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On July 07 2013 21:12 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 21:01 LSN wrote:
obviously everyone who is defending terran mechanics here with his life is a terran player that benefits greatly of several new easy win mechanics.
As I said before, you basically just don't see zergs win games in ZvT this way at all. But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game. And yes this is what I call minor mistake, cause terran does not induce it by going all-in but within the normal macro game.
Examples?
Life vs Flash: flash kills ~13 banelings relatively early with one widow mine shot from the usual macro game attack wave (no trade offs, no risks, no dangers) = gg zerg cannot come back, game ends few minutes after. One wasted game for zerg, audience and in general in the series.
Hyun vs Polt: Last game, polt easy win. No way to come back for zerg vs bio+mine play. Not induced by all-in play but usual macro-game situation. Zergs have to go all-in to create such situations and then still have high risks of instant losing the game when failing. Terran induces this in usual macro game without any trade-offs or drawbacks just a matter of every-game play! When terran fails it is not a big deal, due to the terran killing mechanic vs zerg, where zerg always has to waste alot of zerglings, banelings and what else to defend against it.
PvT in general: 5 Stalker defense vs 2 Dropships. If they are in place at right time, all right. Terran just flies away and nothing changed. If in 1 out of 5 or 1 out of 7 games stalkers are not in place and 2 dropships unload bio in mainbase while terran army attacks front it is usually instant GG. No trade offs, no big risks (speedvacs) no change of build order needed, no special gas costs for this attack, no delayed expansion etc.
This makes the imbalance of terran. In most games it doesn't do any effect on the game WHEN the defender has his stuff in place. But if not then we see these single sided terran OP games that we see in very high level play very oftenly and that are neither fun to watch nor at all fair by any means. Even a poorly executed attack kill 50-80% of zerg units while terran loses 50-80% (medivacs fly away with maybe some guys inside). Poorly executed zerg attack is nearly like zerg loses 100% of units (no they won't run away once attacked into stimmed bio even tho many units are fast, cause zerg has to fully commit to attacks) while terran loses 0-25% of units used in this fight.
! 8(
Soulkey vs innovation: innovation drops 2 medivacs, loses them to mutas, no risk, no change of build order needed, no special gas costs for this attack. Game over. 3 burrowed banelings kill 30 marines: game over, no risk, no change of build needed. A terran who has for 3 seconds not code S split micro: game over. A terran that can't do damage vs a camping toss behind his cannons in the midgame: game over. A terran who forgot to build a turret, like in 1 game out of 7, and 3 dt's come in: game over. All by 1 simple mistake! So unfair ;DDDDDDDD
The two medivacs weren't what cost him the game lol, he was far behind before that point already.
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On July 07 2013 21:01 LSN wrote:
obviously everyone who is defending terran mechanics here with his life is a terran player that benefits greatly from several new easy win mechanics.
Such a poor way to discuss something. If you go that route, then nothing is stopping us from thinking that you are a non-terran player that benefits greatly from terran nerf. Eye for an eye, huh? Nah, that's not how discussion should work, and I play zerg if that matters for anything.
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On July 07 2013 21:30 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 21:01 LSN wrote:
obviously everyone who is defending terran mechanics here with his life is a terran player that benefits greatly from several new easy win mechanics. Such a poor way to discuss something. If you go that route, then nothing is stopping us from thinking that you are a non-terran player that benefits greatly from terran nerf. Eye for an eye, huh? Nah, that's not how discussion should work, and I play zerg if that matters for anything.
i agree, LSN you have great points but dont go that route for the sake of thisthread
thx
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On July 07 2013 21:12 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 21:01 LSN wrote:
obviously everyone who is defending terran mechanics here with his life is a terran player that benefits greatly of several new easy win mechanics.
As I said before, you basically just don't see zergs win games in ZvT this way at all. But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game. And yes this is what I call minor mistake, cause terran does not induce it by going all-in but within the normal macro game.
Examples?
Life vs Flash: flash kills ~13 banelings relatively early with one widow mine shot from the usual macro game attack wave (no trade offs, no risks, no dangers) = gg zerg cannot come back, game ends few minutes after. One wasted game for zerg, audience and in general in the series.
