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On August 08 2013 03:49 NarutO wrote:
While I believe there are lots of issues in Terran vs Protoss. I wouldn't name AcerMMA vs NaNiWa to point out those. MMA really didn't play well. In the end, there are some keypoints in this game that illustrates Protoss abilities that give Terran a hard time but overall, MMA played a terrible game.
Being up four bases to three, having better upgrades, and a 40 supply lead is truly a terribly played game.
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On August 08 2013 03:47 JSK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 03:44 plogamer wrote:On August 08 2013 03:41 larse wrote:
Naniwa's entire army was hit by EMP by clocked ghost. No Storm left, No shield left.
MMA was 50 supply ahead, still lose to that...
And you say TvP is balanced? Nah, those precious high templars did not get emp'ed. /edit But yeah, fuck TvP childish, biased, anecdotal. not worthy of TL
Get off your high horse. I merely conveyed my personal frustration with the matchup, and not making a definitive statement on balance. The main purpose of my response was to let larse know that the HTs did not get emp'd fully.
You want to talk about "worthy"? Maybe you can provide a more constructive response to the person who actually was mistaken about a factual matter.
On August 08 2013 03:52 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 03:51 plogamer wrote:On August 08 2013 03:49 NarutO wrote:
While I believe there are lots of issues in Terran vs Protoss. I wouldn't name AcerMMA vs NaNiWa to point out those. MMA really didn't play well. In the end, there are some keypoints in this game that illustrates Protoss abilities that give Terran a hard time but overall, MMA played a terrible game. MMA played well enough to acrue a 40 supply lead with better upgrades. His biggest mistake was that emps didn't land on templars, otherwise his superior army with the better concave should have fared better. His fights (the arc / concave in the first fight) were terrible, really just overall a sloppy game. There really are better examples to show where the problems are.
I'll rewatch the game later. Thanks for letting me know, the concave looked good to me compared to naniwa's concave.
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On August 08 2013 04:04 LittleRedBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 03:49 NarutO wrote:
While I believe there are lots of issues in Terran vs Protoss. I wouldn't name AcerMMA vs NaNiWa to point out those. MMA really didn't play well. In the end, there are some keypoints in this game that illustrates Protoss abilities that give Terran a hard time but overall, MMA played a terrible game. Being up four bases to three, having better upgrades, and a 40 supply lead is truly a terribly played game.
Losing the fights with having that background on the other hand is. Stop acting like I am Protoss and I would believe Protoss<Terran, but the truth is, this game was horribly played after a very big advantage early on (due to NaNiwas mistakes)
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On August 08 2013 04:02 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 04:01 convention wrote:On August 08 2013 03:51 plogamer wrote:On August 08 2013 03:49 NarutO wrote:
While I believe there are lots of issues in Terran vs Protoss. I wouldn't name AcerMMA vs NaNiWa to point out those. MMA really didn't play well. In the end, there are some keypoints in this game that illustrates Protoss abilities that give Terran a hard time but overall, MMA played a terrible game. MMA played well enough to acrue a 40 supply lead with better upgrades. His biggest mistake was that emps didn't land on templars, otherwise his superior army with the better concave should have fared better. MMA made quite a few mistakes that lost his lead: He had no vikings for Naniwa's 4 collosi. He didn't EMP the HT. He had a terrible concave. He didn't kite any of his units back against zealots or even just move out of storm. If a 40-supply-up protoss army walks up a choke into a huge concave with vikings sitting on a ledge sniping collosi, then I don't care if he stormed the terran army and feedback'd every single ghost, he will get crushed. PvT is so positional based in those big fights. If you mess the concave up and don't micro, you deserve to lose a 40 supply lead. Happens both ways. Agree with lots of parts, disagree with: If you mess up the concave and don't micro, you deserve to lose a 40 supply lead. Happens both ways. Protoss with +40 supply won't lose the fight. At least I've never seen that happen.
I guess I stated it too broadly, I agree that they won't win the fight. But I've seen a 40 supply up protoss lose to mass drops all over the place picking off buildings and such to get back into the game. Protoss's way back into the game is that they can win a huge fight if behind in supply, terran's way back into the game is by mass dropping.
