine/medivacs. Whining about terran not using enough gas sounds like user error to me. Terran late game mines out faster than any other race due to mules, so by the time the late game comes along terran literally don't have enough minerals to use against zerg and protoss compositions. Innovation is amongst the best terrans that has become quite unstable lately. He lost another match, this time to a zerg that isnt exactly unknown or an underdog. He loses TvTs, TvPs and TvZs frequently right now. Whine is what you do when not realizing logical arguments as such that I have given. I have explained detailly how terrans limited gas expenses don't allow them to do decisions based on gas opportunity costs but on just getting what is needed. This is the reason why the TvZ metagame is always the exact same and gets boring and it creates alot of frustrating and discouraging situations for zergs. Still zergs CAN win games against terran, it is not at all the point.
But the argument your making is a non-existent one.
In BW, when Terrans made 5-6 science vessels for 225 gas each, they only made marines. and a few dropships. Which is the same amount of gas use that SC2 has when making 20 medivacs a game.
the only gas heavy expenditure Terran had in BW was tank production--a unit that costs more gas now than it did in BW.
Your argument is false because Terran, as a race, has NEVER been one that was dependent on gas heavy unit production.
What you are doing is whining about marine/marauder/mines/medivac in SC2 TvZ not realizing that BW TvZ was Marine/Medic/Science vessel and used up the same amount of gas.
Gas use in TvT is higher in SC2 than it was in BW, tanks costing 125 gas in SC2 and only 100 in BW. Viking Production is also much more important in SC2 while wraith production was less so in BW. Which means you're wrong about gas use in TvT as well.
The only matchup where gas use was higher in BW was TvP, but being that gas use is higher in TvT the overall gas use is roughly the same between BW and SC2
Which means that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, no basis in what you're talking about, and no actual reason for going about it in the way you have. I'm giving you the benefit of a doubt, but if you keep acting like a troll I'll have to assume you are.
Because your argument that terran needs to spend more gas because Zerg spend a lot of gas is just ridiculous and silly. Terran design should not mimic Zerg design.
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On September 07 2013 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 02:50 LSN wrote:On September 07 2013 02:34 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:24 LSN wrote:On September 07 2013 02:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:18 LSN wrote:
When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc. Except that mass 2-0 (or even 3-0 :D) mutas are actually pretty good against small clumps of 3-3 marines due to regen and air units specific. Also, hive tech will most of time delayed anyway, due to banelings. Well but "terran's hive tech" is not delayed by sort of "banelings" right? So this is what it is all about. And it is at the same time the solution to all the problems. Many ppl claimed to make 3-3 for zerg available at lair. Bullshit! The solution is to get terran right and involve gas opportunity costs into terran gameplay. Make terran transition into mech, make terran need its gas for different things that cant be achieved at the same time like colossus/HT or like infestor/baneling/mutaliks. Make terran need its gas to be happy in TvZ. Get an interesting and versatile metagame will be the result. Terran does not have any kind of analogy for hive tech. So please... Also, making terran transitioning into mech (what i want and like) lies outside of this thread. Sure it has. The analogy of hive tech for terran is high tech/gas units in general which involves mech to a certain extend into an army. In BW it were also science vessels. Making terran transition into mech is a major part of balance and metagame, what is the topic of this thread all day long. On September 07 2013 02:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 07 2013 02:24 LSN wrote:On September 07 2013 02:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:18 LSN wrote:
When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc. Except that mass 2-0 (or even 3-0 :D) mutas are actually pretty good against small clumps of 3-3 marines due to regen and air units specific. Also, hive tech will most of time delayed anyway, due to banelings. Well but "terran's hive tech" is not delayed by sort of "banelings" right? So this is what it is all about. And it is at the same time the solution to all the problems. Many ppl claimed to make 3-3 for zerg available at lair. Bullshit! The solution is to get terran right and involve gas opportunity costs into terran gameplay. Make terran transition into mech, make terran need its gas for different things that cant be achieved at the same time like colossus/HT or like infestor/baneling/mutaliks. Make terran need its gas to be happy in TvZ. Get an interesting and versatile metagame will be the result. We just saw three games of Zerg macro ass wooping against the best Macro terran there is at the moment. All at lair tech. Most of it being the use of mutalisks against marine/mine/medivacs. Whining about terran not using enough gas sounds like user error to me. Terran late game mines out faster than any other race due to mules, so by the time the late game comes along terran literally don't have enough