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On August 09 2013 17:34 Zarahtra wrote:
Edit: But yeah, they just need to change blinding cloud, so it doesn't remove the range of all units effected, but reduces it by 3-5(like people have suggested). Will bring tanks back into TvZ and make blinding cloud usuable vs more targets. Seeing as infestors were essentially killed(thank fuck for that stupid unit being gone) I feel vipers being zergs primary caster should have more of a core role in the game, especially ZvT. Currently it just pretty much hard counters mech and has it's uses in ZvP.
Adjusting just blinding cloud will do little for mech as abduct will become a even bigger problem.
And even if you were to nerf that there are still swarm hosts, mutas and broodlords.
Mech just got too weak to salvage by now.
The best bet to seeing more tanks is to make roach/hydra more viable.
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On August 09 2013 18:00 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 17:45 Doublemint wrote:On August 09 2013 07:53 Big J wrote:
OK, I'm just watching WCS America and they switched to Alicia's view when he was scouting against Polt. Holy Moly, that sightrange of the MSC looked insane.
So I checked the numbers and I actually believe that this is an unintented mistake by blizzard: The mothership core has 14 sight range.
Other units in with equal or higher sight range? Mothership (14)
Next best sight range? BC, BL, Carrier (12)
Sightrange of noncapitalship air units: 10-11.
Seriously, I think blizzard simply forgot to adjust that value when creating the MSC (they probably just copied certain stats from the mothership early on). It should be 10 or 11. It's quite insane how much vision it gives and it makes absolutly no sense because it is completely out of line with the other "early" available air units. That is indeed an interesting find, however would this change all that much if they reduced it to say 11(which is the same ans an Ovie and more than appropriate me thinks)? Once again, the crucial question concerns siege tanks. Vikings could pick off the msc, but as Vikings have sight 10 and range 9, the msc can be safely within nexus cannon range. And if vikings follow the msc into nexus range, they get shot (and a viking dies to a nexus cannon in under 9 in-game seconds, while a viking kills a msc in 14 seconds). With zero micro, you'd need to sack 2 vikings to snipe the msc core giving vision to the nexus cannon firing on the tanks.
How is that a relevant situation? Nexus got 11 sight as does a tank but both have range 13. By the time you push with a tank and vikings, for whatever reason that may be, you have other problems than a Msc giving sight - units and the nexus cannon. Stalkers could shoot the vikings, or Phoenix, or whatever. And the MSC is pretty much the first thing that gets sniped in dicy situations as it is not made to outrun many units and other units will give sight.
//edit: forgot the most crucial part, observers!
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On August 09 2013 18:18 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 09 2013 17:45 Doublemint wrote:On August 09 2013 07:53 Big J wrote:
OK, I'm just watching WCS America and they switched to Alicia's view when he was scouting against Polt. Holy Moly, that sightrange of the MSC looked insane.
So I checked the numbers and I actually believe that this is an unintented mistake by blizzard: The mothership core has 14 sight range.
Other units in with equal or higher sight range? Mothership (14)
Next best sight range? BC, BL, Carrier (12)
Sightrange of noncapitalship air units: 10-11.
Seriously, I think blizzard simply forgot to adjust that value when creating the MSC (they probably just copied certain stats from the mothership early on). It should be 10 or 11. It's quite insane how much vision it gives and it makes absolutly no sense because it is completely out of line with the other "early" available air units. That is indeed an interesting find, however would this change all that much if they reduced it to say 11(which is the same ans an Ovie and more than appropriate me thinks)? Once again, the crucial question concerns siege tanks. Vikings could pick off the msc, but as Vikings have sight 10 and range 9, the msc can be safely within nexus cannon range. And if vikings follow the msc into nexus range, they get shot (and a viking dies to a nexus cannon in under 9 in-game seconds, while a viking kills a msc in 14 seconds). With zero micro, you'd need to sack 2 vikings to snipe the msc core giving vision to the nexus cannon firing on the tanks. How is that a relevant situation? Nexus got 11 sight as does a tank but both have range 13. By the time you push with a tank and vikings, for whatever reason that may be, you have other problems than a Msc giving sight - units and the nexus cannon. Stalkers could shoot the vikings, or Phoenix, or whatever. And the MSC is pretty much the first thing that gets sniped in dicy situations as it is not made to outrun many units and other units will give sight. //edit: forgot the most crucial part, observers!
