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On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:04 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 05:58 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips. PvZ is a series of coinflips now, is it? Yes. Please, do elaborate. I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me 
It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes.
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On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs.
I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast.
Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced.
On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:04 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 05:58 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips. PvZ is a series of coinflips now, is it? Yes. Please, do elaborate. I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes.
"Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance.
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Put rocks on all thirds. Everyone can go home and relax.
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On July 29 2012 06:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs. I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast. Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced. Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:04 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 05:58 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips. PvZ is a series of coinflips now, is it? Yes. Please, do elaborate. I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes. "Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance.
I didn't say both players were coinflipping. When I say "PvZ" I usually am referring to the Protoss perspective. If I want to talk about the Zerg side of things I'll say ZvP.
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On July 29 2012 06:08 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:04 Dalavita wrote:
It's nice to see that it's gotten to the point where people in general starts realizing badly designed the game really is when terrans start disappearing from both ladder and higher level play, and what's left is two badly designed races constantly clashing against each other or stomping the one well designed race because they've been balanced with a lower skill cap in mind and thus are objectively stronger, and will keep getting stronger, to keep up with constantly rising skill levels.
Maybe if people bitch enough about how stale the game actually is Blizzard will get off their ass and actually make the game worth watching and playing again by raising the skill cap of Protoss and Zerg so engagements between modern day pros don't basically come down to either build order coin flips or lategame vortexes landing because the races have been pretty much mastered...
...but that would require a whole rebalancing of the game, and it's not going to happen anytime soon. Looking at hots, I would say that it won't even happen until LotV, and not even then if I know Blizzard.
And I was so looking forward to play and get good at the successor to Brood war. At the moment, it's just a sad joke that also managed to kill off it's respectable predecessor. They're solving the problem by giving Terrans a low-skillcap option in HotS with mech. So, everyone will be able to a-move against everyone else with equal effectiveness.
Mech is most certainly not a 'low skillgap'.
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On July 29 2012 06:24 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:19 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs. I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast. Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced. On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:04 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 05:58 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips. PvZ is a series of coinflips now, is it? Yes. Please, do elaborate. I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes. "Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance. I didn't say both players were coinflipping. When I say "PvZ" I usually am referring to the Protoss perspective. If I want to talk about the Zerg side of things I'll say ZvP.
So that I get that right, I'm gonna write down how I read what you said:
in PvZ, Protoss coinflips but Zerg in ZvP does not participate in the coinflip.
Sounds weird to me. Kind of like you wanted to tell me, that Zerg always does the same, Protoss always does something different, and out of no particular reason sometimes it works for Protoss and sometimes it doesn't. Weird...
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On July 29 2012 06:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:24 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:19 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs. I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast. Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced. On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:04 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 05:58 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips. PvZ is a series of coinflips now, is it? Yes. Please, do elaborate. I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes. "Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance. I didn't say both players were coinflipping. When I say "PvZ" I usually am referring to the Protoss perspective. If I want to talk about the Zerg side of things I'll say ZvP. So that I get that right, I'm gonna write down how I read what you said: in PvZ, Protoss coinflips but Zerg in ZvP does not participate in the coinflip. Sounds weird to me. Kind of like you wanted to tell me, that Zerg always does the same, Protoss always does something different, and out of no particular reason sometimes it works for Protoss and sometimes it doesn't. Weird...
Out of no particular reason? No no, you see, Protoss is gambling on whether Zerg is going to scout/react properly/split their Broods etc. etc.
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On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me
I'm not sure what he means exactly, but I'll try to elaborate upon what I think is coinflippy about it from the Protoss side.
See, the Protoss problem is really that they cannot scout with probes after lings and Queens are out. There are two basic ways of dealing with this:
1. Do something blindly, and either hope luck's on your side (and your opponent is unprepared), or have a build that's decent-ish against everything (modern macro builds try to do this, with varying degrees of success).
2. Invest in some tech in order to scout (Robo, Hallucination or Stargate), and then react.
Now, the problem with these options, broadly speaking, is that they're only good against either greedy or safe play from the Zerg, and there's no way to tell one from the other without choosing one of them. If you build an early Robo, scout with an obs, and see the Zerg skipping Roaches in favor of an early spire, you won't be able to do shit about it, and will be stuck with useless Robo tech as you try to set up your muta defense (incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen Zerg lose a ZvP after getting away with a greedy muta build). Of course, the Muta build will lose to blink all-ins and have some major trouble defending a +1 4gate, but those builds aren't very good against standard roach play.
