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On July 29 2012 08:44 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 08:40 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:
Yep, this confirms it. Even in the face of unflinching evidence that you supplied you're incapable of acknowledging when something is a metagame. We're done here. Don't bother debating with me until you have the ability to actually think outside of the box.
Taking a 5 minute third is not safe. Period. And yes, I read your entire post and all of its pictures. Either you do not understand how PvZ works, or you're being wilfully ignorant, because nothing you showed supports your argument in the slightest. Oh really. Stephano plays the most standard PvZ style. Something that you have whined about a thousand times ("Stephano always plays the same style and is capable of beating everyone without switching it up"). Then Oz plays a build that counters that style. Suddenly I'm the "one with problems acknowleding that this is a metagame". Of course it is a metagame. Fast speed has been very useless for zergs, because Protoss figured how to deal with it, so Zergs figuered new builds without fast speed, now Protoss figure builds that are good against nonspeed builds. Jesus Christ. Oz's build was a reaction to Stephano's personal quirks, not the build itself.
He doesn't understand, you know, like the type of people who don't understand sarcasm.
Everyone plays builds slightly differently adding their own style to it. Standard plays encompass the basis of the strategy you are executing, it doesn't mean, however, that everyone does a certain build the exact same way.
Fast 3rd Nexus can't be a standard build because it is way too easy to shut down when scouted.
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On July 29 2012 08:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 08:44 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 08:40 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:
Yep, this confirms it. Even in the face of unflinching evidence that you supplied you're incapable of acknowledging when something is a metagame. We're done here. Don't bother debating with me until you have the ability to actually think outside of the box.
Taking a 5 minute third is not safe. Period. And yes, I read your entire post and all of its pictures. Either you do not understand how PvZ works, or you're being wilfully ignorant, because nothing you showed supports your argument in the slightest. Oh really. Stephano plays the most standard PvZ style. Something that you have whined about a thousand times ("Stephano always plays the same style and is capable of beating everyone without switching it up"). Then Oz plays a build that counters that style. Suddenly I'm the "one with problems acknowleding that this is a metagame". Of course it is a metagame. Fast speed has been very useless for zergs, because Protoss figured how to deal with it, so Zergs figuered new builds without fast speed, now Protoss figure builds that are good against nonspeed builds. Jesus Christ. Oz's build was a reaction to Stephano's personal quirks, not the build itself. He doesn't understand, you know, like the type of people who don't understand sarcasm. Everyone plays builds slightly differently adding their own style to it. Standard plays encompass the basis of the strategy you are executing, it doesn't mean, however, that everyone does a certain build the exact same way. Fast 3rd Nexus can't be a standard build because it is way too easy to shut down when scouted.
Yeah, I'm not going to bother explaining it to him any further.
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On July 29 2012 08:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 08:44 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 08:40 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:
Yep, this confirms it. Even in the face of unflinching evidence that you supplied you're incapable of acknowledging when something is a metagame. We're done here. Don't bother debating with me until you have the ability to actually think outside of the box.
Taking a 5 minute third is not safe. Period. And yes, I read your entire post and all of its pictures. Either you do not understand how PvZ works, or you're being wilfully ignorant, because nothing you showed supports your argument in the slightest. Oh really. Stephano plays the most standard PvZ style. Something that you have whined about a thousand times ("Stephano always plays the same style and is capable of beating everyone without switching it up"). Then Oz plays a build that counters that style. Suddenly I'm the "one with problems acknowleding that this is a metagame". Of course it is a metagame. Fast speed has been very useless for zergs, because Protoss figured how to deal with it, so Zergs figuered new builds without fast speed, now Protoss figure builds that are good against nonspeed builds. Jesus Christ. Oz's build was a reaction to Stephano's personal quirks, not the build itself. He doesn't understand, you know, like the type of people who don't understand sarcasm. Everyone plays builds slightly differently adding their own style to it. Standard plays encompass the basis of the strategy you are executing, it doesn't mean, however, that everyone does a certain build the exact same way. Fast 3rd Nexus can't be a standard build because it is way too easy to shut down when scouted.
