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On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky
No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything
Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that
Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long
While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference
A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player
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On July 08 2013 05:53 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 05:07 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 04:56 plogamer wrote:On July 08 2013 04:44 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 04:15 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 02:52 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 02:47 Sissors wrote:I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change. On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 00:14 Foxxan wrote:
[quote]
Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference
and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh)
As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand? Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close. But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand). But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway? And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening. Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran. So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg. Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable. You really can´t compare early medivac harras and ling run-buys. Lifting the depo is free. Not saying that terran is op but just trying to clarify what LSN is trying to say. But there is always a difference. If you demand it is exactly the same all races should just be merged into one. True but all races should not have an option that is simply superior to those that the other races have imo. Duh, who would disagree that there shouldn't be a superior race in SC2. But the arguments for Terran having superior options here are complete nonsense. /edit But rather than discuss straightforward, you just play lawyer and go around the issue. What is it about Terran that you think is superior? Your argument about supply depots being part of the regular Terran macro is nonsense. Because having units in position for drop defense is also part of the regular macro for other races. You do have to build units anyways, you know, might as well place them in drop location with a couple cannons to support. I suggest u read one page back, and u will understand read all things Those were pretty much walls of text complaining about every positive terran mechanic while ignoring all the positive mechanics of zerg and toss. Show nested quote +
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
No I don't see it. Why can't ling runbys happen everytime? Many zerg opponents certainly try to. To me this is just changing your definitions until you can finally have enough constraints to show why drops are bad and ling runbys aren't.
I dont understand this logic, could you go furter u say its whining the things we say about terran while i see it far from it
We mention bio/mine/medivac is to costeffecient against zerg muta/Ling/bane, how is this whining?
How is this good for the game in the long run?
Wouldnt it be better if they were even?
I feel terran is the most complete race right now, I feel its unfair some parts not balance talk but mechanic part
We said terran can do alot of micro while the other races cant,
terran is easier then the other races, instead of looking it as whining try to say "why u feel this" and we have said why we feel it
I feel its very hard to reach u even a tiny bit
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On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player
So you shoot down my point because of a small timing issue? I want to medical drop at 5 minutes but I can't get medivacs, guess dropping isn't good! You can depend on runbys all game long too, maybe it comes out a bit later but accomplishes the same function as a drop. Your logic doesn't even make sense.
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On July 08 2013 09:35 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 05:53 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 05:07 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 04:56 plogamer wrote:On July 08 2013 04:44 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 04:15 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 02:52 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 02:47 Sissors wrote:I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change. On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:
[quote]
Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close.
But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand).
But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway?
And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening. Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran. So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg. Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable. You really can´t compare early medivac harras and ling run-buys. Lifting the depo is free. Not saying that terran is op but just trying to clarify what LSN is trying to say. But there is always a difference. If you demand it is exactly the same all races should just be merged into one. True but all races should not have an option that is simply superior to those that the other races have imo. Duh, who would disagree that there shouldn't be a superior race in SC2. But the arguments for Terran having superior options here are complete nonsense. /edit But rather than discuss straightforward, you just play lawyer and go around the issue. What is it about Terran that you think is superior? Your argument about supply depots being part of the regular Terran macro is nonsense. Because having units in position for drop defense is also part of the regular macro for other races. You do have to build units anyways, you know, might as well place them in drop location with a couple cannons to support. I suggest u read one page back, and u will understand read all things Those were pretty much walls of text complaining about every positive terran mechanic while ignoring all the positive mechanics of zerg and toss.
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
No I don't see it. Why can't ling runbys happen everytime? Many zerg opponents certainly try to. To me this is just changing your definitions until you can finally have enough constraints to show why drops are bad and ling runbys aren't. I dont understand this logic, could you go furter u say its whining the things we say about terran while i see it far from it We mention bio/mine/medivac is to costeffecient against zerg muta/Ling/bane, how is this whining? How is this good for the game in the long run? Wouldnt it be better if they were even? I feel terran is the most complete race right now, I feel its unfair some parts not balance talk but mechanic part We said terran can do alot of micro while the other races cant, terran is easier then the other races, instead of looking it as whining try to say "why u feel this" and we have said why we feel it I feel its very hard to reach u even a tiny bit
You don't understand the fact that Terran, while it is the most complete, requires mechanics that other races don't need. Other races have stuff that terrans don't have to care that much about.
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On July 08 2013 04:56 plogamer wrote:
Your argument about supply depots being part of the regular Terran macro is nonsense. Because having units in position for drop defense is also part of the regular macro for other races. You do have to build units anyways, you know, might as well place them in drop location with a couple cannons to support. But that's what I was objecting to. Either you have no experience playing against Terran or you're being wilfully obtuse about the difficulty of stopping drops.
Stopping drops is not just a simple procedure that you follow every game. It requires judgement calls. You can't merely leave 5 stalkers behind, because early on you need the 5 stalkers to defend yourself against a push. So you need to split your army. Terrans a league above you will take advantage of your limited ability to split army, and they will get free wins.
