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On July 09 2013 02:23 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:13 bo1b wrote:On July 09 2013 02:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 09 2013 01:55 bo1b wrote:On July 09 2013 01:47 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 09 2013 00:29 bo1b wrote:On July 09 2013 00:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 08 2013 09:29 Foxxan wrote:On July 08 2013 07:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 08 2013 05:02 Foxxan wrote:
But your comparasions are out of hand
Lingrinbuy to medivac drop
You dont see the difference?
Medivac drop can happen everytime
Linrunbuy cant happen everytime
Its like night and day
I edit it: Look, lingrunbuy is alot about luck while medivac drop is not
medivac drop can be counted with the buildorder, with your strategy while lingrunbuy cant
its very huge difference, strategy wise, tactic wise, effeciency wise
We are talking about terran is beeing the most fun race, the other races lack alot of things, we talk about terran can micro alot, do stuff with their units compared to the other races
They can also be alot of agressive, while the other races cant
This disfavors the game in general, that is why we are taling about it, We do not wanna nerf terran to the ground so we can win, ITS not about that. Do you guys get it? How are ling runbys about luck? Maybe it's luck that the Terran (or whatever race) will have DEFENSE? Considering people who have trouble with medivacs are people who skimp on defense like spines/spores/cannon, it's not different than ling runbys, proxy zealot/dt warp ins, and other forms of harass. If you don't have the proper defense, or are in the right position, it does large damage. You make all these statements, but none of them have any basis in fact. Ling runbys based on Luck? lol you have to be kidding me. I guess Life and Soulkey is just really really lucky No basis in fact, whatabout you make 40zerglings and wanna harass at 10:00, he have supply depots at the wrong now u cant do anything Terran makes 2medivacs at 10:00, he can now drop, and i havent even mentioned if the drop will do any damage or not iam just stating the potential, dunno why you mention "large damage" its not even about that Will the drop be good, bad, will it be gamewwinning gamelosing, you dont know yet but u can still relie on this mechanic, the potential threat all game long While zergling runby is alot about luck, dont get me wrong u can still impprovise and search for opening in the defence but the way i see it is a huge difference A good zerg player will be able to find holes more than a lesser player Most Zergs depend on luck for their runbys. Never mind they have MP scouting from overseers, same as hallucinated phoniex. Then in this thread blame Blizzard? Or how about a unit that can teleport entire armies for the low price of 150m 200g (Nydus network) and creep spread which was a cosmetic/building limitation has become a movement buff!! I also love how some people talk like mothertrucking FLASH is the standard ladder Terran player... If you think Terran is so IMBA please walk a mile in our shoes first, and at least get diamond before commenting. Play more post less. Nydus network costs 150m 200g, it creates a nydus worm which also costs 100m and 100g, and is easily stopped by workers. There is a reason that nydus networks are rarely used outside of cheeses/all ins, the same cannot be said for medivac drops. What lsn has been saying I assume, is that in order to harass a terran in the early and mid stages of the game, it takes significant investment to the point of becoming an all in, or putting you massively behind. The opposite is not the case, as medivacs are a key part of pretty much every non mech army, and if you see that the drop wont have any effect you can simply turn around. 0 cost, for potentially game winning damage. A ling runby can be stopped by a supply depot wall, and since you have to build supply depots in most games this really shouldn't be much of a problem. Please stop assuming it is for cheese... The Nydus network is an important part of managing large areas the same way a subway allows a town to grow to a city then a metropolis. Think pylons instantly warping in units except for Zerg even an Ultra can fit in. Except that Zerg has mobile buildings that have the highest hp, with enough bank a Zerg can turn half of his work force 30 of 70 workers into the toughest combat units in the game with infinite HP from transfuse. Don't talk to me about broken... Zerg is already top league using only 70% of your unit's potential, don't talk to me about imba. 65% tvz in proleague, 33% winrate overall for zerg in this current osl. Top league. But I'm sure you know whats up, telling me that nydus isn't a cheese early game with a 300 gas cost minimum. I'm sure that pro players don't know whats up, you should send them an email, and tell them to spend their gas on nydus's instead of roaches/mutas in order to not die to hellbats. In any event, you can go back to your games where the zerg somehow manage to cover the entire map in creep, turn 40 of their drones into spine crawlers/spore crawlers and still have enough money to produce. Except at that stage of the game they've pretty much lost anyway due to both protoss and terrans end game compositions are better in pretty much every way to zergs. I'll stick to playing terran or random and face reality that terran is no longer the race with 45% win rates in gsl at the end of wol. Sorry, poor 2/5 trolling. So, you're saying a Zerg should just sit and bank gas after maxing out on 1/1 roach at 12min instead oh, say spend 200m 300g connecting the base with the macro hatch with the recently spotted 4th or 5th? That would allow a Zerg to instantly reinforce with 12 larvae worth of units each time and escape/transfer workers safely? That would make Zerg totally broken!!! I quite often see zergs going for a 4minute hatch into 12min roach max vs terran. Keep putting words in my mouth though, really gets the point home. I already said before that I don't think zergs necessarily that weak. Guess reading is a little too difficult huh. We ARE saying the same thing! Mechanically, Zerg are a superior race. Fast reinforcement, movement boosts tough combat buildings, bind spell, invisible spell casters (infestor) and it is showing in the results
I was being sarcastic, and the results are rapidly swinging away from them. Outside of innovation delivering the worlds biggest throw there hasn't been any results recently for zerg, and the win rates in proleague and this osl are pathetic. If a zerg needs to rely on his opponent falling apart in order to win, then its not much of a victory is it? The enormous pool of zerg players in tournaments from wol is starting to go, now that they've lost twice, and they went from having 14 zergs in the ro32 of this osl to 5. The challenger league has less zerg people qualifying then any other race as well, with protoss almost doubling zerg. Really, I don't see how you think that zerg has been doing well recently.