Hyun vs Polt: Last game, polt easy win. No way to come back for zerg vs bio+mine play. Not induced by all-in play but usual macro-game situation. Zergs have to go all-in to create such situations and then still have high risks of instant losing the game when failing. Terran induces this in usual macro game without any trade-offs or drawbacks just a matter of every-game play! When terran fails it is not a big deal, due to the terran killing mechanic vs zerg, where zerg always has to waste alot of zerglings, banelings and what else to defend against it.
PvT in general: 5 Stalker defense vs 2 Dropships. If they are in place at right time, all right. Terran just flies away and nothing changed. If in 1 out of 5 or 1 out of 7 games stalkers are not in place and 2 dropships unload bio in mainbase while terran army attacks front it is usually instant GG. No trade offs, no big risks (speedvacs) no change of build order needed, no special gas costs for this attack, no delayed expansion etc.
This makes the imbalance of terran. In most games it doesn't do any effect on the game WHEN the defender has his stuff in place. But if not then we see these single sided terran OP games that we see in very high level play very oftenly and that are neither fun to watch nor at all fair by any means. Even a poorly executed attack kill 50-80% of zerg units while terran loses 50-80% (medivacs fly away with maybe some guys inside). Poorly executed zerg attack is nearly like zerg loses 100% of units (no they won't run away once attacked into stimmed bio even tho many units are fast, cause zerg has to fully commit to attacks) while terran loses 0-25% of units used in this fight.
! 8(
Soulkey vs innovation: innovation drops 2 medivacs, loses them to mutas, no risk, no change of build order needed, no special gas costs for this attack. Game over. 3 burrowed banelings kill 30 marines: game over, no risk, no change of build needed. A terran who has for 3 seconds not code S split micro: game over. A terran that can't do damage vs a camping toss behind his cannons in the midgame: game over. A terran who forgot to build a turret, like in 1 game out of 7, and 3 dt's come in: game over. All by 1 simple mistake! So unfair ;DDDDDDDD
With these examples i just dont think u get it at all
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yes he doesn't and I precisely explained why in my previous post - every single point.
Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. Therefore it is hard to recognize and even more hard to accept it as such. I explained why in detail. It might not affect a best of 3 (1 out of 5 or 7 games does exclude alot of bo3 series). But once it takes effect there is the completely terran sided macrogame win (that looks like a well executed all-in but isnt) that instant wins the game.
These are the games where you can watch the casters calming down their voices because they see this is game-over and no way back but still try to make it exciting and interesting for the audience until the game actually ends but you can recognize the difference only from they way they are speaking (all tense is out of the game, its matter of time and to wait until the terran decides to re attack to complete it, this is btw also why zerg players are mostly fan favourites (dimaga, tlo, ret, drg, etc.). Because if once in a while a zerg manages to come back out of such a situation and it feels extraordinary high level of play. Instead terrans frequently just barely survive all zerg aggressions and win due to mule+no gas needed mechanics after this easily vs a zerg that has taken heavy trade offs in tech, upgrades and expansions in order to execute this attack and has not completely killed off the terran but only done heavy damage, which is not enaugh considering the fact that zergs take big trade-offs for this and basically also lose everything in the course of the attack in order to get the damage done).
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On July 07 2013 21:57 LSN wrote:
yes he doesn't and I precisely explained why in my previous post - every single point.
Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. Therefore it is hard to recognize and even more hard to accept it as such. I explained why in detail. It might not affect a best of 3 (1 out of 5 or 7 games does exclude alot of bo3 series). But once it takes effect there is the completely terran sided macrogame win (that looks like a well executed all-in but isnt) that instant wins the game.
These are the games where you can watch the casters calming down their voices because they see this is game-over and no way back but still try to make it exciting and interesting for the audience until the game actually ends but you can recognize the difference only from they way they are speaking (all tense is out of the game, its matter of time and to wait until the terran decides to re attack to complete it)..
Talking about all the pros of a race and none of the cons is a pretty good way to show that race is OP. Considering all the points you've talked about are pretty much when the Terran is in the best position ever, and the Zerg seems to be a bumbling retard, it's a pretty horrible way to discuss balance.