This is one of the reasons why the goto macro build most top PvZers use involves getting fast blink and a delayed Robo, both suboptimal against midgame roach/ling pressure. If you don't know what's coming, you can try to prepare for everything as best as you can.
There's a reason Stephano can do the same build every single PvZ, but MC can't.
On July 29 2012 06:26 Toastie.NL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:08 Toadvine wrote:On July 29 2012 06:04 Dalavita wrote:
It's nice to see that it's gotten to the point where people in general starts realizing badly designed the game really is when terrans start disappearing from both ladder and higher level play, and what's left is two badly designed races constantly clashing against each other or stomping the one well designed race because they've been balanced with a lower skill cap in mind and thus are objectively stronger, and will keep getting stronger, to keep up with constantly rising skill levels.
Maybe if people bitch enough about how stale the game actually is Blizzard will get off their ass and actually make the game worth watching and playing again by raising the skill cap of Protoss and Zerg so engagements between modern day pros don't basically come down to either build order coin flips or lategame vortexes landing because the races have been pretty much mastered...
...but that would require a whole rebalancing of the game, and it's not going to happen anytime soon. Looking at hots, I would say that it won't even happen until LotV, and not even then if I know Blizzard.
And I was so looking forward to play and get good at the successor to Brood war. At the moment, it's just a sad joke that also managed to kill off it's respectable predecessor. They're solving the problem by giving Terrans a low-skillcap option in HotS with mech. So, everyone will be able to a-move against everyone else with equal effectiveness. Mech is most certainly not a 'low skillgap'.
It will be after Dustin Browder's done with it. Probably won't even need Tanks. You think Thor/Hellion has a high skill-cap at the moment?
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On July 29 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:31 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:24 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:19 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs. I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast. Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced. On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:04 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 05:58 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips. PvZ is a series of coinflips now, is it? Yes. Please, do elaborate. I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes. "Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance. I didn't say both players were coinflipping. When I say "PvZ" I usually am referring to the Protoss perspective. If I want to talk about the Zerg side of things I'll say ZvP. So that I get that right, I'm gonna write down how I read what you said: in PvZ, Protoss coinflips but Zerg in ZvP does not participate in the coinflip. Sounds weird to me. Kind of like you wanted to tell me, that Zerg always does the same, Protoss always does something different, and out of no particular reason sometimes it works for Protoss and sometimes it doesn't. Weird... Out of no particular reason? No no, you see, Protoss is gambling on whether Zerg is going to scout/react properly/split their Broods etc. etc.
In my opinion:
From the Protoss POV; you coinflip:
Is the Zerg going to react properly to your expansion build (Mutaling/Roaches/expand, depending on map), or will you go all in, hoping the zerg scouts and/or reacts poorly,
Zerg plays the usual style and has the burden of preparing and reacting to what P does.
Protoss does strat X hoping the Zerg doesn't punish him for it, Zerg tries to punish. Protoss initiates the coinflip, Zerg react
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On July 29 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:31 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:24 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:19 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs. I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast. Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced. On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:04 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 05:58 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:50 Shiori wrote:
Big J, please do not put PvT and PvZ in the same sentence. The former is an interesting, dynamic, and skill-based matchup. The latter is a series of coinflips. PvZ is a series of coinflips now, is it? Yes. Please, do elaborate. I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes. "Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance. I didn't say both players were coinflipping. When I say "PvZ" I usually am referring to the Protoss perspective. If I want to talk about the Zerg side of things I'll say ZvP. So that I get that right, I'm gonna write down how I read what you said: in PvZ, Protoss coinflips but Zerg in ZvP does not participate in the coinflip. Sounds weird to me. Kind of like you wanted to tell me, that Zerg always does the same, Protoss always does something different, and out of no particular reason sometimes it works for Protoss and sometimes it doesn't. Weird... Out of no particular reason? No no, you see, Protoss is gambling on whether Zerg is going to scout/react properly/split their Broods etc. etc.
So do you think Zerg can do that(1), or Zerg can't(2)? Or does it come down to how the skill relation between the players is(3)?
Because in scenario (1) it is a coinflip for Protoss and the game is imbalanced towards Zerg, in scenario (2) it is a coinflip for Zerg to even go for that strategy as Protoss can "just shut it down" and the game is imbalanced towards Protoss.