Whenever anyone talks about the msc nerfs, 111 is always brought up. The nexus cannon has been designed to nullify tanks. Without 14 sight range on the msc, one could argue that the nexus is vulnerable to siege tank fire through scans. I wanted to point out that a sight reduction to 11 still allows the msc to be used for sight purposes when the P built no other units for that purpose (obs, halluc., phoenix, etc).
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On August 09 2013 17:59 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +But yeah, they just need to change blinding cloud, so it doesn't remove the range of all units effected, but reduces it by 3-5(like people have suggested). Will bring tanks back into TvZ How would it bring back tanks int TvZ if all what you need right now to win is marine + mine? The post you have quoted actually says the truth, and is full of very smart stuff like the need for both "demand" and "use" for mech. Your suggestion would fix the "use" part, but not the "demand" one as you do nothing to stop bio/mine being a staple to EVERY zerg composition.
Just call a spade a spade please and call "demand" a nerf. First off, changing vipers in this way, such as Big J has suggested would actually make them usable vs marines(well a lot more effective), so there is a certain nerf later on to bio mine in that change. Second I'm not saying that they wouldn't need to look closer at mines, personally I've never liked the unit. With a viper change, they'd still have to see how that pans out, but off the top of my head, making mines hitting ground unit not splash air and vice versa would be a possible nerf(since mines still need to be fairly effective defensively against mutas since they are really the only defense terran has vs new mutas).
+ Show Spoiler +Was alot more interested in the shredder, I mean originally the shredder was supposed to be a defensive unit, to help with runbys and stuff like that. Then they just seem to have gone "fuck it", made a combat unit that was supposed to go right into the deathball and has replaced the tank.
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On August 09 2013 18:26 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:18 Doublemint wrote:On August 09 2013 18:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 09 2013 17:45 Doublemint wrote:On August 09 2013 07:53 Big J wrote:
OK, I'm just watching WCS America and they switched to Alicia's view when he was scouting against Polt. Holy Moly, that sightrange of the MSC looked insane.
So I checked the numbers and I actually believe that this is an unintented mistake by blizzard: The mothership core has 14 sight range.
Other units in with equal or higher sight range? Mothership (14)
Next best sight range? BC, BL, Carrier (12)
Sightrange of noncapitalship air units: 10-11.
Seriously, I think blizzard simply forgot to adjust that value when creating the MSC (they probably just copied certain stats from the mothership early on). It should be 10 or 11. It's quite insane how much vision it gives and it makes absolutly no sense because it is completely out of line with the other "early" available air units. That is indeed an interesting find, however would this change all that much if they reduced it to say 11(which is the same ans an Ovie and more than appropriate me thinks)? Once again, the crucial question concerns siege tanks. Vikings could pick off the msc, but as Vikings have sight 10 and range 9, the msc can be safely within nexus cannon range. And if vikings follow the msc into nexus range, they get shot (and a viking dies to a nexus cannon in under 9 in-game seconds, while a viking kills a msc in 14 seconds). With zero micro, you'd need to sack 2 vikings to snipe the msc core giving vision to the nexus cannon firing on the tanks. How is that a relevant situation? Nexus got 11 sight as does a tank but both have range 13. By the time you push with a tank and vikings, for whatever reason that may be, you have other problems than a Msc giving sight - units and the nexus cannon. Stalkers could shoot the vikings, or Phoenix, or whatever. And the MSC is pretty much the first thing that gets sniped in dicy situations as it is not made to outrun many units and other units will give sight. //edit: forgot the most crucial part, observers! Whenever anyone talks about the msc nerfs, 111 is always brought up. The nexus cannon has been designed to nullify tanks. Without 14 sight range on the msc, one could argue that the nexus is vulnerable to siege tank fire through scans. I wanted to point out that a sight reduction to 11 still allows the msc to be used for sight purposes when the P built no other units for that purpose (obs, halluc., phoenix, etc).
I see, yet I still think it's hardly relevant as it would be quite a specific situation. 
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Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available.
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On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available.
- Allows unbelievable greed that is not punishable for Terran as we need to rely on the medivactimings , any aggression beforehand is pretty simply to put down for Protoss and should be no threat. That you sometimes see a Protoss receiving damage is down to the mistakes they make (crucial tech outside of photon overcharge range, for example)
- While a defensive tool unmatched in its power, it also is great at scouting and has aggressive potential to make allins even stronger (oracle + msc, voidrays+msc)
- The midgame strength of Protoss is now even compared to Terran, as Terrans 'rarely' are greedy nowadays as its very risky against Protoss and while Protoss was vulnerable to drops etc in WoL, they now will have an advantage in midgame, as the greed already paid of by the 10 minute mark
Just a few examples.
