Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 319

On July 25 2012 13:54 Talack wrote:


This would be a valid arguement if infestors weren't fast, had a huge range for their spells and zerg players didnt keep them in the back of their insanely fast moving army.

On July 25 2012 13:58 -TesteR- wrote:


I can't comment on zerg but he said protoss too. Templars are slower than hydras, in fact, they are slowest ground unit in the game apart from maybe off creep queen or infested terrans. Thoughts?

Yeah, the other thing I was contemplating was changing the fungal to missile. I saw a good video on it but I can't find it now. It would make more sense that fungal could be dodgeable. Both storm and emp are dodgeable. That in itself could balance out the TvZ issue and increases the skill cap of both Zerg and Terran.

On July 25 2012 14:06 Talack wrote:


They move at the same rate as almost every single terran unit so... :S

And who uses hydras in TvZ lol, the arguement is that ghosts hard-counter infestors but you can't bring up hydras in a TvZ arguement, tha'ts for a ZvP arguement.

As for the templars vs terran it's just an "is what it is" kind of thing, tvp can be decided with some emps where it's a one sided battle (not easy at all with a full archon/zealot/collosus/templar army vs a terran army of similar counter-composition, but that's for another discussion) and the entire game can be lost from a single storm taking out or weakening units enough.

On July 25 2012 13:51 -TesteR- wrote:


Those damn energy units. If only there was a unit that could take that energy away

Perhaps even take away the energy of a bunch of units in AOE form?

Nah, that'd be too imba. Oh well, one can dream.

On July 25 2012 14:11 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:


Those damn energy units. If only there was a unit that could take that energy away

Perhaps even convert the energy that was taken away into direct damage dealt to the target?

Nah, that'd be too imba. Oh well, one can dream.

On July 25 2012 13:45 Talack wrote:


I love when zergs try to use that arguement, and then they try to justify how insanely strong infestors are haha

On July 25 2012 14:07 Charon1979 wrote:


Thats an illusion. Storm is not dodgeable. Yes you can run out and prevent taking the full damage, but you will ALWAYS get damage. Further you are writing that from a terran POV, where you just run out of a storm and medivacs heal you up so that it seems no real damage was done (you can see how your marines are melting, even if you ran in an instant). Thats not the truth for Z. No matter how fast you move your Lings out, they will die in a maximum of 2 Storms. Additional Storm stays, even if you miss it, which is not true for fungal.
EMP is not dodgeable either. Yes technically it is a missile, but it travels fast and is nearly instant.

But i can understand why you liked the PTR fungal... the missile was so slow that fungal would be no more issue to any race.

On July 25 2012 09:08 Dalavita wrote:
I'm beyond caring about terran nerfs or buffs at this stage. If Blizzard doesn't start making the game interesting from a game design standpoint by increasing skill cap of all races and attempting to make all units have some sort of microability, the game is not going to remain interesting anymore.

And their future design decisions with the battle hellions, warhounds and tempests doesn't make things look bright at all.

On July 25 2012 14:29 Lagcraft wrote:



Lol. Ok. First off: storm is dodgeable with any kind of vaguely-fast moving unit, especially if you use your intuition to guess where the storm is going to hit. Yes, you still get hit. But, you can move out of the way from taking the full damage. And no, your zerglings don't die in 2 hits to storms no matter what. Lings are the fastest unit in the game. Stimmed marines (35 hp) without medivacs don't die in 2 hits to storms if you move them away properly.

With fungal, if you're hit, you're screwed. It's instacast. You have no time to react whatsoever to seeing an infestor unburrow or pop out of the Fog of War. Yes, you could say the same thing with EMP. But EMP doesn't kill units or immobilize them. Since it is a missile you can guess where it's going to hit and minimize the damage.

Sure you can split against fungal, but only preemptively. I am not talking about bringing in the PTR fungal. That's stupid. I'm talking about making it nearly as fast as EMP, if not just as fast. This would solve the problem in ZvZ where you can chain fungals are too useful against mutas. And it would increase the skill cap of both Zerg and Terran, like previously stated.

Honestly, it's hardly a nerf in the hands of a capable player. It makes it so that your units can be microed more to improve the usefulness of them. Isn't that what everyone who likes BW hates about SC2? That the units are too good at a-moving?

On July 25 2012 14:39 -TesteR- wrote:


The way you are characterizing storm and fungal seem incorrect. Storm is about as dodgeable as fungal, they are both instacast. The intuition of guessing where the storm can hit can also be applied to the fungal argument. Also, storm does 80 damage over 4 ticks, so non-combat shield marines and lings do in fact die from 2 ticks of storm. I do agree though that a slightly slower than emp projectile would be great to test out.