On the other hand, a large amount of those zergs getting booted out are probably due to them not being competitive now broodlord infestor doesn't work. Guess we'll have to see.
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On July 09 2013 02:34 BruMeister wrote:
The problem with Protoss vs mutalisks are as followed:
-Too fast for the protoss army to keep up. Once protoss leaves their base the mutalisk flock comes in and harasses the base.
-They can escape storms easily and regenerate that lost health in no time.
Solutions would be:
-Make storms do some bonus damage to air units so High Templars in the base can be more effective deterents. In terms of balance, mutalisks 9/10 are the one air unit thats massed. Doing this wouldn't effect other matchups that much. In terms of "logic" storms come from the sky so wouldn't air units be in more danger?
and/or
-Give cannons an upgrade that does splash damage to air. I've seen this idea on the forum and its a really good idea. As of now cannons don't do well against mutalisk flocks because they die so quickly and they are single target.
The problem with buffing storm against it is unless the storm kills the mutas they will simply regen. I like the idea of an upgrade for splash damage or something though, could be interesting to see.
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blizz really has to think about buffing overlord drops, nydus play, burrowed roaches and burrowed infestorplay. its really sad that the only real harrass unit is the mutalisk but if you go mutas you need 20 of them which is an insane investment.
the mentioned stuff also doesnt need big buffs but some are very needed to not make zerg turtle hardcore like in WoL again because their offensive units are bad. swarmhosts are the best example: they are slow, no AA, really bad at defending drops/WP harrass --> you need to build 1 million spores and spines and turtle or lose to drops. buffing nydus and drops would help SH offensive capabilities and then it would be possible to nerf the boring SH + mass spine turtle style.
also zerg dearly needs an anticaster spell to deal with HT. otherwise the only unit to fight HT + support is free units + turtle like BL infestor in WoL or SH + spine + hydra/viper/queen in HOTS.
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This thread is like a zerg circle-jerk where dissenting opinions are ignored under the shouts of "Terran OP"!
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On July 09 2013 02:24 catabowl wrote:
Nydus canals in BW were used so Zerg's could run Drones away/reinforce locations.
Zerg's are not using that in SC2 because they feel the creep speed is enough to offset. This is a trade-off.
As for the Nydus Network late game, If it gets a health boost, it will be used.
Nydus works differently I think. In BW it was just "a tunnel" which unloads automatically, but in SC2 it is a "cargo space" which you need to unload with a click ... usually. Thus the "new Nydus" is less practical than the old one IMO and the only advantage is not requiring creep where it surfaces (even though they have included the Overlord creep dumping ability in the game).
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On July 08 2013 22:12 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 21:53 Rabiator wrote:On July 08 2013 21:34 LSN wrote:
lol the whole discussion about ling runbies is pointless. Because terran can do helion runbies as well. But it is nothing I would even mention. Protoss can do zealot warpins and attack expansions.
Thats all smth where you fully commit your units. They wont get back out of it and die. Runbies vs 3 base terran on 10 rax get devastated by just one production cycle of these barracks and a single left behind widow mine (about the cost of a single baneling).
There is not even a reason to talk about ling runbys given the fact terran has mines, bunkers, planetaries, wall and behind all this 10+ barracks + some factories producing bio+hellbats+mines. If zerg does a huge ling runby that could overwhelm the terran base while terran army is outside, exactly this terran army can just a-click go zerg base = gg cause zerg has nothing anymore to stop it. Its just noob talking what you do there. Every ling runby that could be game deciding for the zerg is either an all in or a basetrade which is again pointless to discuss cause terran wins basetrades 100% and all-ins is something that terran has without lying 10 times as many as zergs have.
Matter of fact is that terran has 100% of what is needed in the usual army composition and can within seconds redecide if he wants to drop parts of the units and attack with the other parts frontal or use just all units for frontal attacks. Terran has about no to very few commitment for the drops at many situations and periods during the game. E.g. before mutalisks are out, when mutalisks are at the other side of the map or when mutalisk count has been reduced or when zerg does not do muta play at all. This is not whining. Its just a stupid game mechanic that instantly wins terrans games without any big efforts in highest level of play same as lucky mine shot. Any why it is stupid? Because zero commitment, zero additional costs. Just build basic army!
Why does zerg build mutalisks? Surely not to engange bio+mine because it is maybe the worst hardcounter at all for them. You solely build them to stop these drops and maybe once per game fake attack the terran base to get a few seconds of extra time and keep him in base so your other tech/upgrades finnish.
Why does terran build bio+mines+medivacs? To do everything he likes. Defense, offense, harrass, drops, hit and run or do frontal attack.
This is a proven fact and a bad mechanic in this current matchup metagame. I don't see how someone with IQ over 100 could not understand this :D The problem is that Terrans HAVE TO harrass a Zerg from the point where they have the capability to do so for the simple reason that Zerg are more mobile on the battlefield, develop a MUCH bigger economy if they are left undisturbed for some time AND have the biggest reproduction capacity of all three races. Add to this the "maphack creep spread" and you are FORCED into action as a Terran because there is nothing in the late game that can really scare Zerg. Battlecruisers are a joke with abduct and a lot of Hydras, Thors are soo slow that almost every Zerg unit can run circles around them and Ravens dont really do much for the gas they cost (twice that of an Infestor and yet they dont deal that much more damage). So I wouldnt describe the Terran choices in such "happy terms" as you do ... Terran only has one real multi-purpose unit and it happens to be their first and cheapest unit. They build it because they must NOT because they think it is fun. Did you really just say late game terran is worse then late game zerg? rofl. I don't think I've ever lost when it gets to late game vs zerg and I go sky terran.
