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On July 24 2012 23:51 Shasta37 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 20:50 Instigata wrote:
It's clear sc2 has become zerg, protoss, and koreans. Besides the nordic hero Thorzain, the lack of good foreign koreans shows what it takes to be a championship material korean. You all will quote random korean names and say they are good but results matter, and not online results which could easily be tainted with hacking. Notice how there are quite a few guys who win these petty online tournies but are double out guys in offline? Nerves... that must be it.
Another lame excuse for the lack of foreign koreans tournament results is they don't have time to travel. Well then they shouldn't be that good anyways at the pro level if they cannot travel to a tournament. At the pro level, part time pro-gamers should get their heads smashed in by people devoted a career to this.
That's what is bad and good about this game. Part-timers like Stephano and other foreigners can make deep runs in tournaments which can be good to keep the scene fresh and give non-pros a chance to take out a name or two in a tournament.
The bad is what happened to koreans. They are the race that needs the 8 hours a day to make results at the top level. Some of you will troll yourself and say foreigners train just as much but are you serious? All foreigners besides CJ Idra left Korea due to training requirements just to play BW. What makes you think that's changed?
I bet a week in a foreign team house is a few games of sc2 in the morning, hang out and eat with your friends. A little more sc2 in the afternoon before going out for girls/(hookers maybe if they are in Korea) then calling it a night. A few days before a tourney train for 8 hours a day. That sounds more fun and I'd play zerg or toss over having to grind 8 hours a day to stay competitive with korean. This is pretty spot on. Unfortunately, your probably about to be bombarded by the "Well Korean is still balanced at the top level". At some point, players returning to the game (good and bad) are just going to switch from Korean to protoss or zerg. Hell, it's already happened if you look at sc2ranks. I've been working on my offraces seriously for the first time in prep for HOTS because it just isn't practical for me to play Korean anymore.
EDIT: Only 1 of top 5 Foreigners is Terran. Kas is the only one. 
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The thing is that snipe nerf was done wrong, it was supposed to make snipe less useful against Ultra/BL tech, but what it did was that snipe became useless against Ultra/BL tech and it also has not been used ever in TvZ (or TvT) since the nerf.
Blizzard should have taken slower pace with reducing the damage. A good start would have been just try to nerf it down to 35 damage (+15 to light and psionic). If that felt still too strong they could have reduced it lower. Of course I would never expect that Blizzard would have reduced the damage twice, even if it meant better results.
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On July 24 2012 20:50 Instigata wrote:
It's clear sc2 has become zerg, protoss, and koreans. Besides the nordic hero Thorzain, the lack of good foreign koreans shows what it takes to be a championship material korean. You all will quote random korean names and say they are good but results matter, and not online results which could easily be tainted with hacking. Notice how there are quite a few guys who win these petty online tournies but are double out guys in offline? Nerves... that must be it.
Another lame excuse for the lack of foreign koreans tournament results is they don't have time to travel. Well then they shouldn't be that good anyways at the pro level if they cannot travel to a tournament. At the pro level, part time pro-gamers should get their heads smashed in by people devoted a career to this.
That's what is bad and good about this game. Part-timers like Stephano and other foreigners can make deep runs in tournaments which can be good to keep the scene fresh and give non-pros a chance to take out a name or two in a tournament.
The bad is what happened to koreans. They are the race that needs the 8 hours a day to make results at the top level. Some of you will troll yourself and say foreigners train just as much but are you serious? All foreigners besides CJ Idra left Korea due to training requirements just to play BW. What makes you think that's changed?
I bet a week in a foreign team house is a few games of sc2 in the morning, hang out and eat with your friends. A little more sc2 in the afternoon before going out for girls/(hookers maybe if they are in Korea) then calling it a night. A few days before a tourney train for 8 hours a day. That sounds more fun and I'd play zerg or toss over having to grind 8 hours a day to stay competitive with korean.
The best excuse is that foreign Koreans are less talented than their Protoss and Zerg counterparts, which is just rubbish.
