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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:07 Big J wrote: even if zerg was only able to win through allins, as long as they can do it consistently there is nothing wrong with it balancewise. Thats totally right. I should have mentioned that it makes the match-up bad design-wise but not balance-wise. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:07 Big J wrote: even if zerg was only able to win through allins, as long as they can do it consistently there is nothing wrong with it balancewise. Well, that's the fun part. You need to poke around to keep the winrates intact and to get the games more varied / exciting. Balancewise roach-ling-bane and mutal-ling-bling is in a perfect spot vs bio-mine, the armies are quite well matched and I don't think that nerfing / buffing something along these lines would be good. On the other hand maybe the hive transition could be made faster / easier / requiring less resources so we could see more proper late game from the Zerg. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:09 RaFox17 wrote: Thats totally right. I should have mentioned that it makes the match-up bad design-wise but not balance-wise. I see almost pure macrogames in every single tournament, so stop acting like zergs do 70% allins. They DO some allins, because you know, they are lucky that they CAN. Meanwhile terrans can't really allin, unless you call the 11 11 allin? | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:01 Big J wrote: well, and as far as I remember CatZ did not think there was a problem. If there is any imbalance, it is probably tiny or even metagame dependend and could get figured out. I think a lot of zergs are frustrated of how bad zergs where doing at the OSL against terran. And I can fully understand that. But I think maps played big time into that. In review, OSL had a terribly terribly terran favored mappool and results showed that. We'll see how next GSL goes, with terrible maps like Star Station, Anaconda, Newkirk and GG beach removed. edit: And I think zergs are misreading the current situation the same way like last year. Zergs are not really doing terribly against terran overall. They are getting massacred by Protoss right now. (which where getting massacred by Terran mostly in the OSL due to imbalanced maps, see the point above!) I think zerg players should switch their focus with their whine  | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:10 scypio wrote: Well, that's the fun part. You need to poke around to keep the winrates intact and to get the games more varied / exciting. Balancewise roach-ling-bane and mutal-ling-bling is in a perfect spot vs bio-mine, the armies are quite well matched and I don't think that nerfing / buffing something along these lines would be good. On the other hand maybe the hive transition could be made faster / easier / requiring less resources so we could see more proper late game from the Zerg. Is it in a perfect spot balance wise? One thing I noticed recently is that zergs dont really commit to beating the terran army, they wait until the army overextends and tries to punish. And if terran doesnt do that, they rarely seem to lose fights. Just an observation from the soulkey supernova games. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:00 Foxxan wrote: No! you are doing it wrong, coming here and whine again Its HOW you win the games I repeat HOW you as a player playing starcraft WINS the GAME one more time HOW you as a starcraft 2 player with blood in your body wins a GAME!!! You get it? Stop your nonsence, you ARE THE WHINER How about you learn to read? It is both. In reality the more factors are considered, the stronger are the statistics. Calm down. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
Either zerg punishes terran greed in the early game or the game goes on and zerg tries to hold on until terran makes a mistake. If T doesnt make that mistake that the Z manages to catch, then T ends up winning even if the Z doesnt make a mistake. Whether or not this is true, this is how it feels. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:27 TheRabidDeer wrote: This is how ZvT feels at the moment: Either zerg punishes terran greed in the early game or the game goes on and zerg tries to hold on until terran makes a mistake. If T doesnt make that mistake that the Z manages to catch, then T ends up winning even if the Z doesnt make a mistake. Whether or not this is true, this is how it feels. If this is the case, then terrans would dominate ladder, then terrans would dominate tournaments. Both are not the case. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:29 Snowbear wrote: If this is the case, then terrans would dominate ladder, then terrans would dominate tournaments. Both are not the case. Unfortunately, no. For one thing, zergs do punish early game greed and second terrans do make mistakes. Also, tournaments are more complicated than that and ladder is a completely different story altogether. Also Whether or not this is true, this is how it feels. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:13 TeeTS wrote: I think a lot of zergs are frustrated of how bad zergs where doing at the OSL against terran. And I can fully understand that. But I think maps played big time into that. In review, OSL had a terribly terribly terran favored mappool and results showed that. We'll see how next GSL goes, with terrible maps like Star Station, Anaconda, Newkirk and GG beach removed. edit: And I think zergs are misreading the current situation the same way like last year. Zergs are not really doing terribly against terran overall. They are getting massacred by Protoss right now. (which where getting massacred by Terran mostly in the OSL due to imbalanced maps, see the point above!) I think zerg players should switch their focus with their whine I don't think that PvZ is in a bad spot right now. Not even designwise, as Protoss seem to have gotten quite a grip on how to circumvent (force the zerg into certain units, usually roaches and hydras) or engage swarm host styles (very active zoning with Colossus/Templar based armies, like in First vs Symbol, or some of sOs' games). And balancewise, I believe PvZ allows for so many unit transitions for both races currently, that (unless timing attacks become too limiting) it's very straight forward how you can adapt to an opponent during a game and most losses will stem from player mistakes, rather than from something being too powerful in general. Though on some maps the one or other playstyle might be too strong, but that's not really racial balance. