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Asmodeusx
286 Posts
Problem: Corruptors counter protoss air too well and render carriers useless Solution: Reduce base armor of the Corruptor by 1 and test it. Side Effects: Corruptors will be weaker to vikings, it might affect ZvT but Zerg does very well in this MU. Psionic storm is not affected by armor so the templar vs corruptor balance will be unchanged. Thoughts? | ||
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dangthatsright
1158 Posts
On July 25 2012 23:20 DarkLordOlli wrote: Lategame, a single fungal is a one hit K.O. once there are enough brood lords in the air. Maybe give my stalkers the ability to blink at least, that way I can at least try to get close to brood lords. This was explicitly patched out of the game (blinking while fungal'd) quite a while before anyone realized just how good infestors are. On July 27 2012 01:35 Asmodeusx wrote: Complaint Problem: Corruptors counter protoss air too well and render carriers useless Solution: Reduce base armor of the Corruptor by 1 and test it. Side Effects: Corruptors will be weaker to vikings, it might affect ZvT but Zerg does very well in this MU. Psionic storm is not affected by armor so the templar vs corruptor balance will be unchanged. Thoughts? Generally what I've seen happen is carriers do really well when they first go into battle (assuming Protoss didn't just die before they were ready) and then a crapton of corruptors are made, while without this crapton of corruptors, carriers can still do pretty well. In other words, it may be the ability to make a crapton of corruptors quickly rather than the corruptor itself. I personally feel like ZvT is more imbalanced than ZvP, so looking at it from this angle, if a nerf to the Zerg deathball is made to address ZvT, targeting the corruptor seems like it would have the least effect on ZvP compared to dealing with the infestor or the broodlord, so this idea deals with that fairly well though. + Show Spoiler + Also nice to see "test it" explicitly there instead of a bunch of arguments saying that so and so just happens based on theory. On July 26 2012 00:19 Resistentialism wrote: Just make fungal something like an 85% speed reduction rather than a full snare. 85% is still tons and probably enough to murder errant mutas, while maybe allowing just enough movement that a chunk of units in an army can still retreat, or at least reposition themselves. My only question about this change is what to do with, say, the fact that fungal currently shuts down blink? Should blink be allowed, should it not be allowed, should it be allowed with a shorter range? On July 26 2012 07:04 Thrombozyt wrote: Actually, making buildings massive would be enough. That way a bunker has to be surrounded by forcefields in a way that no field touches the bunker. That way terran could set up a defense that allows SCVs to move but FF get dispelled. This actually sounds like a kickass idea. Maybe just for bunkers and not for all buildings (void rays come to mind), but it's definitely a change that may make defending these kinds of pushes easier (but not so easy that you don't have to really prepare for it). Though speaking of void rays, this would still need to be tested against 3 gate void ray or something like that. On July 26 2012 05:15 NewbieOne wrote: So: Problem: Protoss can a bit too efficiently/easily negate rushes, cut field armies apart to destroy them half by half, cut off bunker repairs. Solution: Increase FF energy cost from 50 to 60. Effect: First FF comes slightly later (and can't be cast fresh out of gate) but the delay adds up with next FFs and there is only 3, not 4, that a single sentry can do when on full mana. Casting three in a row would require 180 and not 150 energy. Six sentries could cast a max of 18, not 24 FFs. This would somewhat reduce field armies getting slaughtered in early to mid game, limit the extent of negating Terran or Zerg micro, limit the extent to which Toss can deny bunker repair when n-gating, make it slightly harder to block the ramp off indefinitely (perhaps by requiring one more sentry for the job). This would also reduce luck factor or the ability for single ability spam to negate overall skill. Side effect: Less sentry-centred play on ladder or sentry-based play forced to include a little more sentries, reducing the muscle part of the army (so you can't have plenty of blockers and a small group of damage dealers). More active Tosses, more real/varied battles (as opposed to the standard mill of chunking and chafing). Additional argument: FF seems to be intended as a ramp protection device and minor battlefield nuisance. The necessity to protect ramps has decreased with the nerf to Terran stim rushes and the slight nerf to barracks build time, and perhaps ramp vision nerf. There is no need to keep FF abusable in the battlefield. Toss would still be able to do all the things he can do now, just with a less overwhelming effect. Wouldn't mind this change. It would need to be tested though, I've seen plenty of holds against baneling busts that relied on a second sentry popping out and being able to immediately plant the necessary forcefield, and there are also a decent number of occasions where the Protoss attack seems to be doing a lot of damage, but then forcefields run out and the army gets steamrolled and Protoss just dies a few minutes later. | ||
