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On July 28 2012 11:59 Belial88 wrote:
Shiori...
I don't know anything about TvP. I'm a 900 points masters zerg.
But I have not seen a single terran win against Toss when Toss has *secured* (not taken, but *secured) 3 bases. If Toss is able to get a fourth, just 100% Terran never wins, although I'd say really that 100% of the time, Terran loses if Toss can get 3 bases.
It's just what I've seen, I'm sure player skill and a lot is going on, but a lot of these same games also had both players going evenly into the lategame. I just never, ever have seen a terran win a game when it went into lategame with Toss securing his third safely. All of the terran wins are when terran closes the game, usually when Toss is trying to take his third.
This is going by every single TvP at gomtv for the last 2 months.
On a side note, I think terran has always been underrepresented on ladder, but I personally feel like I run into terrans a lot more, with sc2gears saying I run into terrans more than I did last season (to the guy saying no one plays terran).
Erm, I guess we must have been watching different games, lol. I've seen Toss lose on 3base plenty of times. It's actually pretty common.
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On July 28 2012 11:07 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 09:07 LavaLava wrote:On July 28 2012 07:05 NewbieOne wrote:On July 28 2012 03:35 Mistakes wrote:
I have a question to you Terran players out there:
Why don't more of you mech against Zerg?
Every Terran player that I have played on the ladder (Master NA) that has macro meched has been impossible-feeling to deal with. The standard marine-tank can still be done, but it's been figured out. The pure bio style is ok, but you have to be killing bases with it to make it viable. However the macro mech style is deadly, no matter if the Zerg quad expands, or if the Terran is stuck on 2 bases. With Hellion harass, Banshee harass, Thor/Tank/Hellion/Banshee push all denying fast tech to BL the only options seem to be Roach/Ling/Infestor. Which does ok if you catch the Terran unsieged and you have a HUGE army. It just seems extremely hard (at least for me) to deal with, and I barely see any Terrans doing it.
Why no mech? :o I only ever go mech (too clumsy for marine splitting etc.) and TvZ is probably my best matchup. On a different note, I've just been to an online store with SC2 t-shirts that I won't name. Pro force fields. Sixpool. Banes. Mothership rush. Nothing from Terran. People think the flashy force field spam and chain fungal is pro. Sure, it takes skill to do right but the "pro" factor is associated with the flashy marketing value (something which e.g. EMP did not have). Flashy toys get marketing impact, Terran loses out on this. Man, I hate that foreigners don't give a shit about Terran. Honestly, game balance is peanuts to the shitty attitude that exists in this community. People weirdly hate Terran players very consistently across a lot of websites- if you browse SCReddit's new section for instance, you'll see a lot of buried threads with the word "Terran" in the title, despite being completely unoffensive- players, streamers, builds, strategy questions, normal stuff. 0 points. People are extremely biased and immature in this way. The root cause is probably a combination of the post-release overpoweredness, and the race's design, which heavily rewards cheap crap while moderately punishing macro games. I think people just grew to hate Terran players personally and never gave it up. It's really disheartening. There's also been a TON of Zerg and Protoss general lesson/coaching threads and anti-Terran casters (like Tastosis). A lot of feedback and analysis in pro matches focus on Zerg and Protoss build orders and Terran micro. Guess which one is easier to write down and use as a learning noob?
Yeah, I really like their casting, but every time Artosis starts theorycrafting Terran...ugh. When he talks about Zerg and Protoss he actually says really interesting stuff, but his ideas of what Terran should be doing tend to not find much consensus with Terran pros.
Mech TvP etc etc.
Blizzard is putting the Warhound in the game to force TvP mech to be viable- and at the current state of that unit, it's cost effective versus Stalkers without the missiles, can kite zealots, and is actually good enough to be useful versus Zerg. Regardless of the final values on the Warhound, the intended message is clear: TvP with the assumption of a Meching terran, is more balanced with this stupidly strong unit thrown in than it is currently.
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On July 28 2012 12:13 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 11:59 Belial88 wrote:
Shiori...
I don't know anything about TvP. I'm a 900 points masters zerg.
But I have not seen a single terran win against Toss when Toss has *secured* (not taken, but *secured) 3 bases. If Toss is able to get a fourth, just 100% Terran never wins, although I'd say really that 100% of the time, Terran loses if Toss can get 3 bases.