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On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available.
While I'm not yet convinced it's OP, the problem people are discussing is the greed P players can go for safely using the nexus cannon. We are seeing triple nexus + tech off of nearly no units (both in PvT and PvZ), which is made safe thanks to the nexus cannon. So, the issue isn't with attacking P that has sentries, it's about about the P not having to build those sentries.
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On August 09 2013 18:17 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 17:34 Zarahtra wrote:
Edit: But yeah, they just need to change blinding cloud, so it doesn't remove the range of all units effected, but reduces it by 3-5(like people have suggested). Will bring tanks back into TvZ and make blinding cloud usuable vs more targets. Seeing as infestors were essentially killed(thank fuck for that stupid unit being gone) I feel vipers being zergs primary caster should have more of a core role in the game, especially ZvT. Currently it just pretty much hard counters mech and has it's uses in ZvP. Adjusting just blinding cloud will do little for mech as abduct will become a even bigger problem. And even if you were to nerf that there are still swarm hosts, mutas and broodlords. Mech just got too weak to salvage by now. The best bet to seeing more tanks is to make roach/hydra more viable.
I'd have to disagree here. Abduct would still be very strong no doubt, but with a nerfed blinding cloud for tanks, they could actually group up, rather than be forced to spread out. Also while a viper is abducting, he risks getting killed by vikings, so there is a certain battle there between the T and Z(similar to ghost vs ht). The battle was there I suppose for blinding cloud, but when blinding clouding you are about to crush into the terran losing the vipers matters little if they get the clouds down, but abduct needs to be somewhat cost effective.
Swarm hosts are imo only really a problem since vipers force you to spread out your tanks and then the locust always reaches the front tank and is able to kill it and wittle down the tanks that way.
Mutas... Well they are kind of a coin flip imo. If you see them coming and have thors/mines/hellbats you can just walk over the zerg. If you don't, he can keep resetting your thor count and you loose. Dunno, if anything I feel zerg is on the worse end atm with mutas.
Broodlords just suck. Now that infestors aren't insanely imbalanced, broods are more like bcs. If you got them, you've probably already won. If the zerg makes broods, I'm just glad tbh. It's an obvious tech switch, slow and straight up not that strong. Well controlled mines + vikings(+ thors) > corruptors. There are plenty of things I fear much more than that.
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On August 09 2013 18:40 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available. - Allows unbelievable greed that is not punishable for Terran as we need to rely on the medivactimings , any aggression beforehand is pretty simply to put down for Protoss and should be no threat. That you sometimes see a Protoss receiving damage is down to the mistakes they make (crucial tech outside of photon overcharge range, for example) - While a defensive tool unmatched in its power, it also is great at scouting and has aggressive potential to make allins even stronger (oracle + msc, voidrays+msc) - The midgame strength of Protoss is now even compared to Terran, as Terrans 'rarely' are greedy nowadays as its very risky against Protoss and while Protoss was vulnerable to drops etc in WoL, they now will have an advantage in midgame, as the greed already paid of by the 10 minute mark Just a few examples.
So basically it's mostly a big problem for super high level players? I see then.
For me, I like games where it goes into a macro game. I think it allows for better game and better metagame evolution.
I would love to see siege tanks be buffes though, I think it's too weak in tvz and tvp
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1395 Posts
Where do you read it is mostly a problem for super high level players? Nothing in his post indicates that.
I wouldn't be surprised if it is the opposite. Since WoL already many 'regular' Terran players vs Toss like to go all-in or at least with a relative quick timing attack, since they don't have the micro the super high level players have to dodge storms while EMP'ing and killing colossi fast enough. And quite some of those tactics aren't viable anymore.
On August 09 2013 18:17 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 17:34 Zarahtra wrote:
Edit: But yeah, they just need to change blinding cloud, so it doesn't remove the range of all units effected, but reduces it by 3-5(like people have suggested). Will bring tanks back into TvZ and make blinding cloud usuable vs more targets. Seeing as infestors were essentially killed(thank fuck for that stupid unit being gone) I feel vipers being zergs primary caster should have more of a core role in the game, especially ZvT. Currently it just pretty much hard counters mech and has it's uses in ZvP. Adjusting just blinding cloud will do little for mech as abduct will become a even bigger problem. And even if you were to nerf that there are still swarm hosts, mutas and broodlords. Mech just got too weak to salvage by now. The best bet to seeing more tanks is to make roach/hydra more viable.
