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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 07 2013 04:50 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 01:02 a176 wrote:
during that first innovation drg game,
they showed the resource income panel for the players.
it was kind of disgusting to see innovation basically not giving a shit about mining gas (the bar was literally all in favor of drg).
that is definitely not good game design if all terran has to do is make marines and a handful of 25gas mines and medivacs. Korean stream shows APMs throughout the game, too. I won't tell what they're like so that people's ego don't get hurt.
Say it! Around ~450+ for DRG, 350+ for Inno?
P. S. @Magpie: the only real drawback to all the OP units BW had (and yes, in SC2 reaver would be so OP, people would never stop to complain about it) was retarded AI and tough as **** to use interface. That's pretty much the only drawback that made BW fun game. Yes, i am generalizing here, but that is essentially how it was.
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On September 07 2013 05:16 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 04:50 usethis2 wrote:On September 07 2013 01:02 a176 wrote:
during that first innovation drg game,
they showed the resource income panel for the players.
it was kind of disgusting to see innovation basically not giving a shit about mining gas (the bar was literally all in favor of drg).
that is definitely not good game design if all terran has to do is make marines and a handful of 25gas mines and medivacs. Korean stream shows APMs throughout the game, too. I won't tell what they're like so that people's ego don't get hurt. Say it! Around ~450+ for DRG, 350+ for Inno? P. S. @Magpie: the only real drawback to all the OP units BW had (and yes, in SC2 reaver would be so OP, people would never stop to complain about it) was retarded AI and tough as **** to use interface. That's pretty much the only drawback that made BW fun game. Yes, i am generalizing here, but that is essentially how it was.
Yes, many units were balanced by the interface. Dragoons, marines, zerglings, etc... All were prevented from raping everything by the interface. But not everything.
Tanks were immobile and were shit melee.
Goliaths were STRONG anti-air but didn't have the mobility to keep up with air units.
Reavers needed a 2nd unit to move around
Defilers couldn't afford their spells without eating lings
There are many ways to provide drawbacks to a unit. But drawbacks only make sense if seen as an extra cost to boost stats.
And *if* the only way to give the drawbacks is a worsen interface then so be it--but I trust in human creativity.
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On September 07 2013 01:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 00:26 TheDwf wrote:
I don't get why everyone is so intent on attributing so much of DRG's wins to the Overseer buff while the deciding factors in the two games he won were elsewhere. Not that it would have been impossible before the overseer buff, but those mutalisk/zergling counterattacks that he kept on doing benefit greatly from that buff. Before that you'd take a huge risk flying a bigger distance with mutalisks, especially around and over bases, because your overseers would simply lag behind. But yeah, his win is mostly just a combination of amazing macro, creep spread, control and a great gameplan that didn't involve some huge midgame baneling timing. Instead he just focused on eventually starving INnoVation. Edit: His gameplay was very similar to Sleep and Scarlett'. Granted with other units, but same strategy. Try to deny the 4th or 5th base while holding your own.
Damn, I was out last night and missed these games. So, Zerg players are finally putting all the pieces together to defeat 4M?
Nice. 
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On September 07 2013 06:06 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 01:04 Big J wrote:On September 07 2013 00:26 TheDwf wrote:
I don't get why everyone is so intent on attributing so much of DRG's wins to the Overseer buff while the deciding factors in the two games he won were elsewhere. Not that it would have been impossible before the overseer buff, but those mutalisk/zergling counterattacks that he kept on doing benefit greatly from that buff. Before that you'd take a huge risk flying a bigger distance with mutalisks, especially around and over bases, because your overseers would simply lag behind. But yeah, his win is mostly just a combination of amazing macro, creep spread, control and a great gameplan that didn't involve some huge midgame baneling timing. Instead he just focused on eventually starving INnoVation. Edit: His gameplay was very similar to Sleep and Scarlett'. Granted with other units, but same strategy. Try to deny the 4th or 5th base while holding your own. Damn, I was out last night and missed these games. So, Zerg players are finally putting all the pieces together to defeat 4M? Nice.
Less putting the pieces together and more "suck less" philosophies practiced. DRG didn't do anything new, he simply did what Zerg have been doing--just better, faster, and with less mistakes.
He hit often, harassing constantly, never afraid to engage the terran and retreating after troop numbers were shrunk akin to 2011 WoL TvZ except with a role reversal of Zerg being the aggressor and Terran being defensive.
