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On August 10 2013 01:24 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:22 Big J wrote:On August 10 2013 00:18 ETisME wrote:On August 10 2013 00:14 Reborn8u wrote:On August 09 2013 18:44 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available. While I'm not yet convinced it's OP, the problem people are discussing is the greed P players can go for safely using the nexus cannon. We are seeing triple nexus + tech off of nearly no units (both in PvT and PvZ), which is made safe thanks to the nexus cannon. So, the issue isn't with attacking P that has sentries, it's about about the P not having to build those sentries. Zerg goes triple hatch + tech off of nearly no units. I don't see the problem. um, that's because zerg is taking advantage of terran going 1rax FE or FFE from toss. that comparison would more fitted for zerg going quad hatch ??? Protoss is taking advantage of Zerg going triple hatch and late speed in the standard macro game of PvZ, if they take the third that early. Protoss is taking advantage of Terran going for fixed timings that hit too late to punish the third Nexus. There is no inherent problem with Protoss doing this. The question is, whether this kind of gameplay leads to imbalances. Which is far too early to call. ?? Protoss is taking advantage of the MSC core, that allows for greed that is not punishable with any timing. The timings that Terrans 'go for' are not 'most common' between various timings, but the only midgame timing Terran has with medivacs. We have no way of pressuring beforehand. I don't see how its a reaction of Protoss being greedy. You should listen to the last meta. Even IdrA who doesn't even mainly play Terran does realize that if you would want to punish Protoss, you would have to commit even before you know that he is greedy. So for Terran its merely flipping the coin, if you go for something like Bomber (Hellion/Marine) and Protoss wasn't greedy as shit and is prepared like Rain, he'll crush you without any hesitation afterwards. If he was greedy on the other hand, he still is not guaranteed to die but at least your goal could probably be achieved.
Of course the "take advantage" of the Core. that merely means that they are uaing it properly. If this allows Protoss to take a third base without dying to anything (statistically speaking), then be it so. that doesnt make the game imbalanced. It (amongst other things) makes it imbalanced if the matchups arent fair anymore.
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On August 10 2013 01:48 Sokrates wrote:
I think there is no way around nerfs for toss/terran or a buff for zerg so zerg can catch up.
We see zergs falling left and right in the korean scene, zerg cannot effort to make any mistakes at the highest level of play where as terran or toss have a little room for error. Zerg has no room for errors at all, that is why they fall apart.
Bio/mine/medivacs are too strong and zerg is basically playing WOL with mutas that are faster.+
We can see the winrates falling below 40% in any zvsp and zvst and i dont think this will change anytime soon, it wont change at all. In the next 2-3months blizzard will react accordingly, it is not a question IF there is a buff for zerg nerf for other races but HOW this buff is done at all.
funny observation:
1) terrans say zvt was fine muta ling bling into hive vs marine tank in wol
2) long term win rates and overall results (gomtvtvtvt era) suggested terran was slightly favored in that scenario, mutas were completely replaced by infestor based play
3) even terrans say widow mines are WAY superior to tanks, like, it's not even close.
4) zerg still has muta ling bling and cant even transition into hive
terrans now say muta ling bling vs biomine is balanced.
makes perfect sense, right?
(muta movespeed buff vs medivac speed buff and indirect army speed buff cause no tanks pretty much cancel each other out)
off to watch TI3.
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On August 10 2013 00:01 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 17:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On August 09 2013 17:34 Zarahtra wrote:On August 09 2013 06:11 LSN wrote:On August 09 2013 02:49 Thruth wrote:On August 09 2013 01:48 Tyrhanius wrote:
Let's say 1 gaz = 4 mineral (because there's 4 times more mineral patch than gaz patch in a expansion).
To be cost effective :
2 zerglings need to kill 1 marine, so 40 zergling need to kill 20marines. With steam, the range, and medivac which heal it's never happened.
2 baneling need to kill 6 marines
1 Roach need to kill 3 marines
1 infestor need to kill 14 marines.
1 mutas need to kill 10 marines
1 SH need to kill 12 marines.
1 Ultralisk need to kill 22 marines.
1 broodlord need to kill 26 marines.
And this means if 1 ultra kill 22 marines, the thing are even for both player, so Zerg need to take >22 with his ultra to be ahead.