If anything is broken in this game, it's Terran's ability to win matches by merely queuing a drop. Compare that to Protoss warp prism harassing Zerg an entire game to take down the odd spire or handful of drones.
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On July 08 2013 09:49 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player So you shoot down my point because of a small timing issue? I want to medical drop at 5 minutes but I can't get medivacs, guess dropping isn't good! You can depend on runbys all game long too, maybe it comes out a bit later but accomplishes the same function as a drop. Your logic doesn't even make sense.
"but none of them have any basis in fact"
So i stated a fact at 10:00 minute mark
lol dude you are kinda annoying tbh
you want to medivac to drop at 5minutes but u cant because why?
Because the drop will be cost ineffecient? What? You said u 'cant' drop?!
Its impossible to discuss anything with you
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On July 08 2013 09:53 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 09:35 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 05:53 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 05:07 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 04:56 plogamer wrote:On July 08 2013 04:44 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 04:15 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 02:52 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 02:47 Sissors wrote:I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change. On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:
[quote]
Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran. So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg. Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable. You really can´t compare early medivac harras and ling run-buys. Lifting the depo is free. Not saying that terran is op but just trying to clarify what LSN is trying to say. But there is always a difference. If you demand it is exactly the same all races should just be merged into one. True but all races should not have an option that is simply superior to those that the other races have imo. Duh, who would disagree that there shouldn't be a superior race in SC2. But the arguments for Terran having superior options here are complete nonsense. /edit But rather than discuss straightforward, you just play lawyer and go around the issue. What is it about Terran that you think is superior? Your argument about supply depots being part of the regular Terran macro is nonsense. Because having units in position for drop defense is also part of the regular macro for other races. You do have to build units anyways, you know, might as well place them in drop location with a couple cannons to support. I suggest u read one page back, and u will understand read all things Those were pretty much walls of text complaining about every positive terran mechanic while ignoring all the positive mechanics of zerg and toss.
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
No I don't see it. Why can't ling runbys happen everytime? Many zerg opponents certainly try to. To me this is just changing your definitions until you can finally have enough constraints to show why drops are bad and ling runbys aren't. I dont understand this logic, could you go furter u say its whining the things we say about terran while i see it far from it We mention bio/mine/medivac is to costeffecient against zerg muta/Ling/bane, how is this whining? How is this good for the game in the long run? Wouldnt it be better if they were even? I feel terran is the most complete race right now, I feel its unfair some parts not balance talk but mechanic part We said terran can do alot of micro while the other races cant, terran is easier then the other races, instead of looking it as whining try to say "why u feel this" and we have said why we feel it I feel its very hard to reach u even a tiny bit You don't understand the fact that Terran, while it is the most complete, requires mechanics that other races don't need. Other races have stuff that terrans don't have to care that much about.
I dont understand that?, ofcourse i understand it
Thats not even the point, you miss the point man by miles, why are you in this thread btw if u dont wanna discuss things
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On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player
Terrans can only drop because Zergs DO NOT BUILD SUFFICIENT DEFENSE .... like Spore Crawlers and Spine Crawlers or maybe a handful of patrolling Mutalisks / Corruptors to prevent that. You seem to be under the delusion that the Terran defense comes for free, which it doesnt. Terrans HAVE TO wall off and even that isnt a guarantee since they can lower the depot and then the wall is open to every runby if they arent quick enough to close it. Oh and Terrans dont have any static defenses to place anywhere against such runbys, their units are slow and neither can they warp in stuff to defend in a few seconds, so they HAVE TO WALL OFF. [Please dont bother listing the Planetary Fortress, because you cant cover a base with that. Oh and bunkers need units inside them, which reduces your army size ... that isnt a static defense.]
Maybe you should do the same as the Terran and DROP YOUR HARRASSMENT UNITS ... its just one research click and a few resources. Just because running into a base is the easiest option doesnt mean there is no other option. If the Terran doesnt expect it the damage will be bigger AND after the first drop the threat will make him paranoid.
You could also use a Nydus worm or maybe even a drop (with cheap Zerglings) followed by a Nydus (with the expensive stuff but the worm is guarded by the Lings). I havent seen Zergs use drops in months .... but is that the fault of the Terrans? No. It is the fault of the lazy Zergs who want the cheap way to victory. Baneling bombing runs seem to be "sooo 2011", but are they less effective nowaday?
tl;dr
Stop whining and use every tool at your disposal. No game is fun if winning is too easy.
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On July 08 2013 10:05 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 04:56 plogamer wrote:
Your argument about supply depots being part of the regular Terran macro is nonsense. Because having units in position for drop defense is also part of the regular macro for other races. You do have to build units anyways, you know, might as well place them in drop location with a couple cannons to support. But that's what I was objecting to. Either you have no experience playing against Terran or you're being wilfully obtuse about the difficulty of stopping drops. Stopping drops is not just a simple procedure that you follow every game. It requires judgement calls. You can't merely leave 5 stalkers behind, because early on you need the 5 stalkers to defend yourself against a push. So you need to split your army. Terrans a league above you will take advantage of your limited ability to split army, and they will get free wins. If anything is broken in this game, it's Terran's ability to win matches by merely queuing a drop. Compare that to Protoss warp prism harassing Zerg an entire game to take down the odd spire or handful of drones.
