|
On July 25 2012 18:08 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 17:55 Big J wrote:On July 25 2012 13:58 -TesteR- wrote:On July 25 2012 13:54 Talack wrote:On July 25 2012 13:51 -TesteR- wrote:On July 25 2012 13:07 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On July 25 2012 12:54 BeeNu wrote:On July 25 2012 12:49 BlindKill wrote:
man if snipe nerf hadnt happened we would be seeing some boss preemptive baneling snipe while marine splitting Or we would just see Ghosts tearing apart every single Zerg unit above Tier 1 again. Pretty much what infestors and templars have been doing in vT since a long time. Those damn energy units. If only there was a unit that could take that energy away  Perhaps even take away the energy of a bunch of units in AOE form? Nah, that'd be too imba. Oh well, one can dream. This would be a valid arguement if infestors weren't fast, had a huge range for their spells and zerg players didnt keep them in the back of their insanely fast moving army. I can't comment on zerg but he said protoss too. Templars are slower than hydras, in fact, they are slowest ground unit in the game apart from maybe off creep queen or infested terrans. Thoughts? Edit: Although I do agree Fungal range is too large. Not sure why storm and emp are 1.5 but fungal is still 2. Yeah, they nerfed EMP radius, when they made ghosts cheaper (it was intented to be a buff, and at the time it hit, it worked out like a buff - even if Terrans these days face problems spending their gas): And they nerfed Storm way back in the beta days, which a beta is for. And they nerfed Fungal overall damage, after they gave fungal good dps. I don't see the point. All of those spells have been nerfed. Asking for a fungal radius nerf "because it's bigger than EMP/storm", makes no sense, even more so as out of the same arguement, zergs could ask for a storm damage nerf and an infestor cost buff, coming with a radius nerf. Not asking for those things, but the argument why fungal should get nerfed just doesn't make sense. The argument why it should get nerfed should rather be, that it might be too good. A counterargument for this is, that zerg doesn't have any other high dps ranged and/or air attacking unit at the time you build infestors. It wouldn't be too much of a problem in matchups where you can use high dps melee units that profit a lot from the rooting, but you know, in 2/3 zerg MUs this isn't always an option. Hydras are high DPS ranged AND air attacking units that can be deployed even quicker than infestors. If you use them on defense, they are even faster than the infestor and if you use them on the offense, they are JUST AS FAST as an infestor. So speed is clearly not the problem.
Their dps is quite mediocre for their role and costs. 14.5 dps on a 80health unit for 100/50(2) ist not really a lot.
You get 21dps(14 unstimmed) on 110-20 (stim) health for 100/0 (2) out of 2marines and even a marauder has 10dps stimmed and 105health when fighting nonarmored units... and we all know how that fight ends for the marauder.
I mean, if you control a deticated unit with +vs something properly you get way more dps, not to mention how much dps splash does.
I know that on paper Hydralisks 14.5 dps look nice, but it actually isn't even that much if you just statistically middle the damage of other units with bonus vs armored or light. And it's quite a waste if you hit a zergling every second shot with an immortal, but with 24.15 for 250/100 (4), it is still quite compareable to hydras dps.
And that's all before we start talking about the low HP. (which I think gives hydras a nice touch and an interesting role as the damage dealer behind tanky units like roaches or lings against singlefire units; 100HP hydras would just be boring)
|
On July 25 2012 18:33 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +Hydras are high DPS ranged AND air attacking units that can be deployed even quicker than infestors. If you use them on defense, they are even faster than the infestor and if you use them on the offense, they are JUST AS FAST as an infestor. So speed is clearly not the problem. Speed isnt the main issue with hydras. Its an issue for their use as mobile AA (as they are not small and cheap like marines nor as mobile as blinkstalkers), but their main issue is their cost and their performance. They are easily killed by any kind of ranged AE (siege tanks, Colossi, HT) without even doing damage, cant retreat (as Stalkers and stim marines will always catch them) and are not even performing well against core units (Stalker, Marine) Even with the hive tech speed upgrade from HotS I cant see Hydras get viable apart from all-ins or ZvZ.
Speed affects how fast you can form an arc around your opponent's army. It's actually how disgusting how much difference speed makes.
It's not even that hard to show. Go on unit tester right now and try 20 hydras vs 20 roaches, on and off creep.
