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On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 00:14 Foxxan wrote:On July 07 2013 23:57 Sissors wrote:On July 07 2013 22:50 LSN wrote:
now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-) Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious. Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg. And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%? I explained why in detail. No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics. But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game. So? There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted. Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg. Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh) As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand? Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close. But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand). But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway? And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening. Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran.
I can, as a random player, use non-all in pressure with any race with the army I already had at that point in time, and deal game ending damage if the opponent doesn't scout and/or defend well. That's just how it works. Once armies are bigger and you don't have map and army awareness, you are vulnerable, and with some bad luck and some failure combined you can get picked apart, lose a base, lose a lot of workers, lose a major part of your army... this isn't exclusive to terran.
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I dont think some people understand what balance is and i don't think blizzard knows either. Balance can be two things, one is that the matchup is 50/50 but only because the other race can prevent op strategies to occur. For example you prevent hell-bats now you win (but that isnt the case now). Or toss prevents zerg from macroing now he wins, or zerg prevents terran from macroing now he wins. And terran prevents protoss to get that death ball now he wins. I dont think tvp is as bad as zvp is in that sense and i think zvt can become as bad as zvp in the future. It's really hard do balance it in a beautiful way but they cant be satisfied with 50/50.
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I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change.
On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 00:14 Foxxan wrote:On July 07 2013 23:57 Sissors wrote:On July 07 2013 22:50 LSN wrote:
now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-) Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious. Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg. And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%? I explained why in detail. No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics. But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game. So? There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted. Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg. Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh) As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand? Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close. But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand). But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway? And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening. Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran.
So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg.
Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable.
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On July 08 2013 02:47 Sissors wrote:I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change. Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 00:14 Foxxan wrote:On July 07 2013 23:57 Sissors wrote:On July 07 2013 22:50 LSN wrote:
now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-) Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious. Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg. And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%? I explained why in detail. No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics. But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game. So? There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted. Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg. Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh) As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand? Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close. But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand). But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway? And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening. Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran. So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg. Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable.
You really can´t compare early medivac harras and ling run-buys. Lifting the depo is free. Not saying that terran is op but just trying to clarify what LSN is trying to say.
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On July 08 2013 01:50 Schroedinger wrote:
My Personal problem is, why even discuss things that won´t change ?
See I total get the discussion about hellbats for example.
But to talk about the core mechanics of a race seriously ?
You can criticize it as much as you want, but those are things that won´t change.
Sadly you are mostly right, because Blizzard says they read forums, but rarely have they adopted anything reasonable ... because most reasonable things go absolutely against their vision of "more speed" and "more kills" or would reveal this vision as total crap.
However ... discussing stuff is never a bad thing - no matter if it changes anything or not - simply because it is an exercise for the brain AND it is a kind of relief for the anger people are gathering about the sorry state of the game.
The core mechanics of the game are a big reason for the bad balance of the game, because super tight formation and unlimited unit selection are the basis for the (universally despised?) deathball to work EASILY. The predecessor BW had its kind of deathball too, but it was for Mutalisks (and Carriers?) only and required a lot of work and most importantly SKILL to pull off. Another part for the existence of deathballs is the gigantic economy and the production speed boosts for the races. If we remind Blizzard about these things they might eventually get wise and change them (I doubt it because they come across totally arrogant), but at least "the truth" is on the out in the open. I dont think anyone will argue against the two reasonings above ... only with the "I hate the deathball" judgement which is the basis for my arguments.
I would also argue that the different production speed boost mechanics for the races put advantages and disadvantages on the races at different times of a game and this isnt a good idea, because it is the core reason behind the "dont let him get there" tactic where Terrans (and to a lesser extent Protoss) HAVE TO harrass Zerg or get swarmed by endlessly reproduced units. I would bet that the "reproduction capabilities" are NEVER figured into any Blizzard unit balancing, but they still have an impact on the game.
So there are quite a lot of clearly visible problems with the "general mechanics", BUT I would also argue that taking out all the stuff would not require a total rebalancing of the game, because you basically lock the game down in an extended mid-game where you only have few units and almost never reach 200 supply. The only real problem is that Blizzard has trained its customers to expect huge armies, so reducing the numbers would be like quitting smoking or drugs or booze ... people would have to readjust their expectations. The game would be just as exciting or maybe even more so, because saving units would become more important.