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That's why I said Zerg players putting the pieces together. I didn't assume DRG did anything substantively new, he simply seems to have coalesced all the different and evolving tactics used recently by Zerg players (e.g. Baneling mines, Muta harass which the Overseer buff appears to have helped, preservation of Banelings, Ling counters, little ling/bane defence squads to protect against drops, great creep spread, preventing the Terran 4th etc) into one package allied to superb mechanics. That was what I got from the vods which I just watched. That was a phenomenal series. I especially liked game 1, on Whirlwind, probably because it looked the most evenly contested and the engagements were just delicious. By the end of game 3 Innovation looked done and dusted in a match-up he had formerly dominated easily. Great play by both players and beautiful Starcraft.
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A bit of food for thought, I counted the MU maps wins in the IEM KR/TW qualifier so far (not concluded yet). While it's tiny sample, it is a new indication of trends in the MUs. Note that it is not the top level (no Innovation, Bomber, Flash, Soulkey) but quite a few of the famous guys (Rain, Life, etc). This is to be analyzed in conjunction with other information that we have, and not for jumping to conclusions.
P v T
21-15: 58% (with this much variance, perfect)
Z v P
17-26: 60% (see above)
Z v T
12-2: 86% (Only Heart and Fantasy took a map off the zergs, but note that it was only 14 games!)
If anyone can be bothered to do the same for the other regions, I would be very glad.
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Holy shit I'm fucking tired of how broken Terran and Zerg are. They can basically get away with everything and it doesn't matter how many times I will fend off their pushes with no loses. Protoss is the worst race because it benefits the worst of all the three races any good and creative play. Fucking marines and zerglings can cost you a game in a matter of seconds while you have stick to your deathball to have a shot of breaking them. And while all races can't be the same how is Protoss being the most lacking and short sighted race benefits the fucking balance?
Protoss in Broodwar is ten hundred times better than Protoss in Starcraft 2 and that drives me fucking crazy.
User was warned for this post
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On September 07 2013 20:29 Ghanburighan wrote:
A bit of food for thought, I counted the MU maps wins in the IEM KR/TW qualifier so far (not concluded yet). While it's tiny sample, it is a new indication of trends in the MUs. Note that it is not the top level (no Innovation, Bomber, Flash, Soulkey) but quite a few of the famous guys (Rain, Life, etc). This is to be analyzed in conjunction with other information that we have, and not for jumping to conclusions.
P v T
21-15: 58% (with this much variance, perfect)
Z v P
17-26: 60% (see above)
Z v T
12-2: 86% (Only Heart and Fantasy took a map off the zergs, but note that it was only 14 games!)
If anyone can be bothered to do the same for the other regions, I would be very glad.
You could say a base of at least 100 Matches per MU (Bo1) would give a hint towards Balance issues, better 1000.
Given that not every PvT is
2gas double Forge be save Rainstyle
not Every ZvT is 4M vs Muta ling bling
not every ZvP is Deathball vs anything zerg.
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On September 07 2013 23:52 frontline- wrote:
Holy shit I'm fucking tired of how broken Terran and Zerg are. They can basically get away with everything and it doesn't matter how many times I will fend off their pushes with no loses. Protoss is the worst race because it benefits the worst of all the three races any good and creative play. Fucking marines and zerglings can cost you a game in a matter of seconds while you have stick to your deathball to have a shot of breaking them. And while all races can't be the same how is Protoss being the most lacking and short sighted race benefits the fucking balance?
Protoss in Broodwar is ten hundred times better than Protoss in Starcraft 2 and that drives me fucking crazy.
Stop posting like that please? It clearly falls into the OP of how not to post
That being said, you can do multipronged harrass to, a few zealots in terrans main (using a Warp Prism may not be as high dps as same mins in marines, but its far less committing - you can just choose not to warp in.
Besides it seems you choose to stick by deathball only without trying to change it up.