Stopping drops is as hard as raising depots in TvX matchups. Terran army is balanced around drops. Terran deathball is the weakest for that reason!
If you spare the correct amount of army to defend drops, ie. a couple of blink stalkers with cannons blocking most drop-locations, drops get shut down hard. If a stupid Terran still insists on dropping, they lose.
You are acting on the assumption that Terran main-army is equal to that of a Protoss and Zerg. In the mid to late-game, Terran main army is paltry and weak in comparsion.
Seriously though, Terrans don't win matches by merely queuing drops. Maybe at lower levels. However, at lower levels a Zerg can a-move and camp production facilites if a Terran commits army supply in drops.
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On July 08 2013 13:58 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Terrans can only drop because Zergs DO NOT BUILD SUFFICIENT DEFENSE .... like Spore Crawlers and Spine Crawlers or maybe a handful of patrolling Mutalisks / Corruptors to prevent that. You seem to be under the delusion that the Terran defense comes for free, which it doesnt. Terrans HAVE TO wall off and even that isnt a guarantee since they can lower the depot and then the wall is open to every runby if they arent quick enough to close it. Oh and Terrans dont have any static defenses to place anywhere against such runbys, their units are slow and neither can they warp in stuff to defend in a few seconds, so they HAVE TO WALL OFF. [Please dont bother listing the Planetary Fortress, because you cant cover a base with that. Oh and bunkers need units inside them, which reduces your army size ... that isnt a static defense.] Maybe you should do the same as the Terran and DROP YOUR HARRASSMENT UNITS ... its just one research click and a few resources. Just because running into a base is the easiest option doesnt mean there is no other option. If the Terran doesnt expect it the damage will be bigger AND after the first drop the threat will make him paranoid. You could also use a Nydus worm or maybe even a drop (with cheap Zerglings) followed by a Nydus (with the expensive stuff but the worm is guarded by the Lings). I havent seen Zergs use drops in months .... but is that the fault of the Terrans? No. It is the fault of the lazy Zergs who want the cheap way to victory. Baneling bombing runs seem to be "sooo 2011", but are they less effective nowaday? tl;dr Stop whining and use every tool at your disposal. No game is fun if winning is too easy.
Dude, you have totally missed the entire point please read more carefully 1-2 pages back
and come again,thx for the coffey
edit: you dont even have to read 1-2 pages back, it should be enough to read the comment u quoted, i dont get u rabiator seems u are mad all the time when u write stuff
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On July 08 2013 14:53 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 13:58 Rabiator wrote:On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Terrans can only drop because Zergs DO NOT BUILD SUFFICIENT DEFENSE .... like Spore Crawlers and Spine Crawlers or maybe a handful of patrolling Mutalisks / Corruptors to prevent that. You seem to be under the delusion that the Terran defense comes for free, which it doesnt. Terrans HAVE TO wall off and even that isnt a guarantee since they can lower the depot and then the wall is open to every runby if they arent quick enough to close it. Oh and Terrans dont have any static defenses to place anywhere against such runbys, their units are slow and neither can they warp in stuff to defend in a few seconds, so they HAVE TO WALL OFF. [Please dont bother listing the Planetary Fortress, because you cant cover a base with that. Oh and bunkers need units inside them, which reduces your army size ... that isnt a static defense.] Maybe you should do the same as the Terran and DROP YOUR HARRASSMENT UNITS ... its just one research click and a few resources. Just because running into a base is the easiest option doesnt mean there is no other option. If the Terran doesnt expect it the damage will be bigger AND after the first drop the threat will make him paranoid. You could also use a Nydus worm or maybe even a drop (with cheap Zerglings) followed by a Nydus (with the expensive stuff but the worm is guarded by the Lings). I havent seen Zergs use drops in months .... but is that the fault of the Terrans? No. It is the fault of the lazy Zergs who want the cheap way to victory. Baneling bombing runs seem to be "sooo 2011", but are they less effective nowaday? tl;dr Stop whining and use every tool at your disposal. No game is fun if winning is too easy. Dude, you have totally missed the entire point please read more carefully 1-2 pages back and come again,thx for the coffey edit: you dont even have to read 1-2 pages back, it should be enough to read the comment u quoted, i dont get u rabiator seems u are mad all the time when u write stuff
All I need to read is this clear WHINE ...
No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything
Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential
Its kinda like a red flower whining "why cant I be a yellow flower too?" ... entirely pointless, because in this case the Terran "counter whine" would be "I cant make runbys into your base because your army will surround me wayy before I get there due to the maphax creep info and the fact that your lings are wayyy faster than my units". Zerg can make runbys, Terrans can have (need) drops. No need to whine about it in a "blue is better than red" style.
P.S.:
+ Show Spoiler +- I get mad at people who dont bother writing "you" and instead abbreviate it with "u" ... we arent bros ...
- I get irritated by people who dont bother with uppercase, because that clearly makes a sentence more readable ...
- I get mad when people whine about racially different styles where one race has an advantage but the other one covets it because "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" and the own advantages are completely ignored ...