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On July 07 2013 19:31 ETisME wrote:
^ I think you meant hatch tech because infestor is already lair unit lol
hehe . . no . . lol? not that funny. The infestor is a lair unit off an infestation pit. i see what ur saying tho. . . at the minute you have to wait the build time of the pit, the upgrade(could be nerfed to only effect units after the upgrade cos right now if you time it you build infests at 50% of ups) and then unit (who builds infesters without the fungal ups first?) kinda like the way viper is off the hive and not any other building.
The risk/reward here is you cant get the 50 start energy without the pit so if you scout the drops a comin you have to get the infesters out early to charge a fungal (not really done the math on any of this) but i think it may either.
1. delay the actual drop a few more seconds for either units to come back/move out
2. support the spore
3. have the terran abandon the drop anyways
i dont know though but all i know is that the terran are just far too mobile and once the z economy is gone thats it, while the other 2 races are nicely walled in and turtled up . . if you mount a push, you realise its futile so have to trek back, even with creep he has ctrl-v clicked ur bases with 3 vacs not even caring if he loses them all and you lose everything which is currently keeping u in the game.
oh well, my op!
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On July 07 2013 22:10 Chaggi wrote:Like this gem of an argument Show nested quote +It is the same as in TvP the drop defense of P. Sure pro players in 4 of 5 games have these 5 stalkers back there to fend off the dropships while closely defending the frontal terran aggression with a perfect split of units. But in this 1/5 cases when they have not it is an instant lose and this makes imbalance. Noone says that pro players do not manage to deal with these things in many or most cases. But what if not? Why terran wins instant then cause bio focuses down everything in few seconds and then just drop fly away in medivacs with zero loss without even taking any risks in the process of making the decision to perform this action? :D
... it is for sure imbalance man :p Yeah, okay. It's absolutely imbalanced lings to be so fast, they're going to run into my base because I don't believe in WALLS! NERF LING SPEED. I don't believe in Turrets either, more than 1 DT = OP OP OP Seriously, if you're going to come up with something trollish, at least try. Sorry, but that's just a travesty of a strawman argument, and YOU are the one who appears to be trolling.
Drop defense is not even vaguely comparable to building walls or turrets. Walls and turrets are incorporated into a player's build order every single game. Drop defense is hugely more taxing on the player, involves judgement calls rather than relying on a simple programme, and is especially difficult for a Protoss due to the need to use observers for scouting information. And unlike oracles that the Terrans never stop complaining about, medivac drops can't be shut down with 100 minerals invested in static defence.
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On July 08 2013 03:49 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 22:10 Chaggi wrote:Like this gem of an argument It is the same as in TvP the drop defense of P. Sure pro players in 4 of 5 games have these 5 stalkers back there to fend off the dropships while closely defending the frontal terran aggression with a perfect split of units. But in this 1/5 cases when they have not it is an instant lose and this makes imbalance. Noone says that pro players do not manage to deal with these things in many or most cases. But what if not? Why terran wins instant then cause bio focuses down everything in few seconds and then just drop fly away in medivacs with zero loss without even taking any risks in the process of making the decision to perform this action? :D
... it is for sure imbalance man :p Yeah, okay. It's absolutely imbalanced lings to be so fast, they're going to run into my base because I don't believe in WALLS! NERF LING SPEED. I don't believe in Turrets either, more than 1 DT = OP OP OP Seriously, if you're going to come up with something trollish, at least try. Sorry, but that's just a travesty of a strawman argument, and YOU are the one who appears to be trolling. Drop defense is not even vaguely comparable to building walls or turrets. Walls and turrets are incorporated into a player's build order every single game. Drop defense is hugely more taxing on the player, involves judgement calls rather than relying on a simple programme, and is especially difficult for a Protoss due to the need to use observers for scouting information. And unlike oracles that the Terrans never stop complaining about, medivac drops can't be shut down with 100 minerals invested in static defence.
Don't forget that hte medivacs hypercharge the drop and make an already efficient force much more efficient inside the base. That means it takes a considerable amount of judgement to split off the right amount to kill off the drop force. It's harder to deal with drops than to execute in sc2 by in large.
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On July 08 2013 02:52 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 02:47 Sissors wrote:I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change. On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 00:14 Foxxan wrote:On July 07 2013 23:57 Sissors wrote:On July 07 2013 22:50 LSN wrote:
now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-) Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious. Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg. And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%? I explained why in detail. No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics. But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game. So? There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted. Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg. Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh) As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand? Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close. But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand). But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway? And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening. Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran. So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg. Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable. You really can´t compare early medivac harras and ling run-buys. Lifting the depo is free. Not saying that terran is op but just trying to clarify what LSN is trying to say.