Skyterran? Really? If that is so awesome why doesnt any progamer use it? That tactic is made pointless by Infestors, Hydralisks and Vipers AND it costs far too much to be able to defend yourself during the time you build up your awesome air army. It becomes good only after you reach a critical number, but the Zerg player must be a blind idiot to not see what you are doing.
Skyterran is a "no rush 20 silver league" strategy IMO primarily for fun games and the only "real" application for a higher level game is a Banshee rush with sufficient Banshees to stifle any anti-air production and overwhelm whatever is there already. One proleague TvT had an awesome game with three Banshees eliminating Marines and turrets left and right, but the game wasnt ended with that and eventually turned into a regular game with ground units. That game was hardly a "skyterran" game and using air against Zerg is more or less pointless apart from a few Ravens (which again isnt skyterran).
On July 08 2013 22:28 LSN wrote:
yes this was about endgame. He said zerg deathball is alot stronger than terran deatchball and therfore terran needs these early lucky strike game ending mechanics. Which is on the one hand not related to each other and on the other hand complete bullshit.
edit: he also said that ravens cost alot of gas and therefore are cost inefficient :D
I feel like I am talking with noobs on the terran side.
Can anyone come here to take the counter side who is not arguing with wrong facts? (given the fact that 5 base terran utilizes only 6 as out of 10 most of the times).
Can anyone actually realize that there is something broken if one race doesn't need any gas to play? In the beginning it is just unimportant, in the end it is a disadvantage to gather gas (having 5k overgas on 6 gas after 40 minutes of play). Rather kill these scv and build a few BC more.
Can anyone actually recognize that this is a mechanic ZERG actually needed to be competitive in lategame instead of terran?
unbelievable how biased these terrans are. Not even able to admit things that are obviously totally broken and an actual no go in game design.
Sure ... bringing up BCs makes your post really credible. This isnt WoL anymore and Zerg have VIPERs with ABDUCT and if you pull the BCs on top of a bunch of "triggerhappy Hydralisks" they die pretty easily.
For 200 gas you could build 1 Raven or 2 Infestors. Which of those choices would you prefer? The "once in a blue moon can be evaded since the targets are marked bright red seeker Missle" or the "two energy regeneration for the price of one with the power to lock down enemy units"? You can outmicro the seeker missile, but once players have learned to aim the Fungal missile it cant really be dodged (mostly because there is too much going on in a battle due to Blizzards awful game concept of mass battles from the mid game).
Explanation: For energy units the number of units is really important, because "more units = more energy regeneration in total = more spells useable". This is one of the core criticisms of Blizzards SC2 design I have, because the gigantic economy and larvae stockpiling allows players to build 25+ Infestors in just 2-3 minutes and that was the real reason why "instant Fungal" was terrible ... you always had one because of the huge number of Infestors and crowd control spells are extremely powerful.
You say that "early harrass" and "lategame army" are not related in any way and that my comment about it was "complete bullshit". Well if I harrass you early on you will not get to your late game army in sufficient numbers and thus I would have an advantage. Go on and play an "I turtle only as Terran until I have my 200 supply army" versus a good Zerg who will harrass you all the time while expanding .... try it out if Terran "late game army" can really withstand that endless reproduction and win the game. Early harrassment is NECESSARY because the most useful Terran army is bio and the cornerstone of this is a lousy tier 1 unit (which is very good, but not really a match against Infestors and Banelings and endless reproduction. Mech is even more pointless, because you only ahve ONE SHOT at winning and cant ever lose anything ... and "Skyterran" is REALLY pointless. The crux of it is that SC2 is quite a lot about mobility and neither mech nor skyterran have that and Zerg can really easily just attack your bases and production ... which totally screws you over. That is the reason why you HAVE TO keep Zerg economy low from the start.
@LSN:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 08 2013 23:17 LSN wrote:
so this is for free right?
no it is not
this requires no micro right?
no it does require alot of actions to execute this
so once having done this with the spines/spores you have from then on always free additional supply available like the terran?
no you have to repeat it after every little engagement when you lose a few units.
This is a viable mechanic in a fast paced game where actions are all around the map?
no it is not, you usually don't have the time to bother with spines/spores when fighting against heavy attack terran that is on 20 scv + mules only so you can't take advantage from it when it is needed the most.
More units is better for zerg?
yes, but also means more kills for lucky shot mine on average ;D
All questions answered? Errr ... what are you talking about? LSN: "so this is for free right?" Rabiator: WHAT is for free? LSN: "this requires no micro right?" Rabiator: WHAT requires no micro? ... Learn to make decent posts which make sense use quotes and generally do not require the reader to go back 1-2 pages and take a guess which other post you were referring to. This thread has several discussions going on at the same time if you havent noticed. It seems there has been an influx of "low post count bad quality mass posters" in this thread since both you and Foxxan have the same bad style. Read my signature and then THINK about it.