minerals to use against zerg and protoss compositions. Innovation is amongst the best terrans that has become quite unstable lately. He lost another match, this time to a zerg that isnt exactly unknown or an underdog. He loses TvTs, TvPs and TvZs frequently right now. Whine is what you do when not realizing logical arguments as such that I have given. I have explained detailly how terrans limited gas expenses don't allow them to do decisions based on gas opportunity costs but on just getting what is needed. This is the reason why the TvZ metagame is always the exact same and gets boring and it creates alot of frustrating and discouraging situations for zergs. Still zergs CAN win games against terran, it is not at all the point. But the argument your making is a non-existent one. In BW, when Terrans made 5-6 science vessels for 225 gas each, they only made marines. and a few dropships. Which is the same amount of gas use that SC2 has when making 20 medivacs a game. the only gas heavy expenditure Terran had in BW was tank production--a unit that costs more gas now than it did in BW. Your argument is false because Terran, as a race, has NEVER been one that was dependent on gas heavy unit production. What you are doing is whining about marine/marauder/mines/medivac in SC2 TvZ not realizing that BW TvZ was Marine/Medic/Science vessel and used up the same amount of gas. Gas use in TvT is higher in SC2 than it was in BW, tanks costing 125 gas in SC2 and only 100 in BW. Viking Production is also much more important in SC2 while wraith production was less so in BW. Which means you're wrong about gas use in TvT as well. The only matchup where gas use was higher in BW was TvP, but being that gas use is higher in TvT the overall gas use is roughly the same between BW and SC2 Which means that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, no basis in what you're talking about, and no actual reason for going about it in the way you have. I'm giving you the benefit of a doubt, but if you keep acting like a troll I'll have to assume you are. Because your argument that terran needs to spend more gas because Zerg spend a lot of gas is just ridiculous and silly. Terran design should not mimic Zerg design.
"In BW, when Terrans made 5-6 science vessels for 225 gas each, they only made marines. and a few dropships. Which is the same amount of gas use that SC2 has when making 20 medivacs a game."
Terrans in BW also made tanks vs lurkers and later on vs dark swarm.
"Your argument is false because Terran, as a race, has NEVER been one that was dependent on gas heavy unit production."
My argument is that a terran gameplay that is based more on transitions into mech than what it is now would lead into a more interesting metagame and naturally balance out alot of the issues people worry about. What you write in this sentence is in no way related to this.
"The only matchup where gas use was higher in BW was TvP, but being that gas use is higher in TvT the overall gas use is roughly the same between BW and SC2"
This is not about gas use in BW. It is about gas use of terran in TvZ of SC2. And it is about BW metagame that involved alot of transitions for both sides and terran using tanks as well as science vessels. You are off the point again.
"What you are doing is whining about marine/marauder/mines/medivac in SC2 TvZ not realizing that BW TvZ was Marine/Medic/Science vessel and used up the same amount of gas."
I dont whine at all. I do reasoning why the majority of SC2 players, including Protoss progamer MC, thinks that TvZ is narrow and boring. The lacking transitions of terran and the resulting overgas is the reason for this. Terran should be enabled as well as forced to transition to make the game more interesting. This also involves more healthy gas opportunity costs for terran in this matchup.
"Because your argument that terran needs to spend more gas because Zerg spend a lot of gas is just ridiculous and silly. Terran design should not mimic Zerg design."
At this point I have to sadly admit that you dont have it what it needs to understand this issue gameplay/metagame wise. I am sorry. The opportunity costs of building a mutalisks for zerg gaswise is having less 4 banelings. The opportunity costs for terrans building a medivac is not there (in gas). Neither upgrades nor tech are delayed. And yes in BW building a dropship had quite some opportunity costs as well as getting tanks.
Summed up your post is just a matter of wrong accusations and pointless comparisons. Go ahead and feel comfortable when playing TvZ with always the same pattern that is terran = pure offense and zerg = pure defense and then banking 3k overgas after 20 minutes which makes you invulnerable to the loss of any gas from units that get killed on the battlefield like medivacs but don't wonder if playerbase as well as audience expects higher quality gaming experience which includes both Z and T have some options to get aggressive (without hard all-ining) and both sides have the chance to make their opponent adapt to their playstyle a bit and therefore tansition into something. You should know it is possible to design this better, but you wont listen to me anyway. Right now it is zerg has to adapt to the terran only and terran does always the exactly same. This is going to be penetrated sooner or later. Its just a question of how long it takes for blizzard to figure things out for all matchups. Look ZvP, its in a quite good shape. There are several openers and both sides have to be careful not to be surprised with a unit composition that they cant deal with.
