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On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced.
i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better
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Terrans just keep using bio-medivac. They're so uncreative and never try anything new. That's what all the WoL kneejerk patches were about.
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On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better
Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored?
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On July 11 2013 03:00 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Terrans just keep using bio-medivac. They're so uncreative and never try anything new. That's what all the WoL kneejerk patches were about.
I hate when people make suggestions like this.
Terran uses bio-medivac because bio-medivac works best.
If we want Terran to do other stuff, Blizzard needs to give them viable options.
I think Blizzard did a lot of good with removing the energy bar from the Thor, it is now viable in TvP (and quite decent in the stats department) but still not worth researching a whole new set of upgrades and generally too hard to be worth incorporating into the Terran army.
Give the Thor an upgrade that increases their move speed available after the fusion core is built, and maybe we start seeing them in lategame TvP, giving Terrans an option that doesn't melt to splash damage. Shit, if Thors become viable, then we'll probably see mines, tanks, and hellbats regularly, now you've got full blown mech vs Protoss all based on making 1 unit a little bit faster.
Terran doesn't go bio-medivac because they're uncreative, they go bio-medivac because nothing else is viable. Blame Blizzard for being uncreative, not Terran players. Same goes for all races...
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On July 11 2013 03:15 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 03:00 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Terrans just keep using bio-medivac. They're so uncreative and never try anything new. That's what all the WoL kneejerk patches were about. I hate when people make suggestions like this. Terran uses bio-medivac because bio-medivac works best. If we want Terran to do other stuff, Blizzard needs to give them viable options. I think Blizzard did a lot of good with removing the energy bar from the Thor, it is now viable in TvP (and quite decent in the stats department) but still not worth researching a whole new set of upgrades and generally too hard to be worth incorporating into the Terran army. Give the Thor an upgrade that increases their move speed available after the fusion core is built, and maybe we start seeing them in lategame TvP, giving Terrans an option that doesn't melt to splash damage. Shit, if Thors become viable, then we'll probably see mines, tanks, and hellbats regularly, now you've got full blown mech vs Protoss all based on making 1 unit a little bit faster. Terran doesn't go bio-medivac because they're uncreative, they go bio-medivac because nothing else is viable.
I think his post was sarcastic.
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On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored?
Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable.
I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways.
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On July 11 2013 01:48 plogamer wrote:
Good luck playing with a raven, BC, ghost "deathball". That's not what I said, though. What I said is that they haven't incorporated these units into their play.
And why aren't these units ingredients of a deathball, by the way? Because they have spells? You mean like sentries and high templars? It's one standard for Terran, another for Protoss.
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On July 11 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored? Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable. I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways.
Protoss is allowed to make more mistakes in late game than Terran, if the trade is even they reinforce instantly, meaning that Terran needs to win every fight handily or else he dies. Nexus cannon killed every all in, or even the common things like 7 marine pressure we saw in WoL.
I really thing Protoss is too strong in TvP. Their cheese and all ins are so much more powerful (1 oracle killing 5 marines is simply silly) and a lot of maps are so hard to hold off a simple blink stalker all in, they get free map hacks early game with MSC and hallucination, and now with hellbat nerf chargelot all ins just got so much stronger.
I would switch to ZvP, but the vs P matchup looks pretty similar for them as well. Even when 2x as fast, he simply turtles up and can win from 1 a move engagement if your engagement is perfect. Is there a reason they need the fastest and cheapest upgrades?
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On July 11 2013 05:18 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored? Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable. I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways. Protoss is allowed to make more mistakes in late game than Terran, if the trade is even they reinforce instantly, meaning that Terran needs to win every fight handily or else he dies. Nexus cannon killed every all in, or even the common things like 7 marine pressure we saw in WoL. I really thing Protoss is too strong in TvP. Their cheese and all ins are so much more powerful (1 oracle killing 5 marines is simply silly) and a lot of maps are so hard to hold off a simple blink stalker all in, they get free map hacks early game with MSC and hallucination, and now with hellbat nerf chargelot all ins just got so much stronger. I would switch to ZvP, but the vs P matchup looks pretty similar for them as well. Even when 2x as fast, he simply turtles up and can win from 1 a move engagement if your engagement is perfect. Is there a reason they need the fastest and cheapest upgrades?
Holy cow.
