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LSN": This is not directly decisive for match win/lose in most cases ..." = hardly it reaches this stage
"BIG J": it is not only easy but also hardly ever used?" Does not make sense to me
"200 suppl just hinders you from building spine/spore walls"
"you just build statics and rebuild drones these days."
did you realize that you 100% agreed to what I say?
I said it makes no sense/difference to do this sunken/spine mechanic.
"it is like it is not there actually."
On July 08 2013 23:48 Orek wrote:Regardless of the current, past or future balance, the fact that we are discussing "which race has stronger army at 200/200" itself proves how fucked up SC2 design is... When max vs max battle happen so often like in SC2, we have to go through this stupid discussion: race A is better than race B with ultimate army, so race B is screwed or vice versa. I know it's waaaaay to late to complain about this, but 200/200 should have been so rare that it almost never affects balance no matter which race is stronger at that stage. Not that people shouldn't talk about it, but I feel disappointed whenever 200 vs 200 topic is brought up 
I agree to this. Nevertheless it has to be revealed that this endgame state of a game heavily favours terran when both T and Z are in equal position not the other way round as some biased terrans stated before.
Furthermore the fact that terrans dont need to mine anymore gas at a certain point is something that affects not only 200/200 vs 200/200. It basically means when terran loses a 100/100 unit it costs the terran just 100/0 and zerg takes the full loss. Also it allows any gas heavy upgrades, techs and tech switches (like ravens, bc) at any given time without stopping the usual unit production or taking any other trade off. Also of course need less scv for resource mining not even counting mules in.
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On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player
Most Zergs depend on luck for their runbys. Never mind they have MP scouting from overseers, same as hallucinated phoniex. Then in this thread blame Blizzard? Or how about a unit that can teleport entire armies for the low price of 150m 200g (Nydus network) and creep spread which was a cosmetic/building limitation has become a movement buff!!
I also love how some people talk like mothertrucking FLASH is the standard ladder Terran player...
If you think Terran is so IMBA please walk a mile in our shoes first, and at least get diamond before commenting. Play more post less.
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On July 08 2013 22:03 LSN wrote:
Thats just plain wrong. Lategame Terran army is by far superior to zerg lategame army. Hydralisks are a joke vs the tank bio thor medivac raven bc composition as terran has no need to attack and can turtle once being on 4-5 bases with half a dozen of planetaries++. I just remember WCS game dimaga vs taeja where dimaga was quite ahead having 15k mins and taeja being on 5 base mining gas from 3 bases (still had 5k overgas) and dimaga threw wave after wave against him not being able to crush him at any given point of time with exactly the things you mention here (vipers + hydras way too costy and not cost efficient). Zergs win game in midgame or early lategame. When going into endgame both being on "equal" setup terran wins when just staying defensive and doing a little drop here and there. This is also because of the mule mechanic, where you see terrans frequently using 90% of their scvs for attacking at a certain point of time to free up space.
Of course if terran is on 3 base zerg on 6 base in lategame zerg can win.
You just lost all credibility with me. You made sense last few pages. You lost all of it.
You expect two unit composition of hydras and vipers to beat a unit composition of all three tier 3 units from their respective building ????!!! You went full retard, never go full retard.
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some mechanics are broken. Doesnt make imbalance in every game and therefore not for matchup in total. But in given situations yes terran has some op mechanics that can be abused.
go watch acer teamstory cup vortix vs dream now live!
dream plays completely mindless and arrogant, no main wall, no scouting for roach all in, roach all in comes he has no single adaption in his play just hellbats only. Vortix 100% committed in roach play terran has hellbats only and makes more thread to the all-in zerg with hellbats + medivacs than the zerg with complete all-in play at the same time. Cant kill the terran.
It is just ridiculous and everybody can see it.
Terran lost eventually due to arrogant play again going fast raven and barely having units. If he had played a bit more defensively it would have been an easy hold and win for T (he was 3 base vs 2 base after earlygame lol).
