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On July 08 2013 17:35 bo1b wrote:
One of the main things I absolutely hate about combining the medic and dropship is terran doesn't really have to invest into harass. Medivacs and marines will pretty much always be a part of a bio army and it seems a little ridiculous that I can force my opponent to spend 500+ minerals early-mid game on defense with no real loss on my side of things.
I rather think that this is a good thing. If you have sidekick harassment options, how much will you really use them?
E.g. it's not impossible to build a banshee midgame and go harass, you are probably going to kill some workers. It just doesn't make a lot of sense, as you absolutly don't want banshees for any other reason at that point (unlike early on, when it is a good unit overall for example to defend).
Or how often do we see a zerg going baneling drops in the midgame when he plays ling/bling/muta? Never, because it is a sidekick investment that causes you to deviate from your gameplay greatly - you need to build extra overlords and banelings instead of teching up. It's much more natural to just build more mutalisks if you really want to harass at this point (or build more banelings, so that you can split off your mutalisks more easily).
Or think about the Infestor. Once the gameplay changed away from Infestor usage for battles in HotS, the superpopular burrow harass with ITs (which has not been nerfed) went away completely. It's just not sustainable at this point.
I think we have figured out SC2 to the part where we can safely say that people will not use harassment unless it comes early while they have to tech up anyways and they are able to surprise an opponent with it or unless it is composition units.
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Reading anything Foxxan wrote in this thread is giving me a headache. I'm guessing mods keep out of this thread (keep the loonies contained strategy) so they don't require people to actually write in understandable English with anything resembling comprehensible spelling and grammar.
As for the points, I've been trying to follow them through the muck but all I get is Foxxan writing about us not understanding other people's points and calling people stupid, angry, and whatnot. How about Foxxan just writes a nice clear post (in comprehensible English) which explains the points.
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lol the whole discussion about ling runbies is pointless. Because terran can do helion runbies as well. But it is nothing I would even mention. Protoss can do zealot warpins and attack expansions.
Thats all smth where you fully commit your units. They wont get back out of it and die. Runbies vs 3 base terran on 10 rax get devastated by just one production cycle of these barracks and a single left behind widow mine (about the cost of a single baneling).
There is not even a reason to talk about ling runbys given the fact terran has mines, bunkers, planetaries, wall and behind all this 10+ barracks + some factories producing bio+hellbats+mines. If zerg does a huge ling runby that could overwhelm the terran base while terran army is outside, exactly this terran army can just a-click go zerg base = gg cause zerg has nothing anymore to stop it. Its just noob talking what you do there. Every ling runby that could be game deciding for the zerg is either an all in or a basetrade which is again pointless to discuss cause terran wins basetrades 100% and all-ins is something that terran has without lying 10 times as many as zergs have.
Matter of fact is that terran has 100% of what is needed in the usual army composition and can within seconds redecide if he wants to drop parts of the units and attack with the other parts frontal or use just all units for frontal attacks. Terran has about no to very few commitment for the drops at many situations and periods during the game. E.g. before mutalisks are out, when mutalisks are at the other side of the map or when mutalisk count has been reduced or when zerg does not do muta play at all. Mutalisks can't even be used for what they were originally meant that is harrassing the terran and keeping him in base, as mines + some turrets + barracks production cycle makes it totally useless. This is a little to no investment given the fact that terran is about to be completely safe against any zerg harrass. But I still see you guys complaining about having to build 2-3 turrets in mainbase lol.
And the funny thing is even when mutalisks are out you just have to drop a decent number and combination of units to make enaugh damage so that the zerg has to pull back the whole army and in the meantime 15 rines at another location focus down one expanison within a few seconds.
This is not whining. Its just a stupid game mechanic that instantly wins terrans games with minor zerg mistakes without any big efforts in highest level of play same as well as lucky mine shots at mutalisks or banelings. Any why it is stupid? Because zero commitment, zero additional costs. Just build basic army and go expand upgrade and have the strongest possible force against zerg whille having the strongest possible harrass in game at the same time.