And in scenario (3) it is not a coinflip, but a clash of skill, like it should be.
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On July 29 2012 06:34 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me I'm not sure what he means exactly, but I'll try to elaborate upon what I think is coinflippy about it from the Protoss side. See, the Protoss problem is really that they cannot scout with probes after lings and Queens are out. There are two basic ways of dealing with this: 1. Do something blindly, and either hope luck's on your side (and your opponent is unprepared), or have a build that's decent-ish against everything (modern macro builds try to do this, with varying degrees of success). 2. Invest in some tech in order to scout (Robo, Hallucination or Stargate), and then react. Now, the problem with these options, broadly speaking, is that they're only good against either greedy or safe play from the Zerg, and there's no way to tell one from the other without choosing one of them. If you build an early Robo, scout with an obs, and see the Zerg skipping Roaches in favor of an early spire, you won't be able to do shit about it, and will be stuck with useless Robo tech as you try to set up your muta defense (incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen Zerg lose a ZvP after getting away with a greedy muta build). Of course, the Muta build will lose to blink all-ins and have some major trouble defending a +1 4gate, but those builds aren't very good against standard roach play. This is one of the reasons why the goto macro build most top PvZers use involves getting fast blink and a delayed Robo, both suboptimal against midgame roach/ling pressure. If you don't know what's coming, you can try to prepare for everything as best as you can. There's a reason Stephano can do the same build every single PvZ, but MC can't. Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:26 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 29 2012 06:08 Toadvine wrote:On July 29 2012 06:04 Dalavita wrote:
It's nice to see that it's gotten to the point where people in general starts realizing badly designed the game really is when terrans start disappearing from both ladder and higher level play, and what's left is two badly designed races constantly clashing against each other or stomping the one well designed race because they've been balanced with a lower skill cap in mind and thus are objectively stronger, and will keep getting stronger, to keep up with constantly rising skill levels.
Maybe if people bitch enough about how stale the game actually is Blizzard will get off their ass and actually make the game worth watching and playing again by raising the skill cap of Protoss and Zerg so engagements between modern day pros don't basically come down to either build order coin flips or lategame vortexes landing because the races have been pretty much mastered...
...but that would require a whole rebalancing of the game, and it's not going to happen anytime soon. Looking at hots, I would say that it won't even happen until LotV, and not even then if I know Blizzard.
And I was so looking forward to play and get good at the successor to Brood war. At the moment, it's just a sad joke that also managed to kill off it's respectable predecessor. They're solving the problem by giving Terrans a low-skillcap option in HotS with mech. So, everyone will be able to a-move against everyone else with equal effectiveness. Mech is most certainly not a 'low skillgap'. It will be after Dustin Browder's done with it. Probably won't even need Tanks. You think Thor/Hellion has a high skill-cap at the moment? Thor Hellion has a reasonable skillgap, as in, the Hellions need to do their job well and the Thors need to be focussed and positioned well.
Warhound Battlehellion is a disgrace of the beautiful style that is Mech. So are Vipers, Swarm Hosts, Tempests. Tanks are pathetically weak atm and Browder is looking into nerfing them.
Look, Carriers get removed. That sucks. Tanks get fucking nerfed so hard it's not funny and they are hardly usable, people only use them because it is the only way of zoning out Infestors. Nothing else.
EDIT: Gotta edit in that the Widow Mine is in fact a good idea and probably makes Tanks obsolete (superior zoning capabilties)
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On July 29 2012 06:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:31 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:24 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:19 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs. I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast. Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced. On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:04 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 05:58 RampancyTW wrote:
[quote]PvZ is a series of coinflips now, is it?
Yes. Please, do elaborate. I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes. "Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance. I didn't say both players were coinflipping. When I say "PvZ" I usually am referring to the Protoss perspective. If I want to talk about the Zerg side of things I'll say ZvP. So that I get that right, I'm gonna write down how I read what you said: in PvZ, Protoss coinflips but Zerg in ZvP does not participate in the coinflip. Sounds weird to me. Kind of like you wanted to tell me, that Zerg always does the same, Protoss always does something different, and out of no particular reason sometimes it works for Protoss and sometimes it doesn't. Weird... Out of no particular reason? No no, you see, Protoss is gambling on whether Zerg is going to scout/react properly/split their Broods etc. etc. So do you think Zerg can do that(1), or Zerg can't(2)? Or does it come down to how the skill relation between the players is(3)? Because in scenario (1) it is a coinflip for Protoss and the game is imbalanced towards Zerg, in scenario (2) it is a coinflip for Zerg to even go for that strategy as Protoss can "just shut it down" and the game is imbalanced towards Protoss. And in scenario (3) it is not a coinflip, but a clash of skill, like it should be.