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On July 09 2013 00:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 22:03 LSN wrote:
Thats just plain wrong. Lategame Terran army is by far superior to zerg lategame army. Hydralisks are a joke vs the tank bio thor medivac raven bc composition as terran has no need to attack and can turtle once being on 4-5 bases with half a dozen of planetaries++. I just remember WCS game dimaga vs taeja where dimaga was quite ahead having 15k mins and taeja being on 5 base mining gas from 3 bases (still had 5k overgas) and dimaga threw wave after wave against him not being able to crush him at any given point of time with exactly the things you mention here (vipers + hydras way too costy and not cost efficient). Zergs win game in midgame or early lategame. When going into endgame both being on "equal" setup terran wins when just staying defensive and doing a little drop here and there. This is also because of the mule mechanic, where you see terrans frequently using 90% of their scvs for attacking at a certain point of time to free up space.
Of course if terran is on 3 base zerg on 6 base in lategame zerg can win. You just lost all credibility with me. You made sense last few pages. You lost all of it. You expect two unit composition of hydras and vipers to beat a unit composition of all three tier 3 units from their respective building ????!!! You went full retard, never go full retard.
one of the T guys said just build vipers+hydralisks in endgame and it owns everything. I told him that it is again wrong. Plz learn to read.
Why do I lose credibility when I explain a guy what is matter of fact?? oO
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On July 09 2013 00:19 LSN wrote:
some mechanics are broken. Doesnt make imbalance in every game and therefore not for matchup in total. But in given situations yes terran has some op mechanics that can be abused.
Luckily for us, every race is OP. Quick zerg remax sometimes looks totally broken.
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On July 09 2013 00:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Most Zergs depend on luck for their runbys. Never mind they have MP scouting from overseers, same as hallucinated phoniex. Then in this thread blame Blizzard? Or how about a unit that can teleport entire armies for the low price of 150m 200g (Nydus network) and creep spread which was a cosmetic/building limitation has become a movement buff!! I also love how some people talk like mothertrucking FLASH is the standard ladder Terran player... If you think Terran is so IMBA please walk a mile in our shoes first, and at least get diamond before commenting. Play more post less.
Nydus network costs 150m 200g, it creates a nydus worm which also costs 100m and 100g, and is easily stopped by workers. There is a reason that nydus networks are rarely used outside of cheeses/all ins, the same cannot be said for medivac drops. What lsn has been saying I assume, is that in order to harass a terran in the early and mid stages of the game, it takes significant investment to the point of becoming an all in, or putting you massively behind. The opposite is not the case, as medivacs are a key part of pretty much every non mech army, and if you see that the drop wont have any effect you can simply turn around. 0 cost, for potentially game winning damage. A ling runby can be stopped by a supply depot wall, and since you have to build supply depots in most games this really shouldn't be much of a problem.
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On July 09 2013 00:24 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 00:19 LSN wrote:
some mechanics are broken. Doesnt make imbalance in every game and therefore not for matchup in total. But in given situations yes terran has some op mechanics that can be abused.
Luckily for us, every race is OP. Quick zerg remax sometimes looks totally broken.
When was the last time that happened? 9 times out of 10 a quick zerg remax happens after they crush an opposing army, and lose it all because banelings are a one time deal, or other army's have so much aoe its disgusting. A pattern of kill an army and then make it again to win is not so different from kill an army and have 80% of it still alive then a move to win.
I think I should make it clear that I don't think zerg is a weak race by any measure, I just feel the availability of harassment options are horribly skewed in terrans favor, making games not as fun if I random another race.
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Overall terran is somewhat OP. Blizzard needs to nerf the hellbat before doing any further changes. It's hard to say how good the late game is balanced when the early/mid game isn't balanced.
I'd also like blizzard to do something about the SH turtling style in ZvP, because it's boring as fuck to watch. It's gonna be really hard to balance though, as SH/Statsic defense really is the only viable strat zerg has against toss deathball in the late game.
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On July 09 2013 01:11 Dwayn wrote:
Overall terran is somewhat OP. Blizzard needs to nerf the hellbat before doing any further changes. It's hard to say how good the late game is balanced when the early/mid game isn't balanced.
I'd also like blizzard to do something about the SH turtling style in ZvP, because it's boring as fuck to watch. It's gonna be really hard to balance though, as SH/Statsic defense really is the only viable strat zerg has against toss deathball in the late game.
Nerfing swarm hosts is possible so long as the sky toss comp is made harder to get/slightly less good. We saw how good the games between hero and hyun were, less swarm hosts and less sky toss sounds amazing tbh.
