EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 323
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
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ReaperCo
Sweden46 Posts
On July 27 2012 01:35 Asmodeusx wrote: Complaint Problem: Corruptors counter protoss air too well and render carriers useless Solution: Reduce base armor of the Corruptor by 1 and test it. Side Effects: Corruptors will be weaker to vikings, it might affect ZvT but Zerg does very well in this MU. Psionic storm is not affected by armor so the templar vs corruptor balance will be unchanged. Thoughts? Hm okej if thats a big problem why not buff carriers instead? That sound insane "buffing carriers" so i don't know i dont feel that late game toss is unbalanced at all. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On July 27 2012 01:35 Asmodeusx wrote: Complaint Problem: Corruptors counter protoss air too well and render carriers useless Solution: Reduce base armor of the Corruptor by 1 and test it. Side Effects: Corruptors will be weaker to vikings, it might affect ZvT but Zerg does very well in this MU. Psionic storm is not affected by armor so the templar vs corruptor balance will be unchanged. Thoughts? Actually, have you ever tried facing carriers (a "critical mass") with corruptors? Going carriers, you'll obviously have upgrades. Fully upgraded carriers vs unupgraded corruptors is just a massacre. It's actually disgusting to watch. Gibs all over the place. I think what is making corruptors good against carriers is that their bonus dmg to massive may be a little much, but also, and I called this one a long time ago, zergs are starting to upgrade their air almost every game now. Some are upgrading atk and carapace on air even if they are going heavy ground. Those upgrades help sooo much against carriers. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On July 27 2012 04:46 Big J wrote: yeah agree. But he was obviously at least partly wrong and it was not meant to be sarcasm. How was I partly wrong? It has been two seasons in which zergs totally dominate EU ladder. Only juggernauts as Kas, Beasty and Happy seemed to hold on. Today, when I look @ sc2ranks, I see a bunch of zergs I've never heard of, also tosses. Almost no terrans, and where there are, they are famous pros, or at least names we see often on gm and as ESL/eu playhem winners/runner ups. Look at this: ![[image loading]](http://snag.gy/eT40v.jpg) Again, I repeat Top 200: protoss: 95 random: 1 terran: 42 zerg: 87 This is not balance nor is a laughing matter. It is not that suddenly zerg players 'figured out the game'. Here is the problem: Problem Queen is an all functions unit that ensures macro mechanics, heals EVERYTHING, mobile anti air, mobile early game defense, ensures late game superiority by spreading creep which gives zerg army vision AND mobility AND stops building placement. Zerg, as the race with the strongest economy if left untouched, can after the patch just focus on making drones, resulting in absurd games where zerg takes 3-rd hatch virtually uncontested vs toss and terran, while not making fighting units and continuing drones, making zerg safely approach late game with eco advantage. So, zerg not only approaches late game safely cause of queen, but zerg approaches it with an advantage in eco. In addition, zerg late game units are stronger than terran's, so terran is double behind. Also, late game zerg army is ridiculously easy to control as compared to a terran composition and fungals and banes make one mistake costing you the game, something that terran doesn't have an equivalent to. Solution Queen has to lose one or more of versatile functions, so zerg actually can be contested in early to mid game, so terran doesn't enter late game with such a disadvantage. Blizzard said it 'as terran, if you did not do damage early to mid game, you will enter late game at a disadvantage'. My proposed solution is to make creep inject and tumor spread be channeling abilities, that will occupy the queen all of the time. This way, reaper openings and hellion openings won't be immediately stopped after the first queen pops out, and zerg players might have to choose whether to defend his drones with queens, or focus on economy and make units. But it definitely shouldn't be that the queen gives both an eco boost and such powerful defensive capabilities. Problem 2 Zergs nowadays make infestors to counter EVERY possible tech terran has. Whether it is battlecruisers, ravens or marines, even tanks, infestors have a range of useful abilities that just demolish every composition cost effectively. Due to fungal range, it is very easy to cast out of distance and very hard to react to. What is more, once