TvP is the other issue that has to be dealt with btw. Terran too strong early on and protoss too strong later on. Somehow I think its an analogy with TvZ. So obviously T must be delayed early on and strenthened later on. This is possible with making mech a possible transition in both matchups as well as bringing back BC and Raven into the game.
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On September 07 2013 03:34 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 07 2013 02:50 LSN wrote:On September 07 2013 02:34 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:24 LSN wrote:On September 07 2013 02:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:18 LSN wrote:
When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc. Except that mass 2-0 (or even 3-0 :D) mutas are actually pretty good against small clumps of 3-3 marines due to regen and air units specific. Also, hive tech will most of time delayed anyway, due to banelings. Well but "terran's hive tech" is not delayed by sort of "banelings" right? So this is what it is all about. And it is at the same time the solution to all the problems. Many ppl claimed to make 3-3 for zerg available at lair. Bullshit! The solution is to get terran right and involve gas opportunity costs into terran gameplay. Make terran transition into mech, make terran need its gas for different things that cant be achieved at the same time like colossus/HT or like infestor/baneling/mutaliks. Make terran need its gas to be happy in TvZ. Get an interesting and versatile metagame will be the result. Terran does not have any kind of analogy for hive tech. So please... Also, making terran transitioning into mech (what i want and like) lies outside of this thread. Sure it has. The analogy of hive tech for terran is high tech/gas units in general which involves mech to a certain extend into an army. In BW it were also science vessels. Making terran transition into mech is a major part of balance and metagame, what is the topic of this thread all day long. On September 07 2013 02:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 07 2013 02:24 LSN wrote:On September 07 2013 02:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 07 2013 02:18 LSN wrote:
When zergs win with mass mutalisks, they are ahead alot. 2-0 mutalisks just die to 3-3 marines in equal positions. If terrans stay 3 base vs a 4-5 base zerg and dont manage to kill him while throwing away wave after wave of units until the zerg has 40+ mutalisks vs 20-30 marines, sure the mutalisks then do well. Why do you call this metagame? Its just a few games you saw recently. Or do you blame zergs to be able to win a game after defending 20 minutes of bio/mine rushes successfully?
Initially you dont want to have mutalisks vs a bio/mine/medic composition! Why? Because there are much better alternatives. The gas that you spend on the mutalisks prevent you from getting more other gas heavy units that you actually would want to have too, and faster tech/higher upgrades. The amount of medivacs a terran builds doesnt limit the terran by anything. 3-3 doesnt get delayed, mech doesnt get delayed etc. Except that mass 2-0 (or even 3-0 :D) mutas are actually pretty good against small clumps of 3-3 marines due to regen and air units specific. Also, hive tech will most of time delayed anyway, due to banelings. Well but "terran's hive tech" is not delayed by sort of "banelings" right? So this is what it is all about. And it is at the same time the solution to all the problems. Many ppl claimed to make 3-3 for zerg available at lair. Bullshit! The solution is to get terran right and involve gas opportunity costs into terran gameplay. Make terran transition into mech, make terran need its gas for different things that cant be achieved at the same time like colossus/HT or like infestor/baneling/mutaliks. Make terran need its gas to be happy in TvZ. Get an interesting and versatile metagame will be the result. We just saw three games of Zerg macro ass wooping against the best Macro terran there is at the moment. All at lair tech. Most of it being the use of mutalisks against marine/mine/medivacs. Whining about terran not using enough gas sounds like user error to me. Terran late game mines out faster than any other race due to mules, so by the time the late game comes along terran literally don't have enough minerals to use against zerg and protoss compositions. Innovation is amongst the best terrans that has become quite unstable lately. He lost another match, this time to a zerg that isnt exactly unknown or an underdog. He loses TvTs, TvPs and TvZs frequently right now. Whine is what you do when not realizing logical arguments as such that I have given. I have explained detailly how terrans limited gas expenses don't allow them to do decisions based on gas opportunity costs but on just getting what is needed. This is the reason why the TvZ metagame is always the exact same and gets boring and it creates alot of frustrating and discouraging situations for zergs. Still zergs CAN win games against terran, it is not at all the point. But the argument your making is a non-existent one. In