Add mines, hellbats, marauders :
Now just rewatch the fight where you thought Zerg has won, and see that most of the time Zerg lost more than Terran. Obviously Unit cost is not everything, supply army remaining, the ability to go in your opponent base is important too. But in a macro game, just consider how cost effective is the terran army. You dont need 12 workers to mine from 1 asymilator, thus your calculations are invalid. Also you forget that higher mobility allows you to get more bases and income. While I support your argumentation I think you can roughly count 1gas = 2 minerals. It is completely right what you say that you can gather 4 times as much minerals than gas from one expansion (at the same time) but at the same time you need roughly only 50% as much gas as you need minerals. So the calculation roughly is 1gas *4 /2 = 2. This is true for zerg, probably also for protoss or for protoss gas values even higher due to HT/Archon(roughly). For Terran in TvZ the calculation would be different. Terran needs much less gas in TvZ. As terran units neither have extraordinary high nor low mineral costs this calculation is not important for terran tho. You can just say terran needs no gas at all in TvZ as they always have enaugh gas for what they want to spend their minerals on after the very early stages have passed (gas = ubiquity for terrans). Therefore terran units in TvZ basically cost only minerals and no gas at all, even when medivacs e.g. cost 100 gas, its not a matter of terran thinking "where do I better spend the gas on on medivacs or another gas costy unit?". Terrans just look at the mineral counts and what to occupy their production cycles with (time) as a resource. Basically terran has been robbed one dimension of strategical ressource planning/decision making in TvZ as a matter of fact. This is one of the big design flaws that we are experiencing in TvZ now that of course has impact on balance. The impact on balance is that the Z opponent cant cause damage on the terran when killing gas heavy units in the matter of pure gas costs. Losing a medivac costs the terran 100 minerals and the production time, not the gas, as he has enaugh gas to replenish as many medivacs as he ever wants to. Evidence for this is that in long games terrans don't even build refineries at base 4 and 5 and still have a big stock of gas unless they switch to mech/air/raven. Another impact on balance is that killing/denying terrans 4th base doesnt damage the terran as much as it should as commonly agreed on. Because mules can temporarily be dropped at another running base and the gas of base 4 or 5 is absolutely not needed. On the other way round zerg strongly needs as much gas as possible and a 4th or 5th base being denied or destroyed has a big impact on zerg gameplay. Furthermore Z cant drop mules elsewhere and zerg does absolutely need the gas. If this gas issue could be fixed alot will have been done for equalizing opportunities in this matchup. And the way to fix it is to implement mech into TvZ metagame. The gas limits the amount of extra mech units that can be build. To implement mech blizzard needs to do 2 things: 1. create demand for mech 2. create use for mech 1. Demand for mech can be created when bio/mine stops roflstomping every zerg composition 2. Use for mech can be created when any (a few) zerg compositions stops roflstomping mech Of course this would move TvZ away from this 1-dimensional metagame that it has right now and allow quite interesting compositions, tech switches on both sides. It would allow mixed armies bio/mech on the terran side and this would bring back alot of zerg units/abilities into the game as well. Also this would lead to more smoth air transitions for terrans. When writing all this I wonder how only few people can recognize how stupid this basically pure marine gameplay is. It doesnt even make sense to build future balance upon it if blizzard wants to get things right. While I certainly agree with most of what you said, the bolded part I feel is still questionable. The only tech switch a terran can make is to start adding in ravens and BCs(which is more of a "I've won already"). I find it quite interesting though, how big of an issue the lack of gas requirement is for TvZ compared to TvP. TvP has always had abundance of gas after you've started +2/+2 and even though you add in ghosts in TvP that cost 100 gas, the fact they cost 200 minerals is a lot bigger issue. It has always frustrated me, especially in TvP how terran can do fuck-all with their gas compared to zerg and protoss. I mean I think terran is the coolest race in synergy, but I envy zerg and especially protoss though with their gas sinks, making their macro later into the game a lot more forgiving and interesting. Edit: But yeah, they just need to change blinding cloud, so it doesn't remove the range of all units effected, but reduces it by 3-5(like people have suggested). Will bring tanks back into TvZ and make blinding cloud usuable vs more targets. Seeing as infestors were essentially killed(thank fuck for that stupid unit being gone) I feel vipers being zergs primary caster should have more of a core role in the game, especially ZvT. Currently it just pretty much hard counters mech and has it's uses in ZvP. Every potential endgame unit has an insane supply cost of 3 and above, AND significantly reduced in burst damage. For example, the SC2 BC is a joke, BW BCs could one shot a marine AND with Defense Matrix take on between 12-24 stimmed marines before being seriously wounded. ...not unless you're talking about yamato cannon
D'oh! I meant two shot... Two shot a marine
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On August 10 2013 05:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:24 NarutO wrote:On August 10 2013 00:22 Big J wrote:On August 10 2013 00:18 ETisME wrote:On August 10 2013 00:14 Reborn8u wrote:On August 09 2013 18:44 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available. While I'm not yet convinced it's OP, the problem people are discussing is the greed P players can go for safely using the nexus cannon. We are seeing triple nexus + tech off of nearly no units (both in PvT and PvZ), which is made safe thanks to the nexus cannon. So, the issue isn't with attacking P that has sentries, it's about about the P not having to build those sentries. Zerg goes triple hatch + tech off of nearly no units. I don't see the problem. um, that's because zerg is taking advantage of terran going 1rax FE or FFE from toss. that comparison would more fitted for zerg going quad hatch ??? Protoss is taking advantage of Zerg going triple hatch and late speed in the standard macro game of PvZ, if they take the third that early. Protoss is taking advantage of Terran going for fixed timings that hit too late to punish the third Nexus. There is no inherent problem with Protoss doing this. The question is, whether this kind of gameplay leads to imbalances. Which is far too early to call. ?? Protoss is taking advantage of the MSC core, that allows for greed that is not punishable with any timing. The timings that Terrans 'go for' are not 'most common' between various timings, but the only midgame timing Terran has with medivacs. We have no way of pressuring beforehand. I don't see how its a reaction of Protoss being greedy. You should listen to the last meta. Even IdrA who doesn't even mainly play Terran does realize that if you would want to punish Protoss, you would have to commit even before you know that he is greedy. So for Terran its merely flipping the coin, if you go for something like Bomber (Hellion/Marine) and Protoss wasn't greedy as shit and is prepared like Rain, he'll crush you without any hesitation afterwards. If he was greedy on the other hand, he still is not guaranteed to die but at least your goal could probably be achieved. Of course the "take advantage" of the Core. that merely means that they are uaing it properly. If this allows Protoss to take a third base without dying to anything (statistically speaking), then be it so. that doesnt make the game imbalanced. It (amongst other things) makes it imbalanced if the matchups arent fair anymore.