~3:40 Artosis: "even if he goes for the 1gate triple Nexus, he knows how to hold that (referring to mass roach/ling)"
~5:20 Artosis: "this is really the trademark of Oz, he gets things done, that other Protosses do not"
~6:20 Artosis: "I wonder what he does, maybe just that quick expansion as you(ref to Day9) said"
Day9 answers: "The double chronoboost would certainly indicate that expansion"
~6:40: Day9: "It will be this fast triple Nexus build"
(so yeah, I was wrong; Day9 said what I thought Artosis did; apart from that, people that have quite more clue than either one of us here seem to know that triple Nexus build and seem to think it is possible to hold it)
seems like Artosis and Day9 disagree with you, and this build is absolutly standard in the current metagame. At least on Daybreak.
But please theorycraft more about how this is not possible to hold. I'm not going to bother anymore, as you don't bother to "explain" things to me anymore, that you know better off than two of the best analysts in Starcraft know off. (that actually is sarcasm, which I do quite get, BeyondCtrL  )
also, here is the replay:
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/18-summer-scii-arena#1752/1764/1;91883
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Did Gumiho's amazing performance in GSTL and Maj0r's sick use of hellions in TSL4 today change any balance whiners' opinions today? Hellions are not useless. Far, far from it.
Step up T. GGs from your brethren last couple days.
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On July 29 2012 09:22 IPA wrote:
Did Gumiho's amazing performance in GSTL and Maj0r's sick use of hellions in TSL4 today change any balance whiners' opinions today? Hellions are not useless. Far, far from it.
Step up T. GGs from your brethren last couple days.
I didn't catch Major's games, but Gumiho going 4 command centers into double gas into mech and still barely hanging on vs a zerg with 1/4th his skill didn't prove much. Then his game vs Coca, well lets just say his cheese epic failed and then he got very lucky that Coca had cleared the rocks leading into his natural without even watching them. Still, I don't think t v z is impossible to win but I do still feel it's favored towards Zerg in a lot of ways.
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On July 29 2012 09:22 IPA wrote:
Did Gumiho's amazing performance in GSTL and Maj0r's sick use of hellions in TSL4 today change any balance whiners' opinions today? Hellions are not useless. Far, far from it.
Step up T. GGs from your brethren last couple days.
What Major did against Hyun was, firstly, and all-in, and, secondly, something that Hyun should not have lost to twice in a row. Hyun showcased some pretty poor unit control to take that much damage.
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On July 29 2012 09:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 08:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:On July 29 2012 08:44 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 08:40 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:
Yep, this confirms it. Even in the face of unflinching evidence that you supplied you're incapable of acknowledging when something is a metagame. We're done here. Don't bother debating with me until you have the ability to actually think outside of the box.
Taking a 5 minute third is not safe. Period. And yes, I read your entire post and all of its pictures. Either you do not understand how PvZ works, or you're being wilfully ignorant, because nothing you showed supports your argument in the slightest. Oh really. Stephano plays the most standard PvZ style. Something that you have whined about a thousand times ("Stephano always plays the same style and is capable of beating everyone without switching it up"). Then Oz plays a build that counters that style. Suddenly I'm the "one with problems acknowleding that this is a metagame". Of course it is a metagame. Fast speed has been very useless for zergs, because Protoss figured how to deal with it, so Zergs figuered new builds without fast speed, now Protoss figure builds that are good against nonspeed builds. Jesus Christ. Oz's build was a reaction to Stephano's personal quirks, not the build itself. He doesn't understand, you know, like the type of people who don't understand sarcasm. Everyone plays builds slightly differently adding their own style to it. Standard plays encompass the basis of the strategy you are executing, it doesn't mean, however, that everyone does a certain build the exact same way. Fast 3rd Nexus can't be a standard build because it is way too easy to shut down when scouted. ~3:40 Artosis: "even if he goes for the 1gate triple Nexus, he knows how to hold that ( referring to mass roach/ling)" ~5:20 Artosis: "this is really the trademark of Oz, he gets things done, that other Protosses do not" ~6:20 Artosis: "I wonder what he does, maybe just that quick expansion as you( ref to Day9) said" Day9 answers: "The double chronoboost would certainly indicate that expansion" ~6:40: Day9: "It will be this fast triple Nexus build" (so yeah, I was wrong; Day9 said what I thought Artosis did; apart from that, people that have quite more clue than either one of us here seem to know that triple Nexus build and seem to think it is possible to hold it) seems like Artosis and Day9 disagree with you, and this build is absolutly standard in the current metagame. At least on Daybreak. But please theorycraft more about how this is not possible to hold. I'm not going to bother anymore, as you don't bother to "explain" things to me anymore, that you know better off than two of the best analysts in Starcraft know off. (that actually is sarcasm, which I do quite get, BeyondCtrL ) also, here is the replay: http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/18-summer-scii-arena#1752/1764/1;91883
You do realize that Zerg can take the 3rd base for free and upon scouting of the quick 3rd Nexus they don't have to autopilot into their standard post 10min plays. They can forego saturating the 3rd and build a ton of lings. Specifically around the 6min mark if Stephano even had a ling there and scouted it immediately he could stop spamming tons of drones and make a ton of zerglings. Oz had barely anything at the point. Running the lings to the building Nexus immediately would definitely have cost a cancel. Sure he wouldn't get the best econ after it but with the 3rd cancelled he could easily sit back and control the map and drone behind it. Oz's gas was so sparse he would not be able to comfortably transition into some tech. Retaking the base when you don't have a sim city against a bunch of lings with only a few sentries would cost too much.