Terran needs to win every engagement because they have to wait for their units to finish instead of waiting for a cooldown? I don't even know how to respond to that, besides "No; you're wrong".
Nexus cannon kills every all-in? Maybe it can thwart off some early pressure, but that's far different than all-ins, especially when a stimmed bio army can shoot down a nexus in five seconds flat and completely ignore the nexus cannon.
Terran cheese is just as annoying for Protoss. Widow mine drops, bio drops, banshees, hellbat/ BFH drops (the former is just as useful after waiting the two minutes it takes to upgrade them back to their original damage), etc.
1a-ing to victory? You realize that Protoss players use more spellcasters than any other race, right? Maybe splitting isn't as important as it is for Terran, but 1a? Seriously?
Just out of curiosity, what league are you in? And also, do you watch professional StarCraft 2 at all?
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On July 11 2013 05:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 05:18 Rhaegal wrote:On July 11 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored? Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable. I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways. Protoss is allowed to make more mistakes in late game than Terran, if the trade is even they reinforce instantly, meaning that Terran needs to win every fight handily or else he dies. Nexus cannon killed every all in, or even the common things like 7 marine pressure we saw in WoL. I really thing Protoss is too strong in TvP. Their cheese and all ins are so much more powerful (1 oracle killing 5 marines is simply silly) and a lot of maps are so hard to hold off a simple blink stalker all in, they get free map hacks early game with MSC and hallucination, and now with hellbat nerf chargelot all ins just got so much stronger. I would switch to ZvP, but the vs P matchup looks pretty similar for them as well. Even when 2x as fast, he simply turtles up and can win from 1 a move engagement if your engagement is perfect. Is there a reason they need the fastest and cheapest upgrades? Holy cow. Terran needs to win every engagement because they have to wait for their units to finish instead of waiting for a cooldown? I don't even know how to respond to that, besides "No; you're wrong". Nexus cannon kills every all-in? Maybe it can thwart off some early pressure, but that's far different than all-ins, especially when a stimmed bio army can shoot down a nexus in five seconds flat and completely ignore the nexus cannon. Terran cheese is just as annoying for Protoss. Widow mine drops, bio drops, banshees, hellbat/ BFH drops (the former is just as useful after waiting the two minutes it takes to upgrade them back to their original damage), etc. 1a-ing to victory? You realize that Protoss players use more spellcasters than any other race, right? Maybe splitting isn't as important as it is for Terran, but 1a? Seriously? Just out of curiosity, what league are you in? And also, do you watch professional StarCraft 2 at all?
Protoss is pretty damn 1-A once you get a sizable deathball... how are you going to argue against that? lol jesus...
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On July 11 2013 05:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 05:18 Rhaegal wrote:On July 11 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored? Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable. I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways. Protoss is allowed to make more mistakes in late game than Terran, if the trade is even they reinforce instantly, meaning that Terran needs to win every fight handily or else he dies. Nexus cannon killed every all in, or even the common things like 7 marine pressure we saw in WoL. I really thing Protoss is too strong in TvP. Their cheese and all ins are so much more powerful (1 oracle killing 5 marines is simply silly) and a lot of maps are so hard to hold off a simple blink stalker all in, they get free map hacks early game with MSC and hallucination, and now with hellbat nerf chargelot all ins just got so much stronger. I would switch to ZvP, but the vs P matchup looks pretty similar for them as well. Even when 2x as fast, he simply turtles up and can win from 1 a move engagement if your engagement is perfect. Is there a reason they need the fastest and cheapest upgrades? Holy cow. Terran needs to win every engagement because they have to wait for their units to finish instead of waiting for a cooldown? I don't even know how to respond to that, besides "No; you're wrong". Nexus cannon kills every all-in? Maybe it can thwart off some early pressure, but that's far different than all-ins, especially when a stimmed bio army can shoot down a nexus in five seconds flat and completely ignore the nexus cannon. Terran cheese is just as annoying for Protoss. Widow mine drops, bio drops, banshees, hellbat/ BFH drops (the former is just as useful after waiting the two minutes it takes to upgrade them back to their original damage), etc. 1a-ing to victory? You realize that Protoss players use more spellcasters than any other race, right? Maybe splitting isn't as important as it is for Terran, but 1a? Seriously? Just out of curiosity, what league are you in? And also, do you watch professional StarCraft 2 at all?