|
|
|
On July 25 2012 18:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 18:08 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 25 2012 17:55 Big J wrote:On July 25 2012 13:58 -TesteR- wrote:On July 25 2012 13:54 Talack wrote:On July 25 2012 13:51 -TesteR- wrote:On July 25 2012 13:07 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On July 25 2012 12:54 BeeNu wrote:On July 25 2012 12:49 BlindKill wrote:
man if snipe nerf hadnt happened we would be seeing some boss preemptive baneling snipe while marine splitting Or we would just see Ghosts tearing apart every single Zerg unit above Tier 1 again. Pretty much what infestors and templars have been doing in vT since a long time. Those damn energy units. If only there was a unit that could take that energy away Perhaps even take away the energy of a bunch of units in AOE form? Nah, that'd be too imba. Oh well, one can dream. This would be a valid arguement if infestors weren't fast, had a huge range for their spells and zerg players didnt keep them in the back of their insanely fast moving army. I can't comment on zerg but he said protoss too. Templars are slower than hydras, in fact, they are slowest ground unit in the game apart from maybe off creep queen or infested terrans. Thoughts? Edit: Although I do agree Fungal range is too large. Not sure why storm and emp are 1.5 but fungal is still 2. Yeah, they nerfed EMP radius, when they made ghosts cheaper (it was intented to be a buff, and at the time it hit, it worked out like a buff - even if Terrans these days face problems spending their gas): And they nerfed Storm way back in the beta days, which a beta is for. And they nerfed Fungal overall damage, after they gave fungal good dps. I don't see the point. All of those spells have been nerfed. Asking for a fungal radius nerf "because it's bigger than EMP/storm", makes no sense, even more so as out of the same arguement, zergs could ask for a storm damage nerf and an infestor cost buff, coming with a radius nerf. Not asking for those things, but the argument why fungal should get nerfed just doesn't make sense. The argument why it should get nerfed should rather be, that it might be too good. A counterargument for this is, that zerg doesn't have any other high dps ranged and/or air attacking unit at the time you build infestors. It wouldn't be too much of a problem in matchups where you can use high dps melee units that profit a lot from the rooting, but you know, in 2/3 zerg MUs this isn't always an option. Hydras are high DPS ranged AND air attacking units that can be deployed even quicker than infestors. If you use them on defense, they are even faster than the infestor and if you use them on the offense, they are JUST AS FAST as an infestor. So speed is clearly not the problem. Their dps is quite mediocre for their role and costs. 14.5 dps on a 80health unit for 100/50(2) ist not really a lot. You get 21dps(14 unstimmed) on 110-20 (stim) health for 100/0 (2) out of 2marines and even a marauder has 10dps stimmed and 105health when fighting nonarmored units... and we all know how that fight ends for the marauder. I mean, if you control a deticated unit with +vs something properly you get way more dps, not to mention how much dps splash does. I know that on paper Hydralisks 14.5 dps look nice, but it actually isn't even that much if you just statistically middle the damage of other units with bonus vs armored or light. And it's quite a waste if you hit a zergling every second shot with an immortal, but with 24.15 for 250/100 (4), it is still quite compareable to hydras dps. And that's all before we start talking about the low HP. (which I think gives hydras a nice touch and an interesting role as the damage dealer behind tanky units like roaches or lings against singlefire units; 100HP hydras would just be boring) I would rather boring hydra that is used, than hydra used only in 20% of zvz.
|
People always tell me how battlecruisers are really weak. They lose to corruptors and infestors with neural parasite.
Battlecruisers in sc2 attack with a 'gatling' gun. They have a really high frequency attack but one which only deals around 5 (?) damage.
In BW they had a single strong attack which is a lot better against units with (high) armour.
Would changing the way a battlecruiser attack be good?
|
On July 25 2012 18:54 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 18:43 Big J wrote:On July 25 2012 18:08 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 25 2012 17:55 Big J wrote:On July 25 2012 13:58 -TesteR- wrote:On July 25 2012 13:54 Talack wrote:On July 25 2012 13:51 -TesteR- wrote:On July 25 2012 13:07 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On July 25 2012 12:54 BeeNu wrote:On July 25 2012 12:49 BlindKill wrote:
man if snipe nerf hadnt happened we would be seeing some boss preemptive baneling snipe while marine splitting Or we would just see Ghosts tearing apart every single Zerg unit above Tier 1 again. Pretty much what infestors and templars have been doing in vT since a long time. Those damn energy units. If only there was a unit that could take that energy away Perhaps even take away the energy of a bunch of units in AOE form? Nah, that'd be too imba. Oh well, one can dream. This would be a valid arguement if infestors weren't fast, had a huge range for their spells and zerg players didnt keep them in the back of their insanely fast moving army. I can't comment on zerg but he said protoss too. Templars are slower than hydras, in fact, they are slowest ground unit in the game apart from maybe off creep queen or infested terrans. Thoughts? Edit: Although I do agree Fungal range is too large. Not sure why storm and emp are 1.5 but fungal is still 2. Yeah, they nerfed EMP radius, when they made ghosts cheaper (it was intented to be a buff, and at the time it hit, it worked out like a buff - even if Terrans these days face problems spending their gas): And they nerfed Storm way back in the beta days, which a beta is for. And they nerfed Fungal overall damage, after they gave fungal good dps. I don't see the point. All of those spells have been nerfed. Asking for a fungal radius nerf "because it's bigger than EMP/storm", makes no sense, even more so as out of the same arguement, zergs could ask for a storm damage nerf and an infestor cost buff, coming with a radius nerf. Not asking for those things, but the argument why fungal should get nerfed just doesn't make sense. The argument why it should get nerfed should rather be, that it might be too good. A counterargument for this is, that zerg doesn't have any other high dps ranged and/or air attacking unit at the time you build infestors. It wouldn't be too much of a problem in matchups where you can use high dps melee units that profit a lot from the rooting, but you know, in 2/3 zerg MUs this isn't always an option. Hydras are high DPS ranged AND air attacking units that can be deployed even quicker than infestors. If you use them on defense, they are even faster than the infestor and if you use them on the offense, they are JUST AS FAST as an infestor. So speed is clearly not the problem. Their dps is quite mediocre for their role and costs. 14.5 dps on a 80health unit for 100/50(2) ist not really a lot. You get 21dps(14 unstimmed) on 110-20 (stim) health for 100/0 (2) out of 2marines and even a marauder has 10dps stimmed and 105health when fighting nonarmored units... and we all know how that fight ends for the marauder. I mean, if you control a deticated unit with +vs something properly you get way more dps, not to mention how much dps splash does. I know that on paper Hydralisks 14.5 dps look nice, but it actually isn't even that much if you just statistically middle the damage of other units with bonus vs armored or light. And it's quite a waste if you hit a zergling every second shot with an immortal, but with 24.15 for 250/100 (4), it is still quite compareable to hydras dps. And that's all before we start talking about the low HP. (which I think gives hydras a nice touch and an interesting role as the damage dealer behind tanky units like roaches or lings against singlefire units; 100HP hydras would just be boring) I would rather boring hydra that is used, than hydra used only in 20% of zvz.