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uzushould
Austria122 Posts
seems pretty balanced to me | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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Toastie.NL
Netherlands232 Posts
On July 26 2012 06:07 dvorakftw wrote: I think it'd be cool if one fungal slows units but you could stack a second to stop movement. No clue what it would do to balance but giving users more choices and making spells more dynamic is generally a good thing. Sick idea! I really really like that! 1st fungal deals the damage and has a -20% movespeed (Speed Banes > Stim Marines). If you put a second Fungal over it becomes a root. This way, Fungal as a root spell becomes - A LOT- less spammable, as you need 150 energy instead of 75. Next to that, casting it becomes harder (Infestors are kinda clunky, like support caster ultralisk)! I just want the Infestor to be less versatile... infestors counter every unit except the Ghost on paper (and in practice too, unless outplayed). The Ghost sucks vs Zerg after the overnerf of Snipe, so, the Infestor has no natural predator... that is why we see people like Freaky go for 6 base Spine/Infestor and just wait the game out. Doesnt matter if the opponent has 8 base, Infestors are so insanely cost effective. As a trade- off, I'd like to see a +20 health upgrade for Roaches at Hive.Giving Roaches that much more staying power (For example, 4 Siege Tank hits instead of 3). Won't really matter ZvP I think, because, well, Protoss can deal with Roaches when the tech is up. Roaches in ZvZ are a tad less vulnerable to Fungal damage. | ||
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Toastie.NL
Netherlands232 Posts
On July 27 2012 02:53 uzushould wrote: lol @ top 19 in gm europe no terra, first terra is kas with rank 20 seems pretty balanced to me Europe has no real noteworthy Terrans that play the EU ladder. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 27 2012 03:26 Toastie.NL wrote: Europe has no real noteworthy Terrans that play the EU ladder. Um? EU is known for having a lot of ladder hero Terrans, actually. Even still, I can't think of too many Zergs/Protosses who play EU ladder extensively. | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On July 27 2012 03:26 Toastie.NL wrote: Europe has no real noteworthy Terrans that play the EU ladder. Yes, Kas hasn't been 1-st place for 5 seasons in a row. Lucifron doesn't play ladder either. Beastyqt was rarely top 3, so was Happy. Yep, no noteworthy terrans. On the other hand, noteworthy zergs on EU ladder are: Recco Giantt CyNBlackcidy and FireCake They, of course, are famous and deserve to be at top ladder places. No imbalance involved at all. Yep. First 100 players EU gm: protoss: 41 random: 1 terran: 19 zerg: 39 Soon random players will be more than terrans cause, you know, they are terran only 33% of the time. | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 27 2012 03:48 Jarree wrote: Everyone knows T is shit now, you can look at every GM ratio of races or tournament rankings etc. Why argue about it? Blizzard likes assymmetrical balance and is doing this on purpose. T was OP, now when HOTS is coming it's zerg's turn. They want people to try out Z (there are lots of players that play t and p, but not z due to different mechanics), so HOTS will sell better. It's about making money, not balancing the game. yeah and scientists don't try to explain the world, they just want to make money by making people not believe in god(s). It's all a big conspiracy, don't believe ANYTHING! If they can't prove blue looks blue and not red to you, you really should call the cops... they might be onto something!!! | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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NewbieOne
Poland560 Posts
On July 27 2012 03:55 TeeTS wrote: Wow, I just saw, that the last bastion of terran hope has fallen too. Even on the korean Server, historically terran dominated, terran is the least represented race (aside from random) in grandmasters. It's only by a thin margin there, but the trend speaks a clear language.... ...Which Blizzard chooses to ignore or deflect. | ||
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ganil
253 Posts
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ganil
253 Posts
Your sarcasm detector is broken, you should fix it. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 27 2012 04:38 ganil wrote: @monkybone Your sarcasm detector is broken, you should fix it. nope; sieksdekciw wanted to point out that the seasons before this, Kas and Happy were supergood and this season they aren't and therefore the game is broken. No sarcasm involved. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 27 2012 04:40 Big J wrote: nope; sieksdekciw wanted to point out that the seasons before this, Kas and Happy were supergood and this season they aren't and therefore the game is broken. No sarcasm involved. I think he's actually just adding another small piece to the puzzle. Obviously it's false that Kas/Happy not being top of ladder indicates anything with certainty, but to see such a large drop-off in the Terran representation right around the time that a pretty controversial patch hits alongside a bunch of huge metagame changes that are widely considered by professionals to have made the matchup more Zerg favoured is very consistent. If anything, he's just showing another way in which the "Zerg op vs Terran" hypothesis accounts for a sudden change in the ladder representation. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 27 2012 04:42 Shiori wrote: I think he's actually just adding another small piece to the puzzle. Obviously it's false that Kas/Happy not being top of ladder indicates anything with certainty, but to see such a large drop-off in the Terran representation right around the time that a pretty controversial patch hits alongside a bunch of huge metagame changes that are widely considered by professionals to have made the matchup more Zerg favoured is very consistent. If anything, he's just showing another way in which the "Zerg op vs Terran" hypothesis accounts for a sudden change in the ladder representation. yeah agree. But he was obviously at least partly wrong and it was not meant to be sarcasm. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On July 26 2012 05:15 NewbieOne wrote: The problem with FF negating micro wouldn't be that big if Terrans had a symmetrical opportunity to negate micro of the Toss. Right now, FF shuts down most early aggression and messes up Terran armies in the field far beyond defensive use, while being easier to use than to avoid or deal with. This asymmetry itself is a pain. I'd suggest at least increased energy cost for FF to reduce the problem of FF spamming and delay Toss's ability to land a ton of them (making it harder while still possible to bust naturals and deny bunker repair). And/or make the FF attackable by something, e.g. concussive shots or EMP or just a ton of HP but still capable of being attacked by everything. This would be to prevent Toss, especially on lower levels, from being able to cut enemy armies in halves for easier destruction. So: Problem: Protoss can a bit too efficiently/easily negate rushes, cut field armies apart to destroy them half by half, cut off bunker repairs. Solution: Increase FF energy cost from 50 to 60. Effect: First FF comes slightly later (and can't be cast fresh out of gate) but the delay adds up with next FFs and there is only 3, not 4, that a single sentry can do when on full mana. Casting three in a row would require 180 and not 150 energy. Six sentries could cast a max of 18, not 24 FFs. This would somewhat reduce field armies getting slaughtered in early to mid game, limit the extent of negating Terran or Zerg micro, limit the extent to which Toss can deny bunker repair when n-gating, make it slightly harder to block the ramp off indefinitely (perhaps by requiring one more sentry for the job). This would also reduce luck factor or the ability for single ability spam to negate overall skill. Side effect: Less sentry-centred play on ladder or sentry-based play forced to include a little more sentries, reducing the muscle part of the army (so you can't have plenty of blockers and a small group of damage dealers). More active Tosses, more real/varied battles (as opposed to the standard mill of chunking and chafing). Additional argument: FF seems to be intended as a ramp protection device and minor battlefield nuisance. The necessity to protect ramps has decreased with the nerf to Terran stim rushes and the slight nerf to barracks build time, and perhaps ramp vision nerf. There is no need to keep FF abusable in the battlefield. Toss would still be able to do all the things he can do now, just with a less overwhelming effect. I tend to think PvT early game is balanced because in the earliest stages Toss is either equally or more powerful than Terran. Due to both FF and stim nerf the only mortal danger Toss had is averted, the rest IMHO the Toss can deal with, it doesn't pack such a punch compared to stim rushes from before the nerf. Especially in lower skill brackets, Terran can die very easily in the early game while Toss would need to die to 3 marauder push or something on the cheesy side. Any nerf to FF would be a huge nerf to PvZ, in particular against roach/ling midgame aggression. Protosses barely hold it nowadays with builds which optimize the amount of Sentries you get and at what time you get them. If you make it any more difficult, you'll only start seeing 2 base all-ins in PvZ. Besides, the part about "FF negating rushes too easily" sounds like ladder QQ from a Terran who did an awful attack, and got punished just like he should have. Terrans have ton of early game aggression that is barely affected by FF (like 1/1/1 or marine/hellion with a medivac). In any case, Protoss can only rely on FF for defense because maps allow for it, and for a good reason too, but you can always complain to mapmakers if you want to. I do understand the complaint about gateway all-ins and FF blocking repair, but it's a precarious balance. Without those all-ins, Terran would safely go 3 OC every game, and have a major midgame advantage for free. I do agree that those all-ins feel kind of stupid, but it's easy to fuck the matchup (which is quite balanced atm) by fiddling with them. For the record, I used to advocate a 10 second cooldown on FF and Sentries starting with 75 energy, and I think that is a much more elegant solution to the problem (you need X Sentries to place X FFs at the same time, which would require gateway all-ins vs Terran to have huge Sentry counts, making the atttack itself weaker). | ||
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