It's (1). Of course Zerg can react properly. Stephano does it 9/10 games.
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On July 29 2012 06:39 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:37 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:31 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:24 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:19 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs. I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast. Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced. On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:04 RampancyTW wrote:On July 29 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Yes. Please, do elaborate. I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes. "Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance. I didn't say both players were coinflipping. When I say "PvZ" I usually am referring to the Protoss perspective. If I want to talk about the Zerg side of things I'll say ZvP. So that I get that right, I'm gonna write down how I read what you said: in PvZ, Protoss coinflips but Zerg in ZvP does not participate in the coinflip. Sounds weird to me. Kind of like you wanted to tell me, that Zerg always does the same, Protoss always does something different, and out of no particular reason sometimes it works for Protoss and sometimes it doesn't. Weird... Out of no particular reason? No no, you see, Protoss is gambling on whether Zerg is going to scout/react properly/split their Broods etc. etc. So do you think Zerg can do that(1), or Zerg can't(2)? Or does it come down to how the skill relation between the players is(3)? Because in scenario (1) it is a coinflip for Protoss and the game is imbalanced towards Zerg, in scenario (2) it is a coinflip for Zerg to even go for that strategy as Protoss can "just shut it down" and the game is imbalanced towards Protoss. And in scenario (3) it is not a coinflip, but a clash of skill, like it should be. It's (1). Of course Zerg can react properly. Stephano does it 9/10 games.
OK, thanks, so Zerg players are simply too bad in your opinion. That's all I wanted to know. And you call me biased 
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On July 29 2012 06:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:39 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:37 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:31 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:24 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:19 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs. I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast. Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced. On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:04 RampancyTW wrote:
[quote]Please, do elaborate. I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes. "Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance. I didn't say both players were coinflipping. When I say "PvZ" I usually am referring to the Protoss perspective. If I want to talk about the Zerg side of things I'll say ZvP. So that I get that right, I'm gonna write down how I read what you said: in PvZ, Protoss coinflips but Zerg in ZvP does not participate in the coinflip. Sounds weird to me. Kind of like you wanted to tell me, that Zerg always does the same, Protoss always does something different, and out of no particular reason sometimes it works for Protoss and sometimes it doesn't. Weird... Out of no particular reason? No no, you see, Protoss is gambling on whether Zerg is going to scout/react properly/split their Broods etc. etc. So do you think Zerg can do that(1), or Zerg can't(2)? Or does it come down to how the skill relation between the players is(3)? Because in scenario (1) it is a coinflip for Protoss and the game is imbalanced towards Zerg, in scenario (2) it is a coinflip for Zerg to even go for that strategy as Protoss can "just shut it down" and the game is imbalanced towards Protoss. And in scenario (3) it is not a coinflip, but a clash of skill, like it should be. It's (1). Of course Zerg can react properly. Stephano does it 9/10 games. OK, thanks, so Zerg players are simply too bad in your opinion. That's all I wanted to know. And you call me biased
I think many professional Zerg players have incredibly poor scouting, reactions, and unit control. Whether or not that makes them "bad" is up to you. But it's a fact that Stephano doesn't lose ZvPs unless he gets mindgamed or unless he makes a massive blunder. How you rationalize that, I don't know.