I would rather like them to commit to the the tank + glass canon idea of roach/hydra, instead making both of them useful on their own. Right now, roaches are just too good on their own to make the addition of hydralisks a good choice, even if the opponent has units that you would want hydras on paper. On the other hand, the addition of hydras doesn't add a lot to your roach army right now, because they are plainly not good for their costs or supply.
I mean, an opponent with low damage units that can't take down your roach/ling front row fast and gives your glass canons behind time to unleash their damage? Sounds like any Protoss before Colossus tech and any zerg that plays roach.
Still in this perfect scenario, we only see Hydralisks very occasionally, because just going roach is sufficient, while adding hydras doesn't anything but costs more and slows you down and often times just make you more vulnerable when big splash is out that can be targeted at hydralisks without dealing with roaches first.
|
On July 25 2012 18:04 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 14:29 Lagcraft wrote:On July 25 2012 14:07 Charon1979 wrote:Yeah, the other thing I was contemplating was changing the fungal to missile. I saw a good video on it but I can't find it now. It would make more sense that fungal could be dodgeable. Both storm and emp are dodgeable. That in itself could balance out the TvZ issue and increases the skill cap of both Zerg and Terran. Thats an illusion. Storm is not dodgeable. Yes you can run out and prevent taking the full damage, but you will ALWAYS get damage. Further you are writing that from a terran POV, where you just run out of a storm and medivacs heal you up so that it seems no real damage was done (you can see how your marines are melting, even if you ran in an instant). Thats not the truth for Z. No matter how fast you move your Lings out, they will die in a maximum of 2 Storms. Additional Storm stays, even if you miss it, which is not true for fungal. EMP is not dodgeable either. Yes technically it is a missile, but it travels fast and is nearly instant. But i can understand why you liked the PTR fungal... the missile was so slow that fungal would be no more issue to any race. Lol. Ok. First off: storm is dodgeable with any kind of vaguely-fast moving unit, especially if you use your intuition to guess where the storm is going to hit. Yes, you still get hit. But, you can move out of the way from taking the full damage. And no, your zerglings don't die in 2 hits to storms no matter what. Lings are the fastest unit in the game. Stimmed marines (35 hp) without medivacs don't die in 2 hits to storms if you move them away properly. With fungal, if you're hit, you're screwed. It's instacast. You have no time to react whatsoever to seeing an infestor unburrow or pop out of the Fog of War. Yes, you could say the same thing with EMP. But EMP doesn't kill units or immobilize them. Since it is a missile you can guess where it's going to hit and minimize the damage. Sure you can split against fungal, but only preemptively. I am not talking about bringing in the PTR fungal. That's stupid. I'm talking about making it nearly as fast as EMP, if not just as fast. This would solve the problem in ZvZ where you can chain fungals are too useful against mutas. And it would increase the skill cap of both Zerg and Terran, like previously stated. Honestly, it's hardly a nerf in the hands of a capable player. It makes it so that your units can be microed more to improve the usefulness of them. Isn't that what everyone who likes BW hates about SC2? That the units are too good at a-moving? How on earth is a projectile preventing the chaining of fungals? Even with a projectile, the second fungal will hit, because no matter how slow the projectile, it's just a matter of timing the casts right.
I say Fungals should be a blob slowly being lobbed out of the Infestor's whatever-it-comes-from. Not only Zergs would have to micro their Fungals better, but PDD can also be used to negate them.
|
On July 25 2012 19:18 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 18:54 Tuczniak wrote:On July 25 2012 18:43 Big J wrote:On July 25 2012 18:08 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 25 2012 17:55 Big J wrote:On July 25 2012 13:58 -TesteR- wrote:On July 25 2012 13:54 Talack wrote:On July 25 2012 13:51 -TesteR- wrote:On July 25 2012 13:07 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On July 25 2012 12:54 BeeNu wrote:
[quote]
Or we would just see Ghosts tearing apart every single Zerg unit above Tier 1 again. Pretty much what infestors and templars have been doing in vT since a long time. Those damn energy units. If only there was a unit that could take that energy away Perhaps even take away the energy of a bunch of units in AOE form? Nah, that'd be too imba. Oh well, one can dream. This would be a valid arguement if infestors weren't fast, had a huge range for their spells and zerg players didnt keep them in the back of their insanely fast moving army. I can't comment on zerg but he said protoss too. Templars are slower than hydras, in fact, they are slowest ground unit in the game apart from maybe off creep queen or infested terrans. Thoughts? Edit: Although I do agree Fungal range is too large. Not sure why storm and emp are 1.5 but fungal is still 2. Yeah, they nerfed EMP radius, when they made ghosts cheaper (it was intented to be a buff, and at the time it hit, it worked out like a buff - even if Terrans