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On September 07 2013 06:57 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 06:06 aZealot wrote:On September 07 2013 01:04 Big J wrote:On September 07 2013 00:26 TheDwf wrote:
I don't get why everyone is so intent on attributing so much of DRG's wins to the Overseer buff while the deciding factors in the two games he won were elsewhere. Not that it would have been impossible before the overseer buff, but those mutalisk/zergling counterattacks that he kept on doing benefit greatly from that buff. Before that you'd take a huge risk flying a bigger distance with mutalisks, especially around and over bases, because your overseers would simply lag behind. But yeah, his win is mostly just a combination of amazing macro, creep spread, control and a great gameplan that didn't involve some huge midgame baneling timing. Instead he just focused on eventually starving INnoVation. Edit: His gameplay was very similar to Sleep and Scarlett'. Granted with other units, but same strategy. Try to deny the 4th or 5th base while holding your own. Damn, I was out last night and missed these games. So, Zerg players are finally putting all the pieces together to defeat 4M? Nice. Less putting the pieces together and more "suck less" philosophies practiced. DRG didn't do anything new, he simply did what Zerg have been doing--just better, faster, and with less mistakes. He hit often, harassing constantly, never afraid to engage the terran and retreating after troop numbers were shrunk akin to 2011 WoL TvZ except with a role reversal of Zerg being the aggressor and Terran being defensive.
Overseer buff was kinda spot on. It feels like its only thing zergs lacked.
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4713 Posts
Ok I've been ruminating over what some of the people here have said regarding opportunity costs of T and Z and the perceived "freeness" of the terran army, but I think you guys are forgetting to look at it in the context of macro mechanics.
Terran's production is slow to get going, expensive and inflexible, you can't switch with it easily and you require specialized upgrades for infantry and vehicles, due to economics you can produce at the same pace as a zerg if trading constantly, but can't remax as quickly.
Zerg's production is relatively inexpensive and very explosive, due to economic limitations it is still on par with the other races when trading constantly, but can spiral out of control if you gain an advantage and it can be used to re-max a lot quickly then the other races, especially on powerful high tier units.
Now when you factor in all these it is actually balanced and very much ok for the zerg to have an opportunity cost to his units that is much more sever and for the terran to have less of one, and this is because, if the zerg is ever left alone for long enough and not forced to trade he can be banking enough resources that, he could win the game outright in the next remax if you both lose your entire army, because he will be back to 200/200 way quicker then the terran.
The terran can't tech switch as quickly, can't re-max as quickly as a zerg and even if he banks resources its hard to convert them into an advantage as quickly as a zerg, thus it is much more acceptable for the terran army to be a bit more replenish able.
From a balance perspective this is totally fine in theory, the only problem is that in practice this walks a razor think line where it could tip too much to one side or another if not adjusted well enough and we see it reflected in the current TvZ, however if you get it just right the balance is absolutely fine.
From a design perspective however it is kind of awful because it forces the races right now into what seems to be very specific roles or compositions. It is also inherently wrong for there to really be no or close to no opportunity cost for some things. Ideally, even if the bulk of the terran army is cheep and expendable units that function well independently, it should require higher tier units as the game progresses to keep up with the other races.
Right now though all the terran T3 and most of T2 is so badly designed that it is unusable, at least not in small numbers that could support the T1. This is the exact opposite of what we had in BW when you had nearly all tiers of units in use, you had marines & medics vs lings, they both had their mid game support of tanks and lurkers to survive and allow them to push, then you had the specialist units in defilers and science vessels, that allowed the armies to fight even more efficiently, and finally you had scourge, a sort of specialized unit to deal with vessel.
So zerg players, like it or not, your larva mechanics, and in particular the inject, is both your blessing and your curse, and it is partially why things are the way they are now. So, until they rework terran to actually have something worth while to tech up too, make peace with the thought that terran will have to have this cost efficient, low cost opportunity army, just to be able to stay even with zerg, and to be able to trade constantly. For if the zerg is ever left alone for too long, the production of them is such that they can just trade away their army and re-max on a better one quicker then the terran can react, and then potentially crush the terran.
And even the BW model is not ideal in SC2, again, because of the production mechanics. If you can constantly trade units in SC2, and terran has a bio composition with a support cast of tanks, ravens and BCs (using hypothetical example here), well the support cast of tanks, ravens and BCs need to be strong enough to help the terran army achieve victory in the late game in low numbers, because you won't be able to make many. However you then run the risk that, if the support units are strong in low numbers, they might be too strong in large numbers.
You can go about balancing from the other end and make zerg's T2 and T3 weaker, but then you run into the problem of it being too weak once you max out and you need to actually fight a 200/200 fight and win it.
So as you can see, we have no ideal response here, at least not yet.
TLDR SC2 in its current state is probably near ideal balance, however design wise it is a mess, and the reason for this is both the production mechanic of the zerg and the unit design of the terran T2 and T3. So for now, accept the fact that the game is balanced and enjoy it as much as you can, because this design isn't changing any time soon.