Why does zerg build mutalisks? Surely not to engange bio+mine because it is maybe the worst hardcounter at all for them. You solely build them to stop these drops and maybe once per game fake attack the terran base to get a few seconds of extra time and keep him in base so your other tech/upgrades finnish.
Why does terran build bio+mines+medivacs? To do everything he likes. Defense, offense, harrass, drops, hit and run or do frontal attack.
This is a proven fact and a bad mechanic in this current matchup metagame. I don't see how someone with IQ over 100 could not understand this :D
And after all what I said is some little adjustments. You terran guys cannot even admit these little things poor you.
And lategame terran army by far stronger than lategame zerg. Terran is uncrushable once having 6-8 raven, 4-6bc, few tanks and thors, few mines and the rest op bio+medivac to continue harrassment and drops with it while camping behind 10+ planetary fortress. Uncrushable! At the top of this he can waste all scvs being on a dozen of orbitals to just use SCV for mining gas and mules + 10 scv for mining minerals. And another on top of this terran needs by far less ressources (gas not at all) than the zerg due to its cost efficiency. Equally divided maps wont allow zerg to get the expansions on the terran side because they get crushed instantly due to close distances. If zerg does not win in late midgame or early lategame terran wins the game anyway.
Thats all matter of fact not whining. Just many terrans utilize their stuff not yet at all - taking high risks, being greedy etc. Just look this game flash vs life where he went out having 0 mines on the map, having 0 scouting and 0 mapcontrol being on half the way on 4 base vs a 3 base baneling all-in zerg and then of course lose the game to this 100% commitment do or die play of the zerg. This is how terrans lose games. Zergs lose game cause a widow mine at the cost of about 1 baneling 1shotted 15 banelings at an unlucky situation or they had not enaugh defense vs tripple drops at every single location and if they had enaugh defense they could at best trade off equally vs the terran if he not decides to just boost fly away to come back 15 seconds later while attacking with the main army somewhere else. D:
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On July 08 2013 21:34 LSN wrote:
lol the whole discussion about ling runbies is pointless. Because terran can do helion runbies as well. But it is nothing I would even mention. Protoss can do zealot warpins and attack expansions.
Thats all smth where you fully commit your units. They wont get back out of it and die. Runbies vs 3 base terran on 10 rax get devastated by just one production cycle of these barracks and a single left behind widow mine (about the cost of a single baneling).
There is not even a reason to talk about ling runbys given the fact terran has mines, bunkers, planetaries, wall and behind all this 10+ barracks + some factories producing bio+hellbats+mines. If zerg does a huge ling runby that could overwhelm the terran base while terran army is outside, exactly this terran army can just a-click go zerg base = gg cause zerg has nothing anymore to stop it. Its just noob talking what you do there. Every ling runby that could be game deciding for the zerg is either an all in or a basetrade which is again pointless to discuss cause terran wins basetrades 100% and all-ins is something that terran has without lying 10 times as many as zergs have.
Matter of fact is that terran has 100% of what is needed in the usual army composition and can within seconds redecide if he wants to drop parts of the units and attack with the other parts frontal or use just all units for frontal attacks. Terran has about no to very few commitment for the drops at many situations and periods during the game. E.g. before mutalisks are out, when mutalisks are at the other side of the map or when mutalisk count has been reduced or when zerg does not do muta play at all. This is not whining. Its just a stupid game mechanic that instantly wins terrans games without any big efforts in highest level of play same as lucky mine shot. Any why it is stupid? Because zero commitment, zero additional costs. Just build basic army!
Why does zerg build mutalisks? Surely not to engange bio+mine because it is maybe the worst hardcounter at all for them. You solely build them to stop these drops and maybe once per game fake attack the terran base to get a few seconds of extra time and keep him in base so your other tech/upgrades finnish.