BW, when Terrans made 5-6 science vessels for 225 gas each, they only made marines. and a few dropships. Which is the same amount of gas use that SC2 has when making 20 medivacs a game. the only gas heavy expenditure Terran had in BW was tank production--a unit that costs more gas now than it did in BW. Your argument is false because Terran, as a race, has NEVER been one that was dependent on gas heavy unit production. What you are doing is whining about marine/marauder/mines/medivac in SC2 TvZ not realizing that BW TvZ was Marine/Medic/Science vessel and used up the same amount of gas. Gas use in TvT is higher in SC2 than it was in BW, tanks costing 125 gas in SC2 and only 100 in BW. Viking Production is also much more important in SC2 while wraith production was less so in BW. Which means you're wrong about gas use in TvT as well. The only matchup where gas use was higher in BW was TvP, but being that gas use is higher in TvT the overall gas use is roughly the same between BW and SC2 Which means that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, no basis in what you're talking about, and no actual reason for going about it in the way you have. I'm giving you the benefit of a doubt, but if you keep acting like a troll I'll have to assume you are. Because your argument that terran needs to spend more gas because Zerg spend a lot of gas is just ridiculous and silly. Terran design should not mimic Zerg design. "In BW, when Terrans made 5-6 science vessels for 225 gas each, they only made marines. and a few dropships. Which is the same amount of gas use that SC2 has when making 20 medivacs a game." Terrans in BW also made tanks vs lurkers and later on vs dark swarm. "Your argument is false because Terran, as a race, has NEVER been one that was dependent on gas heavy unit production." My argument is that a terran gameplay that is based more on transitions into mech than what it is now would lead into a more interesting metagame and naturally balance out alot of the issues people worry about. What you write in this sentence is in no way related to this. "The only matchup where gas use was higher in BW was TvP, but being that gas use is higher in TvT the overall gas use is roughly the same between BW and SC2" This is not about gas use in BW. It is about gas use of terran in TvZ of SC2. And it is about BW metagame that involved alot of transitions for both sides and terran using tanks as well as science vessels. You are off the point again. "What you are doing is whining about marine/marauder/mines/medivac in SC2 TvZ not realizing that BW TvZ was Marine/Medic/Science vessel and used up the same amount of gas." I dont whine at all. I do reasoning why the majority of SC2 players, including Protoss progamer MC, thinks that TvZ is narrow and boring. The lacking transitions of terran and the resulting overgas is the reason for this. Terran should be enabled as well as forced to transition more to make the game more interesting. "Because your argument that terran needs to spend more gas because Zerg spend a lot of gas is just ridiculous and silly. Terran design should not mimic Zerg design." At this point I have to sadly admit that you dont have it what it needs to understand this issue gameplay/metagame wise. I am sorry. The opportunity costs of building a mutalisks for zerg gaswise is having less 4 banelings. The opportunity costs for terrans building a medivac is not there (in gas). Neither upgrades nor tech are delayed. And yes in BW building a dropship had quite some opportunity costs. Summed up your post is just a matter of wrong accusations and pointless comparisons. But go ahead and feel comfortable when playing TvZ with always the same pattern that is terran = pure offense and zerg = pure defense and then banking 3k overgas after 20 minutes which makes you invulnerable to the loss of gas of any units on the battleflield. But you should know it is possible to design this better.
And why would you assume I'm okay with TvZ as is right now? If I was okay with the balance of the game I would not be posting in a balance discussion thread.
You are mistaking tech transitions and gas use. Heavy gas use does not lead to tech transition nor should tech transitions hinge upon heavy gas use.
When you say
"My argument is that a terran gameplay that is based more on transitions into mech than what it is now would lead into a more interesting metagame"
in response to
"Your argument is false because Terran, as a race, has NEVER been one that was dependent on gas heavy unit production."
and then saying
"It is about gas use of terran in TvZ of SC2. And it is about BW metagame"
Then you literally contradict yourself.
I am telling you that Terran has never been about heavy gas use in the same way the other two races used it, and hence bringing up BW comparisons is useless in discussing gas use.
I personally have many problems with the overall design philosophy of the game right now. But you seem to want to bring up gas use while citing MC's topic of lack of variance and transitions as your proof--when MC never really addresses the balance of gas consumption in the SC2 metagame.