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I think this is the correct place to post this if not please let me know, this is an old-school complaint but every PvP, PvZ, and PvT that doesn't involve Colossus (that I watch) is better off for it. I still hope they get rid of the unit at some point. I'm really happy that I've found play styles in every match-up that don't rely on them.
Sort of a random thought as I'm watching streams today.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 08 2013 02:28 HeavenResign wrote:
I think this is the correct place to post this if not please let me know, this is an old-school complaint but every PvP, PvZ, and PvT that doesn't involve Colossus is better off for it. I still hope they get rid of the unit at some point.
Sort of a random thought as I'm watching streams today.
Collosi is awfully designed unit, but i have seen quiet a few PvPs and PvZs without it.
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On September 08 2013 02:29 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2013 02:28 HeavenResign wrote:
I think this is the correct place to post this if not please let me know, this is an old-school complaint but every PvP, PvZ, and PvT that doesn't involve Colossus is better off for it. I still hope they get rid of the unit at some point.
Sort of a random thought as I'm watching streams today. Collosi is awfully designed unit, but i have seen quiet a few PvPs and PvZs without it.
Oh yeah I agree, it's part of why I love HotS so much. I've watched a bunch of PvPs today with no Colossus. I just think it's time to get rid of the unit if they just stink up match-ups.
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@Destructicon
Yes Zerg can remax fast, but from one engagement to the next it takes at least 2mins to be back in combat if you remax on heavy hitting units (Broodlords, Ultralisks, Infestors, Swarm Hosts). In 2mins a Terran with a normal 3-4base bio setup has remaxed as well if he had a bank. Even a Mech Terran remaxes quite fast (3-4mins).
The difference is that a Terran has to identify a remax scenario and stay very defensive in that short periode, because he has to use the rush distance and defensive positioning of the map to his advantage.
If a Zerg remaxes on low tech units they will usually not be able to break a defensive position either, due to the lack of siege weapons - at least if you have anything to counter banelings.
The matchup staleness stems very simply from balance relations. Mechplay is not strong enough in relation to its disadvantages (like low mobility, high setup costs, expensive antiair) and bio play is too strong (to need a transition; not in terms of balance) given that it has no inherent disadvantage.
Note, I'm not saying that Zerg remaxes aren't strong, but they are not undealable either. Neither do I think that stronger Mechplay would be impossible to deal with when maxed. But you'd probably not be able to overrun a defensive mech player straight up and prevent any form of pushing, like it is possible right now (e.g. DRG vs GuMiho g1), and would rather have to work more with counterattacks and techswitches.
I believe the problem why it's hard to balance right now is the inbetween: bio/tank play. Imagine siegelines being costefficient against all ground units (which is imo the way it should be) while also providing the support for MMM which is already costefficient against most units in the game and provides huge mobility/harass potential.
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On September 08 2013 01:55 Destructicon wrote:
TLDR SC2 in its current state is probably near ideal balance, however design wise it is a mess, and the reason for this is both the production mechanic of the zerg and the unit design of the terran T2 and T3. So for now, accept the fact that the game is balanced and enjoy it as much as you can, because this design isn't changing any time soon.
The Zerg production mechanic basically forces the design to counter any option at once to deal with switft tech switches. This necessitates uber generalist units like the Marine. The Zerg only have 1 answer to the Marine but no answer to cost efficiently trade with the WM. Spider Mines were interesting with their snipability and distractibility and limitability. Zerg has no accessible way to counter an accessible unit. Protoss do so because everything outranges WMs.
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On September 08 2013 02:29 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2013 02:28 HeavenResign wrote:
I think this is the correct place to post this if not please let me know, this is an old-school complaint but every PvP, PvZ, and PvT that doesn't involve Colossus is better off for it. I still hope they get rid of the unit at some point.
Sort of a random thought as I'm watching streams today. Collosi is awfully designed unit, but i have seen quiet a few PvPs and PvZs without it.
I feel like everyone bitches about it because it's 9/10 a necessary condition for the toss to win that game with anything besides a cheese. If we had a reaver, everyone would be bitching about it too. Except worse when we'd see speedprisms drop into bases and cut people apart with gorgeous micro.
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On September 08 2013 04:48 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2013 02:29 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 08 2013 02:28 HeavenResign wrote:
I think this is the correct place to post this if not please let me know, this is an old-school complaint but every PvP, PvZ, and PvT that doesn't involve Colossus is better off for it. I still hope they get rid of the unit at some point.