these days face problems spending their gas): And they nerfed Storm way back in the beta days, which a beta is for. And they nerfed Fungal overall damage, after they gave fungal good dps. I don't see the point. All of those spells have been nerfed. Asking for a fungal radius nerf "because it's bigger than EMP/storm", makes no sense, even more so as out of the same arguement, zergs could ask for a storm damage nerf and an infestor cost buff, coming with a radius nerf. Not asking for those things, but the argument why fungal should get nerfed just doesn't make sense. The argument why it should get nerfed should rather be, that it might be too good. A counterargument for this is, that zerg doesn't have any other high dps ranged and/or air attacking unit at the time you build infestors. It wouldn't be too much of a problem in matchups where you can use high dps melee units that profit a lot from the rooting, but you know, in 2/3 zerg MUs this isn't always an option. Hydras are high DPS ranged AND air attacking units that can be deployed even quicker than infestors. If you use them on defense, they are even faster than the infestor and if you use them on the offense, they are JUST AS FAST as an infestor. So speed is clearly not the problem. Their dps is quite mediocre for their role and costs. 14.5 dps on a 80health unit for 100/50(2) ist not really a lot. You get 21dps(14 unstimmed) on 110-20 (stim) health for 100/0 (2) out of 2marines and even a marauder has 10dps stimmed and 105health when fighting nonarmored units... and we all know how that fight ends for the marauder. I mean, if you control a deticated unit with +vs something properly you get way more dps, not to mention how much dps splash does. I know that on paper Hydralisks 14.5 dps look nice, but it actually isn't even that much if you just statistically middle the damage of other units with bonus vs armored or light. And it's quite a waste if you hit a zergling every second shot with an immortal, but with 24.15 for 250/100 (4), it is still quite compareable to hydras dps. And that's all before we start talking about the low HP. (which I think gives hydras a nice touch and an interesting role as the damage dealer behind tanky units like roaches or lings against singlefire units; 100HP hydras would just be boring) I would rather boring hydra that is used, than hydra used only in 20% of zvz. I would rather like them to commit to the the tank + glass canon idea of roach/hydra, instead making both of them useful on their own. Right now, roaches are just too good on their own to make the addition of hydralisks a good choice, even if the opponent has units that you would want hydras on paper. On the other hand, the addition of hydras doesn't add a lot to your roach army right now, because they are plainly not good for their costs or supply. I mean, an opponent with low damage units that can't take down your roach/ling front row fast and gives your glass canons behind time to unleash their damage? Sounds like any Protoss before Colossus tech and any zerg that plays roach. Still in this perfect scenario, we only see Hydralisks very occasionally, because just going roach is sufficient, while adding hydras doesn't anything but costs more and slows you down and often times just make you more vulnerable when big splash is out that can be targeted at hydralisks without dealing with roaches first. I didn't mean to say they should get +20hp. Just hydras are in good spot for change, they are used just in one MU and they had straightforward role. You wont mess balance in all MUs if you tweak them a little.
PS: To fungal projectile. This maybe good for TvZ, but we should be careful. In PvZ blink stalkers can be almost broken and if they could dodge fungal... + there is quite a room for stalker blink micro, most pros don't do it even close to level what they could do.
And fungal projectile could be balanced for 150apm master player, but with 350apm code S player balace looks pretty different. We don't wont marines with medivacs dodge banelings and fungals and amove through everything else.
PS2: I though it might be good for T have in armory upgrade, something like "polished surfaces" which would make fungal dmg against vikings (+- some other mech) 0, while immobilize would stay.
|
Lol PDD negating fungals, gg.
|
On July 25 2012 18:51 Ryhzuo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 18:33 Charon1979 wrote:Hydras are high DPS ranged AND air attacking units that can be deployed even quicker than infestors. If you use them on defense, they are even faster than the infestor and if you use them on the offense, they are JUST AS FAST as an infestor. So speed is clearly not the problem. Speed isnt the main issue with hydras. Its an issue for their use as mobile AA (as they are not small and cheap like marines nor as mobile as blinkstalkers), but their main issue is their cost and their performance. They are easily killed by any kind of ranged AE (siege tanks, Colossi, HT) without even doing damage, cant retreat (as Stalkers and stim marines will always catch them) and are not even performing well against core units (Stalker, Marine) Even with the hive tech speed upgrade from HotS I cant see Hydras get viable apart from all-ins or ZvZ. Speed affects how fast you can form an arc around your opponent's army. It's actually how disgusting how much difference speed makes. It's not even that hard to show. Go on unit tester right now and try 20 hydras vs 20 roaches, on and off creep.