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On July 09 2013 02:49 Decendos wrote:
blizz really has to think about buffing overlord drops, nydus play, burrowed roaches and burrowed infestorplay. its really sad that the only real harrass unit is the mutalisk but if you go mutas you need 20 of them which is an insane investment.
the mentioned stuff also doesnt need big buffs but some are very needed to not make zerg turtle hardcore like in WoL again because their offensive units are bad. swarmhosts are the best example: they are slow, no AA, really bad at defending drops/WP harrass --> you need to build 1 million spores and spines and turtle or lose to drops. buffing nydus and drops would help SH offensive capabilities and then it would be possible to nerf the boring SH + mass spine turtle style.
also zerg dearly needs an anticaster spell to deal with HT. otherwise the only unit to fight HT + support is free units + turtle like BL infestor in WoL or SH + spine + hydra/viper/queen in HOTS.
Those things are still good, people just dont use them because they are lazy and have gotten used to winning the easy way. The amount of static defenses which many progamers build amounts to zero or at most to "a pitiful amount of one right in the middle of the mineral line where it doesnt reach or prevent anything". The "problem" of a Zerg drop is that it has an "all-in" character mostly because retreating seems hard. Terrans have Marines and Protoss have Stalkers to shoot down those Overlords which arent really that fast (even with upgrade) AND which are supply carriers. Losing them is not a good thing, because you need to spend a larva to reproduce a non-fighting unit.
Nydus worms are used rarely because of the cost involved, but Starbuck played a really awesome game against Genius in the recent WCS qualifier where he got his spot for challenger league. TLO had a neat "Infestor + Nydus" combo where he lobs some Infested Terrans into a main base to defend the Nydus exit there from workers; this works great against greedy players who have walled themseves in and dont have many units to fight. In short people are lazy and not creative enough to use them, but there is no need to buff them.
I generally dont like "buffing X is the answer" because it means that there is more power added to the game ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere to counter this ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere ... I hope you get the meaning.
Zerg do NOT need an anti-caster caster, because HTs are slow as a slug and you can simply kill the base instead of killing the army. Use an Overlord drop while you are at it ... if you are lucky the Protoss is a miser and didnt build many cannons, so burrow would be a tremendous help to prolong that "dude, check your base for Zerg units" part of the game which usually pulls back the whole army. Protoss usually warp in Zealots to deal with harrassment and those are melee units, which can be abused by clever positioning.
tl;dr
The tools are sufficiently powerful, people just have to use them.
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On July 09 2013 13:07 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:24 catabowl wrote:
Nydus canals in BW were used so Zerg's could run Drones away/reinforce locations.
Zerg's are not using that in SC2 because they feel the creep speed is enough to offset. This is a trade-off.
As for the Nydus Network late game, If it gets a health boost, it will be used. Nydus works differently I think. In BW it was just "a tunnel" which unloads automatically, but in SC2 it is a "cargo space" which you need to unload with a click ... usually. Thus the "new Nydus" is less practical than the old one IMO and the only advantage is not requiring creep where it surfaces (even though they have included the Overlord creep dumping ability in the game).
the biggest disadvantage of nydus as a transportation tool is how long it takes to unload an army.
it takes about the same time that it would take to, you know, just walk there.
nydus as harasser? workers kill it. you know a harassment tool is bad when the counter to it is workers.
only viable use of nydus is for weird queen based allins to get them to the other side of the map.
overall: nydus is horribly designed and should be redesigned since beta.
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Reducing nydus unload time or giving another hive-tech overlord speed buff doesn't sound that crazy.
Of course you can always just build two nyduses. That would reduce the unload time.
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On July 10 2013 01:34 DoubleReed wrote:
Reducing nydus unload time or giving another hive-tech overlord speed buff doesn't sound that crazy.
Of course you always just build two nyduses. That would reduce the unload time.
No, Nydus is just stupid the way it works and shouldn't get buffed. Basically transporting your whole (ground) army from somewhere to anywhere on the map is way too strong. That's why they put like a thousand drawbacks on it - long upload/unload times, build time, very low HP, high cost, the crying when it emerges.
Losing against a Nydus right now means that you didn't play well. Making it so that you can lose to it despite playing well would just make it overpowered.
Instead, they should have redesigned it a long time ago or given the nydus network more utility besides spawning nydus worms (like they intented for HotS, but then cut). Or cut it as a whole as noone really likes it.
For Overlord drops, it is a similar kind of beef. I think a tiny little speed buff wouldn't be gamebreaking, but overall the problem is once again how one upgrade allows you to transport an entire army around and, therefore, those drops have to be balanced for situations like massive doomdrop allins - that are decent tools against lowmobility opponents like Protoss and Mech already and can't be buffed for that reason.
They should leave the drops as they are and consider the nyuds to become more of a "dropship" tool. + Show Spoiler +For example it emerges very fast compared to now (so it can't be stopped by workers or few stray units, you'd have to have real defense close), unloads a certain amount of units very fast and then retreats into the ground. So basically a costly one way ticket for a maximum amount of units.