Like this gem of an argument
It is the same as in TvP the drop defense of P. Sure pro players in 4 of 5 games have these 5 stalkers back there to fend off the dropships while closely defending the frontal terran aggression with a perfect split of units. But in this 1/5 cases when they have not it is an instant lose and this makes imbalance. Noone says that pro players do not manage to deal with these things in many or most cases. But what if not? Why terran wins instant then cause bio focuses down everything in few seconds and then just drop fly away in medivacs with zero loss without even taking any risks in the process of making the decision to perform this action? :D
... it is for sure imbalance man :p
Yeah, okay. It's absolutely imbalanced lings to be so fast, they're going to run into my base because I don't believe in WALLS! NERF LING SPEED. I don't believe in Turrets either, more than 1 DT = OP OP OP
Seriously, if you're going to come up with something trollish, at least try.
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no it is a fractional way to discuss balance. It is the only viable way in my point of view.
Just to neutralize some of your points I mention some mechanics that I don't like from other races as well and feel like a they are a bit imbalaned:
- oracle heavy dmg instant win vs terran
- warp-prism sentry drop to FF block choke and warpin for instant GG
- swarm-host play vs protoss
- maybe a bit too strong ultralisks
- some more ...
still the difference is the trade-off other races have to do to execute it compared to the zero trade offs for terran to play bio, mine, medivac. Also alot of these things from other races requires alot more commitment in order to execute them while terran is more like
"oh I am at 3 bases and take the 4th and at the same time I execute this drop play which if I am lucky and find my opponent off guard instant wins me the game and if not I unload focus down something and then boost fly away or if all bad I just boost fly away back home"
No extra tech needed, no upgrades delayed, no expansions delayed. Just use of total basic units that the terran anyway has and a matter of splitting them up into different groups for drops and frontal attacks.
Yes I argue one-sided as I want to point out that this terran mechanic is unique. While other races have these things that can instant win you the games they are basically total all-ins with big commitments with big trade-offs, totally non-standard play therefore comparably easy to scout and react on and therefore not outstanding in balance issues. (more like a dual 10/11 offrax attack ZvT, huge trade-off, huge drawback, if no damage getting done game is lost, just to name one example of this common mechanic that exists for terran too).
I quote my suggestions that I have posted before so just that you see them again:
- reduce mule hp to a very low amount like 10 15 or 20.
- maybe give zerg buildings again a bit more hitpoints (so focussing down hatchery or tech structures and flying away becomes more difficult, more time for zerg to react) - this probably has bad effect on ZvP tho.
- maybe reduce medivac hitpoints slightly (more easy to fungal them, more easy to keep them away with queens, spore crawlers).
- maybe make medivac speed an upgrade that costs some reasonable amount of gas (e.g. 50m/150g or 0m/200g or 0/150, smth like this that does need only a little amount of time to upgrade).
as you can I see I don't expect big things to happen. Just some little adjustments which force the terran to take more risks when doing these highly effective and potentially instant game winning drop play actions.
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On July 07 2013 22:29 LSN wrote:
no it is a fractional way to discuss balance. It is the only viable way in my point of view.
Just to neutralize some of your points I mention some mechanics that I don't like from other races as well and feel like a they are a bit imbalaned:
- oracle heavy dmg instant win vs terran
- warp-prism sentry drop to FF block choke and warpin for instant GG
- swarm-host play vs protoss
- maybe a bit too strong ultralisks
- some more ...
still the difference is the trade-off other races have to do to execute it compared to the zero trade offs for terran to play bio, mine, medivac. Also alot of these things from other races requires alot more commitment in order to execute them while terran is more like
"oh I am at 3 bases and take the 4th and at the same time I execute this drop play which if I am lucky and find my opponent off guard instant wins me the game and if not I unload focus down something and then boost fly away or if all bad I just boost fly away back home"
No extra tech needed, no upgrades delayed, no expansions delayed. Just use of total basic units that the terran anyway has and a matter of splitting them up into different groups for drops and frontal attacks.
Yes I argue one-sided as I want to point out that this terran mechanic is unique. While other races have these things that can instant win you the games they are basically total all-ins with big commitments with big trade-offs, totally non-standard play therefore comparably easy to scout and react on and therefore not outstanding in balance issues. (more like a dual 10/11 offrax attack ZvT, huge trade-off, huge drawback, if no damage getting done game is lost, just to name one example of this common mechanic that exists for terran too).