That build is so damn greedy (despite what Day9 says) that even adjusting his build by incorporating earlier ling speed, skipping the standard roach warren timing, and more aggressive play Stephano could have shut that build down. This is not a massive adjustment to a build and can be done spontaneously as a reaction. If that build was actually standard we would be seeing it in more games. It's not. It's a working build (one one map) that relies on a coin flip: your opponent doesn't scout you and doesn't react quick enough. These are the types of builds you use when you want to surprise your opponent, catch them off guard and are generally favorable to the fact that you opponent won't react accordingly. Even though it's not GSL format it's obvious that they have planned builds for certain people because they know the likelihood of meeting these players as the tournament goes on gets higher. You can't really prepare for the unknowns, but you can definitely have some build planned (and knowledge of their playstyles) in the case when you might meet one of the more tougher opponents - would be pretty stupid not to.
There is no reason, for anyone, in the current metagame to have bad scouting as Stephano did in that game. When you have bad scouting you're not defeated by a standard build of the metagame, you're defeated by your own playstyle and over confidence.
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On July 29 2012 09:51 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 09:22 IPA wrote:
Did Gumiho's amazing performance in GSTL and Maj0r's sick use of hellions in TSL4 today change any balance whiners' opinions today? Hellions are not useless. Far, far from it.
Step up T. GGs from your brethren last couple days. What Major did against Hyun was, firstly, and all-in, and, secondly, something that Hyun should not have lost to twice in a row. Hyun showcased some pretty poor unit control to take that much damage.
Hyun is better than 99.9% of the NA ladder. If he can lose to hellion runbys, hellion drops, and hellion / banshee play, so can (and will) a shit ton of NA Masters Z trash like myself.
I just mainly wanted to emphasize that they are not useless, even given the queen's supposedly imba buff.
GL T.
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On July 29 2012 11:38 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 09:51 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 09:22 IPA wrote:
Did Gumiho's amazing performance in GSTL and Maj0r's sick use of hellions in TSL4 today change any balance whiners' opinions today? Hellions are not useless. Far, far from it.
Step up T. GGs from your brethren last couple days. What Major did against Hyun was, firstly, and all-in, and, secondly, something that Hyun should not have lost to twice in a row. Hyun showcased some pretty poor unit control to take that much damage. Hyun is better than 99.9% of the NA ladder. If he can lose to hellion runbys, hellion drops, and hellion / banshee play, so can (and will) a shit ton of NA Masters Z trash like myself. I just mainly wanted to emphasize that they are not useless, even given the queen's supposedly imba buff. GL T.
Anybody can lose a PvZ to a ling runby if they're careless. This does not mean, however, that making 20 lings in the early game and hoping the Protoss screws up his wall is a good way to play ZvP. Hellions are the same at the moment. You can sometimes do a ton of damage with them if the Zerg screws up, but they don't do all that much otherwise.