Abduct and blinding cloud are completely different problems for mech. Abduct is irritating yes, but it is one unit at a time, and quite frankly I barely see it used as mech player. Meanwhile blinding cloud is a spell that quite often has as effect instantly killing your entire army. Somehow I am more afraid of that.
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On August 09 2013 17:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 17:34 Zarahtra wrote:On August 09 2013 06:11 LSN wrote:On August 09 2013 02:49 Thruth wrote:On August 09 2013 01:48 Tyrhanius wrote:
Let's say 1 gaz = 4 mineral (because there's 4 times more mineral patch than gaz patch in a expansion).
To be cost effective :
2 zerglings need to kill 1 marine, so 40 zergling need to kill 20marines. With steam, the range, and medivac which heal it's never happened.
2 baneling need to kill 6 marines
1 Roach need to kill 3 marines
1 infestor need to kill 14 marines.
1 mutas need to kill 10 marines
1 SH need to kill 12 marines.
1 Ultralisk need to kill 22 marines.
1 broodlord need to kill 26 marines.
And this means if 1 ultra kill 22 marines, the thing are even for both player, so Zerg need to take >22 with his ultra to be ahead.
Add mines, hellbats, marauders :
Now just rewatch the fight where you thought Zerg has won, and see that most of the time Zerg lost more than Terran. Obviously Unit cost is not everything, supply army remaining, the ability to go in your opponent base is important too. But in a macro game, just consider how cost effective is the terran army. You dont need 12 workers to mine from 1 asymilator, thus your calculations are invalid. Also you forget that higher mobility allows you to get more bases and income. While I support your argumentation I think you can roughly count 1gas = 2 minerals. It is completely right what you say that you can gather 4 times as much minerals than gas from one expansion (at the same time) but at the same time you need roughly only 50% as much gas as you need minerals. So the calculation roughly is 1gas *4 /2 = 2. This is true for zerg, probably also for protoss or for protoss gas values even higher due to HT/Archon(roughly). For Terran in TvZ the calculation would be different. Terran needs much less gas in TvZ. As terran units neither have extraordinary high nor low mineral costs this calculation is not important for terran tho. You can just say terran needs no gas at all in TvZ as they always have enaugh gas for what they want to spend their minerals on after the very early stages have passed (gas = ubiquity for terrans). Therefore terran units in TvZ basically cost only minerals and no gas at all, even when medivacs e.g. cost 100 gas, its not a matter of terran thinking "where do I better spend the gas on on medivacs or another gas costy unit?". Terrans just look at the mineral counts and what to occupy their production cycles with (time) as a resource. Basically terran has been robbed one dimension of strategical ressource planning/decision making in TvZ as a matter of fact. This is one of the big design flaws that we are experiencing in TvZ now that of course has impact on balance. The impact on balance is that the Z opponent cant cause damage on the terran when killing gas heavy units in the matter of pure gas costs. Losing a medivac costs the terran 100 minerals and the production time, not the gas, as he has enaugh gas to replenish as many medivacs as he ever wants to. Evidence for this is that in long games terrans don't even build refineries at base 4 and 5 and still have a big stock of gas unless they switch to mech/air/raven. Another impact on balance is that killing/denying terrans 4th base doesnt damage the terran as much as it should as commonly agreed on. Because mules can temporarily be dropped at another running base and the gas of base 4 or 5 is absolutely not needed. On the other way round zerg strongly needs as much gas as possible and a 4th or 5th base being denied or destroyed has a big impact on zerg gameplay. Furthermore Z cant drop mules elsewhere and zerg does absolutely need the gas. If this gas issue could be fixed alot will have been done for equalizing opportunities in this matchup. And the way to fix it is to implement mech into TvZ metagame. The gas limits the amount of extra mech units that can be build. To implement mech blizzard needs to do 2 things: 1. create demand for mech 2. create use for mech 1. Demand for mech can be created when bio/mine stops roflstomping every zerg composition 2. Use for mech can be created when any (a few) zerg compositions stops roflstomping mech Of course this would move TvZ away from this 1-dimensional metagame that it has right now and allow quite interesting compositions, tech switches on both sides. It would allow mixed armies bio/mech on the terran side and this would bring back alot of zerg units/abilities into the game as well. Also this would lead to more smoth air transitions for terrans. When writing all this I wonder how only few people can recognize how stupid this basically pure marine gameplay is. It doesnt even make sense to build future balance upon it if blizzard wants to get things right. While I certainly agree with most of what you said, the bolded part I feel is still questionable. The only tech switch a terran can make is to start adding in ravens and BCs(which is more of a "I've won already"). I find it quite interesting