- I get annoyed by people who fail at quoting ... and your first sentence in your "original post" (which I quoted) is "But your comparasions are out of hand" ... WHOSE comparisons? WHICH comparisons? I am not in your head to know that and since there are always (at least) two sides in a discussion it could be the "pro" side or the "contra" side ... so please stop with the "Dude you have totally missed the entire point because I was too lazy to quote anything" stuff ... even if I read 1-2 pages earlier I still wont know what you mean.
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On July 08 2013 09:35 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 05:53 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 05:07 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 04:56 plogamer wrote:On July 08 2013 04:44 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 04:15 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 02:52 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 02:47 Sissors wrote:I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change. On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:
[quote]
Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close.
But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand).
But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway?
And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening. Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran. So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg. Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable. You really can´t compare early medivac harras and ling run-buys. Lifting the depo is free. Not saying that terran is op but just trying to clarify what LSN is trying to say. But there is always a difference. If you demand it is exactly the same all races should just be merged into one. True but all races should not have an option that is simply superior to those that the other races have imo. Duh, who would disagree that there shouldn't be a superior race in SC2. But the arguments for Terran having superior options here are complete nonsense. /edit But rather than discuss straightforward, you just play lawyer and go around the issue. What is it about Terran that you think is superior? Your argument about supply depots being part of the regular Terran macro is nonsense. Because having units in position for drop defense is also part of the regular macro for other races. You do have to build units anyways, you know, might as well place them in drop location with a couple cannons to support. I suggest u read one page back, and u will understand read all things Those were pretty much walls of text complaining about every positive terran mechanic while ignoring all the positive mechanics of zerg and toss.
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
No I don't see it. Why can't ling runbys happen everytime? Many zerg opponents certainly try to. To me this is just changing your definitions until you can finally have enough constraints to show why drops are bad and ling runbys aren't. I dont understand this logic, could you go furter u say its whining the things we say about terran while i see it far from it We mention bio/mine/medivac is to costeffecient against zerg muta/Ling/bane, how is this whining? How is this good for the game in the long run? Wouldnt it be better if they were even?
If that was what those posts were saying I wouldn't complain. I also wouldn't necesarily agree, but I could see it as a possibly valid complaint. However most of the posts there were talking about pretty much every terran mechanic being unfair, from mules to gas cost of bio army to even freaking lift off ability. It had nothing whatsoever to do with bio/mine medivac vs muta/ling, it was just whining over basic mechanics.
And then we had that those walls of text could apparently be summarized by that a terran can win the game due to one mistake of his opponent, with the terran not going all-in, and that was unfair. It was next pointed out that there are also plenty of reverse situations where the terran loses the game due to one small mistake without the opponent going all-in. And never was there any talk about bio/mine vs muta/ling.
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On July 08 2013 15:43 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 09:35 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 05:53 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 05:07 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 04:56 plogamer wrote:On July 08 2013 04:44 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 04:15 Sissors wrote:On July 08 2013 02:52 RaFox17 wrote:On July 08 2013 02:47 Sissors wrote:I completely agree with Schroedinger, why complain about basic game mechanics when they won't change anyway? Sure you can consider balance changes needed due to basic game mechanics (which is unlikely considering how well the game is currently balanced), but the mechanics themselves won't change. On July 08 2013 01:03 RaFox17 wrote:
[quote]
Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran. So like a zergling runby in the beginning of the game? Raise your supply depots a second too late -> gg. Currently a bit less, but the amount of games toss have gotten from terran players by doing a zealot, stalker, mothership push is also considerable. You really can´t compare early medivac harras and ling run-buys. Lifting the depo is free. Not saying that terran is op but just trying to clarify what LSN is trying to say. But there is always a difference. If you demand it is exactly the same all races should just be merged into one. True but all races should not have an option that is simply superior to those that the other races have imo. Duh, who would disagree that there shouldn't be a superior race in SC2. But the arguments for Terran having superior options here are complete nonsense. /edit But rather than discuss straightforward, you just play lawyer and go around the issue. What is it about Terran that you think is superior? Your argument about supply depots being part of the regular Terran macro is nonsense. Because having units in position for drop defense is also part of the regular macro for other races. You do have to build units anyways, you know, might as well place them in drop location with a couple cannons to support. I suggest u read one page back, and u will understand read all things Those were pretty much walls of text complaining about every positive terran mechanic while ignoring all the positive mechanics of zerg and toss.
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
No I don't see it. Why can't ling runbys happen everytime? Many zerg opponents certainly try to. To me this is just changing your definitions until you can finally have enough constraints to show why drops are bad and ling runbys aren't. I dont understand this logic, could you go furter u say its whining the things we say about terran while i see it far from it We mention bio/mine/medivac is to costeffecient against zerg muta/Ling/bane, how is this whining? How is this good for the game in the long run? Wouldnt it be better if they were even? If that was what those posts were saying I wouldn't complain. I also wouldn't necesarily agree, but I could see it as a possibly valid complaint. However most of the posts there were talking about pretty much every terran mechanic being unfair, from mules to gas cost of bio army to even freaking lift off ability. It had nothing whatsoever to do with bio/mine medivac vs muta/ling, it was just whining over basic mechanics. And then we had that those walls of text could apparently be summarized by that a terran can win the game due to one mistake of his opponent, with the terran not going all-in, and that was unfair. It was next pointed out that there are also plenty of reverse situations where the terran loses the game due to one small mistake without the opponent going all-in. And never was there any talk about bio/mine vs muta/ling.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Foxxan defending that kind of whining is really whining by proxy.