On July 25 2012 14:10 -TesteR- wrote:


Hydras are irrelevant to the discussion, it was just a reference I used to better show how slow templar are. You think templar move at the same rate as bio, which makes me think you are just a theory-crafter who doesn't play, much less understand this game, so I won't bother on asking for your thoughts this time.


+ Show Spoiler +

On July 25 2012 14:29 Lagcraft wrote:



Lol. Ok. First off: storm is dodgeable with any kind of vaguely-fast moving unit, especially if you use your intuition to guess where the storm is going to hit. Yes, you still get hit. But, you can move out of the way from taking the full damage. And no, your zerglings don't die in 2 hits to storms no matter what. Lings are the fastest unit in the game. Stimmed marines (35 hp) without medivacs don't die in 2 hits to storms if you move them away properly.

With fungal, if you're hit, you're screwed. It's instacast. You have no time to react whatsoever to seeing an infestor unburrow or pop out of the Fog of War. Yes, you could say the same thing with EMP. But EMP doesn't kill units or immobilize them. Since it is a missile you can guess where it's going to hit and minimize the damage.

Sure you can split against fungal, but only preemptively. I am not talking about bringing in the PTR fungal. That's stupid. I'm talking about making it nearly as fast as EMP, if not just as fast. This would solve the problem in ZvZ where you can chain fungals are too useful against mutas. And it would increase the skill cap of both Zerg and Terran, like previously stated.

Honestly, it's hardly a nerf in the hands of a capable player. It makes it so that your units can be microed more to improve the usefulness of them. Isn't that what everyone who likes BW hates about SC2? That the units are too good at a-moving?

On July 25 2012 14:18 -TesteR- wrote:


In case you didn't realize, the way you are parodying my quote makes no sense in this context. No protoss or zerg is crying that "one unit destroys my whole race"

Edit: Also, that imba unit you speak of does in fact exist, and protoss utilize that unit to its fullest extent, maybe that's why protoss is doing well. Maybe terran should do the same and use their imba unit.

On July 25 2012 13:58 -TesteR- wrote:


I can't comment on zerg but he said protoss too. Templars are slower than hydras, in fact, they are slowest ground unit in the game apart from maybe off creep queen or infested terrans. Thoughts?

Edit: Although I do agree Fungal range is too large. Not sure why storm and emp are 1.5 but fungal is still 2.

On July 25 2012 14:29 Lagcraft wrote:



Lol. Ok. First off: storm is dodgeable with any kind of vaguely-fast moving unit, especially if you use your intuition to guess where the storm is going to hit. Yes, you still get hit. But, you can move out of the way from taking the full damage. And no, your zerglings don't die in 2 hits to storms no matter what. Lings are the fastest unit in the game. Stimmed marines (35 hp) without medivacs don't die in 2 hits to storms if you move them away properly.

With fungal, if you're hit, you're screwed. It's instacast. You have no time to react whatsoever to seeing an infestor unburrow or pop out of the Fog of War. Yes, you could say the same thing with EMP. But EMP doesn't kill units or immobilize them. Since it is a missile you can guess where it's going to hit and minimize the damage.

Sure you can split against fungal, but only preemptively. I am not talking about bringing in the PTR fungal. That's stupid. I'm talking about making it nearly as fast as EMP, if not just as fast. This would solve the problem in ZvZ where you can chain fungals are too useful against mutas. And it would increase the skill cap of both Zerg and Terran, like previously stated.

Honestly, it's hardly a nerf in the hands of a capable player. It makes it so that your units can be microed more to improve the usefulness of them. Isn't that what everyone who likes BW hates about SC2? That the units are too good at a-moving?

On July 25 2012 17:55 Big J wrote:


Yeah, they nerfed EMP radius, when they made ghosts cheaper (it was intented to be a buff, and at the time it hit, it worked out like a buff - even if Terrans these days face problems spending their gas):
And they nerfed Storm way back in the beta days, which a beta is for.
And they nerfed Fungal overall damage, after they gave fungal good dps.

I don't see the point. All of those spells have been nerfed. Asking for a fungal radius nerf "because it's bigger than EMP/storm", makes no sense, even more so as out of the same arguement, zergs could ask for a storm damage nerf and an infestor cost buff, coming with a radius nerf.
Not asking for those things, but the argument why fungal should get nerfed just doesn't make sense. The argument why it should get nerfed should rather be, that it might be too good. A counterargument for this is, that zerg doesn't have any other high dps ranged and/or air attacking unit at the time you build infestors. It wouldn't be too much of a problem in matchups where you can use high dps melee units that profit a lot from the rooting, but you know, in 2/3 zerg MUs this isn't always an option.

Hydras are high DPS ranged AND air attacking units that can be deployed even quicker than infestors. If you use them on defense, they are even faster than the infestor and if you use them on the offense, they are JUST AS FAST as an infestor. So speed is clearly not the problem.