Why does terran build bio+mines+medivacs? To do everything he likes. Defense, offense, harrass, drops, hit and run or do frontal attack.
This is a proven fact and a bad mechanic in this current matchup metagame. I don't see how someone with IQ over 100 could not understand this :D
The problem is that Terrans HAVE TO harrass a Zerg from the point where they have the capability to do so for the simple reason that Zerg are more mobile on the battlefield, develop a MUCH bigger economy if they are left undisturbed for some time AND have the biggest reproduction capacity of all three races. Add to this the "maphack creep spread" and you are FORCED into action as a Terran because there is nothing in the late game that can really scare Zerg. Battlecruisers are a joke with abduct and a lot of Hydras, Thors are soo slow that almost every Zerg unit can run circles around them and Ravens dont really do much for the gas they cost (twice that of an Infestor and yet they dont deal that much more damage).
So I wouldnt describe the Terran choices in such "happy terms" as you do ... Terran only has one real multi-purpose unit and it happens to be their first and cheapest unit. They build it because they must NOT because they think it is fun.
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Thats just plain wrong. Lategame Terran army is by far superior to zerg lategame army. Hydralisks are a joke vs the tank bio thor medivac raven bc composition as terran has no need to attack and can turtle once being on 4-5 bases with half a dozen of planetaries++. I just remember WCS game dimaga vs taeja where dimaga was quite ahead having 15k mins and taeja being on 5 base mining gas from 3 bases (still had 5k overgas) and dimaga threw wave after wave against him not being able to crush him at any given point of time with exactly the things you mention here (vipers + hydras way too costy and not cost efficient). Zergs win game in midgame or early lategame. When going into endgame both being on "equal" setup terran wins when just staying defensive and doing a little drop here and there. This is also because of the mule mechanic, where you see terrans frequently using 90% of their scvs for attacking at a certain point of time to free up space.
Of course if terran is on 3 base zerg on 6 base in lategame zerg can win.
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On July 08 2013 22:03 LSN wrote:
Thats just plain wrong. Lategame Terran army is by far superior to zerg lategame army. Hydralisks are a joke vs the tank bio thor medivac raven bc composition as terran has no need to attack. I just remember WCS game dimaga vs taeja where dimaga was quite ahead having 15k mins and taeja being on 5 base mining gas from 3 bases (still had 5k overgas) and dimaga threw wave after wave against him not being able to crush him at any given point of time with exactly the things you mention here (vipers + hydras way too costy and not cost efficient).
yeah, that composition is really bad against a defensive Terran, but you can beat such a lategame Terran on most maps (so not something something like the old Newkirk or Metropolis) with swarm host, viper, infestor, corruptor, static defense kind of play.
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Anyway guys, this is not about the whole matchup. I tell you the mechanic of ending games simply by standard play + some standard 0 commitment drops once in a while during certain periods of the game or op bio mine shot is in fact imbalanced. Doesnt mean for me the whole matchup is imbalanced. It means that terrans sometimes get kind of free wins. The higher the level the better zergs can prevent this. Doesnt change the fact that if they don't prevent it for a minor mistakes reason once in a while they get an op instant freewin for this. Terran!
This is like if zerg once in a while would win games just by building mutalisks and attacking the terran. It never happens. You recognize it or not? :D
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On July 08 2013 21:53 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 21:34 LSN wrote:
lol the whole discussion about ling runbies is pointless. Because terran can do helion runbies as well. But it is nothing I would even mention. Protoss can do zealot warpins and attack expansions.
Thats all smth where you fully commit your units. They wont get back out of it and die. Runbies vs 3 base terran on 10 rax get devastated by just one production cycle of these barracks and a single left behind widow mine (about the cost of a single baneling).