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On July 25 2012 00:43 Lagcraft wrote:
Problem: Late game Zerg with infestor / brood lord with quick tech-switches to infestor - ultra makes it extraordinarily difficult for Terran to properly combat Zerg armies. Ghosts are rarely used anymore due to the EMP radius nerfs, making it hard to EMP more than 2-3 infestors at a time, as well as the snipe nerfs.
Solution: Make snipe do +20 damage (or +25 damage) vs. Massive.
This stops the abuse of using snipe vs every Zerg unit, while maintaining it's usefulness. I also propose that snipe keep its +25 damage vs. Psionic to keep it useful vs both HT and Infestors. (edit: and I guess other ghosts? Lol.)
Side Effects:
Pros:
- Increases skill cap of both Terran and Zerg
- Balances out late-game TvZ
- Promotes necessity of micro
- Gives Terran a good multipurpose spellcaster instead of highly delegated roles of straight counters
Cons:
- Balances out late-game ZvT
- May temporarily put balance of ZvT in Terran favor until slightly different end game compositions are standard. (eg. use of roaches, adrenal-gland lings, etc.)
Sky/Mech Terran deals with this just fine.
Ghost Snipe should be 40/45/50 damage (25/30 vs Massive).
Btw, this makes ZvT lategame on certain maps completely impossible. Any map that allows for split scenario wtih Pf/Tank and disallows Nydus/Drop play means autowin Terran.
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On July 25 2012 01:13 Toastie.NL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 00:43 Lagcraft wrote:
Problem: Late game Zerg with infestor / brood lord with quick tech-switches to infestor - ultra makes it extraordinarily difficult for Terran to properly combat Zerg armies. Ghosts are rarely used anymore due to the EMP radius nerfs, making it hard to EMP more than 2-3 infestors at a time, as well as the snipe nerfs.
Solution: Make snipe do +20 damage (or +25 damage) vs. Massive.
This stops the abuse of using snipe vs every Zerg unit, while maintaining it's usefulness. I also propose that snipe keep its +25 damage vs. Psionic to keep it useful vs both HT and Infestors. (edit: and I guess other ghosts? Lol.)
Side Effects:
Pros:
- Increases skill cap of both Terran and Zerg
- Balances out late-game TvZ
- Promotes necessity of micro
- Gives Terran a good multipurpose spellcaster instead of highly delegated roles of straight counters
Cons:
- Balances out late-game ZvT
- May temporarily put balance of ZvT in Terran favor until slightly different end game compositions are standard. (eg. use of roaches, adrenal-gland lings, etc.)
Sky/Mech Terran deals with this just fine. Ghost Snipe should be 40/45/50 damage (25/30 vs Massive). Btw, this makes ZvT lategame on certain maps completely impossible. Any map that allows for split scenario wtih Pf/Tank and disallows Nydus/Drop play means autowin Terran.
Sky Terran really isn't very viable..
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On July 24 2012 13:44 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 13:35 dvorakftw wrote:On July 23 2012 03:57 RampancyTW wrote:
Proper economy management is what allows Zerg to be as powerful as it is right now. It took a longgg time of strategy development to get everything just right. And by strategy development we mean big maps with easy thirds and buffed Queens. Good thing Terrans are retarded enough to play 2base all-ins still.
you kinda have to unless you want the zerg to get 3 bases saturated at 11 mins. as long as you don't bring scvs and take a third behind it, it dosen't seem that allinsh to me.
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On July 25 2012 00:43 Lagcraft wrote:
Problem: Late game Zerg with infestor / brood lord with quick tech-switches to infestor - ultra makes it extraordinarily difficult for Terran to properly combat Zerg armies. Ghosts are rarely used anymore due to the EMP radius nerfs, making it hard to EMP more than 2-3 infestors at a time, as well as the snipe nerfs.
Solution: Make snipe do +20 damage (or +25 damage) vs. Massive.