High masters, masters since 2010 end of season 1 (day masters came out), and have watched every major SC2 tourney for past 3 years.
The fact you think Terran's cheese/all ins are as good as Protoss' is simply baffling.
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On July 11 2013 05:47 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 05:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 05:18 Rhaegal wrote:On July 11 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored? Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable. I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways. Protoss is allowed to make more mistakes in late game than Terran, if the trade is even they reinforce instantly, meaning that Terran needs to win every fight handily or else he dies. Nexus cannon killed every all in, or even the common things like 7 marine pressure we saw in WoL. I really thing Protoss is too strong in TvP. Their cheese and all ins are so much more powerful (1 oracle killing 5 marines is simply silly) and a lot of maps are so hard to hold off a simple blink stalker all in, they get free map hacks early game with MSC and hallucination, and now with hellbat nerf chargelot all ins just got so much stronger. I would switch to ZvP, but the vs P matchup looks pretty similar for them as well. Even when 2x as fast, he simply turtles up and can win from 1 a move engagement if your engagement is perfect. Is there a reason they need the fastest and cheapest upgrades? Holy cow. Terran needs to win every engagement because they have to wait for their units to finish instead of waiting for a cooldown? I don't even know how to respond to that, besides "No; you're wrong". Nexus cannon kills every all-in? Maybe it can thwart off some early pressure, but that's far different than all-ins, especially when a stimmed bio army can shoot down a nexus in five seconds flat and completely ignore the nexus cannon. Terran cheese is just as annoying for Protoss. Widow mine drops, bio drops, banshees, hellbat/ BFH drops (the former is just as useful after waiting the two minutes it takes to upgrade them back to their original damage), etc. 1a-ing to victory? You realize that Protoss players use more spellcasters than any other race, right? Maybe splitting isn't as important as it is for Terran, but 1a? Seriously? Just out of curiosity, what league are you in? And also, do you watch professional StarCraft 2 at all? High masters, masters since 2010 end of season 1 (day masters came out), and have watched every major SC2 tourney for past 3 years. The fact you think Terran's cheese/all ins are as good as Protoss' is simply baffling.
Yea, most masters+ Protoss also readily admit its much more forgiving than Terran... its really not hard to tell once youve played both races even a small amount.
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On July 11 2013 05:45 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 05:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 05:18 Rhaegal wrote:On July 11 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored? Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable. I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways. Protoss is allowed to make more mistakes in late game than Terran, if the trade is even they reinforce instantly, meaning that Terran needs to win every fight handily or else he dies. Nexus cannon killed every all in, or even the common things like 7 marine pressure we saw in WoL. I really thing Protoss is too strong in TvP. Their cheese and all ins are so much more powerful (1 oracle killing 5 marines is simply silly) and a lot of maps are so hard to hold off a simple blink stalker all in, they get free map hacks early game with MSC and hallucination, and now with hellbat nerf chargelot all ins just got so much stronger. I would switch to ZvP, but the vs P matchup looks pretty similar for them as well. Even when 2x as fast, he simply turtles up and can win from 1 a move engagement if your engagement is perfect. Is there a reason they need the fastest and cheapest upgrades? Holy cow. Terran needs to win every engagement because they have to wait for their units to finish instead of waiting for a cooldown? I don't even know how to respond to that, besides "No; you're wrong". Nexus cannon kills every all-in? Maybe it can thwart off some early pressure, but that's far different than all-ins, especially when a stimmed bio army can shoot down a nexus in five seconds flat and completely ignore the nexus cannon. Terran cheese is just as annoying for Protoss. Widow mine drops, bio drops, banshees, hellbat/ BFH drops (the former is just as useful after waiting the two minutes it takes to upgrade them back to their original damage), etc. 1a-ing to victory? You realize that Protoss players use more spellcasters than any other race, right? Maybe splitting isn't as important as it is for Terran, but 1a? Seriously? Just out of curiosity, what league are you in? And also, do you watch professional StarCraft 2 at all? Protoss is pretty damn 1-A once you get a sizable deathball... how are you going to argue against that? lol jesus...
With high templar, blink stalkers, and forcefields, probably.
EDIT: And now the mothership core too, because why the hell not.