20 Hydras vs 20 Roaches on creep (both no upgrades) 4 Hydra survive (costwise 2000/1000 vs 1500/500 - bad trade)
20 Hydras vs 20 Roaches off creep (both no upgrades) 4 Roaches survive (even worse trade)
20 Hydras (Range) vs 20 Roaches (Speed) on creep 6 Hydra survive (still a bad trade, but more even)
20 Hydras (Range) vs 20 Roaches (Speed) off creep 3 Hydra survive (bad trade)
So this clearly shows RANGE -> Speed
Hydra would even be mor effective if the where smaller
20 Hydras vs 40 Marines on creep 3 Marines survive (you get the picture)
20 Hydras vs 40 Marines off creep 12 Marines survive (same speed!)
20 Hydras (Range) vs 40 Marines (Shields) on creep 2 Hydras survive (Range wins again!)
20 Hydras (Range) vs 40 Marines (Shields) off creep 2 Hydras survive (Range... not Speed)
|
On July 25 2012 19:27 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 19:18 Big J wrote:On July 25 2012 18:54 Tuczniak wrote:On July 25 2012 18:43 Big J wrote:On July 25 2012 18:08 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 25 2012 17:55 Big J wrote:On July 25 2012 13:58 -TesteR- wrote:On July 25 2012 13:54 Talack wrote:On July 25 2012 13:51 -TesteR- wrote:On July 25 2012 13:07 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
[quote]
Pretty much what infestors and templars have been doing in vT since a long time. Those damn energy units. If only there was a unit that could take that energy away Perhaps even take away the energy of a bunch of units in AOE form? Nah, that'd be too imba. Oh well, one can dream. This would be a valid arguement if infestors weren't fast, had a huge range for their spells and zerg players didnt keep them in the back of their insanely fast moving army. I can't comment on zerg but he said protoss too. Templars are slower than hydras, in fact, they are slowest ground unit in the game apart from maybe off creep queen or infested terrans. Thoughts? Edit: Although I do agree Fungal range is too large. Not sure why storm and emp are 1.5 but fungal is still 2. Yeah, they nerfed EMP radius, when they made ghosts cheaper (it was intented to be a buff, and at the time it hit, it worked out like a buff - even if Terrans these days face problems spending their gas): And they nerfed Storm way back in the beta days, which a beta is for. And they nerfed Fungal overall damage, after they gave fungal good dps. I don't see the point. All of those spells have been nerfed. Asking for a fungal radius nerf "because it's bigger than EMP/storm", makes no sense, even more so as out of the same arguement, zergs could ask for a storm damage nerf and an infestor cost buff, coming with a radius nerf. Not asking for those things, but the argument why fungal should get nerfed just doesn't make sense. The argument why it should get nerfed should rather be, that it might be too good. A counterargument for this is, that zerg doesn't have any other high dps ranged and/or air attacking unit at the time you build infestors. It wouldn't be too much of a problem in matchups where you can use high dps melee units that profit a lot from the rooting, but you know, in 2/3 zerg MUs this isn't always an option. Hydras are high DPS ranged AND air attacking units that can be deployed even quicker than infestors. If you use them on defense, they are even faster than the infestor and if you use them on the offense, they are JUST AS FAST as an infestor. So speed is clearly not the problem. Their dps is quite mediocre for their role and costs. 14.5 dps on a 80health unit for 100/50(2) ist not really a lot. You get 21dps(14 unstimmed) on 110-20 (stim) health for 100/0 (2) out of 2marines and even a marauder has 10dps stimmed and 105health when fighting nonarmored units... and we all know how that fight ends for the marauder. I mean, if you control a deticated unit with +vs something properly you get way more dps, not to mention how much dps splash does. I know that on paper Hydralisks 14.5 dps look nice, but it actually isn't even that much if you just statistically middle the damage of other units with bonus vs armored or light. And it's quite a waste if you hit a zergling every second shot with an immortal, but with 24.15 for 250/100 (4), it is still quite compareable to hydras dps. And that's all before we start talking about the low HP. (which I think gives hydras a nice touch and an interesting role as the damage dealer behind tanky units like roaches or lings against singlefire units; 100HP hydras would just be boring) I would rather boring hydra that is used, than hydra used only in 20% of zvz. I would rather like them to commit to the the tank + glass canon idea of roach/hydra, instead making both of them useful on their own. Right now, roaches are just too good on their own to make the addition of hydralisks a good choice, even if the opponent has units that you would want hydras on paper. On the other hand, the addition of hydras doesn't add a lot to your roach army right now, because they are plainly not good for their costs or supply. I mean, an opponent with low damage units that can't take down your roach/ling front row fast and gives your glass canons behind time to unleash their damage? Sounds like any Protoss before Colossus tech and any zerg that plays roach. Still in this perfect scenario, we only see Hydralisks very occasionally, because just going roach is sufficient, while adding hydras doesn't anything but costs more and slows you down and often times just make you more vulnerable when big splash is out that can be targeted at hydralisks without dealing with roaches first. I didn't mean to say they should get +20hp. Just hydras are in good spot for change, they are used just in one MU and they had straightforward role. You wont mess balance in all MUs if you tweak them a little.
yeah, but I don't see why you would buff zerg right now. PvZ is quite even, TvZ (even if not affected by a potential hydrabuff) looks quite good for zerg.
I think the idea should be to get hydras into the game instead of units that fulfill similar roles right now, without making the other unit too weak. Like Infestors which are quite overused from a desing point of view. Or Broodlords. Or Corruptors.
Basically it's those 3, that share roles with the hydralisk. The corruptor imo is boring but fine, the Broodlords are quite more flexible than just being a siege unit - they are basically one of the best antiground units in the game - and infestors... I mean, which role don't they fullfill?
Ranged damage support? check! (shouldn't hydralisks be better for that by design? Yet they aren't.)
Anti Air? check! (with 9range and more dps on fungal and ITs than hydras, quite better than those)
Forcing engagements? check! (Something a good ranged unit could help out as well with)
Harassing the opponent? check!