it hits your army, there is nothing you can do but to sit and take it. Due to brood lord range, it is very hard to actually approach the infestor with the only thing that remotely counters it (the ghost). What is more, even if you do, your ghost will die almost for sure, and due to infestor size, you can hit at most 2-3 infestors with an emp. So what you achieved is actually lose your ghost but the infestors are alive. Or you can kill an infestor with snipe, die to broodlings, in which case you have lost more resources than the zerg. Solution 2 Fungal has to have either lower range, do less damage, be over less area, be non instant, or all of the above. This way, zerg late game compositions will be approachable and one mistake on the terran side wouldn't cost them the game. | ||
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ReaperCo
Sweden46 Posts
On July 27 2012 05:07 danl9rm wrote: Actually, have you ever tried facing carriers (a "critical mass") with corruptors? Going carriers, you'll obviously have upgrades. Fully upgraded carriers vs unupgraded corruptors is just a massacre. It's actually disgusting to watch. Gibs all over the place. I think what is making corruptors good against carriers is that their bonus dmg to massive may be a little much, but also, and I called this one a long time ago, zergs are starting to upgrade their air almost every game now. Some are upgrading atk and carapace on air even if they are going heavy ground. Those upgrades help sooo much against carriers. Your right the buff to massive units may be the thing that make them good against carriers, but you cant remove that from corrupters because thats needed against colossus. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On July 27 2012 05:15 Resistentialism wrote: The carrier's problem is that colossus force a response that counters them pretty hard and colossus are generally better in terms of cost, production and effectiveness. Carriers are also kind of boring in SC2 and on their way out anyways so I don't think I'd bother. True that... but what about carrier/HT? There's the obvious gas problem, but storm vs. semi-slow/stacking air units can be huge. Once you down their first round of corruptors, the damage is done. Carriers will rip apart a zerg's base so fast, I don't think they'll ever be able to get up enough corruptors again. | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
On July 27 2012 05:17 sieksdekciw wrote: How was I partly wrong? It has been two seasons in which zergs totally dominate EU ladder. Only juggernauts as Kas, Beasty and Happy seemed to hold on. Today, when I look @ sc2ranks, I see a bunch of zergs I've never heard of, also tosses. Almost no terrans, and where there are, they are famous pros, or at least names we see often on gm and as ESL/eu playhem winners/runner ups. Look at this: Again, I repeat Top 200: protoss: 95 random: 1 terran: 42 zerg: 87 This is not balance nor is a laughing matter. It is not that suddenly zerg players 'figured out the game'. Here is the problem: Problem Queen is an all functions unit that ensures macro mechanics, heals EVERYTHING, mobile anti air, mobile early game defense, ensures late game superiority by spreading creep which gives zerg army vision AND mobility AND stops building placement. Zerg, as the race with the strongest economy if left untouched, can after the patch just focus on making drones, resulting in absurd games where zerg takes 3-rd hatch virtually uncontested vs toss and terran, while not making fighting units and continuing drones, making zerg safely approach late game with eco advantage. So, zerg not only approaches late game safely cause of queen, but zerg approaches it with an advantage in eco. In addition, zerg late game units are stronger than terran's, so terran is double behind. Also, late game zerg army is ridiculously easy to control as compared to a terran composition and fungals and banes make one mistake costing you the game, something that terran doesn't have an equivalent to. Solution Queen has to lose one or more of versatile functions, so zerg actually can be contested in early to mid game, so terran doesn't enter late game with such a disadvantage. Blizzard said it 'as terran, if you did not do damage early to mid game, you will enter late game at a disadvantage'. My proposed solution is to make creep inject and tumor spread be channeling abilities, that will occupy the queen all of the time. This way, reaper openings and hellion openings won't be immediately stopped after the first queen pops out, and zerg players might have to choose whether to defend his drones with queens, or focus on economy and make units. But it definitely shouldn't be that the queen