Except it's an awful way to discuss balance. Look, just stop with giving theorycrafted examples, and just see if your method of talking about balance is even something worth talking about. And I'm going to give you a hint, it's not. It's absolutely stupid to talk about balance when one player simply doesn't do something necessary to defend, either from forgetting, not wanting to do it, or simply just not "skilled" enough to pull it off (bronze players probably can't look at the minimap all the time)
I don't even want to start addressing your other points because of how wrong they are. I'm not even sure if you know how to play Terran, or Protoss or hell, even Zerg at a sufficiently high level to be able to talk about this.
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On July 07 2013 22:33 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 22:29 LSN wrote:
no it is a fractional way to discuss balance. It is the only viable way in my point of view.
Just to neutralize some of your points I mention some mechanics that I don't like from other races as well and feel like a they are a bit imbalaned:
- oracle heavy dmg instant win vs terran
- warp-prism sentry drop to FF block choke and warpin for instant GG
- swarm-host play vs protoss
- maybe a bit too strong ultralisks
- some more ...
still the difference is the trade-off other races have to do to execute it compared to the zero trade offs for terran to play bio, mine, medivac. Also alot of these things from other races requires alot more commitment in order to execute them while terran is more like
"oh I am at 3 bases and take the 4th and at the same time I execute this drop play which if I am lucky and find my opponent off guard instant wins me the game and if not I unload focus down something and then boost fly away or if all bad I just boost fly away back home"
No extra tech needed, no upgrades delayed, no expansions delayed. Just use of total basic units that the terran anyway has and a matter of splitting them up into different groups for drops and frontal attacks.
Yes I argue one-sided as I want to point out that this terran mechanic is unique. While other races have these things that can instant win you the games they are basically total all-ins with big commitments with big trade-offs, totally non-standard play therefore comparably easy to scout and react on and therefore not outstanding in balance issues. (more like a dual 10/11 offrax attack ZvT, huge trade-off, huge drawback, if no damage getting done game is lost, just to name one example of this common mechanic that exists for terran too).
Except it's an awful way to discuss balance. Look, just stop with giving theorycrafted examples, and just see if your method of talking about balance is even something worth talking about. And I'm going to give you a hint, it's not. It's absolutely stupid to talk about balance when one player simply doesn't do something necessary to defend, either from forgetting, not wanting to do it, or simply just not "skilled" enough to pull it off (bronze players probably can't look at the minimap all the time) I don't even want to start addressing your other points because of how wrong they are. I'm not even sure if you know how to play Terran, or Protoss or hell, even Zerg at a sufficiently high level to be able to talk about this.
lol :D
all this from the guy who complained about that when having no turret in TvP vs DT you lose the game. What on the one hand nowhere happens and on the other hand is just something a total noob can say and therefore you revealed your own skill already quite well man ;-)
You compare an all-in dt build with standard terran macro aggression. You don't see difference in tech, upgrade and expansion commitments/drawbacks etc. the different races have to do in order to induce a similar situation where a game can potentiall be won with a single attack/action etc.
I think I got some quite decent points and if you are not able to argue them in an adequate matter (your try was more or less completely wrong and not even terran players I talk with would say that) you better rather keep away from things you don't (can or want) understand.
You also should recognize that I don't talk about the whole matchup because I don't say the whole matchup might necessarily be imbalanced but certain mechanics for sure are. E.g. later on in TvZ zerg gets some really strong ultraliks that even out alot of things in later stages of the game. But I guess this fractional view of certain stages and mechanics and if it is good or bad for the game is something you learn to do when you get a bid older.
Your point basically is "this guy said terran op so he is bad and I have to fight this with my life" ;-(
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On July 07 2013 22:39 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 22:33 Chaggi wrote:On July 07 2013 22:29 LSN wrote:
no it is a fractional way to discuss balance. It is the only viable way in my point of view.
