EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 549
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11916 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:10 Rhaegal wrote: TvP is already starting to swing in Toss's favor. I'll be back to this thread in a month or so, when the blizzard balance report suggests P is too strong in TvP. I will see you guys then. What are your thoughts on TvP at the end of WoL? I think the core of the disagreement between you fine gentlemen is here. | ||
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Wobaq
United States22 Posts
where my 1-a up a ramp and drop a couple forcefields with 350-400 ping after having my all in scouted and still win bros @? | ||
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ZackAttack
United States884 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:31 plogamer wrote: ITT: Protoss circle-jerk. On topic, if 2 typical lategame armies a-move eachother; the protoss deathball will roll over the terran lol. Your right. We can win without storming. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:04 plogamer wrote: It is not a completely ridiculous notion to compare two typical late-game armies and their performance without micro. It tells us which army is more forgiving if both sides make equal mistakes. The army that is superior without micro will be superior with equivalent micro mistakes. /edit And at higher levels when you can force mistakes by drawing attention with drops, warp-ins; a-move units shine more. Not that Terran is underpowered at the highest levels of play - but Protoss whining about micro in this thread is ridiculous. 1. Two armies clashing with no micro is not the same as each side making a few mistakes. Furthermore, a complete lack of unit control would remove all usefulness of spellcasters from the game, which means you're ignoring entire sections of an army. People aren't going to micro perfectly, but missing one or two EMPs (or storms, etc.) is not the same as sacrificing all your ghosts or high templar (or any other spellcaster). You need to be realistic with your complaint. If two armies are engaging with no micro or spells, then the problem doesn't lie with the units that attack better on a-move. The problem lies with the fact that the players aren't using half their armies properly. 2. Are you seriously complaining that Protoss can distract Terrans with drops? Last time I checked, it was Terran's job to perform multi-pronged harassment and spread the Protoss thin. Terrans can be just as effective with harassment as Protoss can. 3. I see Protoss players responding to Terrans whining about micro. We're not the ones saying that Terrans don't need to micro at all, or that Protoss micro is impossible. Terrans are the ones complaining. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:16 Wobaq wrote: http://i.imgur.com/Xw8RRYZ.jpg where my 1-a up a ramp and drop a couple forcefields with 350-400 ping after having my all in scouted and still win bros @? Seriously? Lucifron has the equivalent of three full bunkers, and Naniwa is up 13 supply (meaning he probably has twice as big an army). Also, forcefielding is not 1a-ing lol | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:04 plogamer wrote: It is not a completely ridiculous notion to compare two typical late-game armies and their performance without micro. It tells us which army is more forgiving if both sides make equal mistakes. The army that is superior without micro will be superior with equivalent micro mistakes. False. You assume that micro applies uniformly and equally to every race when it actually doesn't. For example, Ghosts with zero micro are worthless against Protoss. With a baseline amount of micro, they become the most important unit in the entire Terran army. A-moving your bio-ball and EMPing the Ghosts with everything on one hotkey is better than zero micro, but it still sucks. Now, the real difference between P and T is that if Protoss a-moves everything on 1 hotkey and Storms, he will beat a Terran doing the same with Ghosts+EMP. Conclusion? So fucking what? That says absolutely nothing about higher levels of micro (like when players are good enough to micro different armies in tandem). If P/T are microing their Temps/Ghosts roughly equally, a mistake = loss of Ghost/Temp or missed EMP/Storm. That's equally forgiving to both players. If you lose a Temp/Ghost, you lose an expensive, essential unit. If you miss a Storm, you have one less Storm and are letting more Terran units attack for longer = more damage to your army. If you miss an EMP you have fewer EMPs and are giving the Templar more time to Storm. /edit And at higher levels when you can force mistakes by drawing attention with drops, warp-ins; a-move units shine more. Not that Terran is underpowered at the highest levels of play - but Protoss whining about micro in this thread is ridiculous. Uh...no. A-move units do not "shine more" because most a-moving at high levels of play is awful. I mean, yes, technically speaking any attack with Chargelots is an a-move, but only if you completely ignore pro players choosing to engage in good positions versus bad ones. Similarly, using Stim isn't exactly a massive tax on one's APM. What's more important is positioning properly and knowing when to attack/retreat. Stalkers vs Vikings is pretty back and forth and positioning/micro intensive. I'll grant that Terran should make an effort to spread their units whereas Toss generally does have to (although the extent to which this is necessary depends on the terrain and concave) but Toss players have to spread their Templar pretty deliberately (like pretty far apart, not just spacing them a tad) whereas Terran doesn't need to do that so much with Ghosts. It's even. | ||
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Wobaq
United States22 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Seriously? Lucifron has the equivalent of three full bunkers, and Naniwa is up 13 supply (meaning he probably has twice as big an army). Also, forcefielding is not 1a-ing lol Dropping forcefields is the easiest micro next to 1-Aing in the game. He's up 13 supply because he is doing an all in while lucifron has to spend money on expanding and getting his orbitals as well as some tech since bio units are very weak before stim. Being able to attack up a choke into 5 bunkers after getting scouted out is funny while there is not a single 1 base build terran can do versus protoss. And if his micro was really hard I think he would have suffered from the massive delay he had to play with. I guess delay doesn't matter when all you have to do is 1-A and then F click 3 times. | ||