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On July 09 2013 01:11 Dwayn wrote:
Overall terran is somewhat OP. Blizzard needs to nerf the hellbat before doing any further changes. It's hard to say how good the late game is balanced when the early/mid game isn't balanced.
You make it seem as if hellbats are broken, when in reality widow mines seemed that way just 2 months ago. Hellbat drops are good, yes, but they can be deflected and made to look silly with some really easy steps. In TvT, a bunker behind each mineral line is great, an alternative being 1 viking and a widow mine by each base to snipe the medivac. Nothing is more cringe-inducing than seeing your only map control be killed by 2 units in less than a second. In PvT, air openings demolish any sort of mech opening. If you are a toss who only gets hellbat dropped, open phoenix just once. It's incredible. My point is that there are responses to a lot of these units/tactics, and instead of being a patchzerg, you should try to outplay your opponent given what you have at your disposal. Btw, the zergs who lose to mass drops evidently haven't played a mass muta/ling counterattack style. That shit is really hard to deal with as the terran player.
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People in this thread are way to busy calling each other "retards", telling each other to "learn to read" and otherwise posting bad to notice that balance is as good as it has been for a very long time. The win rates say the game is looking good (no, Rabiator, you don't need to post your usual "Look beyond the numbers" reply, I know it by heart by now) and we should just let the meta develop slowly. It's no longer the "Zergs roach allin or bust" meta we saw a few weeks ago (was it more?), and Terrans are playing safer again. It will be interesting to see how the game develops.
And if a lucky mine hit decides the game (never really does, usually there are a number of other factors at play such as the Z banking on killing the T in the midgame, siphoning gas from upgrades to banes), you have something to strive towards as that's something better control can improve.
Oh, and one more point, writing a line of text is generally incomprehensible to the reader. Write full sentences, preferably with some additional context in the accompanying paragraph. You'll see that people will understand what you write much more clearly.
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On July 09 2013 00:29 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 00:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Most Zergs depend on luck for their runbys. Never mind they have MP scouting from overseers, same as hallucinated phoniex. Then in this thread blame Blizzard? Or how about a unit that can teleport entire armies for the low price of 150m 200g (Nydus network) and creep spread which was a cosmetic/building limitation has become a movement buff!! I also love how some people talk like mothertrucking FLASH is the standard ladder Terran player... If you think Terran is so IMBA please walk a mile in our shoes first, and at least get diamond before commenting. Play more post less. Nydus network costs 150m 200g, it creates a nydus worm which also costs 100m and 100g, and is easily stopped by workers. There is a reason that nydus networks are rarely used outside of cheeses/all ins, the same cannot be said for medivac drops. What lsn has been saying I assume, is that in order to harass a terran in the early and mid stages of the game, it takes significant investment to the point of becoming an all in, or putting you massively behind. The opposite is not the case, as medivacs are a key part of pretty much every non mech army, and if you see that the drop wont have any effect you can simply turn around. 0 cost, for potentially game winning damage. A ling runby can be stopped by a supply depot wall, and since you have to build supply depots in most games this really shouldn't be much of a problem.
Please stop assuming it is for cheese... The Nydus network is an important part of managing large areas the same way a subway allows a town to grow to a city then a metropolis. Think pylons instantly warping in units except for Zerg even an Ultra can fit in.
Except that Zerg has mobile buildings that have the highest hp, with enough bank a Zerg can turn half of his work force 30 of 70 workers into the toughest combat units in the game with infinite HP from transfuse. Don't talk to me about broken...
Zerg is already top league using only 70% of your unit's potential, don't talk to me about imba.