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On July 08 2013 15:30 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 14:53 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 13:58 Rabiator wrote:On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Terrans can only drop because Zergs DO NOT BUILD SUFFICIENT DEFENSE .... like Spore Crawlers and Spine Crawlers or maybe a handful of patrolling Mutalisks / Corruptors to prevent that. You seem to be under the delusion that the Terran defense comes for free, which it doesnt. Terrans HAVE TO wall off and even that isnt a guarantee since they can lower the depot and then the wall is open to every runby if they arent quick enough to close it. Oh and Terrans dont have any static defenses to place anywhere against such runbys, their units are slow and neither can they warp in stuff to defend in a few seconds, so they HAVE TO WALL OFF. [Please dont bother listing the Planetary Fortress, because you cant cover a base with that. Oh and bunkers need units inside them, which reduces your army size ... that isnt a static defense.] Maybe you should do the same as the Terran and DROP YOUR HARRASSMENT UNITS ... its just one research click and a few resources. Just because running into a base is the easiest option doesnt mean there is no other option. If the Terran doesnt expect it the damage will be bigger AND after the first drop the threat will make him paranoid. You could also use a Nydus worm or maybe even a drop (with cheap Zerglings) followed by a Nydus (with the expensive stuff but the worm is guarded by the Lings). I havent seen Zergs use drops in months .... but is that the fault of the Terrans? No. It is the fault of the lazy Zergs who want the cheap way to victory. Baneling bombing runs seem to be "sooo 2011", but are they less effective nowaday? tl;dr Stop whining and use every tool at your disposal. No game is fun if winning is too easy. Dude, you have totally missed the entire point please read more carefully 1-2 pages back and come again,thx for the coffey edit: you dont even have to read 1-2 pages back, it should be enough to read the comment u quoted, i dont get u rabiator seems u are mad all the time when u write stuff All I need to read is this clear WHINE ... Show nested quote +No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything
Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential Its kinda like a red flower whining "why cant I be a yellow flower too?" ... entirely pointless, because in this case the Terran "counter whine" would be "I cant make runbys into your base because your army will surround me wayy before I get there due to the maphax creep info and the fact that your lings are wayyy faster than my units". Zerg can make runbys, Terrans can have (need) drops. No need to whine about it in a "blue is better than red" style. P.S.: + Show Spoiler +- I get mad at people who dont bother writing "you" and instead abbreviate it with "u" ... we arent bros ...
- I get irritated by people who dont bother with uppercase, because that clearly makes a sentence more readable ...
- I get mad when people whine about racially different styles where one race has an advantage but the other one covets it because "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" and the own advantages are completely ignored ...
- I get annoyed by people who fail at quoting ... and your first sentence in your "original post" (which I quoted) is "But your comparasions are out of hand" ... WHOSE comparisons? WHICH comparisons? I am not in your head to know that and since there are always (at least) two sides in a discussion it could be the "pro" side or the "contra" side ... so please stop with the "Dude you have totally missed the entire point because I was too lazy to quote anything" stuff ... even if I read 1-2 pages earlier I still wont know what you mean.