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On July 11 2013 05:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 05:45 SupLilSon wrote:On July 11 2013 05:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 05:18 Rhaegal wrote:On July 11 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored? Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable. I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways. Protoss is allowed to make more mistakes in late game than Terran, if the trade is even they reinforce instantly, meaning that Terran needs to win every fight handily or else he dies. Nexus cannon killed every all in, or even the common things like 7 marine pressure we saw in WoL. I really thing Protoss is too strong in TvP. Their cheese and all ins are so much more powerful (1 oracle killing 5 marines is simply silly) and a lot of maps are so hard to hold off a simple blink stalker all in, they get free map hacks early game with MSC and hallucination, and now with hellbat nerf chargelot all ins just got so much stronger. I would switch to ZvP, but the vs P matchup looks pretty similar for them as well. Even when 2x as fast, he simply turtles up and can win from 1 a move engagement if your engagement is perfect. Is there a reason they need the fastest and cheapest upgrades? Holy cow. Terran needs to win every engagement because they have to wait for their units to finish instead of waiting for a cooldown? I don't even know how to respond to that, besides "No; you're wrong". Nexus cannon kills every all-in? Maybe it can thwart off some early pressure, but that's far different than all-ins, especially when a stimmed bio army can shoot down a nexus in five seconds flat and completely ignore the nexus cannon. Terran cheese is just as annoying for Protoss. Widow mine drops, bio drops, banshees, hellbat/ BFH drops (the former is just as useful after waiting the two minutes it takes to upgrade them back to their original damage), etc. 1a-ing to victory? You realize that Protoss players use more spellcasters than any other race, right? Maybe splitting isn't as important as it is for Terran, but 1a? Seriously? Just out of curiosity, what league are you in? And also, do you watch professional StarCraft 2 at all? Protoss is pretty damn 1-A once you get a sizable deathball... how are you going to argue against that? lol jesus... With high templar, blink stalkers, and forcefields, probably.
Why argue with them? They are part of the "endless terran whine, protoss is 1-A race and zerg is impossible to beat" club. There is nothing that can be said that will convince them otherwise.
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On July 11 2013 05:18 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored? Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable. I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways. Protoss is allowed to make more mistakes in late game than Terran,
Not true at high levels. If your Templar get EMP'd, don't get good Storms, or if your Colossi get picked off, you are at a huge disadvantage, and, in some cases, will outrightly lose the game. Hell, even things like misplacing your Observer can have huge repercussions. Nobody can really make mistakes that late into the game, unless they're tiny things like losing a couple Marines here or a few Stalkers there.
if the trade is even they reinforce instantly, meaning that Terran needs to win every fight handily or else he dies. Except Protoss, last I checked, can't warp in Colossi or Observers; you know, some of the key components of their late game composition? Furthermore, they have to wait for Storm energy, so warping in Templar is for Archons if they're used immediately. In addition, Terran has the advantage of being able to (at a certain point) sacrifice SCVs in order to mine purely from MULEs once they have sufficient Orbitals. Protoss cannot do this and therefore tends to have a small overall army supply. Finally, unless you're engaging 1 meter in front of your production, there is no way whatsoever for a Protoss player to kill you after evenly trading by warping in reinforcements. What might happen is that he'll be able to deny a mining expansion. But trading "evenly" is misleading. If by "evenly" you mean that you lose all of your bio, Ghosts, and Medivacs/Vikings in order to kill Chargelots, Stalkers, and a couple Colossi, you didn't trade evenly. You traded badly, especially considering that you have higher army supply to begin with.
Nexus cannon killed every all in, or even the common things like 7 marine pressure we saw in WoL.
It didn't kill every all-in. It killed all-ins that were largely gimmicky/terrible/boring like 3rax and, to some extent, 1-1-1. But neither of these all-ins were even good in WoL by the end anyway. In fact, TvP wasn't even really about all-inning most of the time even prior to the addition of Nexus Cannon!
I really thing Protoss is too strong in TvP.
Why do you think this?