It's just what I've seen, I'm sure player skill and a lot is going on, but a lot of these same games also had both players going evenly into the lategame. I just never, ever have seen a terran win a game when it went into lategame with Toss securing his third safely. All of the terran wins are when terran closes the game, usually when Toss is trying to take his third.
This is going by every single TvP at gomtv for the last 2 months.
On a side note, I think terran has always been underrepresented on ladder, but I personally feel like I run into terrans a lot more, with sc2gears saying I run into terrans more than I did last season (to the guy saying no one plays terran). Erm, I guess we must have been watching different games, lol. I've seen Toss lose on 3base plenty of times. It's actually pretty common.
Number of replays supplied by you from the pool specified in the post you quote:
0
You said all claims should be supported by replays. He quoted his replay pool. Should be easy enough for you to post a game.
Though please, I would appreciate, if you don't pick one where the toss made a horrible horrible mistake.
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On July 28 2012 12:13 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 11:59 Belial88 wrote:
Shiori...
I don't know anything about TvP. I'm a 900 points masters zerg.
But I have not seen a single terran win against Toss when Toss has *secured* (not taken, but *secured) 3 bases. If Toss is able to get a fourth, just 100% Terran never wins, although I'd say really that 100% of the time, Terran loses if Toss can get 3 bases.
It's just what I've seen, I'm sure player skill and a lot is going on, but a lot of these same games also had both players going evenly into the lategame. I just never, ever have seen a terran win a game when it went into lategame with Toss securing his third safely. All of the terran wins are when terran closes the game, usually when Toss is trying to take his third.
This is going by every single TvP at gomtv for the last 2 months.
On a side note, I think terran has always been underrepresented on ladder, but I personally feel like I run into terrans a lot more, with sc2gears saying I run into terrans more than I did last season (to the guy saying no one plays terran). Erm, I guess we must have been watching different games, lol. I've seen Toss lose on 3base plenty of times. It's actually pretty common.
yea please tell me which game is like this, where terran wins lategame tvp.
Like I said, i don't know anything about tvp, I have no thoughts on the matter, really. i'm a zerg who's last series he really watched was thorzain vs naniwa tsl3. But I'm just saying, out of recently skimming VODs at gomtv of TvP, terran simply never wins against Toss as long as toss can get his 3 bases up and secured. I'd say it's 100% of games really... but just to be safe, I'll just say that 100% of the time Toss secures his fourth, he always wins in TvP, although I really can't recall toss ever losing if he can secure his 3 bases safely, and that terran only wins by ending the game before toss secures his third (usually toss dies trying to secure his third, but sometimes before then, ie all-ins, whatever).
I think it's why, in my opinion, it's just the most boring match-up. From a spectator's point of view, it feels like terran has absolutely no chance to win unless they do a coinflip pressure/all-in that toss doesn't scout or control against. Honestly, it seems like the match-up seems balanced, terran is just sort of a race that can exploit holes in other races, but it really seems lategame tvp is hopeless for terran and he has to end the game. Again, this is from a spectator's pov, not from someone qualified on balance. It seems like t/p win evenly. But I just don't see any sort of variance in toss play, they seem to always do the same thing because it just works so well, 2 base robo or 2 base twilight into third. No fast third play, no sort of pressure play, no sort of weird tech or compositions... i guess that's probably a design flaw too. But i haven't seen a stargate in tvp in a looong time.
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Tvp lategame being impossible is a myth. I believe in the recent IPL TAC Taeja has show cased how that's true.
TvP involves having the right composition as after awhile it becomes very hard for both sides to effectively harass. (Unless we talk about SC's insane drop heavy style).
In the late game blanket emps and adequate vikings will win it. The superlategame scary protoss army is one that has phased out zealots for archons... that dies to more emps... This was easier to do when emp's radius was larger than storm. Now that it's the same size there has been more hesitancy as precision aiming is necessary.
Your complaints are a bit ironic in light of the other debate going on but I dont know what games you've been watching? The fast 3 base -> power play is established if map dependent. Robo.. well you know how good banshees are right? Twilight- well our army trades so well with terran units in small groups that really making an army that moves at hydra speed and having it defend 3 bases....
The thing is that toss can't do much micro against terran until tech is unlocked. Otherwise toss has to be managing things. Toss also has limited ability to harass like a medivac drop (or a reaver) so ... yeah of course generally people are going to sit back until tech unlocks more robust aggression.
It's a more entertaining and dynamic matchup than ZvP.