This stops the abuse of using snipe vs every Zerg unit, while maintaining it's usefulness. I also propose that snipe keep its +25 damage vs. Psionic to keep it useful vs both HT and Infestors. (edit: and I guess other ghosts? Lol.)
Side Effects:
Pros:
- Increases skill cap of both Terran and Zerg
- Balances out late-game TvZ
- Promotes necessity of micro
- Gives Terran a good multipurpose spellcaster instead of highly delegated roles of straight counters
Cons:
- Balances out late-game ZvT
- May temporarily put balance of ZvT in Terran favor until slightly different end game compositions are standard. (eg. use of roaches, adrenal-gland lings, etc.)
Roaches get countered by nearly any unit supply for supply, which is why noone uses them in the lategame unless you need something cheap to reinforce with. And well, in TvZ range upgrades are basically useless to being with, so you will have 0/3 roaches against 3/3-bio+Tanks. Furthermore, Adrenalin gland lings are being used at ton, I don't know if we watch the same games, but I watch GSL and MLG and stuff like that... The thing with Adrenalin glands is that it is not the most crucial upgrade (though still a very good one). But glands on its own doesnt turn zerglings into supermega counters of ghosts. (again mass ghost wins supply for supply against lings; it's rather, that even with a strong snipe, your optimal endgame composition of zerg against ghoststyles would still rather have a broodlord than 8lings)
If you want to find ways to bring back Ghosts with a strong snipe in the lategame (the way you propose it), you need to find buffs to make roach or roach/hydra way more supplyefficient in the lategame for zerg, without completly overpowering midgame roach or roach/hydra compositions.
I don't know. I would keep snipe as it is, but rather:
- make roaches cost 100/25, give them an instantheal everytime they burrow of like 10 or 15HP (with Tunneling Claws only) and if it turns out that roaches would become too bad early on or in the midgame, give them a slight HP boost
- increase Hydralisk dps
- remove lair +1range upgrade for hydras
- add hive +2range upgrade for hydras and hive speed upgrade for hydras
- Broodlords to 6supply, maybe remove the second initial broodling; or maybe 5supply and a small dmg nerf,... just something along those lines
- some infestor nerfs, like projectile fungal, Infested Terran nerf, range reduction of IT spell, slow instead of root on fungal
what I'd like to achieve would be, that roach is less costefficient on it's own, roach/hydra becomes the "obvious" "costefficient" follow up to going roach or roach/ling in the early midgame, roach/hydra doesn't become more costefficient (no +1range on lair, less costefficient roaches), but can hold itself in the later stages of the game when "counters" are out, without needing a complete Broodlord/Infestorswitch - which are way better per supply right now - but only some Infestors to make fighting on your terms possible and burrow harass and some Broodlords to siege bunkering opponents - and make going mass broodlord only useful if the opponent commits a lot of supply into ground superiority units like tanks, immortals, colossi.
I mean, with even more robust roaches in per supply (less robust per cost, more control needed) and harder to catch glass canon hydralisks (faster, further away, doing more damage for the time they don't get attacked), the roach/hydra composition becomes less of an "you better trade that army away" composition. On the flip side, Zergs lategame units become less useful when massed up, so broodlords become more of an "build some to break a crucial position and then overrun him with a regular army"-role and less of an "as long as you build ground, I can build this"-unit.
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On July 25 2012 01:17 Lagcraft wrote:
Sky Terran really isn't very viable..
Yeah, it's too cost-ineffective. It requires you to outmacro your opponent to the point that any unit composition will do, or to prevent yourself from getting scouted or guessed. But even then, counters are horribly cost-effective and an opponent with good micro will have an easy time kiting. I'd expect skyterran to work only against unprepared players who don't know how to deal with it.
On July 25 2012 01:02 meadbert wrote:EDIT: Only 1 of top 5 Foreigners is Terran. Kas is the only one.
Strictly speaking, if you have 3 races and 5 players, at least one race will have only one player (you'd need to have 6 players to give 2 to each), so it's only the matter of which one rase became the odd one, possibly pretty random at that. If we had a 3/1/1 situation or 3/2/0 or something, that'd be telling.