Yes, exactly this fact does make it imbalanced, because balance would mean that the opponent if he cannot punish it, at least could play just as greedy. If he cannot, he would need an option to punish it. Both options are merely chances you take. If you are greedy Protoss can punish you. If Protoss is greedy you would need to go for a build that punishes greed in the first place, but since you cannot know, this is kind of a coinflip. IdrA also pointed that out several times. #
And its not even about that simple matter, there are a lot of things in TvP which feel wrong. For example you would need to blindly know if you need to wall or not. If its against a blink allin, you simply dont want to have a wall, because you will lose supplies. Against a double proxygate on the other hand, a wall would be great.
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On August 10 2013 16:02 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 05:24 Big J wrote:On August 10 2013 01:24 NarutO wrote:On August 10 2013 00:22 Big J wrote:On August 10 2013 00:18 ETisME wrote:On August 10 2013 00:14 Reborn8u wrote:On August 09 2013 18:44 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available. While I'm not yet convinced it's OP, the problem people are discussing is the greed P players can go for safely using the nexus cannon. We are seeing triple nexus + tech off of nearly no units (both in PvT and PvZ), which is made safe thanks to the nexus cannon. So, the issue isn't with attacking P that has sentries, it's about about the P not having to build those sentries. Zerg goes triple hatch + tech off of nearly no units. I don't see the problem. um, that's because zerg is taking advantage of terran going 1rax FE or FFE from toss. that comparison would more fitted for zerg going quad hatch ??? Protoss is taking advantage of Zerg going triple hatch and late speed in the standard macro game of PvZ, if they take the third that early. Protoss is taking advantage of Terran going for fixed timings that hit too late to punish the third Nexus. There is no inherent problem with Protoss doing this. The question is, whether this kind of gameplay leads to imbalances. Which is far too early to call. ?? Protoss is taking advantage of the MSC core, that allows for greed that is not punishable with any timing. The timings that Terrans 'go for' are not 'most common' between various timings, but the only midgame timing Terran has with medivacs. We have no way of pressuring beforehand. I don't see how its a reaction of Protoss being greedy. You should listen to the last meta. Even IdrA who doesn't even mainly play Terran does realize that if you would want to punish Protoss, you would have to commit even before you know that he is greedy. So for Terran its merely flipping the coin, if you go for something like Bomber (Hellion/Marine) and Protoss wasn't greedy as shit and is prepared like Rain, he'll crush you without any hesitation afterwards. If he was greedy on the other hand, he still is not guaranteed to die but at least your goal could probably be achieved. Of course the "take advantage" of the Core. that merely means that they are uaing it properly. If this allows Protoss to take a third base without dying to anything (statistically speaking), then be it so. that doesnt make the game imbalanced. It (amongst other things) makes it imbalanced if the matchups arent fair anymore. Yes, exactly this fact does make it imbalanced, because balance would mean that the opponent if he cannot punish it, at least could play just as greedy. If he cannot, he would need an option to punish it. Both options are merely chances you take. If you are greedy Protoss can punish you. If Protoss is greedy you would need to go for a build that punishes greed in the first place, but since you cannot know, this is kind of a coinflip. IdrA also pointed that out several times. # And its not even about that simple matter, there are a lot of things in TvP which feel wrong. For example you would need to blindly know if you need to wall or not. If its against a blink allin, you simply dont want to have a wall, because you will lose supplies. Against a double proxygate on the other hand, a wall would be great.
