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On July 29 2012 05:14 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 05:03 Havik_ wrote:
I can't help but feel that a lot of Terrans simply want free, even easier wins against other races, especially TvP where its all about army positioning and the only thing that's really changed alot from the GomTvT days was EMP radius, which Taeja showed doesn't matter when you make more Ghosts. Colossi will get sniped easy and then with Medivac support the terran army will out DPS everything. The only time TvP is "autowin" for Protoss is if they hit a timing where they have Colossi and Terran has no vikings or a Timing where they have ALOT of High Templar and Terran has no Ghosts. There's really nothing imba about lategame TvP, especially when Terran has a crapton of timings that they can hit.
TvZ was fine too until the Queen buff, but that's an early game thing where Zerg can play more greedy behind their buffed Queens. Late game Terran just needs the right units. Vikings/ravens for Corruptor/ Broodlord, marauders for Ultralisks, and Ghosts for Infestors. Why Terrans don't make Ghosts anymore in this matchup baffles me considering that the Infestor is IMO the most important part of Zerg lategame. 2-3 EMPs = 10+ USELESS Infestors. Obviously now that mass snipe can't destroy Zerg T3 with complete ease, Ghosts are now useless against Infestors. In all seriousness though, I think Terrans are currently struggling with when to transition into Ghost production now that Ghosts can't just blanket deal with Z's lategame army. It used to be a no-brainer transition and now it has to be more carefully planned and streamlined to deal with the current/expected Zerg composition in-game. Sooner or later it will get figured out.
The Ghost transition isn't the problem. The problem is that you're getting a unit that is good against exactly 1 thing and horrible against everything else. Imagine if the Infestor was only capable of attacking Vikings or something. It would be fucking useless.
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On July 29 2012 05:03 Havik_ wrote:
I can't help but feel that a lot of Terrans simply want free, even easier wins against other races, especially TvP where its all about army positioning and the only thing that's really changed alot from the GomTvT days was EMP radius, which Taeja showed doesn't matter when you make more Ghosts. Colossi will get sniped easy and then with Medivac support the terran army will out DPS everything. The only time TvP is "autowin" for Protoss is if they hit a timing where they have Colossi and Terran has no vikings or a Timing where they have ALOT of High Templar and Terran has no Ghosts. There's really nothing imba about lategame TvP, especially when Terran has a crapton of timings that they can hit.
TvZ was fine too until the Queen buff, but that's an early game thing where Zerg can play more greedy behind their buffed Queens. Late game Terran just needs the right units. Vikings/ravens for Corruptor/ Broodlord, marauders for Ultralisks, and Ghosts for Infestors. Why Terrans don't make Ghosts anymore in this matchup baffles me considering that the Infestor is IMO the most important part of Zerg lategame. 2-3 EMPs = 10+ USELESS Infestors.
Shows how much you think of Terrans, who are really nerds just like you playing a different race. And yet, prejudice has no bounds. The tribalism is strong in this one.
The only thing is that the onus is on the Terran to take the initiative. I've said it before, EMP on an army that has already used up spells, taken shield damage, is a useless EMP. Storms and the two other aoe damage sources, on the other hand, are still very effective against a battered army. You see how it's not fair when one race faces a heavier burden than the other? I'm not saying it's super OP like TvZ, but to claim that Terrans who are unhappy with a higher burden of initiave want "free, even easier wins" (not sure how much easier it gets than free) is just idiotic at best.
Also, since when did 2-3 emps cover 10+ infestors. Even without splitting up infestors, I don't know if they naturally clump that well.
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On July 29 2012 05:27 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 05:14 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:03 Havik_ wrote:
I can't help but feel that a lot of Terrans simply want free, even easier wins against other races, especially TvP where its all about army positioning and the only thing that's really changed alot from the GomTvT days was EMP radius, which Taeja showed doesn't matter when you make more Ghosts. Colossi will get sniped easy and then with Medivac support the terran army will out DPS everything. The only time TvP is "autowin" for Protoss is if they hit a timing where they have Colossi and Terran has no vikings or a Timing where they have ALOT of High Templar and Terran has no Ghosts. There's really nothing imba about lategame TvP, especially when Terran has a crapton of timings that they can hit.