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On July 29 2012 06:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:39 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:37 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:31 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:24 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:19 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs. I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast. Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced. On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:04 RampancyTW wrote:
[quote]Please, do elaborate. I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: On July 21 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:
Every time a Zerg actually plays well and doesn't make any huge blunders, they seem to win, even if the P/T player is also playing well. Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes. "Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance. I didn't say both players were coinflipping. When I say "PvZ" I usually am referring to the Protoss perspective. If I want to talk about the Zerg side of things I'll say ZvP. So that I get that right, I'm gonna write down how I read what you said: in PvZ, Protoss coinflips but Zerg in ZvP does not participate in the coinflip. Sounds weird to me. Kind of like you wanted to tell me, that Zerg always does the same, Protoss always does something different, and out of no particular reason sometimes it works for Protoss and sometimes it doesn't. Weird... Out of no particular reason? No no, you see, Protoss is gambling on whether Zerg is going to scout/react properly/split their Broods etc. etc. So do you think Zerg can do that(1), or Zerg can't(2)? Or does it come down to how the skill relation between the players is(3)? Because in scenario (1) it is a coinflip for Protoss and the game is imbalanced towards Zerg, in scenario (2) it is a coinflip for Zerg to even go for that strategy as Protoss can "just shut it down" and the game is imbalanced towards Protoss. And in scenario (3) it is not a coinflip, but a clash of skill, like it should be. It's (1). Of course Zerg can react properly. Stephano does it 9/10 games. OK, thanks, so Zerg players are simply too bad in your opinion. That's all I wanted to know. And you call me biased
Yes, you are biased. You're clearly implying a double standard that expects the game to be balanced around both optimal non-zerg play, and non-optimal zerg play.
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On July 29 2012 06:47 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:43 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:39 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:37 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:31 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:24 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:19 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs. I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast. Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced. On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:[quote] I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: [quote] Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes. "Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance. I didn't say both players were coinflipping. When I say "PvZ" I usually am referring to the Protoss perspective. If I want to talk about the Zerg side of things I'll say ZvP. So that I get that right, I'm gonna write down how I read what you said: in PvZ, Protoss coinflips but Zerg in ZvP does not participate in the coinflip. Sounds weird to me. Kind of like you wanted to tell me, that Zerg always does the same, Protoss always does something different, and out of no particular reason sometimes it works for Protoss and sometimes it doesn't. Weird... Out of no particular reason? No no, you see, Protoss is gambling on whether Zerg is going to scout/react properly/split their Broods etc. etc. So do you think Zerg can do that(1), or Zerg can't(2)? Or does it come down to how the skill relation between the players is(3)? Because in scenario (1) it is a coinflip for Protoss and the game is imbalanced towards Zerg, in scenario (2) it is a coinflip for Zerg to even go for that strategy as Protoss can "just shut it down" and the game is imbalanced towards Protoss. And in scenario (3) it is not a coinflip, but a clash of skill, like it should be. It's (1). Of course Zerg can react properly. Stephano does it 9/10 games. OK, thanks, so Zerg players are simply too bad in your opinion. That's all I wanted to know. And you call me biased I think many professional Zerg players have incredibly poor scouting, reactions, and unit control. Whether or not that makes them "bad" is up to you. But it's a fact that Stephano doesn't lose ZvPs unless he gets mindgamed or unless he makes a massive blunder. How you rationalize that, I don't know.
Didn't Stephano lose to Mana, Sase, and two times vs Oz recently? Hyperbole, it's fantastic!
Also the poor scouting, unit control, and reactions are so vague and could be said for any race really. I could easily find lots and lots of "proof" for P/T/Z top pros being bad using this logic.
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On July 29 2012 06:54 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:47 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:43 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:39 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:37 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:31 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:24 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:19 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs. I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast. Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced. On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes. "Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance. I didn't say both players were coinflipping. When I say "PvZ" I usually am referring to the Protoss perspective. If I want to talk about the Zerg side of things I'll say ZvP. So that I get that right, I'm gonna write down how I read what you said: in PvZ, Protoss coinflips but Zerg in ZvP does not participate in the coinflip. Sounds weird to me. Kind of like you wanted to tell me, that Zerg always does the same, Protoss always does something different, and out of no particular reason sometimes it works for Protoss and sometimes it doesn't. Weird... Out of no particular reason? No no, you see, Protoss is gambling on whether Zerg is going to scout/react properly/split their Broods etc. etc. So do you think Zerg can do that(1), or Zerg can't(2)? Or does it come down to how the skill relation between the players is(3)? Because in scenario (1) it is a coinflip for Protoss and the game is imbalanced towards Zerg, in scenario (2) it is a coinflip for Zerg to even go for that strategy as Protoss can "just shut it down" and the game is imbalanced towards Protoss. And in scenario (3) it is not a coinflip, but a clash of skill, like it should be. It's (1). Of course Zerg can react properly. Stephano does it 9/10 games. OK, thanks, so Zerg players are simply too bad in your opinion. That's all I wanted to know. And you call me biased I think many professional Zerg players have incredibly poor scouting, reactions, and unit control. Whether or not that makes them "bad" is up to you. But it's a fact that Stephano doesn't lose ZvPs unless he gets mindgamed or unless he makes a massive blunder. How you rationalize that, I don't know. Didn't Stephano lose to Mana, Sase, and two times vs Oz recently? Hyperbole, it's fantastic!