There is not even a reason to talk about ling runbys given the fact terran has mines, bunkers, planetaries, wall and behind all this 10+ barracks + some factories producing bio+hellbats+mines. If zerg does a huge ling runby that could overwhelm the terran base while terran army is outside, exactly this terran army can just a-click go zerg base = gg cause zerg has nothing anymore to stop it. Its just noob talking what you do there. Every ling runby that could be game deciding for the zerg is either an all in or a basetrade which is again pointless to discuss cause terran wins basetrades 100% and all-ins is something that terran has without lying 10 times as many as zergs have.
Matter of fact is that terran has 100% of what is needed in the usual army composition and can within seconds redecide if he wants to drop parts of the units and attack with the other parts frontal or use just all units for frontal attacks. Terran has about no to very few commitment for the drops at many situations and periods during the game. E.g. before mutalisks are out, when mutalisks are at the other side of the map or when mutalisk count has been reduced or when zerg does not do muta play at all. This is not whining. Its just a stupid game mechanic that instantly wins terrans games without any big efforts in highest level of play same as lucky mine shot. Any why it is stupid? Because zero commitment, zero additional costs. Just build basic army!
Why does zerg build mutalisks? Surely not to engange bio+mine because it is maybe the worst hardcounter at all for them. You solely build them to stop these drops and maybe once per game fake attack the terran base to get a few seconds of extra time and keep him in base so your other tech/upgrades finnish.
Why does terran build bio+mines+medivacs? To do everything he likes. Defense, offense, harrass, drops, hit and run or do frontal attack.
This is a proven fact and a bad mechanic in this current matchup metagame. I don't see how someone with IQ over 100 could not understand this :D The problem is that Terrans HAVE TO harrass a Zerg from the point where they have the capability to do so for the simple reason that Zerg are more mobile on the battlefield, develop a MUCH bigger economy if they are left undisturbed for some time AND have the biggest reproduction capacity of all three races. Add to this the "maphack creep spread" and you are FORCED into action as a Terran because there is nothing in the late game that can really scare Zerg. Battlecruisers are a joke with abduct and a lot of Hydras, Thors are soo slow that almost every Zerg unit can run circles around them and Ravens dont really do much for the gas they cost (twice that of an Infestor and yet they dont deal that much more damage). So I wouldnt describe the Terran choices in such "happy terms" as you do ... Terran only has one real multi-purpose unit and it happens to be their first and cheapest unit. They build it because they must NOT because they think it is fun.
Did you really just say late game terran is worse then late game zerg? rofl. I don't think I've ever lost when it gets to late game vs zerg and I go sky terran.
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On July 08 2013 22:12 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 21:53 Rabiator wrote:On July 08 2013 21:34 LSN wrote:
lol the whole discussion about ling runbies is pointless. Because terran can do helion runbies as well. But it is nothing I would even mention. Protoss can do zealot warpins and attack expansions.
Thats all smth where you fully commit your units. They wont get back out of it and die. Runbies vs 3 base terran on 10 rax get devastated by just one production cycle of these barracks and a single left behind widow mine (about the cost of a single baneling).
There is not even a reason to talk about ling runbys given the fact terran has mines, bunkers, planetaries, wall and behind all this 10+ barracks + some factories producing bio+hellbats+mines. If zerg does a huge ling runby that could overwhelm the terran base while terran army is outside, exactly this terran army can just a-click go zerg base = gg cause zerg has nothing anymore to stop it. Its just noob talking what you do there. Every ling runby that could be game deciding for the zerg is either an all in or a basetrade which is again pointless to discuss cause terran wins basetrades 100% and all-ins is something that terran has without lying 10 times as many as zergs have.
Matter of fact is that terran has 100% of what is needed in the usual army composition and can within seconds redecide if he wants to drop parts of the units and attack with the other parts frontal or use just all units for frontal attacks. Terran has about no to very few commitment for the drops at many situations and periods during the game. E.g. before mutalisks are out, when mutalisks are at the other side of the map or when mutalisk count has been reduced or when zerg does not do muta play at all. This is not whining. Its just a stupid game mechanic that instantly wins terrans games without any big efforts in highest level of play same as lucky mine shot. Any why it is stupid? Because zero commitment, zero additional costs. Just build basic army!