TvZ was fine too until the Queen buff, but that's an early game thing where Zerg can play more greedy behind their buffed Queens. Late game Terran just needs the right units. Vikings/ravens for Corruptor/ Broodlord, marauders for Ultralisks, and Ghosts for Infestors. Why Terrans don't make Ghosts anymore in this matchup baffles me considering that the Infestor is IMO the most important part of Zerg lategame. 2-3 EMPs = 10+ USELESS Infestors. Obviously now that mass snipe can't destroy Zerg T3 with complete ease, Ghosts are now useless against Infestors. In all seriousness though, I think Terrans are currently struggling with when to transition into Ghost production now that Ghosts can't just blanket deal with Z's lategame army. It used to be a no-brainer transition and now it has to be more carefully planned and streamlined to deal with the current/expected Zerg composition in-game. Sooner or later it will get figured out. The Ghost transition isn't the problem. The problem is that you're getting a unit that is good against exactly 1 thing and horrible against everything else. Imagine if the Infestor was only capable of attacking Vikings or something. It would be fucking useless. A bit of an exaggeration. Cloak, passable anti-air/anti-ground attack (that shares upgrades with your marines and marauders), nukes... Ghosts were stupidly powerful against Z before the nerf because they could en masse deal better than cost effectively with every single unit Z wants to make in the lategame, and with deal just fine with most of Zerg's lower tier units. They're still useful. They're just not particularly effective to mass anymore. Which is where appropriately gauging the transition comes in.
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On July 29 2012 05:35 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 05:27 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 05:14 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:03 Havik_ wrote:
I can't help but feel that a lot of Terrans simply want free, even easier wins against other races, especially TvP where its all about army positioning and the only thing that's really changed alot from the GomTvT days was EMP radius, which Taeja showed doesn't matter when you make more Ghosts. Colossi will get sniped easy and then with Medivac support the terran army will out DPS everything. The only time TvP is "autowin" for Protoss is if they hit a timing where they have Colossi and Terran has no vikings or a Timing where they have ALOT of High Templar and Terran has no Ghosts. There's really nothing imba about lategame TvP, especially when Terran has a crapton of timings that they can hit.
TvZ was fine too until the Queen buff, but that's an early game thing where Zerg can play more greedy behind their buffed Queens. Late game Terran just needs the right units. Vikings/ravens for Corruptor/ Broodlord, marauders for Ultralisks, and Ghosts for Infestors. Why Terrans don't make Ghosts anymore in this matchup baffles me considering that the Infestor is IMO the most important part of Zerg lategame. 2-3 EMPs = 10+ USELESS Infestors. Obviously now that mass snipe can't destroy Zerg T3 with complete ease, Ghosts are now useless against Infestors. In all seriousness though, I think Terrans are currently struggling with when to transition into Ghost production now that Ghosts can't just blanket deal with Z's lategame army. It used to be a no-brainer transition and now it has to be more carefully planned and streamlined to deal with the current/expected Zerg composition in-game. Sooner or later it will get figured out. The Ghost transition isn't the problem. The problem is that you're getting a unit that is good against exactly 1 thing and horrible against everything else. Imagine if the Infestor was only capable of attacking Vikings or something. It would be fucking useless. A bit of an exaggeration. Cloak, passable anti-air/anti-ground attack (that shares upgrades with your marines and marauders), nukes... Ghosts were stupidly powerful against Z before the nerf because they could en masse deal better than cost effectively with every single unit Z wants to make in the lategame, and with deal just fine with most of Zerg's lower tier units. They're still useful. They're just not particularly effective to mass anymore. Which is where appropriately gauging the transition comes in.
Uh. Having a "passable" attack isn't good for an expensive unit that you're cutting Marines/Marauders for. It's diminishing the DPS of your army, and costing you more money. The Cloak is irrelevant to engagements, and Nuking is a completely different thing altogether.