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:31 TheRabidDeer wrote: Unfortunately, no. For one thing, zergs do punish early game greed and second terrans do make mistakes. Also, tournaments are more complicated than that and ladder is a completely different story altogether. Also Whether or not this is true, this is how it feels. You really think terrans haven't figured out how to hold zerg allins? And I can also say "terrans only win when the zergs make a mistake". | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
Due to Terran's base booster and it's AoE/burst damage nature, Terran can come back from behind AT ANY TIME on a three base and up scenario, as long as his production is unmoslested, he can recover from 0 minerals and start rebuilding. Terran's base boost is limited to spell detection and unit summoning, unlike the super production of Spawn larvae and production and research boost of Chronoboost. Hence MULES have mining because assuming unlimited mana, usually at 3+ bases, Protoss can already have 50% more probes by the time a Terran rebuilds his SCVs in this magical scenario where both players wipe out each other's workers and army at the same time. A Zerg is even more insane, assuming tr player has been faithfully spawning larvae the entire battle, he could literally replace all 60 workers lost in a single cycle of production across his 3x hatcheries. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:34 Snowbear wrote: You really think terrans haven't figured out how to hold zerg allins? And I can also say "terrans only win when the zergs make a mistake". Considering how many terrans are still losing to it in tournaments, no. I dont think they have. And I cant blame them, it can be hard to see. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:08 Snowbear wrote: Yes! I show you a perfect proof that these zergs are whining without a reason. And then you come with "it's how you win the games"? Seriously??? What if those terran wins are because of allins? Your argument works in both ways mate . You want your WOL zerg domination back and NO, you are NOT going to get it. Get over it ASAP because Blizzard will NEVER ever make the same mistake. This is HOTS now. You need to micro now. Those easy no micro infestor times are gone and will never come back. You are required to put the same effort into the game as the terran. You are the one true whiner, can u stop put things in our mouth? I want wol zerg domination back? HELL FUCKING NO! I need to micro now against the widow mine especiaclly? I LOVE IT! The easy no skill pure none-art unit infestor times are gone? HELL YEAH seriously you are so annoying It works both ways? NO SHIT einstein You trule believe just because the stastistic is balances makes it a good and balanced game? get over yourself | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:35 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: The reality is due to Terran's base booster and it's AoE/burst damage nature, Terran can come back from behind AT ANY TIME on a three base and up scenario. Terran's base boost is limited to spell detection and unit summoning, unlike the super production of Spawn larvae and production and research boost of Chronoboost. Hence MULES have mining because assuming unlimited mana, usually at 3+ bases, Protoss can already have 50% more probes by the time a Terran rebuilds his SCVs in this magical scenario where both players wipe out each other's workers and army at the same time. A Zerg is even more insane, assuming tr player has been faithfully spawning larvae the entire battle, he could literally replace all 60 workers lost in a single cycle of production across his 3x hatcheries. well, if we assume unlimited mana Terran has unlimited income with mules. Thankfully the assumption is wrong and Protoss chronoboosting probes as much as he can will only produce probes ~22% faster than a Terran (due to energy regeneration).  Chrono Boost MathTo Zerg: an injection cyle takes 40seconds and will spawn 4+2.66666 larva. So in a single cycle, a 3hatch zerg can reproduce 20drones (assuming it is reproduction and he does not need to spend larva on overlords). 40less than he "could literally replace" as you say. But yes, 12.94more than a Terran with 3CCs in the same time. Luckily 12 is exactly the number of workers 3mules make up to begin with. | ||
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newbee123
Korea (South)4 Posts
HOTS Terran dominance : 59.5% win rates And we all know something terrible happened to infester. DK needs to say something about this. Really. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