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On August 08 2013 04:05 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 03:47 JSK wrote:On August 08 2013 03:44 plogamer wrote:On August 08 2013 03:41 larse wrote:
Naniwa's entire army was hit by EMP by clocked ghost. No Storm left, No shield left.
MMA was 50 supply ahead, still lose to that...
And you say TvP is balanced? Nah, those precious high templars did not get emp'ed. /edit But yeah, fuck TvP childish, biased, anecdotal. not worthy of TL Get off your high horse. I merely conveyed my personal frustration with the matchup, and not making a definitive statement on balance. The main purpose of my response was to let larse know that the HTs did not get emp'd fully. You want to talk about "worthy"? Maybe you can provide a more constructive response to the person who actually was mistaken about a factual matter. Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 03:52 NarutO wrote:On August 08 2013 03:51 plogamer wrote:On August 08 2013 03:49 NarutO wrote:
While I believe there are lots of issues in Terran vs Protoss. I wouldn't name AcerMMA vs NaNiWa to point out those. MMA really didn't play well. In the end, there are some keypoints in this game that illustrates Protoss abilities that give Terran a hard time but overall, MMA played a terrible game. MMA played well enough to acrue a 40 supply lead with better upgrades. His biggest mistake was that emps didn't land on templars, otherwise his superior army with the better concave should have fared better. His fights (the arc / concave in the first fight) were terrible, really just overall a sloppy game. There really are better examples to show where the problems are. I'll rewatch the game later. Thanks for letting me know, the concave looked good to me compared to naniwa's concave.
I think it could be that we disagree. I am saying a concave for Terran isn't worth setting up (besides a few occasions) but against chargelot / storm and colossi, what you want to have is actually the ball and good snipes/emp. You need your army together as a Terran army scales a ton. Lots of range units firing at once, Zealots won't close the gap but if they can charge a big concave against only a handful bio everywhere, the Zealots will deal damage. Hopefully I made clear what I meant 
At least thats personal opinion on that matter
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On August 08 2013 04:02 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 04:01 convention wrote:On August 08 2013 03:51 plogamer wrote:On August 08 2013 03:49 NarutO wrote:
While I believe there are lots of issues in Terran vs Protoss. I wouldn't name AcerMMA vs NaNiWa to point out those. MMA really didn't play well. In the end, there are some keypoints in this game that illustrates Protoss abilities that give Terran a hard time but overall, MMA played a terrible game. MMA played well enough to acrue a 40 supply lead with better upgrades. His biggest mistake was that emps didn't land on templars, otherwise his superior army with the better concave should have fared better. MMA made quite a few mistakes that lost his lead: He had no vikings for Naniwa's 4 collosi. He didn't EMP the HT. He had a terrible concave. He didn't kite any of his units back against zealots or even just move out of storm. If a 40-supply-up protoss army walks up a choke into a huge concave with vikings sitting on a ledge sniping collosi, then I don't care if he stormed the terran army and feedback'd every single ghost, he will get crushed. PvT is so positional based in those big fights. If you mess the concave up and don't micro, you deserve to lose a 40 supply lead. Happens both ways. Agree with lots of parts, disagree with: If you mess up the concave and don't micro, you deserve to lose a 40 supply lead. Happens both ways. Protoss with +40 supply won't lose the fight. At least I've never seen that happen.
eh if you just a-moved into a concave with no micro, i'd definitely say the 40 supply lead would be lost. Thing is, it's rare for toss to be up a lot in supply in situations in which the game is not already over (as in, after a big fight/ allin).
After watching a bunch of games though, i think the MS core may be sliiiightly too safe. Not so much "imba" as "boring". It feels like PvT is growing similar to old PvZ. Two people turtling until the big endgame fight happens. Maybe they need to give nex cannon a higher energy cost or something.