It's one thing for Ghosts to have been overpowered before. Fine. The point is that they're shit against everything other than Infestors for what they cost and for what they take to produce. You say they shouldn't be massed. Lol. EVERYTHING in Sc2 needs to be massed if it's good. That's just the way the game works. You don't make 2 Infestors. You don't make 1 Colossus or Brood Lord. You don't make 1 Ultralisk. Stacraft 2 doesn't work with small groups of specialized units, because all of the skill except for the Ghost's scale so well in numbers. That's why the unit sucks. It's too shitty to mass but too ineffective to even deal with Infestors except in decent numbers.
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On July 29 2012 05:35 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 05:27 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 05:14 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:03 Havik_ wrote:
I can't help but feel that a lot of Terrans simply want free, even easier wins against other races, especially TvP where its all about army positioning and the only thing that's really changed alot from the GomTvT days was EMP radius, which Taeja showed doesn't matter when you make more Ghosts. Colossi will get sniped easy and then with Medivac support the terran army will out DPS everything. The only time TvP is "autowin" for Protoss is if they hit a timing where they have Colossi and Terran has no vikings or a Timing where they have ALOT of High Templar and Terran has no Ghosts. There's really nothing imba about lategame TvP, especially when Terran has a crapton of timings that they can hit.
TvZ was fine too until the Queen buff, but that's an early game thing where Zerg can play more greedy behind their buffed Queens. Late game Terran just needs the right units. Vikings/ravens for Corruptor/ Broodlord, marauders for Ultralisks, and Ghosts for Infestors. Why Terrans don't make Ghosts anymore in this matchup baffles me considering that the Infestor is IMO the most important part of Zerg lategame. 2-3 EMPs = 10+ USELESS Infestors. Obviously now that mass snipe can't destroy Zerg T3 with complete ease, Ghosts are now useless against Infestors. In all seriousness though, I think Terrans are currently struggling with when to transition into Ghost production now that Ghosts can't just blanket deal with Z's lategame army. It used to be a no-brainer transition and now it has to be more carefully planned and streamlined to deal with the current/expected Zerg composition in-game. Sooner or later it will get figured out. The Ghost transition isn't the problem. The problem is that you're getting a unit that is good against exactly 1 thing and horrible against everything else. Imagine if the Infestor was only capable of attacking Vikings or something. It would be fucking useless. A bit of an exaggeration. Cloak, passable anti-air/anti-ground attack (that shares upgrades with your marines and marauders), nukes... Ghosts were stupidly powerful against Z before the nerf because they could en masse deal better than cost effectively with every single unit Z wants to make in the lategame, and with deal just fine with most of Zerg's lower tier units. They're still useful. They're just not particularly effective to mass anymore. Which is where appropriately gauging the transition comes in.
So they were kind of like how Infestors are right now?
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On July 29 2012 05:35 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 05:27 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 05:14 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:03 Havik_ wrote:
I can't help but feel that a lot of Terrans simply want free, even easier wins against other races, especially TvP where its all about army positioning and the only thing that's really changed alot from the GomTvT days was EMP radius, which Taeja showed doesn't matter when you make more Ghosts. Colossi will get sniped easy and then with Medivac support the terran army will out DPS everything. The only time TvP is "autowin" for Protoss is if they hit a timing where they have Colossi and Terran has no vikings or a Timing where they have ALOT of High Templar and Terran has no Ghosts. There's really nothing imba about lategame TvP, especially when Terran has a crapton of timings that they can hit.