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On July 09 2013 14:07 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:49 Decendos wrote:
blizz really has to think about buffing overlord drops, nydus play, burrowed roaches and burrowed infestorplay. its really sad that the only real harrass unit is the mutalisk but if you go mutas you need 20 of them which is an insane investment.
the mentioned stuff also doesnt need big buffs but some are very needed to not make zerg turtle hardcore like in WoL again because their offensive units are bad. swarmhosts are the best example: they are slow, no AA, really bad at defending drops/WP harrass --> you need to build 1 million spores and spines and turtle or lose to drops. buffing nydus and drops would help SH offensive capabilities and then it would be possible to nerf the boring SH + mass spine turtle style.
also zerg dearly needs an anticaster spell to deal with HT. otherwise the only unit to fight HT + support is free units + turtle like BL infestor in WoL or SH + spine + hydra/viper/queen in HOTS. Those things are still good, people just dont use them because they are lazy and have gotten used to winning the easy way. The amount of static defenses which many progamers build amounts to zero or at most to "a pitiful amount of one right in the middle of the mineral line where it doesnt reach or prevent anything". The "problem" of a Zerg drop is that it has an "all-in" character mostly because retreating seems hard. Terrans have Marines and Protoss have Stalkers to shoot down those Overlords which arent really that fast (even with upgrade) AND which are supply carriers. Losing them is not a good thing, because you need to spend a larva to reproduce a non-fighting unit. Nydus worms are used rarely because of the cost involved, but Starbuck played a really awesome game against Genius in the recent WCS qualifier where he got his spot for challenger league. TLO had a neat "Infestor + Nydus" combo where he lobs some Infested Terrans into a main base to defend the Nydus exit there from workers; this works great against greedy players who have walled themseves in and dont have many units to fight. In short people are lazy and not creative enough to use them, but there is no need to buff them. I generally dont like "buffing X is the answer" because it means that there is more power added to the game ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere to counter this ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere ... I hope you get the meaning. Zerg do NOT need an anti-caster caster, because HTs are slow as a slug and you can simply kill the base instead of killing the army. Use an Overlord drop while you are at it ... if you are lucky the Protoss is a miser and didnt build many cannons, so burrow would be a tremendous help to prolong that "dude, check your base for Zerg units" part of the game which usually pulls back the whole army. Protoss usually warp in Zealots to deal with harrassment and those are melee units, which can be abused by clever positioning. tl;dr The tools are sufficiently powerful, people just have to use them.
so all the zergs performing badly in OSL, proleague etc. should just stop being lazy and use overpriced nydus and HT-speed ovidrop which even gold level players are able to pull worker against because you see it miles ahead? yeah go on and please tell them they should stop going for easy wins (which they dont get last weeks as seen) and use bad mechanics of the zerg race which are bad and WAY underused (every 100th-1000th game maybe used) since 4 years now. top level pros should listen more to you...really hope they read it.
sorry for the harsh tone but every 2nd post from you is facepalm.
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On July 10 2013 01:57 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 14:07 Rabiator wrote:On July 09 2013 02:49 Decendos wrote:
blizz really has to think about buffing overlord drops, nydus play, burrowed roaches and burrowed infestorplay. its really sad that the only real harrass unit is the mutalisk but if you go mutas you need 20 of them which is an insane investment.
the mentioned stuff also doesnt need big buffs but some are very needed to not make zerg turtle hardcore like in WoL again because their offensive units are bad. swarmhosts are the best example: they are slow, no AA, really bad at defending drops/WP harrass --> you need to build 1 million spores and spines and turtle or lose to drops. buffing nydus and drops would help SH offensive capabilities and then it would be possible to nerf the boring SH + mass spine turtle style.
also zerg dearly needs an anticaster spell to deal with HT. otherwise the only unit to fight HT + support is free units + turtle like BL infestor in WoL or SH + spine + hydra/viper/queen in HOTS. Those things are still good, people just dont use them because they are lazy and have gotten used to winning the easy way. The amount of static defenses which many progamers build amounts to zero or at most to "a pitiful amount of one right in the middle of the mineral line where it doesnt reach or prevent anything". The "problem" of a Zerg drop is that it has an "all-in" character mostly because retreating seems hard. Terrans have Marines and Protoss have Stalkers to shoot down those Overlords which arent really that fast (even with upgrade) AND which are supply carriers. Losing them is not a good thing, because you need to spend a larva to reproduce a non-fighting unit. Nydus worms are used rarely because of the cost involved, but Starbuck played a really awesome game against Genius in the recent WCS qualifier where he got his spot for challenger league. TLO had a neat "Infestor + Nydus" combo where he lobs some Infested Terrans into a main base to defend the Nydus exit there from workers; this works great against greedy players who have walled themseves in and dont have many units to fight. In short people are lazy and not creative enough to use them, but there is no need to buff them. I generally dont like "buffing X is the answer" because it means that there is more power added to the game ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere to counter this ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere ... I hope you get the meaning. Zerg do NOT need an anti-caster caster, because HTs are slow as a slug and you can simply kill the base instead of killing the army. Use an Overlord drop while you are at it ... if you are lucky the Protoss is a miser and didnt build many cannons, so burrow would be a tremendous help to prolong that "dude, check your base for Zerg units" part of the game which usually pulls back the whole army. Protoss usually warp in Zealots to deal with harrassment and those are melee units, which can be abused by clever positioning. tl;dr The tools are sufficiently powerful, people just have to use them. so all the zergs performing badly in OSL, proleague etc. should just stop being lazy and use overpriced nydus and HT-speed ovidrop which even gold level players are able to pull worker against because you see it miles ahead? yeah go on and please tell them they should stop going for easy wins (which they dont get last weeks as seen) and use bad mechanics of the zerg race which are bad and WAY underused (every 100th-1000th game maybe used) since 4 years now. top level pros should listen more to you...really hope they read it. sorry for the harsh tone but every 2nd post from you is facepalm.
Yes! I mean come on, they bank sometimes close to 5K+ min and 1K+ gas have fully set up their only mining base but can't find the resources to connect that mining base with the main base while they were doing a push at the enemy's front.
Don't get me started about when they eventually lose that engagement and lose that mining base because the 60lings and infestors couldn't get there in time!