Well this is kind of a ridiculous statement to make, you just can't have it both ways. T is like the only race that can hide its tech very effectively and safely and deny the very crucial scout for P for quite some time. Not having any penalty for that in any way would feel wrong. And proxy gates are done very rarely as far as I can tell - last was the failed one from Myungsik a couple of weeks ago?
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On August 10 2013 16:13 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 16:02 NarutO wrote:On August 10 2013 05:24 Big J wrote:On August 10 2013 01:24 NarutO wrote:On August 10 2013 00:22 Big J wrote:On August 10 2013 00:18 ETisME wrote:On August 10 2013 00:14 Reborn8u wrote:On August 09 2013 18:44 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 09 2013 18:36 faderedguy wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate why people think MsC is overpowered?
Mass recall seems broken but I have not seen enough to say that it's imba.
And nexus cannon (at least for zerg) is not a MAJOR problem since we usually don't bother with attacking a protoss with forcefields available. While I'm not yet convinced it's OP, the problem people are discussing is the greed P players can go for safely using the nexus cannon. We are seeing triple nexus + tech off of nearly no units (both in PvT and PvZ), which is made safe thanks to the nexus cannon. So, the issue isn't with attacking P that has sentries, it's about about the P not having to build those sentries. Zerg goes triple hatch + tech off of nearly no units. I don't see the problem. um, that's because zerg is taking advantage of terran going 1rax FE or FFE from toss. that comparison would more fitted for zerg going quad hatch ??? Protoss is taking advantage of Zerg going triple hatch and late speed in the standard macro game of PvZ, if they take the third that early. Protoss is taking advantage of Terran going for fixed timings that hit too late to punish the third Nexus. There is no inherent problem with Protoss doing this. The question is, whether this kind of gameplay leads to imbalances. Which is far too early to call. ?? Protoss is taking advantage of the MSC core, that allows for greed that is not punishable with any timing. The timings that Terrans 'go for' are not 'most common' between various timings, but the only midgame timing Terran has with medivacs. We have no way of pressuring beforehand. I don't see how its a reaction of Protoss being greedy. You should listen to the last meta. Even IdrA who doesn't even mainly play Terran does realize that if you would want to punish Protoss, you would have to commit even before you know that he is greedy. So for Terran its merely flipping the coin, if you go for something like Bomber (Hellion/Marine) and Protoss wasn't greedy as shit and is prepared like Rain, he'll crush you without any hesitation afterwards. If he was greedy on the other hand, he still is not guaranteed to die but at least your goal could probably be achieved. Of course the "take advantage" of the Core. that merely means that they are uaing it properly. If this allows Protoss to take a third base without dying to anything (statistically speaking), then be it so. that doesnt make the game imbalanced. It (amongst other things) makes it imbalanced if the matchups arent fair anymore. Yes, exactly this fact does make it imbalanced, because balance would mean that the opponent if he cannot punish it, at least could play just as greedy. If he cannot, he would need an option to punish it. Both options are merely chances you take. If you are greedy Protoss can punish you. If Protoss is greedy you would need to go for a build that punishes greed in the first place, but since you cannot know, this is kind of a coinflip. IdrA also pointed that out several times. # And its not even about that simple matter, there are a lot of things in TvP which feel wrong. For example you would need to blindly know if you need to wall or not. If its against a blink allin, you simply dont want to have a wall, because you will lose supplies. Against a double proxygate on the other hand, a wall would be great. Well this is kind of a ridiculous statement to make, you just can't have it both ways. T is like the only race that can hide its tech very effectively and safely and deny the very crucial scout for P for quite some time. Not having any penalty for that in any way would feel wrong. And proxy gates are done very rarely as far as I can tell - last was the failed one from Myungsik a couple of weeks ago?
it doesn't matter at all when the things you can hide behind a wall (mine drop/cloakshee) are all held by the same standard greedy P build (msc expo ~5:10? robo). i have no idea what crucial scout you could be referring to. the most threatening things to P right now in the early game are proxies (11-11, reaper hellion or reaper mine) and the early marine hellion pokes that u can just hold with decent unit control/positioning, without really any scouting info.
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How many gasses are taken for how long. And yes it could be Mine/Helliondrop and behind an expansion or simply an expansion on the high ground. The fact that you have the P guessing and in the dark is pretty good I would think.
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On August 10 2013 16:27 Doublemint wrote:
How many gasses are taken for how long. And yes it could be Mine/Helliondrop and behind an expansion or simply an expansion on the high ground. The fact that you have the P guessing and in the dark is pretty good I would think.
Dont you understand that it does not matter? The MSC expand and detection afterwards does hold any aggression Terran can bring. Furthermore you would be able to scout with the msc core before the aggression actually hits. A proper reaction to marine/hellion will shut it down so hard that you would not believe it in the first place.