TvZ was fine too until the Queen buff, but that's an early game thing where Zerg can play more greedy behind their buffed Queens. Late game Terran just needs the right units. Vikings/ravens for Corruptor/ Broodlord, marauders for Ultralisks, and Ghosts for Infestors. Why Terrans don't make Ghosts anymore in this matchup baffles me considering that the Infestor is IMO the most important part of Zerg lategame. 2-3 EMPs = 10+ USELESS Infestors. Obviously now that mass snipe can't destroy Zerg T3 with complete ease, Ghosts are now useless against Infestors. In all seriousness though, I think Terrans are currently struggling with when to transition into Ghost production now that Ghosts can't just blanket deal with Z's lategame army. It used to be a no-brainer transition and now it has to be more carefully planned and streamlined to deal with the current/expected Zerg composition in-game. Sooner or later it will get figured out. The Ghost transition isn't the problem. The problem is that you're getting a unit that is good against exactly 1 thing and horrible against everything else. Imagine if the Infestor was only capable of attacking Vikings or something. It would be fucking useless. A bit of an exaggeration. Cloak, passable anti-air/anti-ground attack (that shares upgrades with your marines and marauders), nukes... Ghosts were stupidly powerful against Z before the nerf because they could en masse deal better than cost effectively with every single unit Z wants to make in the lategame, and with deal just fine with most of Zerg's lower tier units. They're still useful. They're just not particularly effective to mass anymore. Which is where appropriately gauging the transition comes in.
Check the numbers. Ghosts can be useful against zerglings at best. And against Banelings, if zerg is bad enough to smash banelings against ghosts. Cloak gets shown by overseers which every zerg does if he sees Ghost Academy built, also they get revealed by fungals.
Long story short, unless Ghosts don't cast spells, it's way better to get marines. Or tanks. Or vikings.
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I've still yet to see Zerg players who say the Ghost deserves to be as weak as it is now defend the Infestor, which is not only just as useful as the Ghost ever was, but is useful in all 3 matchups to the same degree.
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On July 29 2012 00:57 plogamer wrote:
Look at these simple facts.
SC2 is a deathball dominated game. No one denies this. Yes?
No, some of the strongest strategies in the game are not deathball oriented - mass drop play, muta bastrade vs Protoss, Warpgate attacks, zergling/infestor counterattackstyle etc etc. True, in the end you want to transition into big armies, if you couldn't beat your opponent before, but SC2 is no more deathballish than BW in that regard. In the very lategame, you have to concentrate your forces to break the opponent. This is a basic RTS style. SC2 has quite more of those strategies early on than BW, but there are massive amounts of non deathball strategies and the higher the level of play gets, the less deathballs you will see. Ofc a big "main army" always remains, but a drop, some DTs or a flock of mutas can just win you the game or at least get you ahead dramatically.
On July 29 2012 00:57 plogamer wrote:
AoE is the best thing against deathballs, where units are clumped. Yes?
No. Some of the best units in the game (at least at certain timings) are singleshot. Marines, Broodlords, Stalkers, Zerglings, Marauders, Roaches, Immortals, are all singleshot units. Mass Broodlord is just as much of a strategy as mass marine/medivac is.
Ofc, theoretically AoE can work wonders against those, but the game is (or at least tries) to be balanced in a way that AoE is not a wonderweapon. MMM can beat Protoss and Zerg without any AoE, just as Immortal/Sentry or mass roach can be quite strong PvZ/ZvP builds.
AoE is a great addition to your army, but most of the damage is still being done by singleshot units.
On July 29 2012 00:57 plogamer wrote:
Currently, the two races doing well (Protoss and Zerg) also happen to have better aoe. Yes?
Protoss vs Zerg is quite balanced, Protoss vs Terran is quite balanced, and the mirrors are obviously balanced.
Which leaves us with TvZ. Looks like Terran has a specific problem against Zerg, not a designwise problem, like your post implies ("lacking AoE").
On July 29 2012 00:57 plogamer wrote:
Co-incidence? No.
Yes. Terran did not use more AoE when they had >60% winrates against Protoss/Zerg, while Colossi, Banelings, Infestors and Templars (even with Khaydarian Amulet) all were used quite a lot at those times.
So it doesn't come down to the potential of AoE units, it comes down to how many of them you get at which timing against what Terran composition.
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Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips.
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On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips.
Stop responding to the guy, he is more biased than a 5 year old thinking his father created the world.
User was warned for this post
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On July 29 2012 05:56 Toastie.NL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips. Stop responding to the guy, he is more biased than a 5 year old thinking his father created the world.
Fair enough :p.
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On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips. PvZ is a series of coinflips now, is it?
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On July 29 2012 05:58 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips. PvZ is a series of coinflips now, is it?