Their cheese and all ins are so much more powerful (1 oracle killing 5 marines is simply silly)
The Oracle is pretty much the only particularly strong cheese/all-in play, and even then it's best when unscouted + proxied and against some sort of low-Marine build like Reaper or somesuch. The thing is, though, if you open Reaper, you should scout the gas and see the Stargate(if proxied)/expansion timing/worker saturation on gas etc. etc. Also, Helbat drops and Widow Mine drops can be very devastating if you don't react properly to them.
and a lot of maps are so hard to hold off a simple blink stalker all in,
On a lot of maps it's hard to defend multiple pronged drops because the bases have a wonky pathway between them, but that doesn't mean Terran is OP; it means that certain playstyles are viable against Terran on certain maps whereas others aren't.
they get free map hacks early game with MSC and hallucination,
Free? Mothership Core costs 100 gas, as does each Sentry. MSC can't enter a Terran's base without getting killed past the first few minutes of the game (at which point you can barely see anything that a scouting probe wouldn't be able to see most of the time).
and now with hellbat nerf chargelot all ins just got so much stronger.
Chargelots are identical to Chargelots in WoL. Chargelot all-ins were defensible in WoL, so they're defensible now. One of the useful parts of Helbats is their ability to absorb damage due to their high HP plus biological tag. Against Chargelots, which require surface area to do damage (Helbat small model etc.) Helbas will remain good in defending all-ins.
I would switch to ZvP, but the vs P matchup looks pretty similar for them as well. Even when 2x as fast, he simply turtles up and can win from 1 a move engagement if your engagement is perfect. Is there a reason they need the fastest and cheapest upgrades?
ZvP isn't even remotely similar to TvP I'm not even sure what you're talking about. The entire dynamic is completely different because Zerg has two or three mutually exclusive tech paths whereas Terran pretty much always plays MMMVG + Helbats later. Protoss openings against Zerg are way different than against Terran, because Z/T have different strengths at different points of the game.Taking a third against Terran is doable with a small number of high tech units (Colossi, Templar depending on timing) whereas against Zerg you need to have an overall strong composition or, even though you trade well for supply, you'll end up getting swarmed. The key difference here is that midgame Terran pushes (non-allin) are small numbers of units that do huge DPS, are very maneuverable, and have Medivacs to heal. Since Colossi kill most low-tier units very quickly, 1-2 Colossi, even without range, are enough to repel a Terran Medivac push in the midgame, as they do AoE damage versus a small number of Medivacs. Against Zerg, on the other hand, you have things like Roaches or Mutas, which require very specific compositional-counters in order to allow you to take a defensible third. Even if you have a Colossus and some Sentries, you'll still die if the Zerg streams in mass Ling/Roach to your third, because you just can't kill them fast enough to preserve your Sentries. This is why you can't do PvT openings against Z and vice-versa.
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Protoss is (more or less) a 1 - A race. However, that's not necessarily a good thing because once the other two races outmicro and trade efficiently because they can get more out of their units with micro when Protoss can pretty much only a-move, that becomes a problem for Protoss since while they can change terrain, they can't change their own race design (which is pretty crappy imo)
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On July 11 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 05:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 05:45 SupLilSon wrote:On July 11 2013 05:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 05:18 Rhaegal wrote:On July 11 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored? Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable. I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways. Protoss is allowed to make more mistakes in late game than Terran, if the trade is even they reinforce instantly, meaning that Terran needs to win every fight handily or else he dies. Nexus cannon killed every all in, or even the common things like 7 marine pressure we saw in WoL. I really thing Protoss is too strong in TvP. Their cheese and all ins are so much more powerful (1 oracle killing 5 marines is simply silly) and a lot of maps are so hard to hold off a simple blink stalker all in, they get free map hacks early game with MSC and hallucination, and now with hellbat nerf chargelot all ins just got so much stronger. I would switch to ZvP, but the vs P matchup looks pretty similar for them as well. Even when 2x as fast, he simply turtles up and can win from 1 a move engagement if your engagement is perfect. Is there a reason they need the fastest and cheapest upgrades? Holy cow. Terran needs to win every engagement because they have to wait for their units to finish instead of waiting for a cooldown? I don't even know how to respond to that, besides "No; you're wrong". Nexus cannon kills every all-in? Maybe it can thwart off some early pressure, but that's far different than all-ins, especially when a stimmed bio army can shoot down a nexus in five seconds flat and completely ignore the nexus cannon. Terran cheese is just as annoying for Protoss. Widow mine drops, bio drops, banshees, hellbat/ BFH drops (the former is just as useful after waiting the two minutes it takes to upgrade them back to their original damage), etc. 1a-ing to victory? You realize that Protoss players use more spellcasters than any other race, right? Maybe splitting isn't as important as it is for Terran, but 1a? Seriously? Just out of curiosity, what league are you in? And also, do you watch professional StarCraft 2 at all? Protoss is pretty damn 1-A once you get a sizable deathball... how are you going to argue against that? lol jesus... With high templar, blink stalkers, and forcefields, probably. Why argue with them? They are part of the "endless terran whine, protoss is 1-A race and zerg is impossible to beat" club. There is nothing that can be said that will convince them otherwise.