"We cant have it both ways" We are not walling because we want to hide shit, we are walling to put something between us and aggression. If you watch ladder or play Terran on higher level , lots of - if not most - Protoss play without any scouting up until 6-7 minutes, because its not needed. Thats how strong the MSC is. I would suggest always poking with marines, but the reality is, that is once again flipping the coin. If he decided to put down gateways instead of greed you will run into warpins and have nothing left home and as a matter of fact, in WoL the marinepoke was common because there was a chance of reward. It was as risky, but you had the chance to deal damage if he was greedy. Nowadays even if he was greedy and your marine poke works, you will not be rewarded the slightest.
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On August 10 2013 16:47 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 16:27 Doublemint wrote:
How many gasses are taken for how long. And yes it could be Mine/Helliondrop and behind an expansion or simply an expansion on the high ground. The fact that you have the P guessing and in the dark is pretty good I would think. Dont you understand that it does not matter? The MSC expand and detection afterwards does hold any aggression Terran can bring. Furthermore you would be able to scout with the msc core before the aggression actually hits. A proper reaction to marine/hellion will shut it down so hard that you would not believe it in the first place. "We cant have it both ways" We are not walling because we want to hide shit, we are walling to put something between us and aggression.
I don't know - I have two terrans who are way better than me telling me all the cons they face.Their bias and frustration paired with experience showing through.
I'll just take your word for it, however, I am not quite satisfied that TvP is as terrible as some make it out to be - especially on the highest level.
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Jesus, you guys are repeating again and again for 3 years. About everything you talk about Terran's economy and its anomaly have existed since the beginning of WOL. At the time I thought the best way to fix it was to change marines so that marines are more equal to the other races backbone units, namely zerglings and zealots. As things have panned out, Blizzard thought otherwise, and instead they went about it differently, and ever since that any macro game v. T for Z/P meant progressively teching to higher tier units to fight marines.
All these talk about terran not needing gas, killing SCVs meaning little, terran maintaining economy with mules, or having to keep up the upgrades, or terran deploying SCVs to attack, etc. all go back to marines and their ridiculous DPS. (plus the other races backbone units being melee, which only got worse for marines having "instant" attack animation - but DB loved watching it!)
What is my point? My point is that this aspect of the game WILL NOT CHANGE. Blizzard already missed the chance to fix it, and it is impossible at this stage of the game to change anything about marines. Likewise, it is not going to help or be productive to talk about Terran's economy this or economy that which all flow from marines. Might as well talk about band-aid solutions that has actual chance of happening, such as balancing widow mines.
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On August 10 2013 16:57 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 16:47 NarutO wrote:On August 10 2013 16:27 Doublemint wrote:
How many gasses are taken for how long. And yes it could be Mine/Helliondrop and behind an expansion or simply an expansion on the high ground. The fact that you have the P guessing and in the dark is pretty good I would think. Dont you understand that it does not matter? The MSC expand and detection afterwards does hold any aggression Terran can bring. Furthermore you would be able to scout with the msc core before the aggression actually hits. A proper reaction to marine/hellion will shut it down so hard that you would not believe it in the first place. "We cant have it both ways" We are not walling because we want to hide shit, we are walling to put something between us and aggression. I don't know - I have two terrans who are way better than me telling me all the cons they face.Their bias and frustration paired with experience showing through. I'll just take your word for it, however, I am not quite satisfied that TvP is as terrible as some make it out to be - especially on the highest level.
The only real chance to "hide something" is a large four player map and the Protoss having bad luck at scouting the right starting position. Other than that NarutO is right.
Now if the Reaper still had the anti-building explosives Terrans might be able to do something to put pressure on the development of Protoss, but since that isnt the case ... and the Reaper in its old form only had a tiny window to do stuff anyways.
On August 10 2013 16:58 usethis2 wrote:
Jesus, you guys are repeating again and again for 3 years. About everything you talk about Terran's economy and its anomaly have existed since the beginning of WOL. At the time I thought the best way to fix it was to change marines so that marines are more equal to the other races backbone units, namely zerglings and zealots. As things have panned out, Blizzard thought otherwise, and instead they went about it differently, and ever since that any macro game v. T for Z/P meant progressively teching to higher tier units to fight marines.
All these talk about terran not needing gas, killing SCVs meaning little, terran maintaining economy with mules, or having to keep up the upgrades, or terran deploying SCVs to attack, etc. all go back to marines and their ridiculous DPS. (plus the other races backbone units being melee, which only got worse for marines having "instant" attack animation - but DB loved watching it!)
What is my point? My point is that this aspect of the game WILL NOT CHANGE. Blizzard already missed the chance to fix it, and it is impossible at this stage of the game to change anything about marines. Likewise, it is not going to help or be productive to talk about Terran's economy this or economy that which all flow from marines. Might as well talk about band-aid solutions that has actual chance of happening, such as balancing widow mines.