gives both an eco boost and such powerful defensive capabilities. Problem 2 Zergs nowadays make infestors to counter EVERY possible tech terran has. Whether it is battlecruisers, ravens or marines, even tanks, infestors have a range of useful abilities that just demolish every composition cost effectively. Due to fungal range, it is very easy to cast out of distance and very hard to react to. What is more, once it hits your army, there is nothing you can do but to sit and take it. Due to brood lord range, it is very hard to actually approach the infestor with the only thing that remotely counters it (the ghost). What is more, even if you do, your ghost will die almost for sure, and due to infestor size, you can hit at most 2-3 infestors with an emp. So what you achieved is actually lose your ghost but the infestors are alive. Or you can kill an infestor with snipe, die to broodlings, in which case you have lost more resources than the zerg. Solution 2 Fungal has to have either lower range, do less damage, be over less area, be non instant, or all of the above. This way, zerg late game compositions will be approachable and one mistake on the terran side wouldn't cost them the game. What is weird is that 5 of top 7 players in NA are Terran right now. 7 of top 20 in Korea. Why the disparity? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
So, yes, Terran is being nerfed again. If you do not know what i'm talking about, i'm speaking of the ghost cooldown change with cloak. It's a nerf to lategame Terran nuke harrass and the ghost in general. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On July 27 2012 05:25 avilo wrote: I'll be making a post on TL later as well as a video giving urgent feedback on HOTS because earlier today with my stream I just figured out that Blizzard is actually nerfing lategame TvP with HOTS because of how they say they are going to change the ghost. So, yes, Terran is being nerfed again. If you do not know what i'm talking about, i'm speaking of the ghost cooldown change with cloak. It's a nerf to lategame Terran nuke harrass and the ghost in general. Don't worry avilo, you'll solve that problem by a-moving over the Protoss in the midgame with mech. That's what David Kim says. | ||
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Lefiathen
70 Posts
This is a RTS game, real time STRATEGY game Can someone explain how exaclty massing spines and massing mutas is exactly strategy? Thats the only thing that i think should be nerfed, just because its insanely good, and its not strategy at all, they have nerfed things that requiere no strategy before so i hope they do that with the mutalisk  I think in HotS terran should use bio mech, like MMM Viking and battle hellion | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On July 27 2012 05:35 Lefiathen wrote: i jsut want to say something about mutalisk. This is a RTS game, real time STRATEGY game Can someone explain how exaclty massing spines and massing mutas is exactly strategy? Thats the only thing that i think should be nerfed, just because its insanely good, and its not strategy at all, they have nerfed things that requiere no strategy before so i hope they do that with the mutalisk I think in HotS terran should use bio mech, like MMM Viking and battle hellion Make marines and/ or thors and a couple of tanks. Before moving out spam turrets and go kill him. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 27 2012 05:25 avilo wrote: I'll be making a post on TL later as well as a video giving urgent feedback on HOTS because earlier today with my stream I just figured out that Blizzard is actually nerfing lategame TvP with HOTS because of how they say they are going to change the ghost. So, yes, Terran is being nerfed again. If you do not know what i'm talking about, i'm speaking of the ghost cooldown change with cloak. It's a nerf to lategame Terran nuke harrass and the ghost in general. lategame TvP is fine. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 27 2012 05:17 sieksdekciw wrote: How was I partly wrong? It has been two seasons in which zergs totally dominate EU ladder. Only juggernauts as Kas, Beasty and Happy seemed to hold on. Today, when I look @ sc2ranks, I see a bunch of zergs I've never heard of, also tosses. Almost no terrans, and where there are, they are famous pros, or at least names we see often on gm and as ESL/eu playhem winners/runner ups. Look at this: Again, I repeat Top 200: protoss: 95 random: 1 terran: 42 zerg: 87 Well then you are not following the scene. All of those zerg players in the top20 have been GM for quite some time now. I'm not saying that Zergs aren't doing very well in TvZ, but if you haven't heard of players like VortiX, Dimaga, Slivko, Snute, Nerchio or Naugrim, then I have to tell you you are simply uninformed. (yeah, I agree that I don't really know anything about the other zergs in the top20, apart from having read their names before when looking at GM stats). But as said, Happy and Kas have already been #1 this season etc, and you are arbitrarily giving this stat, because as pointed out, in NA and Korea you would find way more Terrans. Furthermore it is COMPLETELY HILARIOUS, that you point out that based upon that evidence, Zerg should get nerfed, while Protoss, which are represented more EVERYWHERE, seem to be fine for you. | ||