How does that contradict what I said? Mana and Sase both all-inned him, and Stephano reacted extremely atypically and got crushed. Oz prepared builds to mindgame Stephano, and they worked, on top of the fact that it was universally agreed that Stephano wasn't playing well.
You can try to find that, but good luck. The problem with PvZ is that it's never close. The Zerg either reacts wrong and gets crushed or reacts properly and stomps the Protoss. In TvP, this doesn't happen unless there's a truly huge mis-engagement in the early game. You get advantages, sometimes big and sometimes small, but don't bank on 1 push winning or failing.
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On July 29 2012 06:47 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 06:43 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:39 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:37 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:31 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:24 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:19 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 06:17 karpo wrote:
Kinda fun to see that you can guess the content of the post by just looking at the race portrait. Reading the last few pages really shows how invested people are in "their" race and how they just can't look at anything objectively.
It's like the average far left vs far right debate where no one will ever budge in their beliefs. I don't know, but I'm basically saying at every occasion that I think that Zerg is too strong against Terran right now. I just don't think it is as simply as "Unit X is too strong" - because TvZ good screwed by Zergs getting the availability to get too much eco too fast. Also I don't think you can nerf Zerg units straight up, without compensating for ZvP, as this matchup seems to be very balanced. On July 29 2012 06:18 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 06:13 Big J wrote:[quote] I would love to hear that as well, considering comments like this one: [quote] Seems like you don't think PvZ is coinflippy it all, but you just wanted to bash around randomly, because you don't like me It's certainly coinflippy. How do you think Protoss and Terran players get wins? By using gimmicks and lading Vortexes. "Everytime a zerg player plays well he wins." That's not a coinflip. That's straight up belief in imbalance. I didn't say both players were coinflipping. When I say "PvZ" I usually am referring to the Protoss perspective. If I want to talk about the Zerg side of things I'll say ZvP. So that I get that right, I'm gonna write down how I read what you said: in PvZ, Protoss coinflips but Zerg in ZvP does not participate in the coinflip. Sounds weird to me. Kind of like you wanted to tell me, that Zerg always does the same, Protoss always does something different, and out of no particular reason sometimes it works for Protoss and sometimes it doesn't. Weird... Out of no particular reason? No no, you see, Protoss is gambling on whether Zerg is going to scout/react properly/split their Broods etc. etc. So do you think Zerg can do that(1), or Zerg can't(2)? Or does it come down to how the skill relation between the players is(3)? Because in scenario (1) it is a coinflip for Protoss and the game is imbalanced towards Zerg, in scenario (2) it is a coinflip for Zerg to even go for that strategy as Protoss can "just shut it down" and the game is imbalanced towards Protoss. And in scenario (3) it is not a coinflip, but a clash of skill, like it should be. It's (1). Of course Zerg can react properly. Stephano does it 9/10 games. OK, thanks, so Zerg players are simply too bad in your opinion. That's all I wanted to know. And you call me biased I think many professional Zerg players have incredibly poor scouting, reactions, and unit control. Whether or not that makes them "bad" is up to you. But it's a fact that Stephano doesn't lose ZvPs unless he gets mindgamed or unless he makes a massive blunder. How you rationalize that, I don't know.
How do I rationalize that? That the standard skill is that people don't have the skill to get what is going on exactly.
That only the very best of the best like Stephano or (probably even better) DRG really can know what is going on. That only those really get what the Protoss is up to and only their superior skill makes them that strong. And because of that, they can only be beaten by using equally strong skill, like doing unorthodox things (Oz, Naniwa) or just being better than the standard Protoss player (like MC or Oz who hold attacks with less units than other Protoss would need, due to faster and more precise FFs and stuff like that).
Basically: a good Zerg can only be beaten by a good Protoss.
a worse Zerg, will die easier, have less units for an aggressive timing and not be able to abuse Protoss mistakes (like missed FFs) the way DRG or Stephano can.
similarily for worse Protoss.
And yes, if you think they have poor scouting, reactions and unit control, than that does imply that they are bad players. That's what bad means. If you think that a Zerg has bad unit control because they are not as good as DRG, then I have to tell you that a Protoss that is not as good with forcefields as Oz is and can't take a third of 5units on Daybreak is bad as well.
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EPT