so: take away from the infestor and/or the broodlord, give to the hydralisk --> less ridicolous lategame composition; Smoother transition into hightech (stronger prehive after mass roach midgame; staying longer on midgame tech); and to prevent midgame roach/hydra being too strong against Protoss, make some of the effects require hivetech and turn the roach more into a tanking unit, that is less costefficient on its own. (like 100/25 +1armor or +15HP)
Sideeffects? Could possibly solve some ZvT issues as well (weaker Broods and Infestors), that have occured since the last patch. Could lead to some hydrause in ZvT. Might turn lategame ZvZ in mass Hydra wars - until people find out that banelings are quite good and that the front roachrow is imperative
|
On July 25 2012 19:22 NAPoleonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 18:04 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 25 2012 14:29 Lagcraft wrote:On July 25 2012 14:07 Charon1979 wrote:Yeah, the other thing I was contemplating was changing the fungal to missile. I saw a good video on it but I can't find it now. It would make more sense that fungal could be dodgeable. Both storm and emp are dodgeable. That in itself could balance out the TvZ issue and increases the skill cap of both Zerg and Terran. Thats an illusion. Storm is not dodgeable. Yes you can run out and prevent taking the full damage, but you will ALWAYS get damage. Further you are writing that from a terran POV, where you just run out of a storm and medivacs heal you up so that it seems no real damage was done (you can see how your marines are melting, even if you ran in an instant). Thats not the truth for Z. No matter how fast you move your Lings out, they will die in a maximum of 2 Storms. Additional Storm stays, even if you miss it, which is not true for fungal. EMP is not dodgeable either. Yes technically it is a missile, but it travels fast and is nearly instant. But i can understand why you liked the PTR fungal... the missile was so slow that fungal would be no more issue to any race. Lol. Ok. First off: storm is dodgeable with any kind of vaguely-fast moving unit, especially if you use your intuition to guess where the storm is going to hit. Yes, you still get hit. But, you can move out of the way from taking the full damage. And no, your zerglings don't die in 2 hits to storms no matter what. Lings are the fastest unit in the game. Stimmed marines (35 hp) without medivacs don't die in 2 hits to storms if you move them away properly. With fungal, if you're hit, you're screwed. It's instacast. You have no time to react whatsoever to seeing an infestor unburrow or pop out of the Fog of War. Yes, you could say the same thing with EMP. But EMP doesn't kill units or immobilize them. Since it is a missile you can guess where it's going to hit and minimize the damage. Sure you can split against fungal, but only preemptively. I am not talking about bringing in the PTR fungal. That's stupid. I'm talking about making it nearly as fast as EMP, if not just as fast. This would solve the problem in ZvZ where you can chain fungals are too useful against mutas. And it would increase the skill cap of both Zerg and Terran, like previously stated. Honestly, it's hardly a nerf in the hands of a capable player. It makes it so that your units can be microed more to improve the usefulness of them. Isn't that what everyone who likes BW hates about SC2? That the units are too good at a-moving? How on earth is a projectile preventing the chaining of fungals? Even with a projectile, the second fungal will hit, because no matter how slow the projectile, it's just a matter of timing the casts right. I say Fungals should be a blob slowly being lobbed out of the Infestor's whatever-it-comes-from. Not only Zergs would have to micro their Fungals better, but PDD can also be used to negate them.
I don't think PDD should negate them or that it should move slowly. I was just saying that when you make fungal a projectile instead of instacast it makes it harder to get hit in the first place unless in the hands of a capable player.
|
On July 25 2012 14:06 Talack wrote:
As for the templars vs terran it's just an "is what it is" kind of thing, tvp can be decided with some emps where it's a one sided battle (not easy at all with a full archon/zealot/collosus/templar army vs a terran army of similar counter-composition, but that's for another discussion) and the entire game can be lost from a single storm taking out or weakening units enough.
Which is a problem because both parties invest a lot of time in the game, beginning with base construction and initial harass/rush/defence, only to win or lose based on how well a single EMP works or something like that. In tournaments, well, you either win or lose, what sucks is that it isn't necessarily the difference in skill between you and the other guy which decides the game. But if you play 10 TvPs on ladder with your precious free time, that just sucks. I can understand half-hour games being decided within seconds if it happens from sheer dps when both parties go for a massive engagement with a specific unit composition or someone tries to bust the front or something.
And for the templar vs terran thing, thors/bcs are slow moving and short-ranged units that for some reason are hard countered by feed-back.
I suppose the only reason Thor has been given back the energy bar is to make it vulnerable to Feedback.
You "can' emp before battle but lets be honest that's just not viable outside of specific situations which are not exactly as easy as one would think to prepare for. Alot of protosses say "well protoss deserves to win because it's t3 vs t1' but terran has no unit that isn't hard-countered by feedback for some reason.
BCs die horribly to storm as well, let alone banshees (including cloaked). Let's not forget insta-kills on fully loaded medivacs. All this for a mere 50 energy. And EMP was supposedly imba and needed to be nerfed, yeah.
Same with infestors, they counter everything terran has, it might not be one-sided but it's a unit that can beat every single unit combination that terran can make and should have some drawbacks to it's relatively cheap cost, low tech position (for strength, templar/ghost are not "as powerful" as an infestor) fast movement speed and relative strength of spell vs energy cost.
At least the problem with mass targetting of massive units with NP has been solved.
|
Regarding hydralisk, range is also a problem at least in ZvP.
Without 150/150 range upgrade, it has 5 range.
5 range means hydralisk cannot shoot sentry/stalker behind forcefields.
6 range means hydralisk CAN shoot back.
In order to get ranged hydralisk, you need to
50/0 drone sacrifice
100/100 hydralisk den
150/150 range upgrade
=300/250 total + potential mining time for sacrificed drone
just to get there.
So, more often than not, it is worth getting 4 more roaches (mineral wise) or 10 more roaches (gas wise).
I think range upgrade is too expensive.
Blink is 150/150, and so is hydralisk range but not nearly as useful. Although research time is very short, it doesn't often matter as resource is the limiting factor.