Why does zerg build mutalisks? Surely not to engange bio+mine because it is maybe the worst hardcounter at all for them. You solely build them to stop these drops and maybe once per game fake attack the terran base to get a few seconds of extra time and keep him in base so your other tech/upgrades finnish.
Why does terran build bio+mines+medivacs? To do everything he likes. Defense, offense, harrass, drops, hit and run or do frontal attack.
This is a proven fact and a bad mechanic in this current matchup metagame. I don't see how someone with IQ over 100 could not understand this :D The problem is that Terrans HAVE TO harrass a Zerg from the point where they have the capability to do so for the simple reason that Zerg are more mobile on the battlefield, develop a MUCH bigger economy if they are left undisturbed for some time AND have the biggest reproduction capacity of all three races. Add to this the "maphack creep spread" and you are FORCED into action as a Terran because there is nothing in the late game that can really scare Zerg. Battlecruisers are a joke with abduct and a lot of Hydras, Thors are soo slow that almost every Zerg unit can run circles around them and Ravens dont really do much for the gas they cost (twice that of an Infestor and yet they dont deal that much more damage). So I wouldnt describe the Terran choices in such "happy terms" as you do ... Terran only has one real multi-purpose unit and it happens to be their first and cheapest unit. They build it because they must NOT because they think it is fun. Did you really just say late game terran is worse then late game zerg? rofl. I don't think I've ever lost when it gets to late game vs zerg and I go sky terran.
Sky terran is end-game. He's talking about lategame.
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On July 08 2013 22:15 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 22:12 bo1b wrote:On July 08 2013 21:53 Rabiator wrote:On July 08 2013 21:34 LSN wrote:
lol the whole discussion about ling runbies is pointless. Because terran can do helion runbies as well. But it is nothing I would even mention. Protoss can do zealot warpins and attack expansions.
Thats all smth where you fully commit your units. They wont get back out of it and die. Runbies vs 3 base terran on 10 rax get devastated by just one production cycle of these barracks and a single left behind widow mine (about the cost of a single baneling).
There is not even a reason to talk about ling runbys given the fact terran has mines, bunkers, planetaries, wall and behind all this 10+ barracks + some factories producing bio+hellbats+mines. If zerg does a huge ling runby that could overwhelm the terran base while terran army is outside, exactly this terran army can just a-click go zerg base = gg cause zerg has nothing anymore to stop it. Its just noob talking what you do there. Every ling runby that could be game deciding for the zerg is either an all in or a basetrade which is again pointless to discuss cause terran wins basetrades 100% and all-ins is something that terran has without lying 10 times as many as zergs have.
Matter of fact is that terran has 100% of what is needed in the usual army composition and can within seconds redecide if he wants to drop parts of the units and attack with the other parts frontal or use just all units for frontal attacks. Terran has about no to very few commitment for the drops at many situations and periods during the game. E.g. before mutalisks are out, when mutalisks are at the other side of the map or when mutalisk count has been reduced or when zerg does not do muta play at all. This is not whining. Its just a stupid game mechanic that instantly wins terrans games without any big efforts in highest level of play same as lucky mine shot. Any why it is stupid? Because zero commitment, zero additional costs. Just build basic army!
Why does zerg build mutalisks? Surely not to engange bio+mine because it is maybe the worst hardcounter at all for them. You solely build them to stop these drops and maybe once per game fake attack the terran base to get a few seconds of extra time and keep him in base so your other tech/upgrades finnish.
Why does terran build bio+mines+medivacs? To do everything he likes. Defense, offense, harrass, drops, hit and run or do frontal attack.