At the very least, bringing up Gumiho and Major's games as some universal panaceum to TvZ problems is pretty stupid, because all those games were really silly. Gumiho vs Min literally saw Min constantly build Corruptors and Broodlords with no Infestor support against 16 Vikings and 4 Ravens.
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On July 29 2012 11:38 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 09:51 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 09:22 IPA wrote:
Did Gumiho's amazing performance in GSTL and Maj0r's sick use of hellions in TSL4 today change any balance whiners' opinions today? Hellions are not useless. Far, far from it.
Step up T. GGs from your brethren last couple days. What Major did against Hyun was, firstly, and all-in, and, secondly, something that Hyun should not have lost to twice in a row. Hyun showcased some pretty poor unit control to take that much damage. Hyun is better than 99.9% of the NA ladder. If he can lose to hellion runbys, hellion drops, and hellion / banshee play, so can (and will) a shit ton of NA Masters Z trash like myself. I just mainly wanted to emphasize that they are not useless, even given the queen's supposedly imba buff. GL T.
Obviously they aren't useless. Nobody ever said they were. What's useless is opening them as standard, and what's useless is expecting them to work. There's a reason that Major waited until he was a game away from elimination before breaking out that strat: it's a desperate strat that doesn't usually work.
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On July 29 2012 11:47 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 11:38 IPA wrote:On July 29 2012 09:51 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 09:22 IPA wrote:
Did Gumiho's amazing performance in GSTL and Maj0r's sick use of hellions in TSL4 today change any balance whiners' opinions today? Hellions are not useless. Far, far from it.
Step up T. GGs from your brethren last couple days. What Major did against Hyun was, firstly, and all-in, and, secondly, something that Hyun should not have lost to twice in a row. Hyun showcased some pretty poor unit control to take that much damage. Hyun is better than 99.9% of the NA ladder. If he can lose to hellion runbys, hellion drops, and hellion / banshee play, so can (and will) a shit ton of NA Masters Z trash like myself. I just mainly wanted to emphasize that they are not useless, even given the queen's supposedly imba buff. GL T. Anybody can lose a PvZ to a ling runby if they're careless. This does not mean, however, that making 20 lings in the early game and hoping the Protoss screws up his wall is a good way to play ZvP. Hellions are the same at the moment. You can sometimes do a ton of damage with them if the Zerg screws up, but they don't do all that much otherwise. At the very least, bringing up Gumiho and Major's games as some universal panaceum to TvZ problems is pretty stupid, because all those games were really silly. Gumiho vs Min literally saw Min constantly build Corruptors and Broodlords with no Infestor support against 16 Vikings and 4 Ravens.
This. It's extremely annoying to see zerg quoting their race's occasionaly massive fuck up as terrans having consistent viable strats. TvZ in its current state depends on Z making some significant mistakes, or terran will eventually lose.
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On July 29 2012 11:38 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 09:51 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 09:22 IPA wrote:
Did Gumiho's amazing performance in GSTL and Maj0r's sick use of hellions in TSL4 today change any balance whiners' opinions today? Hellions are not useless. Far, far from it.
Step up T. GGs from your brethren last couple days. What Major did against Hyun was, firstly, and all-in, and, secondly, something that Hyun should not have lost to twice in a row. Hyun showcased some pretty poor unit control to take that much damage. Hyun is better than 99.9% of the NA ladder. If he can lose to hellion runbys, hellion drops, and hellion / banshee play, so can (and will) a shit ton of NA Masters Z trash like myself. I just mainly wanted to emphasize that they are not useless, even given the queen's supposedly imba buff. GL T.
Silly to make any points regarding ballance based on a few games. It's childish. After watching Tadja the last week, I could make an easy argument that Terran is ridiculously OP. But that would be silly as well, so I won't.
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Lol...Look at this barrage. Terran will continue to compete but I'm sure you will find additional excuses. I am not saying T is over or under powered. I am saying they are more than capable of competing (and winning). And hellions are not a bad unit.  Good luck fellas.
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Zerg wins = Zerg OP
Terrran wins = well, you konw, that zerg sucked hard and terran cut every corner to barely win. So, it doesn't mean much. Yeah, yeah, raven somewhat worked, but it shouldn't have in theory blah blah.
This is where community is at today.