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On July 10 2013 11:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 01:57 Decendos wrote:On July 09 2013 14:07 Rabiator wrote:On July 09 2013 02:49 Decendos wrote:
blizz really has to think about buffing overlord drops, nydus play, burrowed roaches and burrowed infestorplay. its really sad that the only real harrass unit is the mutalisk but if you go mutas you need 20 of them which is an insane investment.
the mentioned stuff also doesnt need big buffs but some are very needed to not make zerg turtle hardcore like in WoL again because their offensive units are bad. swarmhosts are the best example: they are slow, no AA, really bad at defending drops/WP harrass --> you need to build 1 million spores and spines and turtle or lose to drops. buffing nydus and drops would help SH offensive capabilities and then it would be possible to nerf the boring SH + mass spine turtle style.
also zerg dearly needs an anticaster spell to deal with HT. otherwise the only unit to fight HT + support is free units + turtle like BL infestor in WoL or SH + spine + hydra/viper/queen in HOTS. Those things are still good, people just dont use them because they are lazy and have gotten used to winning the easy way. The amount of static defenses which many progamers build amounts to zero or at most to "a pitiful amount of one right in the middle of the mineral line where it doesnt reach or prevent anything". The "problem" of a Zerg drop is that it has an "all-in" character mostly because retreating seems hard. Terrans have Marines and Protoss have Stalkers to shoot down those Overlords which arent really that fast (even with upgrade) AND which are supply carriers. Losing them is not a good thing, because you need to spend a larva to reproduce a non-fighting unit. Nydus worms are used rarely because of the cost involved, but Starbuck played a really awesome game against Genius in the recent WCS qualifier where he got his spot for challenger league. TLO had a neat "Infestor + Nydus" combo where he lobs some Infested Terrans into a main base to defend the Nydus exit there from workers; this works great against greedy players who have walled themseves in and dont have many units to fight. In short people are lazy and not creative enough to use them, but there is no need to buff them. I generally dont like "buffing X is the answer" because it means that there is more power added to the game ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere to counter this ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere ... I hope you get the meaning. Zerg do NOT need an anti-caster caster, because HTs are slow as a slug and you can simply kill the base instead of killing the army. Use an Overlord drop while you are at it ... if you are lucky the Protoss is a miser and didnt build many cannons, so burrow would be a tremendous help to prolong that "dude, check your base for Zerg units" part of the game which usually pulls back the whole army. Protoss usually warp in Zealots to deal with harrassment and those are melee units, which can be abused by clever positioning. tl;dr The tools are sufficiently powerful, people just have to use them. so all the zergs performing badly in OSL, proleague etc. should just stop being lazy and use overpriced nydus and HT-speed ovidrop which even gold level players are able to pull worker against because you see it miles ahead? yeah go on and please tell them they should stop going for easy wins (which they dont get last weeks as seen) and use bad mechanics of the zerg race which are bad and WAY underused (every 100th-1000th game maybe used) since 4 years now. top level pros should listen more to you...really hope they read it. sorry for the harsh tone but every 2nd post from you is facepalm. Yes! I mean come on, they bank sometimes close to 5K+ min and 1K+ gas have fully set up their only mining base but can't find the resources to connect that mining base with the main base while they were doing a push at the enemy's front. Don't get me started about when they eventually lose that engagement and lose that mining base because the 60lings and infestors couldn't get there in time!
1k gas is not that much for a zerg remax..
And it's not like having a nydus network can stop drops and u are risking the network getting sniped itself
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On July 10 2013 01:57 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 14:07 Rabiator wrote:On July 09 2013 02:49 Decendos wrote:
blizz really has to think about buffing overlord drops, nydus play, burrowed roaches and burrowed infestorplay. its really sad that the only real harrass unit is the mutalisk but if you go mutas you need 20 of them which is an insane investment.
the mentioned stuff also doesnt need big buffs but some are very needed to not make zerg turtle hardcore like in WoL again because their offensive units are bad. swarmhosts are the best example: they are slow, no AA, really bad at defending drops/WP harrass --> you need to build 1 million spores and spines and turtle or lose to drops. buffing nydus and drops would help SH offensive capabilities and then it would be possible to nerf the boring SH + mass spine turtle style.
also zerg dearly needs an anticaster spell to deal with HT. otherwise the only unit to fight HT + support is free units + turtle like BL infestor in WoL or SH + spine + hydra/viper/queen in HOTS. Those things are still good, people just dont use them because they are lazy and have gotten used to winning the easy way. The amount of static defenses which many progamers build amounts to zero or at most to "a pitiful amount of one right in the middle of the mineral line where it doesnt reach or prevent anything". The "problem" of a Zerg drop is that it has an "all-in" character mostly because retreating seems hard. Terrans have Marines and Protoss have Stalkers to shoot down those Overlords which arent really that fast (even with upgrade) AND which are supply carriers. Losing them is not a good thing, because you need to spend a larva to reproduce a non-fighting unit. Nydus worms are used rarely because of the cost involved, but Starbuck played a really awesome game against Genius in the recent WCS qualifier where he got his spot for challenger league. TLO had a neat "Infestor + Nydus" combo where he lobs some Infested Terrans into a main base to defend the Nydus exit there from workers; this works great against greedy players who have walled themseves in and dont have many units to fight. In short people are lazy and not creative enough to use them, but there is no need to buff them. I generally dont like "buffing X is the answer" because it means that there is more power added to the game ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere to counter this ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere ... I hope you get the meaning. Zerg do NOT need an anti-caster caster, because HTs are slow as a slug and you can simply kill the base instead of killing the army. Use an Overlord drop while you are at it ... if you are lucky the Protoss is a miser and didnt build many cannons, so burrow would be a tremendous help to prolong that "dude, check your base for Zerg units" part of the game which usually pulls back the whole army. Protoss usually warp in Zealots to deal with harrassment and those are melee units, which can be abused by clever positioning. tl;dr The tools are sufficiently powerful, people just have to use them. so all the zergs performing badly in OSL, proleague etc. should just stop being lazy and use overpriced nydus and HT-speed ovidrop which even gold level players are able to pull worker against because you see it miles ahead? yeah go on and please tell them they should stop going for easy wins (which they dont get last weeks as seen) and use bad mechanics of the zerg race which are bad and WAY underused (every 100th-1000th game maybe used) since 4 years now. top level pros should listen more to you...really hope they read it. sorry for the harsh tone but every 2nd post from you is facepalm.