But I agree with the overall idea that Terran is balanced for mechanically flawless multitasking Korean pros. XvT seems to be simpler than TvX. For the record, I don't agree Terran in squishy. I believe Terran is basically too unforgiving, too intense on APM/twitch/reaction/multitasking.
The game shouldn't be balanced for the top tournaments because millions of players paying for the game do not do so only to obtain enough basic familiarity with the game to understand what the caster is talking about when showcasing a pro match. Those millions of bronze to masters players (both bronze and masters losing any number of games to nil when playing against a proper professional player) are fans and customers and the balance of the game should reflect this. The way to achieve that being an equal learning curve and equal skill cap and skill requirement for all races.
On July 25 2012 01:07 Rokoz wrote:
The thing is that snipe nerf was done wrong, it was supposed to make snipe less useful against Ultra/BL tech, but what it did was that snipe became useless against Ultra/BL tech and it also has not been used ever in TvZ (or TvT) since the nerf.
Blizzard should have taken slower pace with reducing the damage. A good start would have been just try to nerf it down to 35 damage (+15 to light and psionic). If that felt still too strong they could have reduced it lower. Of course I would never expect that Blizzard would have reduced the damage twice, even if it meant better results.
Blizzard contradicted itself in pointing out a slight imbalance and reacting with a significant nerf in its own words (I can dig up that announcement if necessary but it was in the balance talks concerning that patch in which snipe got nerfed, on the official SC2 website). I made a thread about this but I didn't get a Blizzard answer when I was still following it. I don't want to repeat myself but Blizzard's attitude towards Terran seems left-handed. I guess it seemed the same to Toss or Zerg and some points in the past (removing upgrades entirely from the game etc.).
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Just came in here to say:
Holy crap, 1.5 and not even a "bunker build time reduced by 1s." Throw us a bone Blizzard. We've seen MC sneeze and get Protoss buffs, but not even a wild absence of top Terrans hints a positive change.
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I'm beyond caring about terran nerfs or buffs at this stage. If Blizzard doesn't start making the game interesting from a game design standpoint by increasing skill cap of all races and attempting to make all units have some sort of microability, the game is not going to remain interesting anymore.
And their future design decisions with the battle hellions, warhounds and tempests doesn't make things look bright at all.
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On July 25 2012 09:03 aksfjh wrote:
Just came in here to say:
Holy crap, 1.5 and not even a "bunker build time reduced by 1s." Throw us a bone Blizzard. We've seen MC sneeze and get Protoss buffs, but not even a wild absence of top Terrans hints a positive change.
At least they didn't nerf us any further.
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On July 25 2012 01:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 00:43 Lagcraft wrote:
Problem: Late game Zerg with infestor / brood lord with quick tech-switches to infestor - ultra makes it extraordinarily difficult for Terran to properly combat Zerg armies. Ghosts are rarely used anymore due to the EMP radius nerfs, making it hard to EMP more than 2-3 infestors at a time, as well as the snipe nerfs.
Solution: Make snipe do +20 damage (or +25 damage) vs. Massive.
This stops the abuse of using snipe vs every Zerg unit, while maintaining it's usefulness. I also propose that snipe keep its +25 damage vs. Psionic to keep it useful vs both HT and Infestors. (edit: and I guess other ghosts? Lol.)
Side Effects:
Pros:
- Increases skill cap of both Terran and Zerg
- Balances out late-game TvZ
- Promotes necessity of micro
- Gives Terran a good multipurpose spellcaster instead of highly delegated roles of straight counters
Cons:
- Balances out late-game ZvT
- May temporarily put balance of ZvT in Terran favor until slightly different end game compositions are standard. (eg. use of roaches, adrenal-gland lings, etc.)