I wouldn't ask for any change at this point, but we might have seen more hydralisk use if it had 6 range at start without upgrade option.
|
On July 25 2012 19:41 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 18:51 Ryhzuo wrote:On July 25 2012 18:33 Charon1979 wrote:Hydras are high DPS ranged AND air attacking units that can be deployed even quicker than infestors. If you use them on defense, they are even faster than the infestor and if you use them on the offense, they are JUST AS FAST as an infestor. So speed is clearly not the problem. Speed isnt the main issue with hydras. Its an issue for their use as mobile AA (as they are not small and cheap like marines nor as mobile as blinkstalkers), but their main issue is their cost and their performance. They are easily killed by any kind of ranged AE (siege tanks, Colossi, HT) without even doing damage, cant retreat (as Stalkers and stim marines will always catch them) and are not even performing well against core units (Stalker, Marine) Even with the hive tech speed upgrade from HotS I cant see Hydras get viable apart from all-ins or ZvZ. Speed affects how fast you can form an arc around your opponent's army. It's actually how disgusting how much difference speed makes. It's not even that hard to show. Go on unit tester right now and try 20 hydras vs 20 roaches, on and off creep. 20 Hydras vs 20 Roaches on creep (both no upgrades) 4 Hydra survive (costwise 2000/1000 vs 1500/500 - bad trade) 20 Hydras vs 20 Roaches off creep (both no upgrades) 4 Roaches survive (even worse trade) 20 Hydras (Range) vs 20 Roaches (Speed) on creep 6 Hydra survive (still a bad trade, but more even) 20 Hydras (Range) vs 20 Roaches (Speed) off creep 3 Hydra survive (bad trade) So this clearly shows RANGE -> Speed Hydra would even be mor effective if the where smaller 20 Hydras vs 40 Marines on creep 3 Marines survive (you get the picture) 20 Hydras vs 40 Marines off creep 12 Marines survive (same speed!) 20 Hydras (Range) vs 40 Marines (Shields) on creep 2 Hydras survive (Range wins again!) 20 Hydras (Range) vs 40 Marines (Shields) off creep 2 Hydras survive (Range... not Speed)
Let me assume that none of these fights actually included any "stutter-step-micro"? Because that should make Hydras win on creep a lot more against anything they outrange. Since they are as fast as a stimmed Marine on creep (and everywhere once players have that research available in HotS) that boost ability probably should not be considered as imba as many claim it to be.
|
On July 25 2012 21:32 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 19:41 Charon1979 wrote:On July 25 2012 18:51 Ryhzuo wrote:On July 25 2012 18:33 Charon1979 wrote:Hydras are high DPS ranged AND air attacking units that can be deployed even quicker than infestors. If you use them on defense, they are even faster than the infestor and if you use them on the offense, they are JUST AS FAST as an infestor. So speed is clearly not the problem. Speed isnt the main issue with hydras. Its an issue for their use as mobile AA (as they are not small and cheap like marines nor as mobile as blinkstalkers), but their main issue is their cost and their performance. They are easily killed by any kind of ranged AE (siege tanks, Colossi, HT) without even doing damage, cant retreat (as Stalkers and stim marines will always catch them) and are not even performing well against core units (Stalker, Marine) Even with the hive tech speed upgrade from HotS I cant see Hydras get viable apart from all-ins or ZvZ. Speed affects how fast you can form an arc around your opponent's army. It's actually how disgusting how much difference speed makes. It's not even that hard to show. Go on unit tester right now and try 20 hydras vs 20 roaches, on and off creep. 20 Hydras vs 20 Roaches on creep (both no upgrades) 4 Hydra survive (costwise 2000/1000 vs 1500/500 - bad trade) 20 Hydras vs 20 Roaches off creep (both no upgrades) 4 Roaches survive (even worse trade) 20 Hydras (Range) vs 20 Roaches (Speed) on creep 6 Hydra survive (still a bad trade, but more even) 20 Hydras (Range) vs 20 Roaches (Speed) off creep 3 Hydra survive (bad trade) So this clearly shows RANGE -> Speed Hydra would even be mor effective if the where smaller 20 Hydras vs 40 Marines on creep 3 Marines survive (you get the picture) 20 Hydras vs 40 Marines off creep 12 Marines survive (same speed!) 20 Hydras (Range) vs 40 Marines (Shields) on creep 2 Hydras survive (Range wins again!) 20 Hydras (Range) vs 40 Marines (Shields) off creep 2 Hydras survive (Range... not Speed) Let me assume that none of these fights actually included any "stutter-step-micro"? Because that should make Hydras win on creep a lot more against anything they outrange. Since they are as fast as a stimmed Marine on creep (and everywhere once players have that research available in HotS) that boost ability probably should not be considered as imba as many claim it to be.
No micro on both sides. Note also that these are just results in a sterile environment. There is no way hydras will have a range upgrade before the roach player has speed. Also there is no way that 20 hydras will face 20 roaches (more like 30 - 40). Even if that is so, the roach player will have an upgrade advantage.
As far as the Marine "experiment" goes, there is also no way that this amount of hydra is out before, Stim + Combatshield + Medivacs are out. There is just no timing to hit, so even on creep stutterstepping the hydras would be a waste as stim is already done. Also dont forget the Marine force is down 1000 gas. Thats a lot of Upgrades available.
|
I just want to address the trend of Zergs claiming Terran just needs to make Ghosts and they will be fine. Currently, ghosts are shit in TvZ. Ya, you could say "Well, they counter the Infestor so they will help". The problem is that right now, Zerg have absolutely no reason to fear the ghost because the ghost sucks vs. anything EXCEPT the Infestor. Whereas the Infestor is good against everything vs. Terran.
You can't compare Infestor vs. Ghost to HT vs. Ghost. In TvP, if a Protoss loses his templar (to EMP or snipe), he's in trouble because he won't have storm to compete with the Terran frontload dmg of EMP. That's because EMP is devastating to the rest of the Protoss army. This isn't the case TvZ. If I snipe all of your Infestors, I'm now stuck with useless ghosts that have no capitalization like they do vs. Protoss. If you fungal or ling surround my ghosts, I lose the game to typical BL/Infestor rollover. If I EMP your clumped infestors (again relying on mistakes from the zerg player -_-), you just back up and all I've done is postpone my death.