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On July 09 2013 01:47 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 00:29 bo1b wrote:On July 09 2013 00:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Most Zergs depend on luck for their runbys. Never mind they have MP scouting from overseers, same as hallucinated phoniex. Then in this thread blame Blizzard? Or how about a unit that can teleport entire armies for the low price of 150m 200g (Nydus network) and creep spread which was a cosmetic/building limitation has become a movement buff!! I also love how some people talk like mothertrucking FLASH is the standard ladder Terran player... If you think Terran is so IMBA please walk a mile in our shoes first, and at least get diamond before commenting. Play more post less. Nydus network costs 150m 200g, it creates a nydus worm which also costs 100m and 100g, and is easily stopped by workers. There is a reason that nydus networks are rarely used outside of cheeses/all ins, the same cannot be said for medivac drops. What lsn has been saying I assume, is that in order to harass a terran in the early and mid stages of the game, it takes significant investment to the point of becoming an all in, or putting you massively behind. The opposite is not the case, as medivacs are a key part of pretty much every non mech army, and if you see that the drop wont have any effect you can simply turn around. 0 cost, for potentially game winning damage. A ling runby can be stopped by a supply depot wall, and since you have to build supply depots in most games this really shouldn't be much of a problem. Please stop assuming it is for cheese... The Nydus network is an important part of managing large areas the same way a subway allows a town to grow to a city then a metropolis. Think pylons instantly warping in units except for Zerg even an Ultra can fit in. Except that Zerg has mobile buildings that have the highest hp, with enough bank a Zerg can turn half of his work force 30 of 70 workers into the toughest combat units in the game with infinite HP from transfuse. Don't talk to me about broken... Zerg is already top league using only 70% of your unit's potential, don't talk to me about imba.
65% tvz in proleague, 33% winrate overall for zerg in this current osl. Top league. But I'm sure you know whats up, telling me that nydus isn't a cheese early game with a 300 gas cost minimum. I'm sure that pro players don't know whats up, you should send them an email, and tell them to spend their gas on nydus's instead of roaches/mutas in order to not die to hellbats.
In any event, you can go back to your games where the zerg somehow manage to cover the entire map in creep, turn 40 of their drones into spine crawlers/spore crawlers and still have enough money to produce. Except at that stage of the game they've pretty much lost anyway due to both protoss and terrans end game compositions are better in pretty much every way to zergs.
I'll stick to playing terran or random and face reality that terran is no longer the race with 45% win rates in gsl at the end of wol.
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On July 09 2013 01:55 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 01:47 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 09 2013 00:29 bo1b wrote:On July 09 2013 00:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Most Zergs depend on luck for their runbys. Never mind they have MP scouting from overseers, same as hallucinated phoniex. Then in this thread blame Blizzard? Or how about a unit that can teleport entire armies for the low price of 150m 200g (Nydus network) and creep spread which was a cosmetic/building limitation has become a movement buff!! I also love how some people talk like mothertrucking FLASH is the standard ladder Terran player... If you think Terran is so IMBA please walk a mile in our shoes first, and at least get diamond before commenting. Play more post less. Nydus network costs 150m 200g, it creates a nydus worm which also costs 100m and 100g, and is easily stopped by workers. There is a reason that nydus networks are rarely used outside of cheeses/all ins, the same cannot be said for medivac drops. What lsn has been saying I assume, is that in order to harass a terran in the early and mid stages of the game, it takes significant investment to the point of becoming an all in, or putting you massively behind. The opposite is not the case, as medivacs are a key part of pretty much every non mech army, and if you see that the drop wont have any effect you can simply turn around. 0 cost, for potentially game winning damage. A ling runby can be stopped by a supply depot wall, and since you have to build supply depots in most games this really shouldn't be much of a problem. Please stop assuming it is for cheese... The Nydus network is an important part of managing large areas the same way a subway allows a town to grow to a city then a metropolis. Think pylons instantly warping in units except for Zerg even an Ultra can fit in. Except that Zerg has mobile buildings that have the highest hp, with enough bank a Zerg can turn half of his work force 30 of 70 workers into the toughest combat units in the game with infinite HP from transfuse. Don't talk to me about broken... Zerg is already top league using only 70% of your unit's potential, don't talk to me about imba. 65% tvz in proleague, 33% winrate overall for zerg in this current osl. Top league. But I'm sure you know whats up, telling me that nydus isn't a cheese early game with a 300 gas cost minimum. I'm sure that pro players don't know whats up, you should send them an email, and tell them to spend their gas on nydus's instead of roaches/mutas in order to not die to hellbats. In any event, you can go back to your games where the zerg somehow manage to cover the entire map in creep, turn 40 of their drones into spine crawlers/spore crawlers and still have enough money to produce. Except at that stage of the game they've pretty much lost anyway due to both protoss and terrans end game compositions are better in pretty much every way to zergs. I'll stick to playing terran or random and face reality that terran is no longer the race with 45% win rates in gsl at the end of wol.
Sorry, poor 2/5 trolling.