So? If we keep mentioning problems and our dissatisfaction even Blizzard might notice ... eventually. It is a small chance, but as my chemistry teacher used to say "there is no 100%" [in a chemical reaction] and equally the chance for them "doing the right thing" isnt 0%.
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On August 10 2013 05:34 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:48 Sokrates wrote:
I think there is no way around nerfs for toss/terran or a buff for zerg so zerg can catch up.
We see zergs falling left and right in the korean scene, zerg cannot effort to make any mistakes at the highest level of play where as terran or toss have a little room for error. Zerg has no room for errors at all, that is why they fall apart.
Bio/mine/medivacs are too strong and zerg is basically playing WOL with mutas that are faster.+
We can see the winrates falling below 40% in any zvsp and zvst and i dont think this will change anytime soon, it wont change at all. In the next 2-3months blizzard will react accordingly, it is not a question IF there is a buff for zerg nerf for other races but HOW this buff is done at all. funny observation: 1) terrans say zvt was fine muta ling bling into hive vs marine tank in wol 2) long term win rates and overall results (gomtvtvtvt era) suggested terran was slightly favored in that scenario, mutas were completely replaced by infestor based play 3) even terrans say widow mines are WAY superior to tanks, like, it's not even close. 4) zerg still has muta ling bling and cant even transition into hive terrans now say muta ling bling vs biomine is balanced. makes perfect sense, right?
I was puzzled right from the start of HOTS. Early game Zerg was unchanged, but early Terran and Protoss got hugely useful buffs (medivac speed, hellbats, mothership core). Unless Vipers and Swarm Hosts turned out to be amazing (they didn't), then the early game advantage handed to T/P would always result in a struggling Zerg. I just assumed Blizzard thought Zerg was overpowered in Wings, and this how they balanced.
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On August 10 2013 17:41 Dragar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 05:34 willstertben wrote:On August 10 2013 01:48 Sokrates wrote:
I think there is no way around nerfs for toss/terran or a buff for zerg so zerg can catch up.
We see zergs falling left and right in the korean scene, zerg cannot effort to make any mistakes at the highest level of play where as terran or toss have a little room for error. Zerg has no room for errors at all, that is why they fall apart.
Bio/mine/medivacs are too strong and zerg is basically playing WOL with mutas that are faster.+
We can see the winrates falling below 40% in any zvsp and zvst and i dont think this will change anytime soon, it wont change at all. In the next 2-3months blizzard will react accordingly, it is not a question IF there is a buff for zerg nerf for other races but HOW this buff is done at all. funny observation: 1) terrans say zvt was fine muta ling bling into hive vs marine tank in wol 2) long term win rates and overall results (gomtvtvtvt era) suggested terran was slightly favored in that scenario, mutas were completely replaced by infestor based play 3) even terrans say widow mines are WAY superior to tanks, like, it's not even close. 4) zerg still has muta ling bling and cant even transition into hive terrans now say muta ling bling vs biomine is balanced. makes perfect sense, right? I was puzzled right from the start of HOTS. Early game Zerg was unchanged, but early Terran and Protoss got hugely useful buffs (medivac speed, hellbats, mothership core). Unless Vipers and Swarm Hosts turned out to be amazing (they didn't), then the early game advantage handed to T/P would always result in a struggling Zerg. I just assumed Blizzard thought Zerg was overpowered in Wings, and this how they balanced.
But zerg has hydralisk with movement speed, problem solved
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On August 10 2013 18:14 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 17:41 Dragar wrote:On August 10 2013 05:34 willstertben wrote:On August 10 2013 01:48 Sokrates wrote:
I think there is no way around nerfs for toss/terran or a buff for zerg so zerg can catch up.
We see zergs falling left and right in the korean scene, zerg cannot effort to make any mistakes at the highest level of play where as terran or toss have a little room for error. Zerg has no room for errors at all, that is why they fall apart.
Bio/mine/medivacs are too strong and zerg is basically playing WOL with mutas that are faster.+
We can see the winrates falling below 40% in any zvsp and zvst and i dont think this will change anytime soon, it wont change at all. In the next 2-3months blizzard will react accordingly, it is not a question IF there is a buff for zerg nerf for other races but HOW this buff is done at all. funny observation: 1) terrans say zvt was fine muta ling bling into hive vs marine tank in wol 2) long term win rates and overall results (gomtvtvtvt era) suggested terran was slightly favored in that scenario, mutas were completely replaced by infestor based play 3) even terrans say widow mines are WAY superior to tanks, like, it's not even close. 4) zerg still has muta ling bling and cant even transition into hive terrans now say muta ling bling vs biomine is balanced. makes perfect sense, right? I was puzzled right from the start of HOTS. Early game Zerg was unchanged, but early Terran and Protoss got hugely useful buffs (medivac speed, hellbats, mothership core). Unless Vipers and Swarm Hosts turned out to be amazing (they didn't), then the early game advantage handed to T/P would always result in a struggling Zerg. I just assumed Blizzard thought Zerg was overpowered in Wings, and this how they balanced. But zerg has hydralisk with movement speed, problem solved
Surprise, you're being facetious again. + Show Spoiler [explanation for Foxxan] +Facetious=df Inappropriately dealing with a serious issue in a flippant/humour inducing manner.