What people want is a more dynamic game that they can't predict to the Nth degree. What people want is to have players like Flash go bio in BW TvZ almost every game while Fantasy went Mech in BW TvZ in almost every single game and having both strategies be as successful as each other giving that player an identity instead of giving the strategy an identity.
When X>1 strategies are equally viable then the strategy a player uses is used to determine their personhood. Player _____ is the macro player, player _____ is the cheesy player, player _____ uses marines, player _____ uses vultures, etc...
It makes the game be about personalities instead of being about races. This is not fixed by gas use--at all.
When Jaedong and JulyZerg became known as a Muta player, people did not fall in love with the Muta and how it could be used. They fell in love with the way Jaedong and JulyZerg used Mutalisks to do things that they normally used other units for.
The way to bring this about is not to reach an economic/design equilibrium among the races. How do we know this? Because as I showed you, the gas use in BW was about the same as the gas use in SC2. The dynamic nature of BW did not come from gas balance, it came from inherent unit drawbacks; drawbacks which aren't present in SC2 design.
A reaver is cheaper, deals more damage, and has automatic long range than a Colossus. With a Shuttle, it moves faster, and is harder to kill than a colossus. It is mathematically more "OP" than a colossus. But people miss the reaver not because they feel the Colossus is too weak, but because the colossus doesn't have a drawback to capitalize on. People are okay with overly powerful units so long as they have a drawback to make it feel fair to play against.
A lurker is just a cloaked blueflame Hellion that is more expensive, and slower. They both deal 20 damage to light units, both deal half damage to non-light units, have similar range, and a similar damage cone. People are okay that a lurker costs more than a hellion, is slower than a hellion, and less mobile than a hellion because the lurker has cloak. Drawbacks are loved by people if they carry with them an equally hefty advantage.
Its this balance of drawbacks and advantages that SC2 units need more of--not gas reliance.
An oft ridiculed BW unit is the Dragoon. How difficult it is to move, how clunky its controls were. People were okay that it had a ridiculously long range, were as mobile as non-speed zerglings, and hit like fucking trucks *BECAUSE* they were such clunky units. Stalkers have MUCH more micro potential, and is a MUCH more interestingly designed unit than the Dragoon. But the stalker is boring because it doesn't have a flaw to give it an identity. The only "flaw" to the Stalker is that it's not OP enough. When people talk about the bad BW interface they are mistaking the balance of drawback/gains with improper interface.
Superman without Kryptonite is boring and meaningless. Batman without gloom is just a rich guy with expensive toys.
The problem with SC2 is that there is no kryptonite, there is no parents shot in a dark alley. They're all just Hal Jordans with lantern rings.
You are making the same mistake as well with your constant mentioning about gas use in TvZ. You think that maybe the problem is gas usage when changing gas use will not change the how entertaining a unit is.
Lurkers are not cool because they cost 225 gas, they are cool because you can run away from them before they finish burrowing. They are cool because they can ambush people with their cloak.
Banelings are not cool because they cost 25 gas, they are cool because they are an AOE unit that has to chase down their prey and requires good control to maximize their potential.
Inherent unit drawbacks gives players something to capitalize against when facing a unit composition. It's what made Marine/Tank vs MutaLingBane so fun to watch in WoL. Marine/Medivac/Widow Mine does not have that dynamic feel to them because you don't have the chance to see the engagement. Mines are cheaper than seige tanks, hit harder than seige tanks, and can shoot air units (unlike seige tanks). The only way to play against it is through sacrificial lings and hope they fire before your army arrives. A few players like Life and DRG can make that gameplay look interesting, but for the most part it is too invisible.
The bigger the drawbacks, the more visible the dynamics.
Seige Tanks are visually big units, with a big blind spot, takes a long time to set up, and have a big drawback in their inability to hit air. It is transparent what tactical decisions needs to be made to engage the seige tank. And there are multiple ways to neuter it. Hit from air, reach their blind spot, hit them while they're in tank mode, etc...
When you see someone engage against tanks they attack it in different ways, with different units, from different angles. With a widow mine, the only thing you can do is send in sacrificial lings. Now this method takes a lot of skill to use--most players complain about widow mines because they're not a pro player and hence all they see is Widow Mines killing their entire ling force. But imagine if there were as many ways to attack widow mines as there was to attack tanks? Imagine if tanks were as powerful as widow mines but still had their drawbacks? The game would be greatly improved. Not because things cost more or less gas, but because the units on the field become more dynamic in their interactions.