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On August 08 2013 04:09 stille_nacht wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 04:02 NarutO wrote:On August 08 2013 04:01 convention wrote:On August 08 2013 03:51 plogamer wrote:On August 08 2013 03:49 NarutO wrote:
While I believe there are lots of issues in Terran vs Protoss. I wouldn't name AcerMMA vs NaNiWa to point out those. MMA really didn't play well. In the end, there are some keypoints in this game that illustrates Protoss abilities that give Terran a hard time but overall, MMA played a terrible game. MMA played well enough to acrue a 40 supply lead with better upgrades. His biggest mistake was that emps didn't land on templars, otherwise his superior army with the better concave should have fared better. MMA made quite a few mistakes that lost his lead: He had no vikings for Naniwa's 4 collosi. He didn't EMP the HT. He had a terrible concave. He didn't kite any of his units back against zealots or even just move out of storm. If a 40-supply-up protoss army walks up a choke into a huge concave with vikings sitting on a ledge sniping collosi, then I don't care if he stormed the terran army and feedback'd every single ghost, he will get crushed. PvT is so positional based in those big fights. If you mess the concave up and don't micro, you deserve to lose a 40 supply lead. Happens both ways. Agree with lots of parts, disagree with: If you mess up the concave and don't micro, you deserve to lose a 40 supply lead. Happens both ways. Protoss with +40 supply won't lose the fight. At least I've never seen that happen. eh if you just a-moved into a concave with no micro, i'd definitely say the 40 supply lead would be lost. Thing is, it's rare for toss to be up a lot in supply in situations in which the game is not already over (as in, after a big fight/ allin). After watching a bunch of games though, i think the MS core may be sliiiightly too safe. Not so much "imba" as "boring". It feels like PvT is growing similar to old PvZ. Two people turtling until the big endgame fight happens. Maybe they need to give nex cannon a higher energy cost or something.
While I agree that MsC can give the protoss too much defence. It is a pretty big investment (100 gas to protoss is pretty harsh in the early game), but protoss needs something to help get up and running before turbo-vacs start boosting in for drops. Protoss can no longer punish a messed up drop, so if the energy cost is increased, it would need to do more damage so that the terran can be zoned out for the duration of planetary nexus. At least if the energy is increased it will mean more to force the spell out as well. That way terran can do more earlier (the first nexus cannon is delay), but less with drops (medivacs can be zoned out easier).
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Wow. People are actually complaining about MMA Naniwa and the WCS EU.
SC2 community as good as SC2's design.
On August 08 2013 04:02 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 04:01 convention wrote:On August 08 2013 03:51 plogamer wrote:On August 08 2013 03:49 NarutO wrote:
While I believe there are lots of issues in Terran vs Protoss. I wouldn't name AcerMMA vs NaNiWa to point out those. MMA really didn't play well. In the end, there are some keypoints in this game that illustrates Protoss abilities that give Terran a hard time but overall, MMA played a terrible game. MMA played well enough to acrue a 40 supply lead with better upgrades. His biggest mistake was that emps didn't land on templars, otherwise his superior army with the better concave should have fared better. MMA made quite a few mistakes that lost his lead: He had no vikings for Naniwa's 4 collosi. He didn't EMP the HT. He had a terrible concave. He didn't kite any of his units back against zealots or even just move out of storm. If a 40-supply-up protoss army walks up a choke into a huge concave with vikings sitting on a ledge sniping collosi, then I don't care if he stormed the terran army and feedback'd every single ghost, he will get crushed. PvT is so positional based in those big fights. If you mess the concave up and don't micro, you deserve to lose a 40 supply lead. Happens both ways. Agree with lots of parts, disagree with: If you mess up the concave and don't micro, you deserve to lose a 40 supply lead. Happens both ways. Protoss with +40 supply won't lose the fight. At least I've never seen that happen.
Thank god you qualified that...
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Protoss is slightly OP these days, mainly due to storms. Insane Aoe which is quite hard to counter.
At least i keep seeing P beeing "too far" behind but still winning.
At least I extremely rarely see Z winning after beeing far behind.
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So I'm wondering ... (and rather than qualify every statement here consider what follows as purely hypothetical)
Let's suppose that in TvZ bio-mine is ever so slightly favoured against Muta/Ling/Bling. Changing any of the units in either side's composition, however slight, is probably overkill and will have terrible results not only in TvZ but other matchups too. Vipers seem somewhat underused in the ZvT matchup, so the idea is to change Blinding Cloud to reveal cloaked/burrowed units. Now if Zerg is diligent about teching to Hive they have a way to very quickly deal, in a mechanical fashion, with Widow Mines. The current logic is to get to Ultras to charge on through, but this would allow a more technical, if more difficult, way to deal with the constant rally of Terran units. It would also allow Zerg to more firmly stand their ground at the creepline, and possibly give them opportunity to respread creep after big engagements (is it just me or do so many of these engagements come down to whether they occur on creep or off creep?) since Terrans would be reticent of running into Clouds to kill of creep.