Zerg kept the queen buff, and also got hatch tech burrow and no-evo spores. T got nothing new against Z, medivac speed and hellbats come into play way later than the early game. I think you want to still claim that reapers are imba like you did at the start of HotS instead of learning how to deal with them.
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On August 10 2013 18:19 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 18:14 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 17:41 Dragar wrote:On August 10 2013 05:34 willstertben wrote:On August 10 2013 01:48 Sokrates wrote:
I think there is no way around nerfs for toss/terran or a buff for zerg so zerg can catch up.
We see zergs falling left and right in the korean scene, zerg cannot effort to make any mistakes at the highest level of play where as terran or toss have a little room for error. Zerg has no room for errors at all, that is why they fall apart.
Bio/mine/medivacs are too strong and zerg is basically playing WOL with mutas that are faster.+
We can see the winrates falling below 40% in any zvsp and zvst and i dont think this will change anytime soon, it wont change at all. In the next 2-3months blizzard will react accordingly, it is not a question IF there is a buff for zerg nerf for other races but HOW this buff is done at all. funny observation: 1) terrans say zvt was fine muta ling bling into hive vs marine tank in wol 2) long term win rates and overall results (gomtvtvtvt era) suggested terran was slightly favored in that scenario, mutas were completely replaced by infestor based play 3) even terrans say widow mines are WAY superior to tanks, like, it's not even close. 4) zerg still has muta ling bling and cant even transition into hive terrans now say muta ling bling vs biomine is balanced. makes perfect sense, right? I was puzzled right from the start of HOTS. Early game Zerg was unchanged, but early Terran and Protoss got hugely useful buffs (medivac speed, hellbats, mothership core). Unless Vipers and Swarm Hosts turned out to be amazing (they didn't), then the early game advantage handed to T/P would always result in a struggling Zerg. I just assumed Blizzard thought Zerg was overpowered in Wings, and this how they balanced. But zerg has hydralisk with movement speed, problem solved Surprise, you're being facetious again. + Show Spoiler [explanation for Foxxan] +Facetious=df Inappropriately dealing with a serious issue in a flippant/humour inducing manner. Zerg kept the queen buff, and also got hatch tech burrow and no-evo spores. T got nothing new against Z, medivac speed and hellbats come into play way later than the early game. I think you want to still claim that reapers are imba like you did at the start of HotS instead of learning how to deal with them.
Yes, if we talk about the first 3 minutes of the game terran really got nothing new. By the way when are people going to let go of the queen buff? It´s not like terrans are still scared to attack Z cause the queen totally destroys them. We can compare the medivac buff and the queen buff and see witch has bigger role in HOTS not WOL. Spores without evos is a must considering that T has cheaper cloack banshee, WM and toss again cheaper DT, oracle(not a big thing v Z). It tells something that Terrans still go back to the queen buff when talking about current TvZ balance.
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On August 10 2013 18:19 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 18:14 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 17:41 Dragar wrote:On August 10 2013 05:34 willstertben wrote:On August 10 2013 01:48 Sokrates wrote:
I think there is no way around nerfs for toss/terran or a buff for zerg so zerg can catch up.
We see zergs falling left and right in the korean scene, zerg cannot effort to make any mistakes at the highest level of play where as terran or toss have a little room for error. Zerg has no room for errors at all, that is why they fall apart.
Bio/mine/medivacs are too strong and zerg is basically playing WOL with mutas that are faster.+
We can see the winrates falling below 40% in any zvsp and zvst and i dont think this will change anytime soon, it wont change at all. In the next 2-3months blizzard will react accordingly, it is not a question IF there is a buff for zerg nerf for other races but HOW this buff is done at all. funny observation: 1) terrans say zvt was fine muta ling bling into hive vs marine tank in wol 2) long term win rates and overall results (gomtvtvtvt era) suggested terran was slightly favored in that scenario, mutas were completely replaced by infestor based play 3) even terrans say widow mines are WAY superior to tanks, like, it's not even close. 4) zerg still has muta ling bling and cant even transition into hive terrans now say muta ling bling vs biomine is balanced. makes perfect sense, right? I was puzzled right from the start of HOTS. Early game Zerg was unchanged, but early Terran and Protoss got hugely useful buffs (medivac speed, hellbats, mothership core). Unless Vipers and Swarm Hosts turned out to be amazing (they didn't), then the early game advantage handed to T/P would always result in a struggling Zerg. I just assumed Blizzard thought Zerg was overpowered in Wings, and this how they balanced. But zerg has hydralisk with movement speed, problem solved Surprise, you're being facetious again. + Show Spoiler [explanation for Foxxan] +Facetious=df Inappropriately dealing with a serious issue in a flippant/humour inducing manner. Zerg kept the queen buff, and also got hatch tech burrow and no-evo spores. T got nothing new against Z, medivac speed and hellbats come into play way later than the early game. I think you want to still claim that reapers are imba like you did at the start of HotS instead of learning how to deal with them.