::shrugs:: I can see people pointing out the pros and cons of playing any particular race, but it's just annoying when people make it sound like there's no reason why someone who plays Race X doesn't win 100% of his games at every point in time (early, mid, late game).
But then again, this is the designated balance whine thread... it seems most people are just venting rather than taking things particularly seriously.
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On July 11 2013 05:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 05:45 SupLilSon wrote:On July 11 2013 05:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 05:18 Rhaegal wrote:On July 11 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored? Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable. I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways. Protoss is allowed to make more mistakes in late game than Terran, if the trade is even they reinforce instantly, meaning that Terran needs to win every fight handily or else he dies. Nexus cannon killed every all in, or even the common things like 7 marine pressure we saw in WoL. I really thing Protoss is too strong in TvP. Their cheese and all ins are so much more powerful (1 oracle killing 5 marines is simply silly) and a lot of maps are so hard to hold off a simple blink stalker all in, they get free map hacks early game with MSC and hallucination, and now with hellbat nerf chargelot all ins just got so much stronger. I would switch to ZvP, but the vs P matchup looks pretty similar for them as well. Even when 2x as fast, he simply turtles up and can win from 1 a move engagement if your engagement is perfect. Is there a reason they need the fastest and cheapest upgrades? Holy cow. Terran needs to win every engagement because they have to wait for their units to finish instead of waiting for a cooldown? I don't even know how to respond to that, besides "No; you're wrong". Nexus cannon kills every all-in? Maybe it can thwart off some early pressure, but that's far different than all-ins, especially when a stimmed bio army can shoot down a nexus in five seconds flat and completely ignore the nexus cannon. Terran cheese is just as annoying for Protoss. Widow mine drops, bio drops, banshees, hellbat/ BFH drops (the former is just as useful after waiting the two minutes it takes to upgrade them back to their original damage), etc. 1a-ing to victory? You realize that Protoss players use more spellcasters than any other race, right? Maybe splitting isn't as important as it is for Terran, but 1a? Seriously? Just out of curiosity, what league are you in? And also, do you watch professional StarCraft 2 at all? Protoss is pretty damn 1-A once you get a sizable deathball... how are you going to argue against that? lol jesus... With high templar, blink stalkers, and forcefields, probably.
You clearly don't play both P and T...
Not to mention forcefields and blink stalkers are rarely used in the lategame... which is what we are talking about...
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On July 11 2013 05:58 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 05:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 05:45 SupLilSon wrote:On July 11 2013 05:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 05:18 Rhaegal wrote:On July 11 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit? yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored? Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable. I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways. Protoss is allowed to make more mistakes in late game than Terran, if the trade is even they reinforce instantly, meaning that Terran needs to win every fight handily or else he dies. Nexus cannon killed every all in, or even the common things like 7 marine pressure we saw in WoL. I really thing Protoss is too strong in TvP. Their cheese and all ins are so much more powerful (1 oracle killing 5 marines is simply silly) and a lot of maps are so hard to hold off a simple blink stalker all in, they get free map hacks early game with MSC and hallucination, and now with hellbat nerf chargelot all ins just got so much stronger. I would switch to ZvP, but the vs P matchup looks pretty similar for them as well. Even when 2x as fast, he simply turtles up and can win from 1 a move engagement if your engagement is perfect. Is there a reason they need the fastest and cheapest upgrades? Holy cow. Terran needs to win every engagement because they have to wait for their units to finish instead of waiting for a cooldown? I don't even know how to respond to that, besides "No; you're wrong". Nexus cannon kills every all-in? Maybe it can thwart off some early pressure, but that's far different than all-ins, especially when a stimmed bio army can shoot down a nexus in five seconds flat and completely ignore the nexus cannon. Terran cheese is just as annoying for Protoss. Widow mine drops, bio drops, banshees, hellbat/ BFH drops (the former is just as useful after waiting the two minutes it takes to upgrade them back to their original damage), etc. 1a-ing to victory? You realize that Protoss players use more spellcasters than any other race, right? Maybe splitting isn't as important as it is for Terran, but 1a? Seriously? Just out of curiosity, what league are you in? And also, do you watch professional StarCraft 2 at all? Protoss is pretty damn 1-A once you get a sizable deathball... how are you going to argue against that? lol jesus... With high templar, blink stalkers, and forcefields, probably. You clearly don't play both P and T...