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On July 29 2012 09:22 IPA wrote:
Did Gumiho's amazing performance in GSTL and Maj0r's sick use of hellions in TSL4 today change any balance whiners' opinions today? Hellions are not useless. Far, far from it.
Step up T. GGs from your brethren last couple days.
Major's "sick" use of hellions was HyuN responding the worst possible way in the entire world to them. He metagamed him. Zergs think they don't have to make spine crawlers at times and Major abused it. Plain and simple.
There still are balance issues with the game, don't use some isolated incidents to try and prove otherwise.
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On July 29 2012 16:06 Orek wrote:
Zerg wins = Zerg OP
Terrran wins = well, you konw, that zerg sucked hard and terran cut every corner to barely win. So, it doesn't mean much. Yeah, yeah, raven somewhat worked, but it shouldn't have in theory blah blah.
This is where community is at today.
No, not just today...
Remember when Terran had a 70%ish winrate and was considered OP? The very same people stated that all other races just have terrible players and that only terran players have skill.
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On July 29 2012 11:38 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 09:51 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 09:22 IPA wrote:
Did Gumiho's amazing performance in GSTL and Maj0r's sick use of hellions in TSL4 today change any balance whiners' opinions today? Hellions are not useless. Far, far from it.
Step up T. GGs from your brethren last couple days. What Major did against Hyun was, firstly, and all-in, and, secondly, something that Hyun should not have lost to twice in a row. Hyun showcased some pretty poor unit control to take that much damage. Hyun is better than 99.9% of the NA ladder. If he can lose to hellion runbys, hellion drops, and hellion / banshee play, so can (and will) a shit ton of NA Masters Z trash like myself. I just mainly wanted to emphasize that they are not useless, even given the queen's supposedly imba buff. GL T.
Well they arent useless that for sure because they still give good map control and stuff. Hyun responded terribly. Zerg lately been getting concieted and just been relying on their queen for their defense and not making spine crawlers Major knew this and metagame him and went hellion run by because zerg player are abusing queen and not making spine crawler it just as simple as that.
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On July 29 2012 10:24 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 09:05 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 08:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:On July 29 2012 08:44 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 08:40 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:
Yep, this confirms it. Even in the face of unflinching evidence that you supplied you're incapable of acknowledging when something is a metagame. We're done here. Don't bother debating with me until you have the ability to actually think outside of the box.
Taking a 5 minute third is not safe. Period. And yes, I read your entire post and all of its pictures. Either you do not understand how PvZ works, or you're being wilfully ignorant, because nothing you showed supports your argument in the slightest. Oh really. Stephano plays the most standard PvZ style. Something that you have whined about a thousand times ("Stephano always plays the same style and is capable of beating everyone without switching it up"). Then Oz plays a build that counters that style. Suddenly I'm the "one with problems acknowleding that this is a metagame". Of course it is a metagame. Fast speed has been very useless for zergs, because Protoss figured how to deal with it, so Zergs figuered new builds without fast speed, now Protoss figure builds that are good against nonspeed builds. Jesus Christ. Oz's build was a reaction to Stephano's personal quirks, not the build itself. He doesn't understand, you know, like the type of people who don't understand sarcasm. Everyone plays builds slightly differently adding their own style to it. Standard plays encompass the basis of the strategy you are executing, it doesn't mean, however, that everyone does a certain build the exact same way. Fast 3rd Nexus can't be a standard build because it is way too easy to shut down when scouted. ~3:40 Artosis: "even if he goes for the 1gate triple Nexus, he knows how to hold that ( referring to mass roach/ling)" ~5:20 Artosis: "this is really the trademark of Oz, he gets things done, that other Protosses do not" ~6:20 Artosis: "I wonder what he does, maybe just that quick expansion as you( ref to Day9) said" Day9 answers: "The double chronoboost would certainly indicate that expansion" ~6:40: Day9: "It will be this fast triple Nexus build" (so yeah, I was wrong; Day9 said what I thought Artosis did; apart from that, people that have quite more clue than either one of us here seem to know that triple Nexus build and seem to think it is possible to hold it) seems like Artosis and Day9 disagree with you, and this build is absolutly standard in the current metagame. At least on Daybreak. But please theorycraft more about how