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Asmodeusx
286 Posts
On July 27 2012 05:07 danl9rm wrote: Actually, have you ever tried facing carriers (a "critical mass") with corruptors? Going carriers, you'll obviously have upgrades. Fully upgraded carriers vs unupgraded corruptors is just a massacre. It's actually disgusting to watch. Gibs all over the place. Forget i posted anything, this is obviously not the place to discuss anything reasonable. Oh my god. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On July 27 2012 04:50 Toadvine wrote: Any nerf to FF would be a huge nerf to PvZ, in particular against roach/ling midgame aggression. Protosses barely hold it nowadays with builds which optimize the amount of Sentries you get and at what time you get them. If you make it any more difficult, you'll only start seeing 2 base all-ins in PvZ. Besides, the part about "FF negating rushes too easily" sounds like ladder QQ from a Terran who did an awful attack, and got punished just like he should have. Terrans have ton of early game aggression that is barely affected by FF (like 1/1/1 or marine/hellion with a medivac). In any case, Protoss can only rely on FF for defense because maps allow for it, and for a good reason too, but you can always complain to mapmakers if you want to. I do understand the complaint about gateway all-ins and FF blocking repair, but it's a precarious balance. Without those all-ins, Terran would safely go 3 OC every game, and have a major midgame advantage for free. I do agree that those all-ins feel kind of stupid, but it's easy to fuck the matchup (which is quite balanced atm) by fiddling with them. For the record, I used to advocate a 10 second cooldown on FF and Sentries starting with 75 energy, and I think that is a much more elegant solution to the problem (you need X Sentries to place X FFs at the same time, which would require gateway all-ins vs Terran to have huge Sentry counts, making the atttack itself weaker). The only kind of aggression that isn't affected by sentries is an attack that features siege tanks. Which - outside of certain timings - are seriously bad for the investment they require. The hellion/marine/medivac trickery you cite doesn't really count, because it only holds true until 4+ stalkers are out and - considering the tech investment of the terran - this happens only with gas opening against nexus first. You deserve to die if you go nexus first against gas opening and the terran has to work hard with his control to pull it off. So yeah.. sentry shuts down most early-mid game aggression by the terran. So make bunkers and spines (rooted only) massive. Or supply depots (raised). | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
It worked out great for TvZ! | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On July 27 2012 05:55 Big J wrote: Furthermore it is COMPLETELY HILARIOUS, that you point out that based upon that evidence, Zerg should get nerfed, while Protoss, which are represented more EVERYWHERE, seem to be fine for you. Ah, toss. To be COMPLETELY HONEST, I never actually said that I am fine with toss either. What is more, I have pointed out in many posts and on many occasions that I believe the skill requirement for is a bit too low. It is the race that requires the least apm, facilitates a moving, and has the strongest units. However, since the toss problem and the broken warp gate mechanics have been addressed many times on TL, especially in the previous months, I believe I have nothing more to say about toss but my recommendation of nerfing warpgate/zealot health so a late game engagement near your base doesn't outright kill the terran. I post only when I have something constructive to suggest, which is what I did with my proposal for the queen's abilities to become channeling. You trying to twist my post to sound like a balance whine is not really appreciated. Only thing I got out of it is that you are a zerg player uncertain if he is going to retain his league once the inevitable nerfs come. | ||
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