though, how big of an issue the lack of gas requirement is for TvZ compared to TvP. TvP has always had abundance of gas after you've started +2/+2 and even though you add in ghosts in TvP that cost 100 gas, the fact they cost 200 minerals is a lot bigger issue. It has always frustrated me, especially in TvP how terran can do fuck-all with their gas compared to zerg and protoss. I mean I think terran is the coolest race in synergy, but I envy zerg and especially protoss though with their gas sinks, making their macro later into the game a lot more forgiving and interesting. Edit: But yeah, they just need to change blinding cloud, so it doesn't remove the range of all units effected, but reduces it by 3-5(like people have suggested). Will bring tanks back into TvZ and make blinding cloud usuable vs more targets. Seeing as infestors were essentially killed(thank fuck for that stupid unit being gone) I feel vipers being zergs primary caster should have more of a core role in the game, especially ZvT. Currently it just pretty much hard counters mech and has it's uses in ZvP. Every potential endgame unit has an insane supply cost of 3 and above, AND significantly reduced in burst damage. For example, the SC2 BC is a joke, BW BCs could one shot a marine AND with Defense Matrix take on between 12-24 stimmed marines before being seriously wounded.
...not unless you're talking about yamato cannon
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On August 09 2013 18:44 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available. While I'm not yet convinced it's OP, the problem people are discussing is the greed P players can go for safely using the nexus cannon. We are seeing triple nexus + tech off of nearly no units (both in PvT and PvZ), which is made safe thanks to the nexus cannon. So, the issue isn't with attacking P that has sentries, it's about about the P not having to build those sentries.
Zerg goes triple hatch + tech off of nearly no units. I don't see the problem.
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On August 10 2013 00:14 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:44 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available. While I'm not yet convinced it's OP, the problem people are discussing is the greed P players can go for safely using the nexus cannon. We are seeing triple nexus + tech off of nearly no units (both in PvT and PvZ), which is made safe thanks to the nexus cannon. So, the issue isn't with attacking P that has sentries, it's about about the P not having to build those sentries. Zerg goes triple hatch + tech off of nearly no units. I don't see the problem.
um, that's because zerg is taking advantage of terran going 1rax FE or FFE from toss.
that comparison would more fitted for zerg going quad hatch
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On August 09 2013 22:14 faderedguy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:40 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available. - Allows unbelievable greed that is not punishable for Terran as we need to rely on the medivactimings , any aggression beforehand is pretty simply to put down for Protoss and should be no threat. That you sometimes see a Protoss receiving damage is down to the mistakes they make (crucial tech outside of photon overcharge range, for example) - While a defensive tool unmatched in its power, it also is great at scouting and has aggressive potential to make allins even stronger (oracle + msc, voidrays+msc) - The midgame strength of Protoss is now even compared to Terran, as Terrans 'rarely' are greedy nowadays as its very risky against Protoss and while Protoss was vulnerable to drops etc in WoL, they now will have an advantage in midgame, as the greed already paid of by the 10 minute mark Just a few examples. So basically it's mostly a big problem for super high level players? I see then. For me, I like games where it goes into a macro game. I think it allows for better game and better metagame evolution. I would love to see siege tanks be buffes though, I think it's too weak in tvz and tvp
Its actually 'less' of a problem to super high level players. INnoVation will find any crack in the armor no matter how perfect you play because he's just insanely good, but everything below that (and there are also Terrans way above European and American level that are BELOW INnovation by a big margin) struggle, as they cannot hit perfection and those insane timing windows etc.
So overall the "worse" the Terran gets, the bigger the problem is.
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On August 10 2013 00:18 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:14 Reborn8u wrote:On August 09 2013 18:44 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available. While I'm not yet convinced it's OP, the problem people are discussing is the greed P players can go for safely using the nexus cannon. We are seeing triple nexus + tech off of nearly no units (both in PvT and PvZ), which is made safe thanks to the nexus cannon. So, the issue isn't with attacking P that has sentries, it's about about the P not having to build those sentries. Zerg goes triple hatch + tech off of nearly no units. I don't see the problem. um, that's because zerg is taking advantage of terran going 1rax FE or FFE from toss. that comparison would more fitted for zerg going quad hatch
???