So, you're saying a Zerg should just sit and bank gas after maxing out on 1/1 roach at 12min instead oh, say spend 200m 300g connecting the base with the macro hatch with the recently spotted 4th or 5th?
That would allow a Zerg to instantly reinforce with 12 larvae worth of units each time and escape/transfer workers safely?
That would make Zerg totally broken!!!
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the final life vs flash was a good example of how it looks like when a zerg plays nearly 100% of his potential and a terran only 70% of his potential ....
one game of the series was a free win for flash due to 1 lucky mine shot indeed. Flash hasn't been looking good the whole series vs life and did alot of mistakes like taking 3rd too early (greedy) and losing all scvs there vs 8 zerglings. Not building any mines one game. Building tanks other game where they were not needed etc. All this (life played 100% of his capabilities there while being the best zerg in the world at this time without doubt) ended up with a close victory for the zerg that played by far better and utilized his own race's strength by far more than flash did in this series. Flash seemed a bit nervous and impatient from what I remember. Just saying in this exact series was one game won by flash due to a single (or few simultanious) lucky mine shots and the at this exact series (not talking about BW) far better player just closely managed to win with an almost flawless performance.
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On July 09 2013 02:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 01:55 bo1b wrote:On July 09 2013 01:47 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 09 2013 00:29 bo1b wrote:On July 09 2013 00:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Most Zergs depend on luck for their runbys. Never mind they have MP scouting from overseers, same as hallucinated phoniex. Then in this thread blame Blizzard? Or how about a unit that can teleport entire armies for the low price of 150m 200g (Nydus network) and creep spread which was a cosmetic/building limitation has become a movement buff!! I also love how some people talk like mothertrucking FLASH is the standard ladder Terran player... If you think Terran is so IMBA please walk a mile in our shoes first, and at least get diamond before commenting. Play more post less. Nydus network costs 150m 200g, it creates a nydus worm which also costs 100m and 100g, and is easily stopped by workers. There is a reason that nydus networks are rarely used outside of cheeses/all ins, the same cannot be said for medivac drops. What lsn has been saying I assume, is that in order to harass a terran in the early and mid stages of the game, it takes significant investment to the point of becoming an all in, or putting you massively behind. The opposite is not the case, as medivacs are a key part of pretty much every non mech army, and if you see that the drop wont have any effect you can simply turn around. 0 cost, for potentially game winning damage. A ling runby can be stopped by a supply depot wall, and since you have to build supply depots in most games this really shouldn't be much of a problem. Please stop assuming it is for cheese... The Nydus network is an important part of managing large areas the same way a subway allows a town to grow to a city then a metropolis. Think pylons instantly warping in units except for Zerg even an Ultra can fit in. Except that Zerg has mobile buildings that have the highest hp, with enough bank a Zerg can turn half of his work force 30 of 70 workers into the toughest combat units in the game with infinite HP from transfuse. Don't talk to me about broken... Zerg is already top league using only 70% of your unit's potential, don't talk to me about imba. 65% tvz in proleague, 33% winrate overall for zerg in this current osl. Top league. But I'm sure you know whats up, telling me that nydus isn't a cheese early game with a 300 gas cost minimum. I'm sure that pro players don't know whats up, you should send them an email, and tell them to spend their gas on nydus's instead of roaches/mutas in order to not die to hellbats. In any event, you can go back to your games where the zerg somehow manage to cover the entire map in creep, turn 40 of their drones into spine crawlers/spore crawlers and still have enough money to produce. Except at that stage of the game they've pretty much lost anyway due to both protoss and terrans end game compositions are better in pretty much every way to zergs. I'll stick to playing terran or random and face reality that terran is no longer the race with 45% win rates in gsl at the end of wol. Sorry, poor 2/5 trolling. So, you're saying a Zerg should just sit and bank gas after maxing out on 1/1 roach at 12min instead oh, say spend 200m 300g connecting the base with the macro hatch with the recently spotted 4th or 5th? That would allow a Zerg to instantly reinforce with 12 larvae worth of units each time and escape/transfer workers safely? That would make Zerg totally broken!!!
I quite often see zergs going for a 4minute 3rd hatch into 12min roach max vs terran. Keep putting words in my mouth though, really gets the point home. I already said before that I don't think zergs necessarily that weak. Guess reading is a little too difficult huh.