Yes.
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On July 29 2012 05:45 Shiori wrote:
I've still yet to see Zerg players who say the Ghost deserves to be as weak as it is now defend the Infestor, which is not only just as useful as the Ghost ever was, but is useful in all 3 matchups to the same degree.
I'm gonna defend the Infestor for as long as Zerg doesn't have a different choice that can overtake the Infestors roles (partly).
Right now, Hydras suck generally (apart from some small timing windows), Mutalisks suck in straight up combat and... well that's it with universal units you can get as Zerg.
I'd be completly fine if they would fix the hydralisk (remove range upgrade from lair, give +2range upgrade at hive, give speed upgrade at lair, let them upgrade with +2 per upgrade) and the lategame roach (small nerf early on, some buff for the lategame) and nerf the infestor (and the "mass broodlord"), so that it isn't the best unit in the game anymore.
It's actually quite hilarious that zerg with the best production has (maybe, everything is situational, but infestors are quite good in most situations) the best unit in the game. But due to how bad/specific all the other zerg techs are in the lategame (apart from the broodlord - and even that one usually needs infestors to survive until they are up in the mass), I'm not sure wether zerg could survive anything in the midgame, while staying competable in the lategame, just due to how little supplyefficientness/aggressive potential all other units of zerg provide.
But yeah, the Ghost has been overnerfed. It's one of the 2-3 most expensive units in the game and limited by Terran production, but it mostly fullfills a support role right now. Not that I think Terran can't get by without it, but the unit itself is not as strong as it should be imo.
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It's nice to see that it's gotten to the point where people in general start realizing how badly designed the game really is when terrans start disappearing from both ladder and higher level play, and what's left are two races that depend on a-moving deathballs and spamming AOEs clashing against each other or stomping the one well designed race because they've been balanced with a lower skill cap in mind and thus are objectively stronger, and will keep getting buffed in order to keep up with constantly rising skill levels of the other race that actually has a high skill ceiling that still hasn't been reached.
Maybe if people bitch enough about how stale the game is Blizzard will get off their ass and actually make the game worth watching and playing again by raising the skill cap of Protoss and Zerg so engagements between modern day pros don't basically come down to either build order coin flips or lategame vortexes landing because the races have been pretty much mastered...
...but that would require a whole rebalancing of the game, and it's not going to happen anytime soon. Looking at hots, I would say that it won't even happen until LotV, and not even then if I know Blizzard.
And I was so looking forward to play and get good at the successor to Brood war. At the moment, it's just a sad joke that also managed to kill off it's respectable predecessor.
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On July 29 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 05:58 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips. PvZ is a series of coinflips now, is it? Yes. Please, do elaborate.
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On July 29 2012 06:04 Dalavita wrote:
It's nice to see that it's gotten to the point where people in general starts realizing badly designed the game really is when terrans start disappearing from both ladder and higher level play, and what's left is two badly designed races constantly clashing against each other or stomping the one well designed race because they've been balanced with a lower skill cap in mind and thus are objectively stronger, and will keep getting stronger, to keep up with constantly rising skill levels.
Maybe if people bitch enough about how stale the game actually is Blizzard will get off their ass and actually make the game worth watching and playing again by raising the skill cap of Protoss and Zerg so engagements between modern day pros don't basically come down to either build order coin flips or lategame vortexes landing because the races have been pretty much mastered...
...but that would require a whole rebalancing of the game, and it's not going to happen anytime soon. Looking at hots, I would say that it won't even happen until LotV, and not even then if I know Blizzard.
And I was so looking forward to play and get good at the successor to Brood war. At the moment, it's just a sad joke that also managed to kill off it's respectable predecessor.
They're solving the problem by giving Terrans a low-skillcap option in HotS with mech. So, everyone will be able to a-move against everyone else with equal effectiveness.
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On July 29 2012 06:04 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 05:58 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips. PvZ is a series of coinflips now, is it? Yes. Please, do elaborate.
I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one:
On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well.
Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me 
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Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post just by looking at the race portrait (90%+ approx accuracy). Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs.
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EPT