This is a proven fact and a bad mechanic in this current matchup metagame. I don't see how someone with IQ over 100 could not understand this :D The problem is that Terrans HAVE TO harrass a Zerg from the point where they have the capability to do so for the simple reason that Zerg are more mobile on the battlefield, develop a MUCH bigger economy if they are left undisturbed for some time AND have the biggest reproduction capacity of all three races. Add to this the "maphack creep spread" and you are FORCED into action as a Terran because there is nothing in the late game that can really scare Zerg. Battlecruisers are a joke with abduct and a lot of Hydras, Thors are soo slow that almost every Zerg unit can run circles around them and Ravens dont really do much for the gas they cost (twice that of an Infestor and yet they dont deal that much more damage). So I wouldnt describe the Terran choices in such "happy terms" as you do ... Terran only has one real multi-purpose unit and it happens to be their first and cheapest unit. They build it because they must NOT because they think it is fun. Did you really just say late game terran is worse then late game zerg? rofl. I don't think I've ever lost when it gets to late game vs zerg and I go sky terran. Sky terran is end-game. He's talking about lategame.
When you bring up bc's and ravens you bring up endgame, what ever the hell that means. If bio-mine is the mid game composition, and bcs + ravens are the end game composition, then what on earth is the late game one? I've never seen someone transition from biomine into mech but I've done and seen people transition from biomine into sky terran.
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yes this was about endgame. He said zerg deathball is alot stronger than terran deatchball and therfore terran needs these early lucky strike game ending mechanics. Which is on the one hand not related to each other and on the other hand complete bullshit.
edit: he also said that ravens cost alot of gas and therefore are cost inefficient :D
I feel like I am talking with noobs on the terran side.
Can anyone come here to take the counter side who is not arguing with wrong facts? (given the fact that 5 base terran utilizes only 6 as out of 10 most of the times).
Can anyone actually realize that there is something broken if one race doesn't need any gas to play? In the beginning it is just unimportant, in the end it is a disadvantage to gather gas (having 5k overgas on 6 gas after 40 minutes of play). Rather kill these scv and build a few BC more.
Can anyone actually recognize that this is a mechanic ZERG actually needed to be competitive in lategame instead of terran?
unbelievable how biased these terrans are. Not even able to admit things that are obviously totally broken and an actual no go in game design.
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On July 08 2013 22:23 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 22:15 kaluro wrote:On July 08 2013 22:12 bo1b wrote:On July 08 2013 21:53 Rabiator wrote:On July 08 2013 21:34 LSN wrote:
lol the whole discussion about ling runbies is pointless. Because terran can do helion runbies as well. But it is nothing I would even mention. Protoss can do zealot warpins and attack expansions.
Thats all smth where you fully commit your units. They wont get back out of it and die. Runbies vs 3 base terran on 10 rax get devastated by just one production cycle of these barracks and a single left behind widow mine (about the cost of a single baneling).
There is not even a reason to talk about ling runbys given the fact terran has mines, bunkers, planetaries, wall and behind all this 10+ barracks + some factories producing bio+hellbats+mines. If zerg does a huge ling runby that could overwhelm the terran base while terran army is outside, exactly this terran army can just a-click go zerg base = gg cause zerg has nothing anymore to stop it. Its just noob talking what you do there. Every ling runby that could be game deciding for the zerg is either an all in or a basetrade which is again pointless to discuss cause terran wins basetrades 100% and all-ins is something that terran has without lying 10 times as many as zergs have.
Matter of fact is that terran has 100% of what is needed in the usual army composition and can within seconds redecide if he wants to drop parts of the units and attack with the other parts frontal or use just all units for frontal attacks. Terran has about no to very few commitment for the drops at many situations and periods during the game. E.g. before mutalisks are out, when mutalisks are at the other side of the map or when mutalisk count has been reduced or when zerg does not do muta play at all. This is not whining. Its just a stupid game mechanic that instantly wins terrans games without any big efforts in highest level of play same as lucky mine shot. Any why it is stupid? Because zero commitment, zero additional costs. Just build basic army!