Roaches get countered by nearly any unit supply for supply, which is why noone uses them in the lategame unless you need something cheap to reinforce with. And well, in TvZ range upgrades are basically useless to being with, so you will have 0/3 roaches against 3/3-bio+Tanks. Furthermore, Adrenalin gland lings are being used at ton, I don't know if we watch the same games, but I watch GSL and MLG and stuff like that... The thing with Adrenalin glands is that it is not the most crucial upgrade (though still a very good one). But glands on its own doesnt turn zerglings into supermega counters of ghosts. (again mass ghost wins supply for supply against lings; it's rather, that even with a strong snipe, your optimal endgame composition of zerg against ghoststyles would still rather have a broodlord than 8lings) If you want to find ways to bring back Ghosts with a strong snipe in the lategame (the way you propose it), you need to find buffs to make roach or roach/hydra way more supplyefficient in the lategame for zerg, without completly overpowering midgame roach or roach/hydra compositions. I don't know. I would keep snipe as it is, but rather: - make roaches cost 100/25, give them an instantheal everytime they burrow of like 10 or 15HP (with Tunneling Claws only) and if it turns out that roaches would become too bad early on or in the midgame, give them a slight HP boost - increase Hydralisk dps - remove lair +1range upgrade for hydras - add hive +2range upgrade for hydras and hive speed upgrade for hydras - Broodlords to 6supply, maybe remove the second initial broodling; or maybe 5supply and a small dmg nerf,... just something along those lines - some infestor nerfs, like projectile fungal, Infested Terran nerf, range reduction of IT spell, slow instead of root on fungal what I'd like to achieve would be, that roach is less costefficient on it's own, roach/hydra becomes the "obvious" "costefficient" follow up to going roach or roach/ling in the early midgame, roach/hydra doesn't become more costefficient (no +1range on lair, less costefficient roaches), but can hold itself in the later stages of the game when "counters" are out, without needing a complete Broodlord/Infestorswitch - which are way better per supply right now - but only some Infestors to make fighting on your terms possible and burrow harass and some Broodlords to siege bunkering opponents - and make going mass broodlord only useful if the opponent commits a lot of supply into ground superiority units like tanks, immortals, colossi. I mean, with even more robust roaches in per supply (less robust per cost, more control needed) and harder to catch glass canon hydralisks (faster, further away, doing more damage for the time they don't get attacked), the roach/hydra composition becomes less of an "you better trade that army away" composition. On the flip side, Zergs lategame units become less useful when massed up, so broodlords become more of an "build some to break a crucial position and then overrun him with a regular army"-role and less of an "as long as you build ground, I can build this"-unit.
Yeah, the other thing I was contemplating was changing the fungal to missile. I saw a good video on it but I can't find it now. It would make more sense that fungal could be dodgeable. Both storm and emp are dodgeable. That in itself could balance out the TvZ issue and increases the skill cap of both Zerg and Terran.
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On July 25 2012 00:55 Lagcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 00:50 Naphal wrote:On July 25 2012 00:43 Lagcraft wrote:
Problem: Late game Zerg with infestor / brood lord with quick tech-switches to infestor - ultra makes it extraordinarily difficult for Terran to properly combat Zerg armies. Ghosts are rarely used anymore due to the EMP radius nerfs, making it hard to EMP more than 2-3 infestors at a time, as well as the snipe nerfs.
Solution: Make snipe do +20 damage (or +25 damage) vs. Massive.
This stops the abuse of using snipe vs every Zerg unit, while maintaining it's usefulness. I also propose that snipe keep its +25 damage vs. Psionic to keep it useful vs both HT and Infestors. (edit: and I guess other ghosts? Lol.)