I was just commenting on the "boohoo, we want more stuff for less" suggestions.
If you have any problem about a rapidly shifting distribution between the races you might want to ask Blizzard to tone down the aggression of the whole game a bit. It is my firm belief that this is causing random and "flavour of the month" tactics to be the winners instead of the better ones. The game has become too volatile - and thus random / coinflippy - by now, but Blizzard doesnt seem to stop accelerating the pace even more.
I am slowly getting used to being insulted by almost everyone else for being of the opinion that SLOWER is BETTER (because it allows for and requires more control). Too bad no one argues with the points I make ...
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On July 10 2013 11:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 01:57 Decendos wrote:On July 09 2013 14:07 Rabiator wrote:On July 09 2013 02:49 Decendos wrote:
blizz really has to think about buffing overlord drops, nydus play, burrowed roaches and burrowed infestorplay. its really sad that the only real harrass unit is the mutalisk but if you go mutas you need 20 of them which is an insane investment.
the mentioned stuff also doesnt need big buffs but some are very needed to not make zerg turtle hardcore like in WoL again because their offensive units are bad. swarmhosts are the best example: they are slow, no AA, really bad at defending drops/WP harrass --> you need to build 1 million spores and spines and turtle or lose to drops. buffing nydus and drops would help SH offensive capabilities and then it would be possible to nerf the boring SH + mass spine turtle style.
also zerg dearly needs an anticaster spell to deal with HT. otherwise the only unit to fight HT + support is free units + turtle like BL infestor in WoL or SH + spine + hydra/viper/queen in HOTS. Those things are still good, people just dont use them because they are lazy and have gotten used to winning the easy way. The amount of static defenses which many progamers build amounts to zero or at most to "a pitiful amount of one right in the middle of the mineral line where it doesnt reach or prevent anything". The "problem" of a Zerg drop is that it has an "all-in" character mostly because retreating seems hard. Terrans have Marines and Protoss have Stalkers to shoot down those Overlords which arent really that fast (even with upgrade) AND which are supply carriers. Losing them is not a good thing, because you need to spend a larva to reproduce a non-fighting unit. Nydus worms are used rarely because of the cost involved, but Starbuck played a really awesome game against Genius in the recent WCS qualifier where he got his spot for challenger league. TLO had a neat "Infestor + Nydus" combo where he lobs some Infested Terrans into a main base to defend the Nydus exit there from workers; this works great against greedy players who have walled themseves in and dont have many units to fight. In short people are lazy and not creative enough to use them, but there is no need to buff them. I generally dont like "buffing X is the answer" because it means that there is more power added to the game ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere to counter this ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere ... I hope you get the meaning. Zerg do NOT need an anti-caster caster, because HTs are slow as a slug and you can simply kill the base instead of killing the army. Use an Overlord drop while you are at it ... if you are lucky the Protoss is a miser and didnt build many cannons, so burrow would be a tremendous help to prolong that "dude, check your base for Zerg units" part of the game which usually pulls back the whole army. Protoss usually warp in Zealots to deal with harrassment and those are melee units, which can be abused by clever positioning. tl;dr The tools are sufficiently powerful, people just have to use them. so all the zergs performing badly in OSL, proleague etc. should just stop being lazy and use overpriced nydus and HT-speed ovidrop which even gold level players are able to pull worker against because you see it miles ahead? yeah go on and please tell them they should stop going for easy wins (which they dont get last weeks as seen) and use bad mechanics of the zerg race which are bad and WAY underused (every 100th-1000th game maybe used) since 4 years now. top level pros should listen more to you...really hope they read it. sorry for the harsh tone but every 2nd post from you is facepalm. Yes! I mean come on, they bank sometimes close to 5K+ min and 1K+ gas have fully set up their only mining base but can't find the resources to connect that mining base with the main base while they were doing a push at the enemy's front. Don't get me started about when they eventually lose that engagement and lose that mining base because the 60lings and infestors couldn't get there in time!
thats exactly the point! nydus unload so slow that by the time your 60 lings get unloaded 1 by 1 the 8 rine + medivac drop killed your base anyway or even more so...your lings are just a lot faster running there. thats why you dont have to change nydus cost...let it stay expensive but for gods sake after 4 years where you see its useless (except some all ins in ZvT) its time to make it worth its cost. same for ovidrop. let it stay expensive and long upgrade so all ins arent buffed but make it worth it by increasing ovispeed (like medivac speed and WP speed which are introduced because people got a lot better at defending drops mechanically over time...same argument goes for HT-speed "speedovis").