In response, Terrans might choose to go for Ghosts to pick off Vipers with EMP and Snipe (which outrange the Viper abilities only by 1), and force out more Blinding Clouds than are totally necessarry.
That way, the matchup might integrate two more units from each side and hopefully only one small change (dunno how much this affects ZvP?) The other change to Blinding Cloud that I was thinking of is to have Zerg units inside the Cloud move at the speed they would move on creep, but I can see than being broken as shit vs biomine.
Anycase, I just thought it a mildly interesting concept and was wondering what folk more knowledgeable than I would have to say>
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On August 08 2013 05:01 SeinGalton wrote:
So I'm wondering ... (and rather than qualify every statement here consider what follows as purely hypothetical)
Let's suppose that in TvZ bio-mine is ever so slightly favoured against Muta/Ling/Bling. Changing any of the units in either side's composition, however slight, is probably overkill and will have terrible results not only in TvZ but other matchups too. Vipers seem somewhat underused in the ZvT matchup, so the idea is to change Blinding Cloud to reveal cloaked/burrowed units. Now if Zerg is diligent about teching to Hive they have a way to very quickly deal, in a mechanical fashion, with Widow Mines. The current logic is to get to Ultras to charge on through, but this would allow a more technical, if more difficult, way to deal with the constant rally of Terran units. It would also allow Zerg to more firmly stand their ground at the creepline, and possibly give them opportunity to respread creep after big engagements (is it just me or do so many of these engagements come down to whether they occur on creep or off creep?) since Terrans would be reticent of running into Clouds to kill of creep.
In response, Terrans might choose to go for Ghosts to pick off Vipers with EMP and Snipe (which outrange the Viper abilities only by 1), and force out more Blinding Clouds than are totally necessarry.
That way, the matchup might integrate two more units from each side and hopefully only one small change (dunno how much this affects ZvP?) The other change to Blinding Cloud that I was thinking of is to have Zerg units inside the Cloud move at the speed they would move on creep, but I can see than being broken as shit vs biomine.
Anycase, I just thought it a mildly interesting concept and was wondering what folk more knowledgeable than I would have to say>
Fungal growth will reveal cloaked/burrowed units. Fungals go the next step and will kill the mines too.
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On August 08 2013 04:56 hasuguard wrote:
Protoss is slightly OP these days, mainly due to storms. Insane Aoe which is quite hard to counter.
At least i keep seeing P beeing "too far" behind but still winning.
At least I extremely rarely see Z winning after beeing far behind.
Not slightly. Protoss is guaranteed a lategame with MS and hellbat nerf (no Hellbat drop, no more Polt's marauder hellbat timing).
Lategame there is no way terran can attack into Protoss after winning an engagement because of storms, warp in, time warps, planetary nexus. Templars and warpins laugh at drops too. Of course if terran loses a fight it's instant gg because no hellbats to deal with zealot warp ins.
To add insult to injury, Protoss have varieties of two bases all-in that are guaranteed to work if not scouted.
It is quite disgusting actually. No wonder Bomber didn't bother to play one macro game against Rain (or First ).
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On August 08 2013 05:40 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 04:56 hasuguard wrote:
Protoss is slightly OP these days, mainly due to storms. Insane Aoe which is quite hard to counter.
At least i keep seeing P beeing "too far" behind but still winning.
At least I extremely rarely see Z winning after beeing far behind. Not slightly. Protoss is guaranteed a lategame with MS and hellbat nerf (no Hellbat drop, no more Polt's marauder hellbat timing). Lategame there is no way terran can attack into Protoss after winning an engagement because of storms, warp in, time warps, planetary nexus. Templars and warpins laugh at drops too. Of course if terran loses a fight it's instant gg because no hellbats to deal with zealot warp ins. To add insult to injury, Protoss have varieties of two bases all-in that are guaranteed to work if not scouted. It is quite disgusting actually. No wonder Bomber didn't bother to play one macro game against Rain (or First ).
Kinda agree. Protoss can afford beeing further behind than any other race atm. Since the terran nerfs it has been a while since a saw a (good) protoss lose a lategame.
I reckon storm should have a wee less damage.
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As a Terran I just want to apologize to every Zerg player out there. TvZ is Terran favored if it goes into a standard macro game.