But there is always a difference. If you demand it is exactly the same all races should just be merged into one.
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On July 08 2013 04:15 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 02:52 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 02:47 Sissors wrote:I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change. On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 00:14 Foxxan wrote:On July 07 2013 23:57 Sissors wrote:On July 07 2013 22:50 LSN wrote:
now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-) Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious. Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg. And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%? I explained why in detail. No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics. But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game. So? There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted. Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg. Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh) As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand? Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close. But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand). But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway? And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening. Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran. So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg. Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable. You really can´t compare early medivac harras and ling run-buys. Lifting the depo is free. Not saying that terran is op but just trying to clarify what LSN is trying to say. But there is always a difference. If you demand it is exactly the same all races should just be merged into one.
True but all races should not have an option that is simply superior to those that the other races have imo.
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On July 08 2013 04:44 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:15 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 02:52 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 02:47 Sissors wrote:I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change. On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 00:14 Foxxan wrote:On July 07 2013 23:57 Sissors wrote:On July 07 2013 22:50 LSN wrote:
now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-) Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious. Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg. And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%? I explained why in detail. No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics. But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game. So? There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted. Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg. Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh) As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand? Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close. But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand). But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway? And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening. Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran. So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg. Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable. You really can´t compare early medivac harras and ling run-buys. Lifting the depo is free. Not saying that terran is op but just trying to clarify what LSN is trying to say. But there is always a difference. If you demand it is exactly the same all races should just be merged into one. True but all races should not have an option that is simply superior to those that the other races have imo.
Duh, who would disagree that there shouldn't be a superior race in SC2. But the arguments for Terran having superior options here are complete nonsense.
/edit
But rather than discuss straightforward, you just play lawyer and go around the issue. What is it about Terran that you think is superior?
Your argument about supply depots being part of the regular Terran macro is nonsense. Because having units in position for drop defense is also part of the regular macro for other races. You do have to build units anyways, you know, might as well place them in drop location with a couple cannons to support.
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But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it?
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On July 08 2013 04:56 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:44 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 04:15 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 02:52 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 02:47 Sissors wrote:I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change. On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 00:14 Foxxan wrote:On July 07 2013 23:57 Sissors wrote:On July 07 2013 22:50 LSN wrote:
now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-) Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious. Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg. And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%? I explained why in detail. No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics. But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game. So? There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted. Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg. Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh) As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand? Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close. But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand). But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway? And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening. Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran. So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg. Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable. You really can´t compare early medivac harras and ling run-buys. Lifting the depo is free. Not saying that terran is op but just trying to clarify what LSN is trying to say. But there is always a difference. If you demand it is exactly the same all races should just be merged into one. True but all races should not have an option that is simply superior to those that the other races have imo. Duh, who would disagree that there shouldn't be a superior race in SC2. But the arguments for Terran having superior options here are complete nonsense. /edit But rather than discuss straightforward, you just play lawyer and go around the issue. What is it about Terran that you think is superior? Your argument about supply depots being part of the regular Terran macro is nonsense. Because having units in position for drop defense is also part of the regular macro for other races. You do have to build units anyways, you know, might as well place them in drop location with a couple cannons to support.
I suggest u read one page back, and u will understand read all things
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Winrates in the pro scene are fairly evenly distributed between the races, but I think protoss is doing slightly better than the others recently. A nerf to terran would require terran to get a buff too, just like Strelok has said.
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On July 08 2013 05:47 Thor.Rush wrote:
Winrates in the pro scene are fairly evenly distributed between the races, but I think protoss is doing slightly better than the others recently. A nerf to terran would require terran to get a buff too, just like Strelok has said.
Any form of changes for balance reasons would be quite unwarranted at this point.
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On July 08 2013 05:07 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:56 plogamer wrote:On July 08 2013 04:44 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 04:15 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 02:52 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 02:47 Sissors wrote:I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change. On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 00:14 Foxxan wrote:On July 07 2013 23:57 Sissors wrote:
[quote]
Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious.
[quote]
So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg.
And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%?
[quote]
No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics.
[quote]
So? There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted.
Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg. Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh) As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand? Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close. But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand). But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway? And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening. Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran. So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg. Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable. You really can´t compare early medivac harras and ling run-buys. Lifting the depo is free. Not saying that terran is op but just trying to clarify what LSN is trying to say. But there is always a difference. If you demand it is exactly the same all races should just be merged into one. True but all races should not have an option that is simply superior to those that the other races have imo. Duh, who would disagree that there shouldn't be a superior race in SC2. But the arguments for Terran having superior options here are complete nonsense. /edit But rather than discuss straightforward, you just play lawyer and go around the issue. What is it about Terran that you think is superior? Your argument about supply depots being part of the regular Terran macro is nonsense. Because having units in position for drop defense is also part of the regular macro for other races. You do have to build units anyways, you know, might as well place them in drop location with a couple cannons to support. I suggest u read one page back, and u will understand read all things
Those were pretty much walls of text complaining about every positive terran mechanic while ignoring all the positive mechanics of zerg and toss.
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
No I don't see it. Why can't ling runbys happen everytime? Many zerg opponents certainly try to.
To me this is just changing your definitions until you can finally have enough constraints to show why drops are bad and ling runbys aren't.
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On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it?
How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage.
You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky
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On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky
That's two really bad examples, as soulkey isn't really known for playing an aggressive style that involves ling runbies (I'm no expert on Soulkey games, but I can't remember any ling runbies from the GSL finals nor any other ZvTs with him that made him look like an aggressive player) and Life is absoultly getting crushed these days. At this point Life probably shouldn't even be considered Code S level anymore (Startale isn't even using him in GSTL at this point let along use him as Ace player or something like that... and his results in GSTL and WCS and MLG have been really underwhelming).
Exagerating on that, the zergs that have been known for very aggressive macro styles in ZvT - e.g. Life, Leenock, DRG - are getting slaugthered at this point and the best Kespa Zergs (and probably best zergs around these days) - RoRo, Soulkey - seem to favor defensive macro or allins in this matchup.
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On July 08 2013 07:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky That's two really bad examples, as soulkey isn't really known for playing an aggressive style that involves ling runbies (I'm no expert on Soulkey games, but I can't remember any ling runbies from the GSL finals nor any other ZvTs with him that made him look like an aggressive player) and Life is absoultly getting crushed these days. At this point Life probably shouldn't even be considered Code S level anymore (Startale isn't even using him in GSTL at this point let along use him as Ace player or something like that... and his results in GSTL and WCS and MLG have been really underwhelming). Exagerating on that, the zergs that have been known for very aggressive macro styles in ZvT - e.g. Life, Leenock, DRG - are getting slaugthered at this point and the best Kespa Zergs (and probably best zergs around these days) - RoRo, Soulkey - seem to favor defensive macro or allins in this matchup.
Just cause Life isn't dominant now doesn't mean his tactics are bad. Ling runbys are absolutely essential in TvZ and they can do just as much damage as drops with a similar commitment. As far as Soulkey goes, his games vs Innovation in Proleague were him basically backstabbing with lings or banelings when 2/2 kicked in for Innovation (this starting his endless rally until 3/3 when the Zerg would just die) which would stop innovations momentum if Even 1 hit a good number of scvs and he'd win. This entire point of whining about balance based on something you could've done, but for some reason chose not to do is retarded.
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On July 08 2013 05:53 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 05:07 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 04:56 plogamer wrote:On July 08 2013 04:44 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 04:15 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 02:52 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 02:47 Sissors wrote:I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change. On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 00:14 Foxxan wrote:
[quote]
Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference
and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh)
As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand? Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close. But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand). But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway? And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening. Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran. So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg. Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable. You really can´t compare early medivac harras and ling run-buys. Lifting the depo is free. Not saying that terran is op but just trying to clarify what LSN is trying to say. But there is always a difference. If you demand it is exactly the same all races should just be merged into one. True but all races should not have an option that is simply superior to those that the other races have imo. Duh, who would disagree that there shouldn't be a superior race in SC2. But the arguments for Terran having superior options here are complete nonsense. /edit But rather than discuss straightforward, you just play lawyer and go around the issue. What is it about Terran that you think is superior? Your argument about supply depots being part of the regular Terran macro is nonsense. Because having units in position for drop defense is also part of the regular macro for other races. You do have to build units anyways, you know, might as well place them in drop location with a couple cannons to support. I suggest u read one page back, and u will understand read all things Those were pretty much walls of text complaining about every positive terran mechanic while ignoring all the positive mechanics of zerg and toss. Show nested quote +
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
No I don't see it. Why can't ling runbys happen everytime? Many zerg opponents certainly try to. To me this is just changing your definitions until you can finally have enough constraints to show why drops are bad and ling runbys aren't.
Succinct.
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EPT