Why does zerg build mutalisks? Surely not to engange bio+mine because it is maybe the worst hardcounter at all for them. You solely build them to stop these drops and maybe once per game fake attack the terran base to get a few seconds of extra time and keep him in base so your other tech/upgrades finnish.
Why does terran build bio+mines+medivacs? To do everything he likes. Defense, offense, harrass, drops, hit and run or do frontal attack.
This is a proven fact and a bad mechanic in this current matchup metagame. I don't see how someone with IQ over 100 could not understand this :D The problem is that Terrans HAVE TO harrass a Zerg from the point where they have the capability to do so for the simple reason that Zerg are more mobile on the battlefield, develop a MUCH bigger economy if they are left undisturbed for some time AND have the biggest reproduction capacity of all three races. Add to this the "maphack creep spread" and you are FORCED into action as a Terran because there is nothing in the late game that can really scare Zerg. Battlecruisers are a joke with abduct and a lot of Hydras, Thors are soo slow that almost every Zerg unit can run circles around them and Ravens dont really do much for the gas they cost (twice that of an Infestor and yet they dont deal that much more damage). So I wouldnt describe the Terran choices in such "happy terms" as you do ... Terran only has one real multi-purpose unit and it happens to be their first and cheapest unit. They build it because they must NOT because they think it is fun. Did you really just say late game terran is worse then late game zerg? rofl. I don't think I've ever lost when it gets to late game vs zerg and I go sky terran. Sky terran is end-game. He's talking about lategame. When you bring up bc's and ravens you bring up endgame, what ever the hell that means. If bio-mine is the mid game composition, and bcs + ravens are the end game composition, then what on earth is the late game one? I've never seen someone transition from biomine into mech but I've done and seen people transition from biomine into sky terran.
Lategame is tier 3, comes after mid-game. 3/3 and ultralisks etc.
Endgame is when the game stalls, and players are able to get the perfect composition, on many many bases. End-game can be on 4-base, lategame is usually 5-6+
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well as this is not about endgame or lategame, the guy was abviously totally wrong and biased with what he said. Why not talk about this and instead trying to move the focus on this lategame vs endgame thing which is not subject of the actual discussion?
Lets talk about why terrans think it is justified not having to gather gas in late/endgame!
Lets talk about why terrans think why it is justified to have a mechanic that allows them to increase their supply over zerg while having the way stronger compositions?
This is not directly decisive for match win/lose in most cases but some biased terran players said above its whining. In fact it is totally broken race mechanics (both of them) and unluckily for you it favours terran heavily not the other way round. If terran had any gas dump at all in TvZ the endgame would be more balanced as well and not heavily favouring camp terran on 5 base + 6 gas utilizing mins only play that also means that losses of units only count on the mineral side and not for gas. D:
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Changing topics slightly here:
Something I've wondered about with Hellbat drops is what if the turning rate was changed? At the moment they can turn on a dime; curving in a 180 degree arc in a single attack animation. What if they weren't able to turn as quickly? Basically you drop them in a mineral line and youd have to position them properly to get maximum effect, which serves as a bit of a micro drain/reduces their lethality if the player cannot micro properly.
Just spitballing here, but it seems like it could reduce the ease at which they can rip apart worker lines. Furthermore I don't think it would have too pronounced an effect on hellbat incorporation into a regular army, as compositions such as hellbat tank viking or bio hellbat usually involve a bunch of hellbats forming a 'front line' of sorts. Thoughts?
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On July 08 2013 22:43 LSN wrote:
well as this is not about endgame or lategame, the guy was abviously totally wrong and biased with what he said. Why not talk about this and instead trying to move the focus on this lategame vs endgame thing which is not subject of the actual discussion?
In any way the guy said "deathball" what means endgame not once 5 ultralisks pop for zerg (which might start the lategame but who cares).