I am aware, I have a conscience. I have no idea how Zerg will be good at this rate, Protoss is completely god-mode vs everything and bio-mine is a bit too strong in TvZ.
I am fucking sorry guys T_T
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On August 08 2013 05:33 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 05:01 SeinGalton wrote:
So I'm wondering ... (and rather than qualify every statement here consider what follows as purely hypothetical)
Let's suppose that in TvZ bio-mine is ever so slightly favoured against Muta/Ling/Bling. Changing any of the units in either side's composition, however slight, is probably overkill and will have terrible results not only in TvZ but other matchups too. Vipers seem somewhat underused in the ZvT matchup, so the idea is to change Blinding Cloud to reveal cloaked/burrowed units. Now if Zerg is diligent about teching to Hive they have a way to very quickly deal, in a mechanical fashion, with Widow Mines. The current logic is to get to Ultras to charge on through, but this would allow a more technical, if more difficult, way to deal with the constant rally of Terran units. It would also allow Zerg to more firmly stand their ground at the creepline, and possibly give them opportunity to respread creep after big engagements (is it just me or do so many of these engagements come down to whether they occur on creep or off creep?) since Terrans would be reticent of running into Clouds to kill of creep.
In response, Terrans might choose to go for Ghosts to pick off Vipers with EMP and Snipe (which outrange the Viper abilities only by 1), and force out more Blinding Clouds than are totally necessarry.
That way, the matchup might integrate two more units from each side and hopefully only one small change (dunno how much this affects ZvP?) The other change to Blinding Cloud that I was thinking of is to have Zerg units inside the Cloud move at the speed they would move on creep, but I can see than being broken as shit vs biomine.
Anycase, I just thought it a mildly interesting concept and was wondering what folk more knowledgeable than I would have to say> Fungal growth will reveal cloaked/burrowed units. Fungals go the next step and will kill the mines too.
Oh yeah, certainly, but Fungals make for a different dynamic where they dodge fungals and then sprint back after the split to immediately resume the engagement. My thinking behind Blinding Cloud is that it would allow the Zerg to buy time for 3/3 and ultra tech. But yeah, Infestors might still wind up being the more cost efficient way to combat BioMine.
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On August 08 2013 05:57 ImperialFist wrote:
As a Terran I just want to apologize to every Zerg player out there. TvZ is Terran favored if it goes into a standard macro game.
I am aware, I have a conscience. I have no idea how Zerg will be good at this rate, Protoss is completely god-mode vs everything and bio-mine is a bit too strong in TvZ.
I am fucking sorry guys T_T
Apology accepted.
Although I do believe the proposed change to let Blinding Cloud "stick" on their targets is an excellent idea. So what has been suggested is changing Blinding Cloud to merely reduce range of units hit by three. This means Bio won't have as easy of a time picking off Zerg as we're trying to engage off-creep. It'll vastly reduce the DPS density of a clumped bio-ball, while allowing Zerg to reach a higher DPS density due to superior concave with Roach/Hydra.
Since the reduction suggested will allow Mech more flexibility, while still being an excellent siege-breaker unit and ability, I am absolutely loving the suggestion. It might be all Zerg needs to make the late-game more versatile.
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I wonder how this thread would look like with 7/8 T in WCS Eu ro8
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On August 08 2013 07:12 scypio wrote:I wonder how this thread would look like with 7/8 T in WCS Eu ro8
Yeah you've discovered a great injustice, nobody is complaining about protoss at all in this thread right now.
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If anybody is interested, I just published a custom Unit Tester (should be available on EU and AM servers) with the following change:
Blinding Cloud
Energy from 100-->125
Radius from 2-->3
Effect: Range -5 instead of complete reduction
Mapname: Blinding Cloud Unit Tester by Jay
I advice you to test 20roaches+1viper against 6tanks, siege the tanks and amove. Then repeat with a blinding cloud, to see how useful the effect still is against tanks.
Then play around with choke points (the unit tester allows for that) and look for how much space control a single BC allows now.
Would love to hear some feedback.
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On August 08 2013 07:12 scypio wrote:I wonder how this thread would look like with 7/8 T in WCS Eu ro8
Don't speak of the impossible - are there even 7 decent foreigner Terrans in existence?
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EPT