To stop a lingrunbye you need a few buildings to block
Or have some units standing at that spot the lings wanna run
Sometimes the rally units come exactly when the lings arrive(luck involved)
You see a whole in the defence, you run in, it turns out it got costineffecience for the zerglings
Rarely you can escape against a terran
Comparable to medivac drop, its a huge difference imo, to stop a medivac drop it requires alot more from the opponent
A terran has alot, easier to comphrehend medivac drop into their strategy than for zerg to compherend lingrunbuys
You see a freespot to use the drop, you use it. Tons of zerg units arrive you can lift and medivac out
Point is, its alot easier to execute, involve it in the terran strategy and to escape and also at the same time use it more effectively
This is my opinion
Go see some anger management and try to discuss now
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On July 08 2013 16:50 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 15:30 Rabiator wrote:On July 08 2013 14:53 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 13:58 Rabiator wrote:On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Terrans can only drop because Zergs DO NOT BUILD SUFFICIENT DEFENSE .... like Spore Crawlers and Spine Crawlers or maybe a handful of patrolling Mutalisks / Corruptors to prevent that. You seem to be under the delusion that the Terran defense comes for free, which it doesnt. Terrans HAVE TO wall off and even that isnt a guarantee since they can lower the depot and then the wall is open to every runby if they arent quick enough to close it. Oh and Terrans dont have any static defenses to place anywhere against such runbys, their units are slow and neither can they warp in stuff to defend in a few seconds, so they HAVE TO WALL OFF. [Please dont bother listing the Planetary Fortress, because you cant cover a base with that. Oh and bunkers need units inside them, which reduces your army size ... that isnt a static defense.] Maybe you should do the same as the Terran and DROP YOUR HARRASSMENT UNITS ... its just one research click and a few resources. Just because running into a base is the easiest option doesnt mean there is no other option. If the Terran doesnt expect it the damage will be bigger AND after the first drop the threat will make him paranoid. You could also use a Nydus worm or maybe even a drop (with cheap Zerglings) followed by a Nydus (with the expensive stuff but the worm is guarded by the Lings). I havent seen Zergs use drops in months .... but is that the fault of the Terrans? No. It is the fault of the lazy Zergs who want the cheap way to victory. Baneling bombing runs seem to be "sooo 2011", but are they less effective nowaday? tl;dr Stop whining and use every tool at your disposal. No game is fun if winning is too easy. Dude, you have totally missed the entire point please read more carefully 1-2 pages back and come again,thx for the coffey edit: you dont even have to read 1-2 pages back, it should be enough to read the comment u quoted, i dont get u rabiator seems u are mad all the time when u write stuff All I need to read is this clear WHINE ... No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything
Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential Its kinda like a red flower whining "why cant I be a yellow flower too?" ... entirely pointless, because in this case the Terran "counter whine" would be "I cant make runbys into your base because your army will surround me wayy before I get there due to the maphax creep info and the fact that your lings are wayyy faster than my units". Zerg can make runbys, Terrans can have (need) drops. No need to whine about it in a "blue is better than red" style. P.S.: + Show Spoiler +- I get mad at people who dont bother writing "you" and instead abbreviate it with "u" ... we arent bros ...
- I get irritated by people who dont bother with uppercase, because that clearly makes a sentence more readable ...
- I get mad when people whine about racially different styles where one race has an advantage but the other one covets it because "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" and the own advantages are completely ignored ...
- I get annoyed by people who fail at quoting ... and your first sentence in your "original post" (which I quoted) is "But your comparasions are out of hand" ... WHOSE comparisons? WHICH comparisons? I am not in your head to know that and since there are always (at least) two sides in a discussion it could be the "pro" side or the "contra" side ... so please stop with the "Dude you have totally missed the entire point because I was too lazy to quote anything" stuff ... even if I read 1-2 pages earlier I still wont know what you mean.
To stop a lingrunbye you need a few buildings to block Or have some units standing at that spot the lings wanna run Sometimes the rally units come exactly when the lings arrive(luck involved) You see a whole in the defence, you run in, it turns out it got costineffecience for the zerglings Rarely you can escape against a terranComparable to medivac drop, its a huge difference imo, to stop a medivac drop it requires alot more from the opponent A terran has alot, easier to comphrehend medivac drop into their strategy than for zerg to compherend lingrunbuys You see a freespot to use the drop, you use it. Tons of zerg units arrive you can lift and medivac out Point is, its alot easier to execute, involve it in the terran strategy and to escape and also at the same time use it more effectively This is my opinion Go see some anger management and try to discuss now
What. Terran army has the least chasing capacity in TvZ of all matchups, barring chasing broodlords. If the drop defenses are tight, Terran cannot drop. If the wall-off is tight, Zerg cannot do ling run-by.
Rabiator doesn't need anger-management just because he gets angry at non-sense arguments (not that I have seen enough indication that Rabiator is indeed 'angry'.) I don't think you know anger-management at all. Getting angry without cause, or taking it out on someone else, requires proper management of anger.
I urge you to stop attacking Rabiator personally.
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On July 08 2013 16:58 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 16:50 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 15:30 Rabiator wrote:On July 08 2013 14:53 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 13:58 Rabiator wrote:On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Terrans can only drop because Zergs DO NOT BUILD SUFFICIENT DEFENSE .... like Spore Crawlers and Spine Crawlers or maybe a handful of patrolling Mutalisks / Corruptors to prevent that. You seem to be under the delusion that the Terran defense comes for free, which it doesnt. Terrans HAVE TO wall off and even that isnt a guarantee since they can lower the depot and then the wall is open to every runby if they arent quick enough to close it. Oh and Terrans dont have any static defenses to place anywhere against such runbys, their units are slow and neither can they warp in stuff to defend in a few seconds, so they HAVE TO WALL OFF. [Please dont bother listing the Planetary Fortress, because you cant cover a base with that. Oh and bunkers need units inside them, which reduces your army size ... that isnt a static defense.] Maybe you should do the same as the Terran and DROP YOUR HARRASSMENT UNITS ... its just one research click and a few resources. Just because running into a base is the easiest option doesnt mean there is no other option. If the Terran doesnt expect it the damage will be bigger AND after the first drop the threat will make him paranoid. You could also use a Nydus worm or maybe even a drop (with cheap Zerglings) followed by a Nydus (with the expensive stuff but the worm is guarded by the Lings). I havent seen Zergs use drops in months .... but is that the fault of the Terrans? No. It is the fault of the lazy Zergs who want the cheap way to victory. Baneling bombing runs seem to be "sooo 2011", but are they less effective nowaday? tl;dr Stop whining and use every tool at your disposal. No game is fun if winning is too easy. Dude, you have totally missed the entire point please read more carefully 1-2 pages back and come again,thx for the coffey edit: you dont even have to read 1-2 pages back, it should be enough to read the comment u quoted, i dont get u rabiator seems u are mad all the time when u write stuff All I need to read is this clear WHINE ... No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything
Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential Its kinda like a red flower whining "why cant I be a yellow flower too?" ... entirely pointless, because in this case the Terran "counter whine" would be "I cant make runbys into your base because your army will surround me wayy before I get there due to the maphax creep info and the fact that your lings are wayyy faster than my units". Zerg can make runbys, Terrans can have (need) drops. No need to whine about it in a "blue is better than red" style. P.S.: + Show Spoiler +- I get mad at people who dont bother writing "you" and instead abbreviate it with "u" ... we arent bros ...