Lets talk about why terrans think it is justified not having to gather gas in late/endgame!
Lets talk about why terrans think why it is justified to have a mechanic that allows them to increase their supply over zerg while having the way stronger compositions?
This is not directly decisive for match win/lose in most cases but some biased terran players said above its whining. In fact it is totally broken race mechanics (both of them) and unluckily for you it favours terran heavily not the other way round. If terran had any gas dump at all in TvZ the endgame would be more balanced as well and not heavily favouring camp terran on 5 base + 6 gas utilizing mins only play that also means that losses of units only count on the mineral side and not for gas. D:
Even though i´m a zerg i have to point out that zerg can turn drones into spines and spores. This naturally demands that you have the bank to do this, but this kinda zerg´s answer to terrane sacking their scv in the late game. (Highly immobile answer though)
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so this is for free right?
no it is not
this requires no micro right?
no it does require alot of actions to execute this
so once having done this with the spines/spores you have from then on always free additional supply available like the terran?
no you have to repeat it after every little engagement when you lose a few units.
This is a viable mechanic in a fast paced game where actions are all around the map?
no it is not, you usually don't have the time to bother with spines/spores when fighting against heavy attack terran that is on 20 scv + mules only so you can't take advantage from it when it is needed the most.
More units is better for zerg?
yes, but also means more kills for lucky shot mine on average ;D
All questions answered?
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On July 08 2013 23:17 LSN wrote:
so this is for free right?
no it is not
this requires no micro right?
no it does require alot of actions to execute this
so once having done this with the spines/spores you have from then on always free additional supply available like the terran?
no you have to repeat it after every little engagement when you lose a few units.
This is a viable mechanic in a fast paced game where actions are all around the map?
no it is not, you usually don't have the time to bother with spines/spores when fighting against heavily attack terran that is on 20 scv + mules only so you can't take advantage out of it when it is needed the most.
More units is better for zerg?
yes, but also means more kills for lucky shot mine on average ;D
All questions answered?
I´m not saying is it as good as the terranes, but we have to take what we can. It also encourages really passive play style and yes you need a bank to do it. When i see terran sacking scv:s i usually start to shit my pants cause terran is going to became super powerful soon.
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it is like it is not there actually. Once terran has sacked scvs his army is anyway so strong that if you attack it even with 220 supply (which is alot to do 20 spines then cancel and build smth meanwhiles) none of the armies will get completely crushed (terran has 60 oversupply due to reducing scv count from 80 to ~20) and after this you reproduce and your limit is again at 200 while terrans supply limit is at 260. You can basically just go for an all-in attack from there (with these 220 supply) and this is also what most zerg do and then fail.
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On July 08 2013 23:28 LSN wrote:
it is like it is not there actually. Once terran has sacked scvs his army is anyway so strong that if you attack it even with 220 supply (which is alot to do 20 spines then cancel and build smth meanwhiles) none of the armies will get completely crushed (terran has 60 oversupply due to reducing scv count from 80 to ~20) and after this you reproduce and your limit is again at 200 while terrans supply limit is at 260. You can basically just go for an all-in attack from there (with these 220 supply) and this is also what most zerg do and then fail.
dobt talk shit. hardly any TvZs reach such a stage ever.
and starting 20crawlers then caceling them is not only easy, it's hardly ever used these days. you just build statics and rebuild drones these days. going > 200 suppl just hinders you from building spine/spore walls
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Regardless of the current, past or future balance, the fact that we are discussing "which race has stronger army at 200/200" itself proves how fucked up SC2 design is... When max vs max battle happen so often like in SC2, we have to go through this stupid discussion: race A is better than race B with ultimate army, so race B is screwed or vice versa. I know it's waaaaay to late to complain about this, but 200/200 should have been so rare that it almost never affects balance no matter which race is stronger at that stage. Not that people shouldn't talk about it, but I feel disappointed whenever 200 vs 200 topic is brought up 
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EPT