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On July 28 2012 17:54 Sabu113 wrote:
Tvp lategame being impossible is a myth. I believe in the recent IPL TAC Taeja has show cased how that's true.
"Impossible" isn't the same as imbalanced or favoring one side over the other. Taeja managed to get out over 15 ghosts and managed to get nearly the perfect engagement with them. It happens.
It is extremely ironic that you would use that game as an example though, considering Taeja pulled most of his SCVs instead of trying to secure more bases and play out a proper macro game. I guess he also showed that its better to go all in than to try to play macro against a toss with 4+ bases.
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On July 28 2012 18:16 Bagi wrote:
Taeja managed to get out over 15 ghosts and managed to get nearly the perfect engagement with them. It happens.
This might happen, but its extremely hard due to the requirement of having a tech lab on your barracks. You cant get 15 Ghost in one round of production since usually at least half of the Barracks have reactors on them. This is actually a huge disadvantage of Terrans in that they are REQUIRED TO CHOOSE. None of the other races have to do that and the biggest choice for any other race is how many robotics or starports a Protoss builds, but Zerg are totally unrestricted in their choices on what to produce. Its the same problem for mech and air production and one of the reasons why mech and skyterran tactics are rather hard / impossible to pull off.
Personally I would actually love for Blizzard to change the Warp Gate in such a way in that a Warp Gate allows production everywhere with power, BUT at a slower speed than regular Gateways produce units. That way at least Protoss have a choice to make. Either something like this OR remove the need to choose for Terrans by removing the reactor (and making up for it by fiddling with the production times).
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Problem: Terran is OP .. to watch. Terrans make up for a disproportionate number of epic games. This is unfair to the Zerg and Protoss.
Solution: Give Protoss and Zerg more tools that emphasize and highlight the talent of their pro-gamers.
:D
/edit
Holy shit Taeja vs Startale. Especially vs bomber.
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On July 28 2012 21:51 monkybone wrote:
Warp gate is an awesome gameplay feature, and shouldn't be downplayed in favor of gateways as such. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed though.
Warp Gate research is a MUST HAVE upgrade and thus it is BAD. It isnt optional and there is no choice to make.
Good unit design should always have advantages paired with disadvantages. Thats why the Siege Tank is a much better design than the Colossus for example, whose only disadvantage is that it cant hit air.
The problem with the game right now is that it is wayy too fast and involves too many units. Having the ability to mass-produce units and in the middle of the battle is a really huge advantage over the other races and I think giving up this advantage partially while slowing down the production speed of the other races (sacking the reactor and reducing inject larva from 4 to 3 OR making it impossible for a hatchery to hold more than ~6 larva) could help all the "high tech" builds and making the game less tier 1 focused. Since HotS will require a full rebalance of units anyways I think they could fiddle around with the macro mechanics as well.
On July 28 2012 22:13 plogamer wrote:
Problem: Terran is OP .. to watch. Terrans make up for a disproportionate number of epic games. This is unfair to the Zerg and Protoss.
A Zerg army is a brown mass of something (watch a Zerg army fight in the GSL on the free stream).
A Protoss army is a yellow-ish mass of something (with some white blobs for the Archons).
Their lack of good looks comes from the lack of distinctness and even the colors of the units with no real contrast colors in them. Another reason for it is the totally different behaviour for terran units compared to a protoss deathball and a zerg swarm of mass units. Totally unexciting in the long run are Banelings due to their one-shot nature, compared to a Banshee which is trying to harrass a base they have instant excitement which is also gone instantly.
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On July 28 2012 22:46 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 21:51 monkybone wrote:
Warp gate is an awesome gameplay feature, and shouldn't be downplayed in favor of gateways as such. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed though. Warp Gate research is a MUST HAVE upgrade and thus it is BAD. It isnt optional and there is no choice to make.
Must have stuff isn't bad, and warp gate isn't supposed to be a choice.
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Warpgate is just a bad idea, even if it was optional.
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That's debatable, though pointless to do so as it isn't going to be changed, just as creep and other fundamentals aren't going to change.