- I get irritated by people who dont bother with uppercase, because that clearly makes a sentence more readable ...
- I get mad when people whine about racially different styles where one race has an advantage but the other one covets it because "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" and the own advantages are completely ignored ...
- I get annoyed by people who fail at quoting ... and your first sentence in your "original post" (which I quoted) is "But your comparasions are out of hand" ... WHOSE comparisons? WHICH comparisons? I am not in your head to know that and since there are always (at least) two sides in a discussion it could be the "pro" side or the "contra" side ... so please stop with the "Dude you have totally missed the entire point because I was too lazy to quote anything" stuff ... even if I read 1-2 pages earlier I still wont know what you mean.
To stop a lingrunbye you need a few buildings to block Or have some units standing at that spot the lings wanna run Sometimes the rally units come exactly when the lings arrive(luck involved) You see a whole in the defence, you run in, it turns out it got costineffecience for the zerglings Rarely you can escape against a terranComparable to medivac drop, its a huge difference imo, to stop a medivac drop it requires alot more from the opponent A terran has alot, easier to comphrehend medivac drop into their strategy than for zerg to compherend lingrunbuys You see a freespot to use the drop, you use it. Tons of zerg units arrive you can lift and medivac out Point is, its alot easier to execute, involve it in the terran strategy and to escape and also at the same time use it more effectively This is my opinion Go see some anger management and try to discuss now What. Terran army has the least chasing capacity in TvZ of all matchups, barring chasing broodlords. If the drop defenses are tight, Terran cannot drop. If the wall-off is tight, Zerg cannot do ling run-by. Rabiator doesn't need anger-management just because he gets angry at non-sense arguments (not that I have seen enough indication that Rabiator is indeed 'angry'.) I don't think you know anger-management at all. Getting angry without cause, or taking it out on someone else, requires proper management of anger. I urge you to stop attacking Rabiator personally.
Can u stop write to me please?
It was all about lingrunbuys when i said "rarely can u escape against a terran"
It meant when the zerglings are inside (the runbuy succeeded)
OK? stop write to me please
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God some of you are really not understanding the current metagame at all.
Drop is merely a way to trade and to have complete map control while you macro off the 3rd cc extremely safely behind if Zerg is playing standard (not roach ling baneling all in)
Zerg must catch up with the terran who goes fast in base 3rd but a fast 4th is almost impossible to defend because how it spread zerg units.
Dropping spores like hyun against polt did works only against drop but zerg doesn't have the 5 and 6th gas which is crucial for hive tech. No hive means upgrades are behind, no ultras to push back the terran.
By the time you have the luxury to drop spores, the terran is gaining more advantage with their map control already.
Polt only looked like he was in trouble because of his raven transition.
Unlike mech, zerg army isn't the defensive but super cost efficient army ball. It's army is getting less and less cost efficient as the time goes since hive upgrades and units are not available.
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On July 08 2013 17:15 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 16:58 plogamer wrote:On July 08 2013 16:50 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 15:30 Rabiator wrote:On July 08 2013 14:53 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 13:58 Rabiator wrote:On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Terrans can only drop because Zergs DO NOT BUILD SUFFICIENT DEFENSE .... like Spore Crawlers and Spine Crawlers or maybe a handful of patrolling Mutalisks / Corruptors to prevent that. You seem to be under the delusion that the Terran defense comes for free, which it doesnt. Terrans HAVE TO wall off and even that isnt a guarantee since they can lower the depot and then the wall is open to every runby if they arent quick enough to close it. Oh and Terrans dont have any static defenses to place anywhere against such runbys, their units are slow and neither can they warp in stuff to defend in a few seconds, so they HAVE TO WALL OFF. [Please dont bother listing the Planetary Fortress, because you cant cover a base with that. Oh and bunkers need units inside them, which reduces your army size ... that isnt a static defense.] Maybe you should do the same as the Terran and DROP YOUR HARRASSMENT UNITS ... its just one research click and a few resources. Just because running into a base is the easiest option doesnt mean there is no other option. If the Terran doesnt expect it the damage will be bigger AND after the first drop the threat will make him paranoid. You could also use a Nydus worm or maybe even a drop (with cheap Zerglings) followed by a Nydus (with the expensive stuff but the worm is guarded by the Lings). I havent seen Zergs use drops in months .... but is that the fault of the Terrans? No. It is the fault of the lazy Zergs who want the cheap way to victory. Baneling bombing runs seem to be "sooo 2011", but are they less effective nowaday? tl;dr Stop whining and use every tool at your disposal. No game is fun if winning is too easy. Dude, you have totally missed the entire point please read more carefully 1-2 pages back and come again,thx for the coffey edit: you dont even have to read 1-2 pages back, it should be enough to read the comment u quoted, i dont get u rabiator seems u are mad all the time when u write stuff All I need to read is this clear WHINE ... No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything
Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential Its kinda like a red flower whining "why cant I be a yellow flower too?" ... entirely pointless, because in this case the Terran "counter whine" would be "I cant make runbys into your base because your army will surround me wayy before I get there due to the maphax creep info and the fact that your lings are wayyy faster than my units". Zerg can make runbys, Terrans can have (need) drops. No need to whine about it in a "blue is better than red" style. P.S.: + Show Spoiler +- I get mad at people who dont bother writing "you" and instead abbreviate it with "u" ... we arent bros ...