this is not possible to hold. I'm not going to bother anymore, as you don't bother to "explain" things to me anymore, that you know better off than two of the best analysts in Starcraft know off. (that actually is sarcasm, which I do quite get, BeyondCtrL ) also, here is the replay: http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/18-summer-scii-arena#1752/1764/1;91883 You do realize that Zerg can take the 3rd base for free and upon scouting of the quick 3rd Nexus they don't have to autopilot into their standard post 10min plays. They can forego saturating the 3rd and build a ton of lings. Specifically around the 6min mark if Stephano even had a ling there and scouted it immediately he could stop spamming tons of drones and make a ton of zerglings. Oz had barely anything at the point. Running the lings to the building Nexus immediately would definitely have cost a cancel. Sure he wouldn't get the best econ after it but with the 3rd cancelled he could easily sit back and control the map and drone behind it. Oz's gas was so sparse he would not be able to comfortably transition into some tech. Retaking the base when you don't have a sim city against a bunch of lings with only a few sentries would cost too much. That build is so damn greedy (despite what Day9 says) that even adjusting his build by incorporating earlier ling speed, skipping the standard roach warren timing, and more aggressive play Stephano could have shut that build down. This is not a massive adjustment to a build and can be done spontaneously as a reaction. If that build was actually standard we would be seeing it in more games. It's not. It's a working build (one one map) that relies on a coin flip: your opponent doesn't scout you and doesn't react quick enough. These are the types of builds you use when you want to surprise your opponent, catch them off guard and are generally favorable to the fact that you opponent won't react accordingly. Even though it's not GSL format it's obvious that they have planned builds for certain people because they know the likelihood of meeting these players as the tournament goes on gets higher. You can't really prepare for the unknowns, but you can definitely have some build planned (and knowledge of their playstyles) in the case when you might meet one of the more tougher opponents - would be pretty stupid not to. There is no reason, for anyone, in the current metagame to have bad scouting as Stephano did in that game. When you have bad scouting you're not defeated by a standard build of the metagame, you're defeated by your own playstyle and over confidence.
I already covered all of this, but in short again:
-) Stephano has everything were it needs to be in the standard metagame.
-) Oz clears out the third before putting down the Nexus
-) Stephano can't get faster speed. The first picture shows you how stephano's gasstatus is, when the Nexus gets thrown down. Something that is not changeable on the fly.
+ Show Spoiler +
The second picture shows you that he got speed asap and only produced lings from all his larva
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On July 29 2012 11:38 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 09:51 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 09:22 IPA wrote:
Did Gumiho's amazing performance in GSTL and Maj0r's sick use of hellions in TSL4 today change any balance whiners' opinions today? Hellions are not useless. Far, far from it.
Step up T. GGs from your brethren last couple days. What Major did against Hyun was, firstly, and all-in, and, secondly, something that Hyun should not have lost to twice in a row. Hyun showcased some pretty poor unit control to take that much damage. Hyun is better than 99.9% of the NA ladder. If he can lose to hellion runbys, hellion drops, and hellion / banshee play, so can (and will) a shit ton of NA Masters Z trash like myself. I just mainly wanted to emphasize that they are not useless, even given the queen's supposedly imba buff. GL T.
As an alternative to losing, all those ladder Zergs could build more units than 6 queens and 2 lings before reaching 80+ drones.
Just like game 2 for example, where Hyun had a roach bust in mind. Those roaches - as a side effect - crushed hellion harassment.
Really.. if a Zerg player refuses to build units more or less 3 times in a row AND makes defensive blunders like failing to block ramps/chokes (game 1: queens ran off creep and queens failed to block the main ramp, game 2: queen failed to block the choke at the natural, game 3: had units out but had them out of position to intercept), you expect them to win?
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On July 29 2012 17:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 10:24 BeyondCtrL wrote:On July 29 2012 09:05 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 08:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:On July 29 2012 08:44 Shiori wrote:On July 29 2012 08:40 Big J wrote:On July 29 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:
Yep, this confirms it. Even in the face of unflinching evidence that you supplied you're incapable of acknowledging when something is a metagame. We're done here. Don't bother debating with me until you have the ability to actually think outside of the box.
