EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 677
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 08 2013 03:30 Pirfiktshon wrote: WHOA WHOA WHOA 150 minerals + the time lost mining and the Money it takes to rebuild those workers to resaturate..... No damage LOL Please don't dumb down the thread. We are trying to have a discussion where people actually put effort in what they are writing. Your posting history is terrible to begin with, please don't post such stupid comments here, thanks. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On August 08 2013 02:40 MstrJinbo wrote: Yeah tell that to Life or Jaedong or any number of pro zergs. Someone needs to tell them that lings suck  The race with broodlords. Swarmhosts and infestors shouldn't really complain about other races getting free stuff. Yeah good example to mention Zerg player who have very poor result (and a legend of BW who beats NA foreigner don't count as good results) at this moment despite they're incredibly skilled. Have you seen broodlords recently in a pro match up ? Tempest/raven crush them. And for SH/infestor the Zerg can't directly kill protoss death ball with any other units and the only way to kill it is too slowly grab their units. And as i say, it's the very late game zerg, they don't help at all in the early/mid game. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
I'm sorry if some of my posts suck I post sometimes when I'm at work and I can't finish all of them..... | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
MMA was 50 supply ahead, still lose to that... And you say TvP is balanced? | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On August 08 2013 03:41 larse wrote: Naniwa's entire army was hit by EMP by clocked ghost. No Storm left, No shield left. MMA was 50 supply ahead, still lose to that... And you say TvP is balanced? Nah, those precious high templars did not get emp'ed. /edit But yeah, fuck TvP | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On August 08 2013 03:41 larse wrote: Naniwa's entire army was hit by EMP by clocked ghost. No Storm left, No shield left. MMA was 50 supply ahead, still lose to that... And you say TvP is balanced? There once was this terran that walked straight in to colossus. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On August 08 2013 03:41 larse wrote: Naniwa's entire army was hit by EMP by clocked ghost. No Storm left, No shield left. MMA was 50 supply ahead, still lose to that... And you say TvP is balanced? Naniwa's entire army except his high templar were EMP'd you mean? And then MMA didn't micro any of his units out of storm, and didn't have vikings to kill off Naniwa's 4 collosi. And you want to use that fight as a balance complaint? | ||
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JSK
United States133 Posts
On August 08 2013 03:44 plogamer wrote: Nah, those precious high templars did not get emp'ed. /edit But yeah, fuck TvP childish, biased, anecdotal. not worthy of TL | ||
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
On August 08 2013 03:47 convention wrote: Naniwa's entire army except his high templar were EMP'd you mean? And then MMA didn't micro any of his units out of storm, and didn't have vikings to kill off Naniwa's 4 collosi. And you want to use that fight as a balance complaint? Terrans have been getting destroyed by Protoss these last few days. What about any of those games? Did you watch any of the TvPs in the Up + Downs yesterday? | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On August 08 2013 03:49 NarutO wrote: While I believe there are lots of issues in Terran vs Protoss. I wouldn't name AcerMMA vs NaNiWa to point out those. MMA really didn't play well. In the end, there are some keypoints in this game that illustrates Protoss abilities that give Terran a hard time but overall, MMA played a terrible game. MMA played well enough to acrue a 40 supply lead with better upgrades. His biggest mistake was that emps didn't land on templars, otherwise his superior army with the better concave should have fared better. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
Yeah good example to mention Zerg player who have very poor result (and a legend of BW who beats NA foreigner don't count as good results) at this moment despite they're incredibly skilled. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-korean&type=players&id=2747&part=games&league=standard&vs=T | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 08 2013 03:51 plogamer wrote: MMA played well enough to acrue a 40 supply lead with better upgrades. His biggest mistake was that emps didn't land on templars, otherwise his superior army with the better concave should have fared better. His fights (the arc / concave in the first fight) were terrible, really just overall a sloppy game. There really are better examples to show where the problems are. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On August 08 2013 03:49 Rhaegal wrote: Terrans have been getting destroyed by Protoss these last few days. What about any of those games? Did you watch any of the TvPs in the Up + Downs yesterday? I'm going to stress a statement here: "last few days". Seriously, if there are 10 games played, then seeing a 70% win percentage for one race is extremely common even for a perfectly balanced game. If you show me the last month (which I'm looking at with July winrates), then it looks close to balanced. Put some error bars on your stuff and you'll see that you can't distinguish 70% from 50% with only 10 games. And to put another point on this, look at the week before the week you just mentioned, terran did rather well. Let's be honest here, the game is currently close to balanced. I agree with most people that terran can have a pretty hard time lategame against protoss, and can't do much off of one base. But protoss has a hard time holding off drops and nexus snipes (you can see how MMA exploited Naniwa's immobility by dropping on his fourth to snipe it with a single medivac while having his army outside naniwa's third). Both races have hard stuff to deal with, one can always try to argue that protoss's hard parts are easier to cope with, but I think there are a large number of people that think it's the opposite. Maybe there could be tweaks so that protoss can cope with drops (and do their own drops) easier, while terran is then compensated in the later stages of the game (or earier stages of the game). But do not try to argue that PvT is massively imbalanced when all of the statistics show it isn't. | ||
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JSK
United States133 Posts
On August 08 2013 02:19 TheDwf wrote: Talking about your PvT winrate is irrelevant because you're neither Terran nor high level; the lowest Protoss I face have around ~2.1k points, up to 2.6+k if I convert points from GM to Master, so you're hundreds if not more than a thousand points away from them. Just see by yourself and ask the other high level Terrans posting on this site what they think about TvP. As I said earlier, "Winrates also say nothing about coinflip issues, nothing about the respective difficulty to play for each side, nothing about the risk/ratio for certain things, and they say nothing about the potential each side still holds in developing its play against the other race." I expect winrates to adjust in the next months anyway, it just seems inevitable to me. It's only a matter of time. You're the one being mistaken, because you wrongly assume things will even out because the defender is also better. But no, it doesn't work like that at all, and I didn't mention the Bomber vs Rain by accident. Both played close to optimally their respective plans, and it resulted in a hilariously one-sided stomp. Why? Because in this case (Marines/Hellions attack after expand), when the defender plays optimally, what the attacker is doing doesn't matter: his attack simply won't pay off, and he's left extremely vulnerable to any immediate counter (= a random Pylon which could be anywhere) since he's building his bio infrastructure behind. You have absolutely no need to show me what happens when the defender fails; I could pull out dozens of games like that from my personal bag. It doesn't matter, because in all of them Protoss doesn't scout correctly or reacts in some horrible way (top100 GM a-moving all his Probes vs 6 Hellions? check). What matters is what happens if Protoss plays correctly, or even perfectly, and in this case we have Rain vs Bomber. Hence why this example is representative, while the dozens of others Probes bbq I and you could bring up don't matter. You can't know this because you don't play Terran at high level, while I do, so I know what happens when Protoss defends adequately, because my opponent have generally no trouble doing so. can't believe a moderator is being so subjective/ anecdotal in his balance whines, especially about fucking Protoss for fucks sake. for shame | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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convention
United States622 Posts
On August 08 2013 03:51 plogamer wrote: MMA played well enough to acrue a 40 supply lead with better upgrades. His biggest mistake was that emps didn't land on templars, otherwise his superior army with the better concave should have fared better. MMA made quite a few mistakes that lost his lead: He had no vikings for Naniwa's 4 collosi. He didn't EMP the HT. He had a terrible concave. He didn't kite any of his units back against zealots or even just move out of storm. If a 40-supply-up protoss army walks up a choke into a huge concave with vikings sitting on a ledge sniping collosi, then I don't care if he stormed the terran army and feedback'd every single ghost, he will get crushed. PvT is so positional based in those big fights. If you mess the concave up and don't micro, you deserve to lose a 40 supply lead. Happens both ways. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On August 08 2013 03:58 JSK wrote: can't believe a moderator is being so subjective/ anecdotal in his balance whines, especially about fucking Protoss for fucks sake. for shame What moderator? And go wash your mouth with soap before you try to take the moral high ground. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 08 2013 04:01 convention wrote: MMA made quite a few mistakes that lost his lead: He had no vikings for Naniwa's 4 collosi. He didn't EMP the HT. He had a terrible concave. He didn't kite any of his units back against zealots or even just move out of storm. If a 40-supply-up protoss army walks up a choke into a huge concave with vikings sitting on a ledge sniping collosi, then I don't care if he stormed the terran army and feedback'd every single ghost, he will get crushed. PvT is so positional based in those big fights. If you mess the concave up and don't micro, you deserve to lose a 40 supply lead. Happens both ways. Agree with lots of parts, disagree with: If you mess up the concave and don't micro, you deserve to lose a 40 supply lead. Happens both ways. Protoss with +40 supply won't lose the fight. At least I've never seen that happen. | ||
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