- I get irritated by people who dont bother with uppercase, because that clearly makes a sentence more readable ...
- I get mad when people whine about racially different styles where one race has an advantage but the other one covets it because "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" and the own advantages are completely ignored ...
- I get annoyed by people who fail at quoting ... and your first sentence in your "original post" (which I quoted) is "But your comparasions are out of hand" ... WHOSE comparisons? WHICH comparisons? I am not in your head to know that and since there are always (at least) two sides in a discussion it could be the "pro" side or the "contra" side ... so please stop with the "Dude you have totally missed the entire point because I was too lazy to quote anything" stuff ... even if I read 1-2 pages earlier I still wont know what you mean.
To stop a lingrunbye you need a few buildings to block Or have some units standing at that spot the lings wanna run Sometimes the rally units come exactly when the lings arrive(luck involved) You see a whole in the defence, you run in, it turns out it got costineffecience for the zerglings Rarely you can escape against a terranComparable to medivac drop, its a huge difference imo, to stop a medivac drop it requires alot more from the opponent A terran has alot, easier to comphrehend medivac drop into their strategy than for zerg to compherend lingrunbuys You see a freespot to use the drop, you use it. Tons of zerg units arrive you can lift and medivac out Point is, its alot easier to execute, involve it in the terran strategy and to escape and also at the same time use it more effectively This is my opinion Go see some anger management and try to discuss now What. Terran army has the least chasing capacity in TvZ of all matchups, barring chasing broodlords. If the drop defenses are tight, Terran cannot drop. If the wall-off is tight, Zerg cannot do ling run-by. Rabiator doesn't need anger-management just because he gets angry at non-sense arguments (not that I have seen enough indication that Rabiator is indeed 'angry'.) I don't think you know anger-management at all. Getting angry without cause, or taking it out on someone else, requires proper management of anger. I urge you to stop attacking Rabiator personally. Can u stop write to me please? It was all about lingrunbuys when i said "rarely can u escape against a terran" It meant when the zerglings are inside (the runbuy succeeded) OK? stop write to me please
If lings are inside, what do you mean by escape? Aside from a miracle (really good defense or really really bad ling control), it will do very cost efficient damage on the mineral-line.
And please stop writing without any real points. And please stop attack Rabiator or anyone else personally.
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One of the main things I absolutely hate about combining the medic and dropship is terran doesn't really have to invest into harass. Medivacs and marines will pretty much always be a part of a bio army and it seems a little ridiculous that I can force my opponent to spend 500+ minerals early-mid game on defense with no real loss on my side of things.
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I don't like the way this thread is going tbh. Sooner or later this thread is going to go on from balance whining to personal assaults. Granted that most balance "discussions" topics end up this way but for once why can't we have a friendly argument where no one flames another because of a "bad argument"?
Also regarding all of this talk about Terran drops, drops are the only method of harass available for Terran when you go biomine. Against a 1 medivac drop a couple of spines at a hatch can deal with them pretty easily, a 2 medivac drop can be cleared out by a couple of lings assuming they follow the medivac around so that the lings can surround the marines that drop one at a time, meanwhile you can use the rest of your army to get back map control. If zerg has map control then its pretty hard to secure a 4th base without being open to a counterattack that can potentially kill their 3rd base.
Speaking of map control, if Zerg goes mutas then drops become a lot less threatening for the zerg and more risky for the terran. Getting a dropship caught by a Muta flock is really annoying for the terran and its pretty easy for that to happen with good creep spread and overlord spread. But of course that doesn't neccesarily mean that Zerg have to go mutas to be even with Terran. Infestors are a lot more on the defensive side IMO, leaving a couple of infestors at your home to fungal drops while you do Life-style (I like to call them that) Ling-bling runbys with your main army to squeeze off the terran's multitasking to get map control mainly is also a viable strat, then whether you trade cost effectively or not depends on the players playing.
Also I could be wrong at some parts, but that's just my take on Terran drops.
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EPT