Really? That's your response when I point out several spellcasters that Protoss need to control properly (plus the msc), when responding to the assertion that Protoss can just 1a and automatically win?
"Oh yeah, well you don't play Terran!" ???
Regardless of whether or not Terrans need to micro more, that doesn't mean Protoss players don't need to micro at all. It's a complete non sequitur.
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On July 11 2013 05:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:On July 11 2013 05:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 05:45 SupLilSon wrote:On July 11 2013 05:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 05:18 Rhaegal wrote:On July 11 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 03:03 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On July 11 2013 02:09 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
[quote]
yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced. i dont think buffing protoss to get better vs mass ghost/viking will make the matchup better Sorry, are you seriously implying that lategame TvP is Terran-favored? Im implying that Terran is by no means underpowered in TvP lategame just because Flash's Ghost control was horrible against Parting and his gameplan (BCs vs Tempests) more than just questionable. I was just interpreting TheAwesomes post the other of two possible ways. Protoss is allowed to make more mistakes in late game than Terran, if the trade is even they reinforce instantly, meaning that Terran needs to win every fight handily or else he dies. Nexus cannon killed every all in, or even the common things like 7 marine pressure we saw in WoL. I really thing Protoss is too strong in TvP. Their cheese and all ins are so much more powerful (1 oracle killing 5 marines is simply silly) and a lot of maps are so hard to hold off a simple blink stalker all in, they get free map hacks early game with MSC and hallucination, and now with hellbat nerf chargelot all ins just got so much stronger. I would switch to ZvP, but the vs P matchup looks pretty similar for them as well. Even when 2x as fast, he simply turtles up and can win from 1 a move engagement if your engagement is perfect. Is there a reason they need the fastest and cheapest upgrades? Holy cow. Terran needs to win every engagement because they have to wait for their units to finish instead of waiting for a cooldown? I don't even know how to respond to that, besides "No; you're wrong". Nexus cannon kills every all-in? Maybe it can thwart off some early pressure, but that's far different than all-ins, especially when a stimmed bio army can shoot down a nexus in five seconds flat and completely ignore the nexus cannon. Terran cheese is just as annoying for Protoss. Widow mine drops, bio drops, banshees, hellbat/ BFH drops (the former is just as useful after waiting the two minutes it takes to upgrade them back to their original damage), etc. 1a-ing to victory? You realize that Protoss players use more spellcasters than any other race, right? Maybe splitting isn't as important as it is for Terran, but 1a? Seriously? Just out of curiosity, what league are you in? And also, do you watch professional StarCraft 2 at all? Protoss is pretty damn 1-A once you get a sizable deathball... how are you going to argue against that? lol jesus... With high templar, blink stalkers, and forcefields, probably. Why argue with them? They are part of the "endless terran whine, protoss is 1-A race and zerg is impossible to beat" club. There is nothing that can be said that will convince them otherwise. I have always wanted to just go super agro on one of the terran whiners, but it never felt appropriate. Like: “Oh man, it must be nice not to have to deal with any spell casters till the late game. Keeps those hot keys really simple.” Or: “Man, I wish I had two difference units with abilities both linked to the same button. They should make storm and FF on the same, so I never have to tab again” Or: “Man is must be nice to not have to think about how many of each unit to get in the early game. Just build them marines has fast as you” But I never do. It would be fun though. ::shrugs:: I can see people pointing out the pros and cons of playing any particular race, but it's just annoying when people make it sound like there's no reason why someone who plays Race X doesn't win 100% of his games at every point in time (early, mid, late game). But then again, this is the designated balance whine thread... it seems most people are just venting rather than taking things particularly seriously.
I have always wanted to just go super agro on one of the terran whiners, but it never felt approperate
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