Just to neutralize some of your points I mention some mechanics that I don't like from other races as well and feel like a they are a bit imbalaned:
- oracle heavy dmg instant win vs terran
- warp-prism sentry drop to FF block choke and warpin for instant GG
- swarm-host play vs protoss
- maybe a bit too strong ultralisks
- some more ...
still the difference is the trade-off other races have to do to execute it compared to the zero trade offs for terran to play bio, mine, medivac. Also alot of these things from other races requires alot more commitment in order to execute them while terran is more like
"oh I am at 3 bases and take the 4th and at the same time I execute this drop play which if I am lucky and find my opponent off guard instant wins me the game and if not I unload focus down something and then boost fly away or if all bad I just boost fly away back home"
No extra tech needed, no upgrades delayed, no expansions delayed. Just use of total basic units that the terran anyway has and a matter of splitting them up into different groups for drops and frontal attacks.
Yes I argue one-sided as I want to point out that this terran mechanic is unique. While other races have these things that can instant win you the games they are basically total all-ins with big commitments with big trade-offs, totally non-standard play therefore comparably easy to scout and react on and therefore not outstanding in balance issues. (more like a dual 10/11 offrax attack ZvT, huge trade-off, huge drawback, if no damage getting done game is lost, just to name one example of this common mechanic that exists for terran too).
Except it's an awful way to discuss balance. Look, just stop with giving theorycrafted examples, and just see if your method of talking about balance is even something worth talking about. And I'm going to give you a hint, it's not. It's absolutely stupid to talk about balance when one player simply doesn't do something necessary to defend, either from forgetting, not wanting to do it, or simply just not "skilled" enough to pull it off (bronze players probably can't look at the minimap all the time) I don't even want to start addressing your other points because of how wrong they are. I'm not even sure if you know how to play Terran, or Protoss or hell, even Zerg at a sufficiently high level to be able to talk about this. lol :D all this from the guy who complained about that when having no turret in TvP vs DT you lose the game. What on the one hand nowhere happens and on the other hand is just something a total noob can say and therefore you revealed your own skill already quite well man ;-) I think I got some quite decent points and if you are not able to argue them in an adequate matter (your try was more or less completely wrong and not even terran players I talk with would say that) you better rather keep away from things you don't (can or want) understand.
It's called sarcasm, I know it's hard but please try to keep up.
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now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-)
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On July 07 2013 22:33 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 22:29 LSN wrote:
no it is a fractional way to discuss balance. It is the only viable way in my point of view.
Just to neutralize some of your points I mention some mechanics that I don't like from other races as well and feel like a they are a bit imbalaned:
- oracle heavy dmg instant win vs terran
- warp-prism sentry drop to FF block choke and warpin for instant GG
- swarm-host play vs protoss
- maybe a bit too strong ultralisks
- some more ...
still the difference is the trade-off other races have to do to execute it compared to the zero trade offs for terran to play bio, mine, medivac. Also alot of these things from other races requires alot more commitment in order to execute them while terran is more like
"oh I am at 3 bases and take the 4th and at the same time I execute this drop play which if I am lucky and find my opponent off guard instant wins me the game and if not I unload focus down something and then boost fly away or if all bad I just boost fly away back home"
No extra tech needed, no upgrades delayed, no expansions delayed. Just use of total basic units that the terran anyway has and a matter of splitting them up into different groups for drops and frontal attacks.
Yes I argue one-sided as I want to point out that this terran mechanic is unique. While other races have these things that can instant win you the games they are basically total all-ins with big commitments with big trade-offs, totally non-standard play therefore comparably easy to scout and react on and therefore not outstanding in balance issues. (more like a dual 10/11 offrax attack ZvT, huge trade-off, huge drawback, if no damage getting done game is lost, just to name one example of this common mechanic that exists for terran too).
Except it's an awful way to discuss balance. Look, just stop with giving theorycrafted examples, and just see if your method of talking about balance is even something worth talking about. And I'm going to give you a hint, it's not. It's absolutely stupid to talk about balance when one player simply doesn't do something necessary to defend, either from forgetting, not wanting to do it, or simply just not "skilled" enough to pull it off (bronze players probably can't look at the minimap all the time) I don't even want to start addressing your other points because of how wrong they are. I'm not even sure if you know how to play Terran, or Protoss or hell, even Zerg at a sufficiently high level to be able to talk about this.