Even in the scenarios where Terran does well, and Zerg doesn't, the Ghost is dead supply after the fact similar to the way Vikings are once Colossus have been dealt with. If the Vikings kill the Colossus, big deal, it's not like the Protoss fears the almighty Landed Vikings. But if the Vikings die and there is still Colossus left, GG Terran. I don't mean to complain about TvP as I was just trying to look for a similar comparison in the game, but you get my point in TvZ. Anyways, stop saying ghosts solve TvZ. It's not true. I believe in the Raven/BC comp but its already been beaten to death why that's not viable to get to.
|
On July 25 2012 21:32 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 19:41 Charon1979 wrote:On July 25 2012 18:51 Ryhzuo wrote:On July 25 2012 18:33 Charon1979 wrote:Hydras are high DPS ranged AND air attacking units that can be deployed even quicker than infestors. If you use them on defense, they are even faster than the infestor and if you use them on the offense, they are JUST AS FAST as an infestor. So speed is clearly not the problem. Speed isnt the main issue with hydras. Its an issue for their use as mobile AA (as they are not small and cheap like marines nor as mobile as blinkstalkers), but their main issue is their cost and their performance. They are easily killed by any kind of ranged AE (siege tanks, Colossi, HT) without even doing damage, cant retreat (as Stalkers and stim marines will always catch them) and are not even performing well against core units (Stalker, Marine) Even with the hive tech speed upgrade from HotS I cant see Hydras get viable apart from all-ins or ZvZ. Speed affects how fast you can form an arc around your opponent's army. It's actually how disgusting how much difference speed makes. It's not even that hard to show. Go on unit tester right now and try 20 hydras vs 20 roaches, on and off creep. 20 Hydras vs 20 Roaches on creep (both no upgrades) 4 Hydra survive (costwise 2000/1000 vs 1500/500 - bad trade) 20 Hydras vs 20 Roaches off creep (both no upgrades) 4 Roaches survive (even worse trade) 20 Hydras (Range) vs 20 Roaches (Speed) on creep 6 Hydra survive (still a bad trade, but more even) 20 Hydras (Range) vs 20 Roaches (Speed) off creep 3 Hydra survive (bad trade) So this clearly shows RANGE -> Speed Hydra would even be mor effective if the where smaller 20 Hydras vs 40 Marines on creep 3 Marines survive (you get the picture) 20 Hydras vs 40 Marines off creep 12 Marines survive (same speed!) 20 Hydras (Range) vs 40 Marines (Shields) on creep 2 Hydras survive (Range wins again!) 20 Hydras (Range) vs 40 Marines (Shields) off creep 2 Hydras survive (Range... not Speed) Let me assume that none of these fights actually included any "stutter-step-micro"? Because that should make Hydras win on creep a lot more against anything they outrange. Since they are as fast as a stimmed Marine on creep (and everywhere once players have that research available in HotS) that boost ability probably should not be considered as imba as many claim it to be.
Played around with it on the Unit Test map right now as well:
Yeah, that's another big problem with hydras: their attack animation takes quite long and if you do it in a way, that every hydrashot hits, roaches with 3.9 speed (on creep) vs hydras with 3.37speed (on creep) will also hit always.
I found a weird rythm, in which you stutter step a hydralisk very slowly, and you will be able to get two shots of, while the roach only gets one. But this is under the assumption that the roach is a clicked and you kind of "cancel" one shot, because the roach stops at 4range but doesn't quite have the next attack ready. If the roaches are stutterstepped in, they get every shot off as well and you just lose shots with the hydras this way. As stimmed marines are as fast as hydralisks and have one more range than a roach, I don't think it is possible to stutter step them with 6range hydras on creep, nor do I think you can stutterstep anything that is over melee range with decent speed with hydras. And even then, I guess it is simple better to build some extra roaches and have them buffer the damage.
Even funnier, the upper data is only true for 0-0. I just did the "amove"-battle (spread out, so that there would not be weird clumping):
-) 24roaches (with speed) vs 24hydralisks (with range) on creep with 3-3: 9roaches survive.
Makes a lot of sense mathematically: 3-3roaches have 9.5dps (instead of 8) vs 3-3 hydralisks, while 3-3hydras still have 14.5 vs roaches.
So yeah... I guess you get what I'm trying to say. Why invest an extra 100/100 + 150/150 upgrade to be able to produce 100/50(2) units, when I can get a similar effect for 75/25(2) already. The one difference, is when you have a huge buffer for hydras. Ergo when you are already high supply in the later midgame or lategame. Which you can only do, if your opponent does not counter roach/hydra... which is basically only the case in ZvZ.
|
Anyone who thinks you can't dodge Storm to a meaningful degree needs to watch Taeja vs First from MLG Summer Arena. I like seeing things like that because it shows that great control can trump a really powerful ability. With Fungal, this doesn't happen unless you pre-split, which in many cases isn't feasible. I'd very much prefer to see Fungal lose its rooting effect and gain something else (perhaps any unit outrightly killed by Fungal spawns a Broodling?)
|
Anyone who thinks you can't dodge Storm to a meaningful degree needs to watch Taeja vs First from MLG Summer Arena.
You always take minimum of 20 damage. Yes, you dont take the full 80 but there is "hidden" damage.
Even if I pull back my units perfectly, I get damaged by the storm AND get free hits from the toss army. Fungal roots you but in most cases zerg units are medium ranged or melee units, so you can always fight back. You cant fight back AND dodge the storm. If you decide to fight back, you take even twice the damage of fungal. The number of free hits storm generates on a zerg army is quite huge, maby not so huge against T because they are already at range and a step back means the stalker are out of range too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