Taking a 5 minute third is not safe. Period. And yes, I read your entire post and all of its pictures. Either you do not understand how PvZ works, or you're being wilfully ignorant, because nothing you showed supports your argument in the slightest. Oh really. Stephano plays the most standard PvZ style. Something that you have whined about a thousand times ("Stephano always plays the same style and is capable of beating everyone without switching it up"). Then Oz plays a build that counters that style. Suddenly I'm the "one with problems acknowleding that this is a metagame". Of course it is a metagame. Fast speed has been very useless for zergs, because Protoss figured how to deal with it, so Zergs figuered new builds without fast speed, now Protoss figure builds that are good against nonspeed builds. Jesus Christ. Oz's build was a reaction to Stephano's personal quirks, not the build itself. He doesn't understand, you know, like the type of people who don't understand sarcasm. Everyone plays builds slightly differently adding their own style to it. Standard plays encompass the basis of the strategy you are executing, it doesn't mean, however, that everyone does a certain build the exact same way. Fast 3rd Nexus can't be a standard build because it is way too easy to shut down when scouted. ~3:40 Artosis: "even if he goes for the 1gate triple Nexus, he knows how to hold that ( referring to mass roach/ling)" ~5:20 Artosis: "this is really the trademark of Oz, he gets things done, that other Protosses do not" ~6:20 Artosis: "I wonder what he does, maybe just that quick expansion as you( ref to Day9) said" Day9 answers: "The double chronoboost would certainly indicate that expansion" ~6:40: Day9: "It will be this fast triple Nexus build" (so yeah, I was wrong; Day9 said what I thought Artosis did; apart from that, people that have quite more clue than either one of us here seem to know that triple Nexus build and seem to think it is possible to hold it) seems like Artosis and Day9 disagree with you, and this build is absolutly standard in the current metagame. At least on Daybreak. But please theorycraft more about how this is not possible to hold. I'm not going to bother anymore, as you don't bother to "explain" things to me anymore, that you know better off than two of the best analysts in Starcraft know off. (that actually is sarcasm, which I do quite get, BeyondCtrL ) also, here is the replay: http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/18-summer-scii-arena#1752/1764/1;91883 You do realize that Zerg can take the 3rd base for free and upon scouting of the quick 3rd Nexus they don't have to autopilot into their standard post 10min plays. They can forego saturating the 3rd and build a ton of lings. Specifically around the 6min mark if Stephano even had a ling there and scouted it immediately he could stop spamming tons of drones and make a ton of zerglings. Oz had barely anything at the point. Running the lings to the building Nexus immediately would definitely have cost a cancel. Sure he wouldn't get the best econ after it but with the 3rd cancelled he could easily sit back and control the map and drone behind it. Oz's gas was so sparse he would not be able to comfortably transition into some tech. Retaking the base when you don't have a sim city against a bunch of lings with only a few sentries would cost too much. That build is so damn greedy (despite what Day9 says) that even adjusting his build by incorporating earlier ling speed, skipping the standard roach warren timing, and more aggressive play Stephano could have shut that build down. This is not a massive adjustment to a build and can be done spontaneously as a reaction. If that build was actually standard we would be seeing it in more games. It's not. It's a working build (one one map) that relies on a coin flip: your opponent doesn't scout you and doesn't react quick enough. These are the types of builds you use when you want to surprise your opponent, catch them off guard and are generally favorable to the fact that you opponent won't react accordingly. Even though it's not GSL format it's obvious that they have planned builds for certain people because they know the likelihood of meeting these players as the tournament goes on gets higher. You can't really prepare for the unknowns, but you can definitely have some build planned (and knowledge of their playstyles) in the case when you might meet one of the more tougher opponents - would be pretty stupid not to. There is no reason, for anyone, in the current metagame to have bad scouting as Stephano did in that game. When you have bad scouting you're not defeated by a standard build of the metagame, you're defeated by your own playstyle and over confidence. I already covered all of this, but in short again: -) Stephano has everything were it needs to be in the standard metagame. -) Oz clears out the third before putting down the Nexus -) Stephano can't get faster speed. The first picture shows you how stephano's gasstatus is, when the Nexus gets thrown down. Something that is not changeable on the fly. + Show Spoiler +The second picture shows you that he got speed asap and only produced lings from all his larva
Now I know you are trolling.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/37z7g.png)