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On July 08 2013 14:49 plogamer wrote:
Stopping drops is as hard as raising depots in TvX matchups. Terran army is balanced around drops. Terran deathball is the weakest for that reason! Sorry, but I don't see a shred of evidence to support this claim. My guess would be that Terran deathball is the strongest and Terrans don't incorporate units like ravens, battlecruisers and ghosts into their play because there's no need and they can win matches with just marines and marauders.
Imagine how stupid the game would seem if Protoss could win every match with just zealots, sentries and warp prisms.
You could nerf Terran in all sorts of ways, and their win rate would fall behind for a month, but always would catch up eventually, simply because they have so many options they haven't explored.
A sign of the game being imbalanced is when one race has a ton of luxuries (sensor towers, WTF?) and padding that it doesn't need to maintain its win rate.
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On July 11 2013 00:45 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 14:49 plogamer wrote:
Stopping drops is as hard as raising depots in TvX matchups. Terran army is balanced around drops. Terran deathball is the weakest for that reason! Sorry, but I don't see a shred of evidence to support this claim. My guess would be that Terran deathball is the strongest and Terrans don't incorporate units like ravens, battlecruisers and ghosts into their play because there's no need and they can win matches with just marines and marauders. Imagine how stupid the game would seem if Protoss could win every match with just zealots, sentries and warp prisms. You could nerf Terran in all sorts of ways, and their win rate would fall behind for a month, but always would catch up eventually, simply because they have so many options they haven't explored. A sign of the game being imbalanced is when one race has a ton of luxuries (sensor towers, WTF?) and padding that it doesn't need to maintain its win rate.
Good luck playing with a raven, BC, ghost "deathball".
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can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit?
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On July 11 2013 01:55 Wobaq wrote:
can we all just agree TvP is total bullshit?
yes sure, imo the core completely screwed the mechanic of early pressure vs late game weakness of tvp. The threat of terran cheeses is almost completely gone and protoss can play really greedily until the 2 medivac timing. In my opinion the nexus cannon lasts too long and costs too little for early pressure to pay of. Either the core needs to be nerved or lategame tvp must get more balanced.
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On July 10 2013 11:16 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 01:57 Decendos wrote:On July 09 2013 14:07 Rabiator wrote:On July 09 2013 02:49 Decendos wrote:
blizz really has to think about buffing overlord drops, nydus play, burrowed roaches and burrowed infestorplay. its really sad that the only real harrass unit is the mutalisk but if you go mutas you need 20 of them which is an insane investment.
the mentioned stuff also doesnt need big buffs but some are very needed to not make zerg turtle hardcore like in WoL again because their offensive units are bad. swarmhosts are the best example: they are slow, no AA, really bad at defending drops/WP harrass --> you need to build 1 million spores and spines and turtle or lose to drops. buffing nydus and drops would help SH offensive capabilities and then it would be possible to nerf the boring SH + mass spine turtle style.
also zerg dearly needs an anticaster spell to deal with HT. otherwise the only unit to fight HT + support is free units + turtle like BL infestor in WoL or SH + spine + hydra/viper/queen in HOTS. Those things are still good, people just dont use them because they are lazy and have gotten used to winning the easy way. The amount of static defenses which many progamers build amounts to zero or at most to "a pitiful amount of one right in the middle of the mineral line where it doesnt reach or prevent anything". The "problem" of a Zerg drop is that it has an "all-in" character mostly because retreating seems hard. Terrans have Marines and Protoss have Stalkers to shoot down those Overlords which arent really that fast (even with upgrade) AND which are supply carriers. Losing them is not a good thing, because you need to spend a larva to reproduce a non-fighting unit. Nydus worms are used rarely because of the cost involved, but Starbuck played a really awesome game against Genius in the recent WCS qualifier where he got his spot for challenger league. TLO had a neat "Infestor + Nydus" combo where he lobs some Infested Terrans into a main base to defend the Nydus exit there from workers; this works great against greedy players who have walled themseves in and dont have many units to fight. In short people are lazy and not creative enough to use them, but there is no need to buff them. I generally dont like "buffing X is the answer" because it means that there is more power added to the game ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere to counter this ... which might require more power to be added elsewhere ... I hope you get the meaning. Zerg do NOT need an anti-caster caster, because HTs are slow as a slug and you can simply kill the base instead of killing the army. Use an Overlord drop while you are at it ... if you are lucky the Protoss is a miser and didnt build many cannons, so burrow would be a tremendous help to prolong that "dude, check your base for Zerg units" part of the game which usually pulls back the whole army. Protoss usually warp in Zealots to deal with harrassment and those are melee units, which can be abused by clever positioning. tl;dr The tools are sufficiently powerful, people just have to use them. so all the zergs performing badly in OSL, proleague etc. should just stop being lazy and use overpriced nydus and HT-speed ovidrop which even gold level players are able to pull worker against because you see it miles ahead? yeah go on and please tell them they should stop going for easy wins (which they dont get last weeks as seen) and use bad mechanics of the zerg race which are bad and WAY underused (every 100th-1000th game maybe used) since 4 years now. top level pros should listen more to you...really hope they read it. sorry for the harsh tone but every 2nd post from you is facepalm. Yes! I mean come on, they bank sometimes close to 5K+ min and 1K+ gas have fully set up their only mining base but can't find the resources to connect that mining base with the main base while they were doing a push at the enemy's front. Don't get me started about when they eventually lose that engagement and lose that mining base because the 60lings and infestors couldn't get there in time!
In all honesty, running with 60 zerglings is much faster than using nydus.
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EPT