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On July 28 2012 02:53 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 02:37 kyllinghest wrote:On July 27 2012 23:18 Shiori wrote:
If Terran is in a good position leading up to this first 200/200 Protoss push, he can hold it reliably, so long as he has good control and engagement skills, which are what an RTS should be about. Good control and engagement skills should definately be important, but while I don't think it has to be equally important for two races in a game like sc2 I do think it definately shouldn't be as skewed as it is. As it is now a terran has to outmicro a protoss incredibly hard to win a bigger battle. I remember Wolf, former P player in Fxo, once saying on air that keeping your zealots in the front is the hardest thing to do when controling a protoss army. That comment had me in stiches! The point is that at the highest level, everyone has really good APM and multitasking. The micro challenge isn't actually as hard as you're making it out to be for anyone playing this game for money. It's insufficient to just a-move and micro Templar against, say, MKP, which is why Parting, Squirtle, and MC don't do it.
There is a wide range of stuff to do inbetween a-moving and microing like crazy like MKP does. I am not claiming there is an imbalance in tvp, but I think it is a problem that protoss army control is so much easier and less complicated than terrans. If everyone at the highest level has the required apm and multitasking I think it would be great if all of them were forced to use it when engaging!
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On July 28 2012 23:11 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 22:46 Rabiator wrote:On July 28 2012 21:51 monkybone wrote:
Warp gate is an awesome gameplay feature, and shouldn't be downplayed in favor of gateways as such. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed though. Warp Gate research is a MUST HAVE upgrade and thus it is BAD. It isnt optional and there is no choice to make. Must have stuff isn't bad, and warp gate isn't supposed to be a choice.
Must have upgrades are terrible, because there is no excitement in getting them and no surprise for the opponent. Your protoss opponent WILL GET warp gate research and the only question is when. But what would happen if the production speed bonus would be applied to gateways instead? You could have the chance for a 2-3 gateway mass-production build for instance, which will create more excitement due to the choices available. Those gateways wouldnt even have to be proxied!
What would happen if terrans had to research stimpack for each bio unit separately, BUT also had different upgrades available and could only get one of them? Like "stimpack" or "bigger boom" (small AoE damage) upgrades for Marauders for example. You would have many more choices for the game and many more surprises. A very good example of having to choose is the way in which Brood War handled the advanced Zerg flyers. All of them started from Mutalisks, but you had to choose to upgrade the Mutalisk to anti-air or anti-ground. The linear progression in SC2 which doesnt involve Mutas is rather lackluster and boring.
On July 28 2012 23:38 Yaotzin wrote:
That's debatable, though pointless to do so as it isn't going to be changed, just as creep and other fundamentals aren't going to change.
If you dont point out the weaknesses of something they wont change it and with your attitude you have already given up the fight. It really takes a HUGE effort to make Blizzard see the light, but its the only way to make the game acceptable for all levels of play and not only for those who are able to use a deathball well and have crazy apm and multitasking. We only have two chances for such big and necessary changes and HotS as a chance is almost gone as they are too set in their own "vision" of the game. Those agendas need to be on the table for the last expansion ...
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On July 28 2012 22:46 Rabiator wrote:
Good unit design should always have advantages paired with disadvantages. Thats why the Siege Tank is a much better design than the Colossus for example, whose only disadvantage is that it cant hit air.
Writing stuff like this takes away from whatever you're trying to say. You're clearly not watching pro SC2 if you think that Colossus have no disadvantages beside not being able to hit air. There's fakes protoss do to try to make terran overcommit to vikings and if the terran has alot of air you can't really go colossus. Your race bias is clouding your judgement when it comes to "balance".
I too find siege tanks much more fun than Colossus but what you wrote is plainly not true.
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Balance is pretty darn hard to determine... How do you know that protoss players couldnt be playing better than they are currently? I've seen too many lategame PvTs where toss suicides one or two armies, but when the terran's fragile army gets caught in storms or misses EMPs its instant loss due to warp in. What if cooldowns increase based on distance or something random? Could toss still win? Of course... they would just have to play better and not suicide armies.
Or what if you just did a bunch of random TvP buffs? +1 viking range, +5 marauder HP, faster banshee build time, faster raven build time, in a single patch. Do you think Toss players wouldnt be able to win after a month or two? Of course they would, they would just hvae to play a little better.
Terran has been dealing with the broken game design for so long that i believe they are forced to play at a higher skill level than P or Z. Take the queen buff for example. HUGE buff for Zerg, but terran are forced again to play better and are now figuring out new ways to win. They same thing could be true for toss and I think they are playing way below the potential of the race and winning games they shouldnt.
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Problem: Zerg queen range for ground is too high
Solution:Reduce by one
Side Effects: Early game ZvT hellions will make a resurgence while still giving queens good anti bunker utility and a fighting chance against hellions
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EPT