I dont understand what u are going with this, he is not theorycrafting
All these things happen pretty regular, but i dont think u understand his points even? doesnt seem so and u havent wrote anything discussable either, just saying "this is bad for discussion, just stop" and leave it at that
I understand what he means, terran plays absolutely normal (good macro, none-allin) and can win terran the game with a few moves
he even says other races can win a game with a few moves or a just one move but here is his point, they can only do this with allin mostly, and if it fails They lose instead, u get it?
While terran do not lose, terran do not even get behind while playing normal, you understand?
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On July 07 2013 22:50 LSN wrote:
now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-)
Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious.
Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance.
So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg.
And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%?
I explained why in detail.
No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics.
But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game.
So? There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted.
Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg.
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On July 07 2013 23:57 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 22:50 LSN wrote:
now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-) Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious. Show nested quote +Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg. And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%? No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics.
He means that terrans can play normal macro game and every now and then just win outright because of the weapons terran has. If zerg defends perfectly the game continues normally. He thinks that the problem is that if zerg wants to get that kind of a win he needs to commit to something that is basically all-in. Meanwhile terran can do the same kind of game ending damage while playing normal macro is the problem.
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But the question is, that is different form other races how? It then must be a crucial mistake of the opponent, if it is something the terran does, we would just do it every single game and yolo our way to code s.
And when we are talking about single mistakes ending the game, I can give enough examples of it happening the other way. I edited it into my post before I saw yours, but to requote them:
There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted.
Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg.
And of course many more. And maybe except the oracle, all these examples are not with the opponent doing necesarily an all-in.
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On July 07 2013 23:57 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 22:50 LSN wrote:
now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-) Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious. Show nested quote +Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg. And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%? No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics. Show nested quote +But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game. So? There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted. Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg.
Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference
and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh)
As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand?
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On July 07 2013 22:39 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 22:33 Chaggi wrote:On July 07 2013 22:29 LSN wrote:
no it is a fractional way to discuss balance. It is the only viable way in my point of view.
Just to neutralize some of your points I mention some mechanics that I don't like from other races as well and feel like a they are a bit imbalaned:
- oracle heavy dmg instant win vs terran
- warp-prism sentry drop to FF block choke and warpin for instant GG
- swarm-host play vs protoss
- maybe a bit too strong ultralisks
- some more ...
still the difference is the trade-off other races have to do to execute it compared to the zero trade offs for terran to play bio, mine, medivac. Also alot of these things from other races requires alot more commitment in order to execute them while terran is more like
"oh I am at 3 bases and take the 4th and at the same time I execute this drop play which if I am lucky and find my opponent off guard instant wins me the game and if not I unload focus down something and then boost fly away or if all bad I just boost fly away back home"
No extra tech needed, no upgrades delayed, no expansions delayed. Just use of total basic units that the terran anyway has and a matter of splitting them up into different groups for drops and frontal attacks.
Yes I argue one-sided as I want to point out that this terran mechanic is unique. While other races have these things that can instant win you the games they are basically total all-ins with big commitments with big trade-offs, totally non-standard play therefore comparably easy to scout and react on and therefore not outstanding in balance issues. (more like a dual 10/11 offrax attack ZvT, huge trade-off, huge drawback, if no damage getting done game is lost, just to name one example of this common mechanic that exists for terran too).
Except it's an awful way to discuss balance. Look, just stop with giving theorycrafted examples, and just see if your method of talking about balance is even something worth talking about. And I'm going to give you a hint, it's not. It's absolutely stupid to talk about balance when one player simply doesn't do something necessary to defend, either from forgetting, not wanting to do it, or simply just not "skilled" enough to pull it off (bronze players probably can't look at the minimap all the time) I don't even want to start addressing your other points because of how wrong they are. I'm not even sure if you know how to play Terran, or Protoss or hell, even Zerg at a sufficiently high level to be able to talk about this. lol :D all this from the guy who complained about that when having no turret in TvP vs DT you lose the game. What on the one hand nowhere happens and on the other hand is just something a total noob can say and therefore you revealed your own skill already quite well man ;-) You compare an all-in dt build with standard terran macro aggression. You don't see difference in tech, upgrade and expansion commitments/drawbacks etc. the different races have to do in order to induce a similar situation where a game can potentiall be won with a single attack/action etc. I think I got some quite decent points and if you are not able to argue them in an adequate matter (your try was more or less completely wrong and not even terran players I talk with would say that) you better rather keep away from things you don't (can or want) understand. You also should recognize that I don't talk about the whole matchup because I don't say the whole matchup might necessarily be imbalanced but certain mechanics for sure are. E.g. later on in TvZ zerg gets some really strong ultraliks that even out alot of things in later stages of the game. But I guess this fractional view of certain stages and mechanics and if it is good or bad for the game is something you learn to do when you get a bid older. Your point basically is "this guy said terran op so he is bad and I have to fight this with my life" ;-(
DT opener isnt all-in with the decrease to its cost.