Sort of a random thought as I'm watching streams today. Collosi is awfully designed unit, but i have seen quiet a few PvPs and PvZs without it. I feel like everyone bitches about it because it's 9/10 a necessary condition for the toss to win that game with anything besides a cheese. If we had a reaver, everyone would be bitching about it too. Except worse when we'd see speedprisms drop into bases and cut people apart with gorgeous micro.
2/3 the price
Faster
Harder to kill
Higher damage
Does not need range upgrade
vikings cant kill it since you can always just let the shuttle die.
I'm sure people would *love* the reaver in SC2
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On September 08 2013 04:48 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2013 02:29 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 08 2013 02:28 HeavenResign wrote:
I think this is the correct place to post this if not please let me know, this is an old-school complaint but every PvP, PvZ, and PvT that doesn't involve Colossus is better off for it. I still hope they get rid of the unit at some point.
Sort of a random thought as I'm watching streams today. Collosi is awfully designed unit, but i have seen quiet a few PvPs and PvZs without it. I feel like everyone bitches about it because it's 9/10 a necessary condition for the toss to win that game with anything besides a cheese. If we had a reaver, everyone would be bitching about it too. Except worse when we'd see speedprisms drop into bases and cut people apart with gorgeous micro.
I think people are always happy to see colossus drops, they never compain about them. I don't think that would change with the reaver, unless they would make reaver drops too strong and easy to execute. Generally, complaints about the colossus are derived from its deathball enabling qualities anyway.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Maybe I'm biased because I loved WoL Zerg to a certain point (I shall explain this in detail later), but here's my standing about the game.
T1 Terran beats T1 Zerg, or at least has the capacity to be very cost-effective against Zerg. T1 Protoss and T1 Zerg has kinda the same going, but +1 attack on Zealots changes everything, also, if you have more Roaches than they have "stuff", it's kinda imbalanced. But let me get to the point.
I liked to play Zerg in WoL simply because of this reason: You are trying to survive to reach your ultimate units (namely Broodlords, which I still don't like today) and then you can actually inflict damage on the enemy. Now, here's where the problem rises, Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 of Terran can pretty much deal with Tier 3 of Zerg (namely, Vikings, Marines and Marauders). I kinda feel if I survive the initial onslaught that Terran brings, I should feel comfortable having "beefy" units out. However, now, if I (somehow) got 1.5k gas banked I just pump out Ultras or Brood Lords and I still do not feel comfortable with that setup (namely, because Terrans learned that if someone goes for Brood Lords, just drop him to death, and ironically, that has been buffed in HotS).
Currently, I hate playing Zerg (I cannot play Terran as I do not have the mechanics, nor can I play Protoss as I do not like allins - no pun intended, but last 14 ZvPs I've played, Protoss tried an allin) simply because I do not feel "rewarded" for surviving that long with crappy units, or I am forced into one techpath that I particularly do not like (ling/bling/muta against Terran). Against Protoss, I like it, but the thing is, as Zerg, I (somehow) do not feel comfortable harassing anything. The only time I harass a Terran is if they are painfully bad and are just slow on everything in general. I cannot tell you how many ZvPs I've lost just due to the fact that I look at his army and say "yeah, I should've built Swarm Hosts" and I absolutely hate that unit. That doesn't feel like Zerg to me, it just doesn't fit. They've tried to make Zerg being able to "contain" someone with their units, but the only "techpath" I can contain someone is if they go mech, and mech is really bad to play against as it is a 30minute turtlefest.
Currently, I am a little biased towards Zerg (I like the fact that you have fast units, I like their macro and I like that you're slowly gaining ground as the game continues) but is Zerg ever going to feel Zerg again in terms of gameplay? I am not talking to Zerg players out there, but Terran and Protoss as well, do you feel that Zerg is actually just being Zerg or do is it a one-Bo-sidefest that I've been seeing on ladder?
I do not want to compare my games to pro-players, as their mechanics are so much better than mine (I'm Diamond, playing with low/mid Masters and losing a ZvP to Platinum DT rush etc), but does the game itself feel "stale" to you? I've kept track of all threads on TL and reddit and community feels like it's awaiting armageddon of some sort.
Edit: What I wanted to say is, do you think the games should progress from Tier 1 to Tier 3 units actively? As, for now, Terran's "lategame units" suck, unless you get the massive air deathball, but that really rarely happens, especially not in pro games. Currently, Terrans are just pumping out the same units from the get-go. I kinda feel that if you're pumping out Tier 1 units, you should be able to have the edge most of the game, but if the opponent somehow reaches his higher Tier units, you need to change your strategy and build other units.
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