Zerg was so strong because broodlord/infester was so strong, it was very hard to counter if they reached a certain point.
So the queenbuff helped out a lot to get there. The evobuff is just something that was needed given the much cheaper dts, the early widowmines + cheaperbanshee + hellbatdrop. It is not an advantage compared to WOL it was just "evened" out given the option terran and toss have been given in the harras department.
Right now i dont feel zerg has any advantage in any point of the game against terran. Against protoss i feel the same except for the mass static defense + swarmhost + viper stuff on some maps.
Terran has the same economy than zerg but they have the more cost effective units. Terran has much more options, can make more mistakes and their standard composition counters everything zerg has. The only "hard time" they might have is when zerg can make a bunch of ultras.
Thats why there will be another nerf for terran or a buff for zerg because i feel zerg is also lacking in zvsp.
But then again what are you going to buff to even out both MUs and not completely screwing the game?
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On August 11 2013 00:26 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 18:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 10 2013 18:14 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 17:41 Dragar wrote:On August 10 2013 05:34 willstertben wrote:On August 10 2013 01:48 Sokrates wrote:
I think there is no way around nerfs for toss/terran or a buff for zerg so zerg can catch up.
We see zergs falling left and right in the korean scene, zerg cannot effort to make any mistakes at the highest level of play where as terran or toss have a little room for error. Zerg has no room for errors at all, that is why they fall apart.
Bio/mine/medivacs are too strong and zerg is basically playing WOL with mutas that are faster.+
We can see the winrates falling below 40% in any zvsp and zvst and i dont think this will change anytime soon, it wont change at all. In the next 2-3months blizzard will react accordingly, it is not a question IF there is a buff for zerg nerf for other races but HOW this buff is done at all. funny observation: 1) terrans say zvt was fine muta ling bling into hive vs marine tank in wol 2) long term win rates and overall results (gomtvtvtvt era) suggested terran was slightly favored in that scenario, mutas were completely replaced by infestor based play 3) even terrans say widow mines are WAY superior to tanks, like, it's not even close. 4) zerg still has muta ling bling and cant even transition into hive terrans now say muta ling bling vs biomine is balanced. makes perfect sense, right? I was puzzled right from the start of HOTS. Early game Zerg was unchanged, but early Terran and Protoss got hugely useful buffs (medivac speed, hellbats, mothership core). Unless Vipers and Swarm Hosts turned out to be amazing (they didn't), then the early game advantage handed to T/P would always result in a struggling Zerg. I just assumed Blizzard thought Zerg was overpowered in Wings, and this how they balanced. But zerg has hydralisk with movement speed, problem solved Surprise, you're being facetious again. + Show Spoiler [explanation for Foxxan] +Facetious=df Inappropriately dealing with a serious issue in a flippant/humour inducing manner. Zerg kept the queen buff, and also got hatch tech burrow and no-evo spores. T got nothing new against Z, medivac speed and hellbats come into play way later than the early game. I think you want to still claim that reapers are imba like you did at the start of HotS instead of learning how to deal with them. Zerg was so strong because broodlord/infester was so strong, it was very hard to counter if they reached a certain point. So the queenbuff helped out a lot to get there. The evobuff is just something that was needed given the much cheaper dts, the early widowmines + cheaperbanshee + hellbatdrop. It is not an advantage compared to WOL it was just "evened" out given the option terran and toss have been given in the harras department. Right now i dont feel zerg has any advantage in any point of the game against terran. Against protoss i feel the same except for the mass static defense + swarmhost + viper stuff on some maps. Terran has the same economy than zerg but they have the more cost effective units. Terran has much more options, can make more mistakes and their standard composition counters everything zerg has. The only "hard time" they might have is when zerg can make a bunch of ultras. Thats why there will be another nerf for terran or a buff for zerg because i feel zerg is also lacking in zvsp. But then again what are you going to buff to even out both MUs and not completely screwing the game?
who says they're gonna change anything?
it's been a year without changes.
the ladder system designed to give everyone a 50% win rate says everyone has a 50% win rate and therefore blizzard concludes the game is perfectly balanced.
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That system doesnt work for top50 GMs let alone the best of the best...
I always predicted patches right since WOL came out, you can be sure i m right here too.
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how did you manage to do that when you never played a single game without 6 pooling? : )
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I have really good gamesense.
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EPT