But in HOTS, T is become the swarm, T produce a lot of T1-T2 units and swarm their opponent. But unlike Zerg units, terran units are super cost effective, and nearly only cost mineral. T army are more mobile than Z army too, and so effective in small group. Mines aslo make terran able to go super greedy start. Zerg doesn't outmacro their opponent anymore, and drop limit Zerg to take too many expansions. So whereas Z units have been designed to be played on a game where Zerg has an economic lead, in hots where Z usually have the same economy than Terran, army trade on direct battle field or when T drop are nearly always in T favor. Moreover, Zerg are very depend on gaz for baneling, mutas, infestor, ultra, while Terran army only need gaz for medivac (that nearly nerver die), and upgrades. So now in hots, Zerg is supposed to be super effective vs T army althought having most of units designed to uncosteffective. So Zerg try to favour his most cost effective units : Ultra/queen, roach hydra in the idea to go infestor/SH. But each time you see Zerg playing like that the situation is always the same : Zerg army is slower than Terran, so Terran drop to force Zerg to stay at his base. In the meantime, Terran take a lot of expansions, and go ahead on eco while he lower his worker supply to get more army supply thx to mules. And Zerg can't deny expansions without taking his whole army thx to PF, mines, bunker repair. So when Zerg decide to attack beacause he has no choice anymore if he doesn't want to lose. Terran just make 1 or 2 drop which kills every zerg ecos and buildings. Then he just defend with the rest of his army, and as he has strong defence, the avantage of the position, he crush zerg army. Zerg army are often powerfull and kills a lot of the terran army, but Terran can easily reprod his nearly only costing mineral army, while Zerg can't reprod his high tier army while his eco has been hurt by the drop during the attack. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On August 09 2013 01:13 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg is designed to be the swarm : to swarm their opponent under a lot of units. So their units are less strong than the other race, but they have the mecanism to produce a lot of eco and units. But in HOTS, T is become the swarm, T produce a lot of T1-T2 units and swarm their opponent. But unlike Zerg units, terran units are super cost effective, and nearly only cost mineral. T army are more mobile than Z army too, and so effective in small group. Mines aslo make terran able to go super greedy start. Zerg doesn't outmacro their opponent anymore, and drop limit Zerg to take too many expansions. So whereas Z units have been designed to be played on a game where Zerg has an economic lead, in hots where Z usually have the same economy than Terran, army trade on direct battle field or when T drop are nearly always in T favor. Moreover, Zerg are very depend on gaz for baneling, mutas, infestor, ultra, while Terran army only need gaz for medivac (that nearly nerver die), and upgrades. So now in hots, Zerg is supposed to be super effective vs T army althought having most of units designed to uncosteffective. So Zerg try to favour his most cost effective units : Ultra/queen, roach hydra in the idea to go infestor/SH. But each time you see Zerg playing like that the situation is always the same : Zerg army is slower than Terran, so Terran drop to force Zerg to stay at his base. In the meantime, Terran take a lot of expansions, and go ahead on eco while he lower his worker supply to get more army supply thx to mules. And Zerg can't deny expansions without taking his whole army thx to PF, mines, bunker repair. So when Zerg decide to attack beacause he has no choice anymore if he doesn't want to lose. Terran just make 1 or 2 drop which kills every zerg ecos and buildings. Then he just defend with the rest of his army, and as he has strong defence, the avantage of the position, he crush zerg army. Zerg army are often powerfull and kills a lot of the terran army, but Terran can easily reprod his nearly only costing mineral army, while Zerg can't reprod his high tier army while his eco has been hurt by the drop during the attack. Very little of this is grounded in reality. Muta/ling/bane is very "swarmy", and with it Zerg army can be very mobile if needed. PF or no, it's still possible to deny Terran expos. And once ultras and infestors are out, let's see how that Terran relaxing on only mineral units works out for them. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:00 Foxxan wrote: No! you are doing it wrong, coming here and whine again Its HOW you win the games I repeat HOW you as a player playing starcraft WINS the GAME one more time HOW you as a starcraft 2 player with blood in your body wins a GAME!!! You get it? Stop your nonsence, you ARE THE WHINER Statistics usually doesn't mean a lot and should be take into account very carefuly because you actually have to look on the game itself, and who is actually playing because you have a different balance through all level pro gamer, but balance in ladder actually means nothing at all. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:59 Big J wrote: Don't take that as a balance comment, but your math is so wrong it just hurts anybody who has actually ever checked the numbers... well, if we assume unlimited mana Terran has unlimited income with mules. Thankfully the assumption is wrong and Protoss chronoboosting probes as much as he can will only produce probes ~22% faster than a Terran (due to energy regeneration). Chrono Boost MathTo Zerg: an injection cyle takes 40seconds and will spawn 4+2.66666 larva. So in a single cycle, a 3hatch zerg can reproduce 20drones (assuming it is reproduction and he does not need to spend larva on overlords). 40less than he "could literally replace" as you say. But yes, 12.94more than a Terran with 3CCs in the same time. Luckily 12 is exactly the number of workers 3mules make up to begin with. Yes, thankfully, on three bases, a Terran has 3 SCVs out per cycle where a Protoss would have 4 mathematically speaking (rounded up) and a Zerg would have all 60 up assuming he has been STOCKPILING larvae, since the start of the big fight, producing 12 larvae every passing 40s. In 2 minutes of engagement, having 36 larvae to immediately replace his lost workers. Math: 60 sec x 2 min = 120sec 120s / 40s = 3 casts 3 casts x 3 bases x 4 larvae= 36 larvae | ||
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