And he wasnt complaining about DTs. He was comparing the whining about Terran mechanics to whining about Protoss mechanics, DT for example. And it really is silly. At the pro-level, there is no 4 out of 5. You cut corners and your opponent sees it, you will lose.
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On July 08 2013 00:14 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 23:57 Sissors wrote:On July 07 2013 22:50 LSN wrote:
now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-) Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious. Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg. And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%? I explained why in detail. No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics. But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game. So? There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted. Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg. Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh) As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand?
Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close.
But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand).
But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway?
And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening.
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On July 08 2013 00:57 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 00:14 Foxxan wrote:On July 07 2013 23:57 Sissors wrote:On July 07 2013 22:50 LSN wrote:
now you try to let it look like sarcasm. You wanted to make a point there but you did just prove your own skill not being very high.
But this is getting too low for me now. I have made my points and you have nothing to counter them. I am out :-) Sorry but if you didn't notice his sarcasm there I have bad news for you, he doens't need to let it look like anything, since it was beyond obvious. Also terran players need to understand that it is a matter of 1 out of 5 or 7 game imbalance. So Terrans have an imbalanced thing, and we only use it 1 out of 5-7 games? Why arent terrans using that imbalance every game? Especially considering you present it like terran will win easily every single game due to our huge advantages compared to zerg. And then you want to severely nerf the terran, for an imbalance in 1 out of 5-7 games. Should I point out how it is stupid to change an imbalance from less than 20% of the games, to more than 80%? I explained why in detail. No you didnt. You whined alot about race mechanics. But in a bo7 series terran basically always wins 1+ games totally one-sided where the zerg cannot come back after one single action in early game. So? There are countless examples of losing games totally one sided due to one mistake. I guess toss is on top of the list with their tons of all-ins. One turret not built, one widow mine not burrowed vs incoming oracle, one building not scouted. Zerg might have bit less (here comes the whining over mechanics), but one mistake over burrowed banelings. Or for terrans, one time forgetting to raise supply depot. Also still in hots, one mistake against infestors can easily cost you the game. Or having your army somewhere on the field, macro'ing your base for a second, boom banelings rolling in, gg. Dude can u chill, seriously? You dont discuss now u flame, big difference and u dont even get his points (maybe that is why u flame, doh) As him below u said, not a matter of "do this every game" because they cant, and terran cant do it because the zerg for example goes allin many matches, or do some sniffy the other ones, u understand? Where do I flame anyone? Okay it might not be the most subtle post ever, but flaming? Not even close. But since I don't understand his points according to you, maybe you should explain them, and especially explain how it is different than other matchups, where exactly the same happens. (Then again apparantly I don't understand it, so maybe not exactly the same happens there, but if you don't explain it then it is hard for me to understand). But if it is only once every 5/7 games because it only happens against certain BO's, then that just sounds like a BO loss to me. How is it different than other BO losses? Why do that BO in the first place if it means you are then gonna die? And if it is only certain BOs, how is it an imbalance anyway? And sorry but your argument that it isn't every game because zerg can also go all-in doesn't make much sense. It would happen once every 5 to 7 games, if it doesn't happen more often because of zerg all-ins, then zerg would go all-in 80%+ of the games, which obviously isn't happening.
Basic problem: Game ending damage without any real commitment. If doesn´t work then terran continues with normal macro. So zergs prize from perfect defence is to be on equal ground with the terran.
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My Personal problem is, why even discuss things that won´t change ?
See I total get the discussion about hellbats for example.
But to talk about the core mechanics of a race seriously ?
You can criticize it as much as you want, but those are things that won´t change.
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EPT