Protoss is taking advantage of Zerg going triple hatch and late speed in the standard macro game of PvZ, if they take the third that early.
Protoss is taking advantage of Terran going for fixed timings that hit too late to punish the third Nexus.
There is no inherent problem with Protoss doing this. The question is, whether this kind of gameplay leads to imbalances. Which is far too early to call.
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On August 10 2013 00:14 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:44 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available. While I'm not yet convinced it's OP, the problem people are discussing is the greed P players can go for safely using the nexus cannon. We are seeing triple nexus + tech off of nearly no units (both in PvT and PvZ), which is made safe thanks to the nexus cannon. So, the issue isn't with attacking P that has sentries, it's about about the P not having to build those sentries. Zerg goes triple hatch + tech off of nearly no units. I don't see the problem.
These days zergs don't actually do that. Sure they go triple hatch, but they don't rush tech and are on hatch and lair tech for a much longer period of time. If you remember back when zergs would 3 hatch 6 queen hive rush into broodlord/infestor, people complained a lot about it.
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On August 10 2013 00:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:18 ETisME wrote:On August 10 2013 00:14 Reborn8u wrote:On August 09 2013 18:44 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available. While I'm not yet convinced it's OP, the problem people are discussing is the greed P players can go for safely using the nexus cannon. We are seeing triple nexus + tech off of nearly no units (both in PvT and PvZ), which is made safe thanks to the nexus cannon. So, the issue isn't with attacking P that has sentries, it's about about the P not having to build those sentries. Zerg goes triple hatch + tech off of nearly no units. I don't see the problem. um, that's because zerg is taking advantage of terran going 1rax FE or FFE from toss. that comparison would more fitted for zerg going quad hatch ??? Protoss is taking advantage of Zerg going triple hatch and late speed in the standard macro game of PvZ, if they take the third that early. Protoss is taking advantage of Terran going for fixed timings that hit too late to punish the third Nexus. There is no inherent problem with Protoss doing this. The question is, whether this kind of gameplay leads to imbalances. Which is far too early to call.
?? Protoss is taking advantage of the MSC core, that allows for greed that is not punishable with any timing. The timings that Terrans 'go for' are not 'most common' between various timings, but the only midgame timing Terran has with medivacs. We have no way of pressuring beforehand.
I don't see how its a reaction of Protoss being greedy. You should listen to the last meta. Even IdrA who doesn't even mainly play Terran does realize that if you would want to punish Protoss, you would have to commit even before you know that he is greedy. So for Terran its merely flipping the coin, if you go for something like Bomber (Hellion/Marine) and Protoss wasn't greedy as shit and is prepared like Rain, he'll crush you without any hesitation afterwards. If he was greedy on the other hand, he still is not guaranteed to die but at least your goal could probably be achieved.
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I think there is no way around nerfs for toss/terran or a buff for zerg so zerg can catch up.
We see zergs falling left and right in the korean scene, zerg cannot effort to make any mistakes at the highest level of play where as terran or toss have a little room for error. Zerg has no room for errors at all, that is why they fall apart.
Bio/mine/medivacs are too strong and zerg is basically playing WOL with mutas that are faster.+
We can see the winrates falling below 40% in any zvsp and zvst and i dont think this will change anytime soon, it wont change at all. In the next 2-3months blizzard will react accordingly, it is not a question IF there is a buff for zerg nerf for other races but HOW this buff is done at all.
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On August 10 2013 00:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:18 ETisME wrote:On August 10 2013 00:14 Reborn8u wrote:On August 09 2013 18:44 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available. While I'm not yet convinced it's OP, the problem people are discussing is the greed P players can go for safely using the nexus cannon. We are seeing triple nexus + tech off of nearly no units (both in PvT and PvZ), which is made safe thanks to the nexus cannon. So, the issue isn't with attacking P that has sentries, it's about about the P not having to build those sentries. Zerg goes triple hatch + tech off of nearly no units. I don't see the problem. um, that's because zerg is taking advantage of terran going 1rax FE or FFE from toss. that comparison would more fitted for zerg going quad hatch ??? Protoss is taking advantage of Zerg going triple hatch and late speed in the standard macro game of PvZ, if they take the third that early. Protoss is taking advantage of Terran going for fixed timings that hit too late to punish the third Nexus. There is no inherent problem with Protoss doing this. The question is, whether this kind of gameplay leads to imbalances. Which is far too early to call.
agree with your post. except:
disagree with it being too early to call, i think it's pretty obvious.
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EPT