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Concerning the gas use of terran in SC2, it is first of all not important how it was in BW, so I wont argue about this.
Secondly the frustration of zergs is about not being able to harm the terran in any way. Baneling vs SCV = cost ineffective. Zerglings do nothing alone. Mutalisks are defense only until you get 40+ and are way ahead in the game, if it comes to this, etc.
If terrans had to use more gas on their units this would get fixed naturally. Forcing a terran into tanks would delay his medivacs or upgrades. Killing gas heavy units of terran suddenly would make sense to damage him more. Terrans then would have to expand in order to extend their gas mining not only for minerals. Delaying/committing on an attack on a terran expansion would become more cost effective, when doing damage cause gas is denied then too while mules still get dropped eslewhere or being saved for later. The whole gas thing is part of why zergs cant damage a terran with anything early on and this leads to the frustration of zerg players MC is talking of.
I am going to read your post completely later on and respond to it.
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On September 07 2013 01:02 a176 wrote:
during that first innovation drg game,
they showed the resource income panel for the players.
it was kind of disgusting to see innovation basically not giving a shit about mining gas (the bar was literally all in favor of drg).
that is definitely not good game design if all terran has to do is make marines and a handful of 25gas mines and medivacs.
Korean stream shows APMs throughout the game, too. I won't tell what they're like so that people's ego don't get hurt.
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On September 07 2013 02:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 01:39 LSN wrote:On September 07 2013 01:04 Sissors wrote:On September 07 2013 01:02 a176 wrote:
during that first innovation drg game,
they showed the resource income panel for the players.
it was kind of disgusting to see innovation basically not giving a shit about mining gas (the bar was literally all in favor of drg).
that is definitely not good game design if all terran has to do is make marines and a handful of 25gas mines and medivacs. When will people realised being mineral starved is not a good situation. A balanced mineral-gas requirement is superior. You can have better saturation on same amount of bases and your bases mine out later with same number of workers active. hi naruto, it has been explained already that it is wrong what you say. Terrans dont need more minerals because they need less gas. Everything terrans need focuses on minerals. Zergs could do this too but their army would be extremely weak (ling only, roach only). Zergs need to balance out how much minerals they must spend on mineral only units and how much minerals they can spend on gas units like banelings/mutalisks. Terrans dont need to balance out anything there. They basically have enaugh gas for any gas unit that they want to build and at the same time they can build a strong force with only minerals that zergs must counter with gas heavy units. Terran doesnt need to counter anything of zerg with gas heavy units. So there is no limitation with having not enaugh gas to build a certain strong kind of unit for terran but instead they ralley their strongest possible combination of units, that needs minerals only over the map (cheap & cost effective units: marines(50), maurauder(100), mines(75)). If any of the units a terran wanted to use were limiting terran by gas they could not build them all the time and would have to switch to some weaker units that they do not prefer to build. Therefore the terran situation is superior. Terrans makes 10-20 medivacs per game each costing 100/100 = terrans don't need gas Zerg makes 10-20 mutalisks per game each costing 100/100 = gas starved Zerg makes majority Ling based armies costing 50 minerals per pair = larva starved Terran makes majority marine based armies costing 50 minerals a piece = free units The big shift in HotS is the replacement of the Seige Tank with the Widow Mine. Buff the tank and you'll see more gas use from Terran.
I don't even main Terran and this is a change I would love to see. I find it sickening how utterly weak tanks are. I mean really, they can't even one-shot a marine. You need a group of tanks before they really start to change the tides of a battle, and even then they're immobile, and countered heavily by stimmed marauders, zealots, blink stalkers, immortals, any air, etc. etc.
I see Terrans making tanks when I play and I think "I win."
Why make tanks when you get more bang for the buck with bio? Honestly? Why? Stimmed marauders do far more damage, are extremely mobile, and can zip around with dropships to nuke down a building in less time than it takes a tank to siege and start shooting.
I would tentatively suggest that tank cost be increased and damage go back to the base 50 that it was in beta. You'd have less tanks on the field but the ones present would be far more effective.
Of course, as stated, I don't main Terran - so maybe I'm completely wrong; but there's gotta be a reason I love seeing a Terran who makes tanks, though.
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