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:36 Rhaegal wrote: I just get frustrated when I open SC2gears and my 170 epm loses to 75 epm protoss. Why? Zerg players tend to have vastly higher EPM than anyone else because there's more mindless stuff to do like rally Overlords and Spread Creep. That doesn't make them somehow better than a Terran with less EPM... I can't even imagine what you're doing with that 170EPM if you're losing to someone sub-100. Are you moving each Marine individually or something? Or just skipping upgrades? You must be doing something horrible wrong, or that EPM is just you doing random things. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:35 Wobaq wrote: Dropping forcefields is the easiest micro next to 1-Aing in the game. He's up 13 supply because he is doing an all in while lucifron has to spend money on expanding and getting his orbitals as well as some tech since bio units are very weak before stim. Being able to attack up a choke into 5 bunkers after getting scouted out is funny while there is not a single 1 base build terran can do versus protoss. And if his micro was really hard I think he would have suffered from the massive delay he had to play with. I guess delay doesn't matter when all you have to do is 1-A and then F click 3 times. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but just in case you're actually whining... Dropping forcefields might be easy for some people (it's not easy with lag, btw), but it's not as easy as not needing to micro your units at all because they're inside bunkers. Naniwa still had to do something, unlike Lucifron. Or is pulling scvs (late) harder than using spells now? Also, it's three full bunkers worth of units. Not five. Making empty bunkers isn't supposed to deal damage to your opponent. And furthermore, maybe Lucifron shouldn't have been wasting his money on other things, and instead actually make units to stop the all-in. When you see your opponent going all-in, your job is to simply deny the all-in by making a ton of defense. Lucifron had no army. | ||
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Wobaq
United States22 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:38 Shiori wrote: Why? Zerg players tend to have vastly higher EPM than anyone else because there's more mindless stuff to do like rally Overlords and Spread Creep. That doesn't make them somehow better than a Terran with less EPM... I can't even imagine what you're doing with that 170EPM if you're losing to someone sub-100. Are you moving each Marine individually or something? Or just skipping upgrades? You must be doing something horrible wrong, or that EPM is just you doing random things. He's not 1-Aing.  | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:35 Wobaq wrote: Dropping forcefields is the easiest micro next to 1-Aing in the game. He's up 13 supply because he is doing an all in while lucifron has to spend money on expanding and getting his orbitals as well as some tech since bio units are very weak before stim. Being able to attack up a choke into 5 bunkers after getting scouted out is funny while there is not a single 1 base build terran can do versus protoss. And if his micro was really hard I think he would have suffered from the massive delay he had to play with. I guess delay doesn't matter when all you have to do is 1-A and then F click 3 times. Are you fucking kidding me? Naniwa has somewhere are around 38 supply in army, including 2 immortals. Lucifron has 10 supply in units in bunkers. I would fucking hope Naniwa would win that fight, bunkers or not. I don't even think the force fields would have mattered in this one. Seriously, if this is your example of a protoss 1-a army, you need to find one where they don't also have 4 times the supply. Did you know that 160 supply of protoss can also 1-a over 40 suppy of terran? | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:45 aZealot wrote: You're wasting your time, DPB and Plansix. Wobaq has still got too many hankies to get through to listen to reason. I refuse to believe that he can't understand that 38 > 10, like so much greater. | ||
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Wobaq
United States22 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:44 Plansix wrote: Seriously, if this is your example of a protoss 1-a army, you need to find one where they don't also have 4 times the supply. Did you know that 160 supply of protoss can also 1-a over 40 suppy of terran? My real point is that protoss has 5+ 1 base all ins and terran doesn't have a single one and has to scout each one out carefully to know how to defend and even if you scout them out it can still work. Meanwhile protoss can skip scouting and be safe vs everything. Then protoss just needs to turtle until late game to have another massive advantage. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:51 Wobaq wrote: My real point is that protoss has 5+ 1 base all ins and terran doesn't have a single one and has to scout each one out carefully to know how to defend and even if you scout them out it can still work. Meanwhile protoss can skip scouting and be safe vs everything. Then protoss just needs to turtle until late game to have another massive advantage. No, that's not your point. You're just completely changing the topic now because Lucifron didn't properly prepare for Naniwa. And you have no evidence for the rest of your claims, and some of your statements (e.g., "protoss can skip scouting and be safe vs everything") are complete crap. EDIT: I'm done with this thread for now. Your (and others') whining is just so... toxic, unjustified, and hyperbolic. | ||
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Wobaq
United States22 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: No, that's not your point. You're just completely changing the topic now because Lucifron didn't properly prepare for Naniwa. And you have no evidence for the rest of your claims, and some of your statements (e.g., "protoss can skip scouting and be safe vs everything") are complete crap. EDIT: I'm done with this thread for now. Your (and others') whining is just so... toxic, unjustified, and hyperbolic. That game shows how even scouting an all in and reacting with 5 bunkers still leaves you vulnerable. Just imagine how hard it would be to defend if he didn't scout it. Now name a single viable 1 base build terrans can do vs protoss or even early aggression they have do that isn't instantly shut down by nexus cannon. When's the last time you saw a banshee in TvP? | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 11 2013 07:51 Wobaq wrote: My real point is that protoss has 5+ 1 base all ins and terran doesn't have a single one and has to scout each one out carefully to know how to defend and even if you scout them out it can still work. Meanwhile protoss can skip scouting and be safe vs everything. Then protoss just needs to turtle until late game to have another massive advantage. Most Protoss 1 base all-ins generally suck. Just because Naniwa won once against Lucifron (who prepared badly and had almost no units) doesn't mean that that all-in is suddenly super effective. I mean, you can always open with a Helbat drop if you really want. It probably won't work if the Protoss scouts/isn't dumb, but it will win you the game sometimes. Same with Widow Mine drops and stuff. It works sometimes, but macro is better. Shrug. Also if you skip scouting as Protoss you're gonna lose because you're not going to see any drops or army movements. | ||
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