Side Effects:
Pros:
- Increases skill cap of both Terran and Zerg
- Balances out late-game TvZ
- Promotes necessity of micro
- Gives Terran a good multipurpose spellcaster instead of highly delegated roles of straight counters
Cons:
- Balances out late-game ZvT
- May temporarily put balance of ZvT in Terran favor until slightly different end game compositions are standard. (eg. use of roaches, adrenal-gland lings, etc.)
snipe was nerfed specifically because ghosts were too good vs broodlords and ultralisks ^.< sadly it cannot kill a baneling in its current state -.- Guess what the problem is right now in TvZ? Broodlords supported by infestors, into tech switches with 3/5 Ultralisks are too good vs any kind of army Terran can throw at it. You need to have marauders (useless vs. Broods) to counter Ultralisks and you need mass vikings (useless vs. Ultralisks) to counter brood / infestor / corrupter. I guess another option would to be reverse this buff and instead make it do +20 vs. all units except massive but I'm not sure how much that would help.
I gotta disagree, I don't think Broodlord/Infestor ever has, or currently is, that big of a problem whatsoever. Terran has a few large problems right now but I really don't see BL/Infestor as one of them.
Here is how I justify saying that: From what I've seen of good Terran players, if they are in decent standing in the late game and have any sort of edge on the Zerg BL/Infes doesn't seem too difficult to beat. Many, many times I've seen Terrans absolutely crush through BL/Infestor with just Bio/Medivac/Tank, just abuse the immobility of the Broodlord, spread their army out a bit and then bowl through it all with Tanks unsieged. Half the time Terrans can do this without even owning a single Viking. The problem is most Terrans have problems putting on proper pressure vs Queens still and in the late game, if things even slightly start going badly Terrans really do lack any way to quickly reinforce their army if they have no advantage.
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man if snipe nerf hadnt happened we would be seeing some boss preemptive baneling snipe while marine splitting
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On July 25 2012 12:49 BlindKill wrote:
man if snipe nerf hadnt happened we would be seeing some boss preemptive baneling snipe while marine splitting
Or we would just see Ghosts tearing apart every single Zerg unit above Tier 1 again.
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1.5 will have no balance changes.
Look for a patch beyond 1.5 to include any necessary balance changes, 1.5 is made for the new UI changes and won't contain anything game-play related.
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On July 25 2012 12:54 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 12:49 BlindKill wrote:
man if snipe nerf hadnt happened we would be seeing some boss preemptive baneling snipe while marine splitting Or we would just see Ghosts tearing apart every single Zerg unit above Tier 1 again.
Pretty much what infestors and templars have been doing in vT since a long time.
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On July 25 2012 13:07 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 12:54 BeeNu wrote:On July 25 2012 12:49 BlindKill wrote:
man if snipe nerf hadnt happened we would be seeing some boss preemptive baneling snipe while marine splitting Or we would just see Ghosts tearing apart every single Zerg unit above Tier 1 again. Pretty much what infestors and templars have been doing in vT since a long time.
I love when zergs try to use that arguement, and then they try to justify how insanely strong infestors are haha
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On July 25 2012 13:07 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 12:54 BeeNu wrote:On July 25 2012 12:49 BlindKill wrote:
man if snipe nerf hadnt happened we would be seeing some boss preemptive baneling snipe while marine splitting Or we would just see Ghosts tearing apart every single Zerg unit above Tier 1 again. Pretty much what infestors and templars have been doing in vT since a long time.
Those damn energy units. If only there was a unit that could take that energy away
Perhaps even take away the energy of a bunch of units in AOE form?
Nah, that'd be too imba. Oh well, one can dream.
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On July 25 2012 13:51 -TesteR- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 13:07 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On July 25 2012 12:54 BeeNu wrote:On July 25 2012 12:49 BlindKill wrote:
man if snipe nerf hadnt happened we would be seeing some boss preemptive baneling snipe while marine splitting Or we would just see Ghosts tearing apart every single Zerg unit above Tier 1 again. Pretty much what infestors and templars have been doing in vT since a long time. Those damn energy units. If only there was a unit that could take that energy away Perhaps even take away the energy of a bunch of units in AOE form? Nah, that'd be too imba. Oh well, one can dream.
This would be a valid arguement if infestors weren't fast, had a huge range for their spells and zerg players didnt keep them in the back of their insanely fast moving army.
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EPT