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On July 09 2013 02:13 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 09 2013 01:55 bo1b wrote:On July 09 2013 01:47 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 09 2013 00:29 bo1b wrote:On July 09 2013 00:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Most Zergs depend on luck for their runbys. Never mind they have MP scouting from overseers, same as hallucinated phoniex. Then in this thread blame Blizzard? Or how about a unit that can teleport entire armies for the low price of 150m 200g (Nydus network) and creep spread which was a cosmetic/building limitation has become a movement buff!! I also love how some people talk like mothertrucking FLASH is the standard ladder Terran player... If you think Terran is so IMBA please walk a mile in our shoes first, and at least get diamond before commenting. Play more post less. Nydus network costs 150m 200g, it creates a nydus worm which also costs 100m and 100g, and is easily stopped by workers. There is a reason that nydus networks are rarely used outside of cheeses/all ins, the same cannot be said for medivac drops. What lsn has been saying I assume, is that in order to harass a terran in the early and mid stages of the game, it takes significant investment to the point of becoming an all in, or putting you massively behind. The opposite is not the case, as medivacs are a key part of pretty much every non mech army, and if you see that the drop wont have any effect you can simply turn around. 0 cost, for potentially game winning damage. A ling runby can be stopped by a supply depot wall, and since you have to build supply depots in most games this really shouldn't be much of a problem. Please stop assuming it is for cheese... The Nydus network is an important part of managing large areas the same way a subway allows a town to grow to a city then a metropolis. Think pylons instantly warping in units except for Zerg even an Ultra can fit in. Except that Zerg has mobile buildings that have the highest hp, with enough bank a Zerg can turn half of his work force 30 of 70 workers into the toughest combat units in the game with infinite HP from transfuse. Don't talk to me about broken... Zerg is already top league using only 70% of your unit's potential, don't talk to me about imba. 65% tvz in proleague, 33% winrate overall for zerg in this current osl. Top league. But I'm sure you know whats up, telling me that nydus isn't a cheese early game with a 300 gas cost minimum. I'm sure that pro players don't know whats up, you should send them an email, and tell them to spend their gas on nydus's instead of roaches/mutas in order to not die to hellbats. In any event, you can go back to your games where the zerg somehow manage to cover the entire map in creep, turn 40 of their drones into spine crawlers/spore crawlers and still have enough money to produce. Except at that stage of the game they've pretty much lost anyway due to both protoss and terrans end game compositions are better in pretty much every way to zergs. I'll stick to playing terran or random and face reality that terran is no longer the race with 45% win rates in gsl at the end of wol. Sorry, poor 2/5 trolling. So, you're saying a Zerg should just sit and bank gas after maxing out on 1/1 roach at 12min instead oh, say spend 200m 300g connecting the base with the macro hatch with the recently spotted 4th or 5th? That would allow a Zerg to instantly reinforce with 12 larvae worth of units each time and escape/transfer workers safely? That would make Zerg totally broken!!! I quite often see zergs going for a 4minute hatch into 12min roach max vs terran. Keep putting words in my mouth though, really gets the point home. I already said before that I don't think zergs necessarily that weak. Guess reading is a little too difficult huh.
We ARE saying the same thing!
Mechanically, Zerg are a superior race. Fast reinforcement, movement boosts tough combat buildings, bind spell, invisible spell casters (infestor) and it is showing in the results
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Nydus canals in BW were used so Zerg's could run Drones away/reinforce locations.
Zerg's are not using that in SC2 because they feel the creep speed is enough to offset. This is a trade-off.
As for the Nydus Network late game, If it gets a health boost, it will be used.
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The problem with Protoss vs mutalisks are as followed:
-Too fast for the protoss army to keep up. Once protoss leaves their base the mutalisk flock comes in and harasses the base.
-They can escape storms easily and regenerate that lost health in no time.
Solutions would be:
-Make storms do some bonus damage to air units so High Templars in the base can be more effective deterents. In terms of balance, mutalisks 9/10 are the one air unit thats massed. Doing this wouldn't effect other matchups that much. In terms of "logic" storms come from the sky so wouldn't air units be in more danger?
and/or
-Give cannons an upgrade that does splash damage to air. I've seen this idea on the forum and its a really good idea. As of now cannons don't do well against mutalisk flocks because they die so quickly and they are single target.
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EPT
