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On July 23 2012 16:53 Toastie.NL wrote:
^
What he tries to say is:
The fact that Terran was OP in the beggining of this game, is not a reason for Terran to be UP in this game now.
And 'no zerg' ever claimed this. We're telling terrans to shut up and play the game and wait for a balance patch to happen instead of crying and whining like 3 year old girls. Because you terrans told us zergs exactly the same when we were crying. And it only makes sense to say it because it's pointless to cry.
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On July 24 2012 00:09 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 16:53 Toastie.NL wrote:
^
What he tries to say is:
The fact that Terran was OP in the beggining of this game, is not a reason for Terran to be UP in this game now. And 'no zerg' ever claimed this. We're telling terrans to shut up and play the game and wait for a balance patch to happen instead of crying and whining like 3 year old girls. Because you terrans told us zergs exactly the same when we were crying. And it only makes sense to say it because it's pointless to cry.
Except Zergs never stopped crying until they got a bunch of various buffs, lol. Kinda weird double standard. You'd think Zergs of all players would understand the tears.
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On July 24 2012 00:09 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 16:53 Toastie.NL wrote:
^
What he tries to say is:
The fact that Terran was OP in the beggining of this game, is not a reason for Terran to be UP in this game now. And 'no zerg' ever claimed this. We're telling terrans to shut up and play the game and wait for a balance patch to happen instead of crying and whining like 3 year old girls. Because you terrans told us zergs exactly the same when we were crying. And it only makes sense to say it because it's pointless to cry.
And you got a patch buffing you, just after DRG won a GSL. :p
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On July 23 2012 23:58 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 23:32 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:05 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 22:56 Charon1979 wrote:they aren't required to do any significant micro compared with what Terran and Toss players need to do. They are. Its just not as visible or jaw dropping as terran micro. And in most cases not half as rewarding. To most players zerg micro looks like the AI at work. Yes, I am sure its not as demanding as Terran micro but on the other hand its not as rewarding either. Im all for "make zerg more microable", but I guess we would drown in a sea of ters then when 5 well microed roaches could beat 8 a-move stalkers. The thing is that your units function too well for how little micro goes into controlling them. I have no problem with the various Zerg compositions being as good as they are right now in the hands of a skilled micro player. It annoys me to see that basically any Masters player can make Infestor/BL work wonders whereas only the very best Terrans can work magic in the late game. I don't know what league you play, but I can tell you that those Master Terrans micro pretty hard and pretty well and you are going down whenever you 1a against them. Similar with Master Protoss players and their forcefields. If you 1a, you're done, because they always catch the right amount of units. Also it is a fact, that zerg players miss a ton of injects whenever something is going on. You know why? Because they have to concentrate on dealing with stuff and on getting their combats right. They can't just "1a" and do something else. Maybe in some gold or even platinum league, FFs and marinecontrol are as bad as you try to make people believe, but at Master level you need to control your stuff right, because your Protoss/Terran/Zerg opponent is going to control his stuff right more often than not. Ret is a pretty successful Zerg player, right? Well, he often just rallies his units in without so much as looking at them in ZvP. A lot of Zerg players do, actually, and it's really easy to see because once they engage, they have groups of Roaches hitting the Nexus and other random buildings instead of fighting the Protoss army, or even trying to kill probes. Ret even failed to kill a Nexus at like 200 hp in his game vs Puzzle @ NASL because he didn't look at his units even once. Then against Alicia he a-moved his army into a wall of forcefields and most of it died without killing anything. It happens very, very often with him, and he's supposed to be one of the best foreign Zerg players. I mean, this is the reason why Stephano is so successful while having average mechanics and using the same build every game. He actually does pay attention to his units and is always on top of simple micro techniques like target firing and pulling. To date, he is the only Zerg I ever saw pull back damaged Roaches when defending against a gateway all-in. Most Zerg players simply do not do this, and it's really easy to see in their games.
you mean like the oldest zerg trick (vs Terran), to put a few zerglings on the attackpath to kill reinforcements, because they are just rallied in.
You mean like anytime you see ranged units getting cleaned up and afterwards every building in the area being damaged. (especially visible after an MMM attack).
You mean like zealots chasing after queens, while the juicy drones mine as if there was no attack happening?
You mean like DTs that destroy a barracks, when all around them there are techlabs and reactors and scvs just waiting for their death?
You mean drops that prefer to kill a refinery, rather than go for workers?
Guess what, Ryung lost half his army against Stephano on Cloud Kingdom, because he messed up his unit control and left 3siege tanks too far behind that he brought for an attack.
As if those things wouldn't happen all the time in every MU for every player. (I could give you quite a lot of zerg examples as well. But I guess they are just as easy to find as those P/T fails) Yes, people mess up their control, attack stray buildings and donate crucial units (mostly mutalisks, drops and banshees) Shit happens. For every race.
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On July 24 2012 00:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 23:58 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 23:32 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:05 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 22:56 Charon1979 wrote:they aren't required to do any significant micro compared with what Terran and Toss players need to do. They are. Its just not as visible or jaw dropping as terran micro. And in most cases not half as rewarding. To most players zerg micro looks like the AI at work. Yes, I am sure its not as demanding as Terran micro but on the other hand its not as rewarding either. Im all for "make zerg more microable", but I guess we would drown in a sea of ters then when 5 well microed roaches could beat 8 a-move stalkers. The thing is that your units function too well for how little micro goes into controlling them. I have no problem with the various Zerg compositions being as good as they are right now in the hands of a skilled micro player. It annoys me to see that basically any Masters player can make Infestor/BL work wonders whereas only the very best Terrans can work magic in the late game. I don't know what league you play, but I can tell you that those Master Terrans micro pretty hard and pretty well and you are going down whenever you 1a against them. Similar with Master Protoss players and their forcefields. If you 1a, you're done, because they always catch the right amount of units. Also it is a fact, that zerg players miss a ton of injects whenever something is going on. You know why? Because they have to concentrate on dealing with stuff and on getting their combats right. They can't just "1a" and do something else. Maybe in some gold or even platinum league, FFs and marinecontrol are as bad as you try to make people believe, but at Master level you need to control your stuff right, because your Protoss/Terran/Zerg opponent is going to control his stuff right more often than not. Ret is a pretty successful Zerg player, right? Well, he often just rallies his units in without so much as looking at them in ZvP. A lot of Zerg players do, actually, and it's really easy to see because once they engage, they have groups of Roaches hitting the Nexus and other random buildings instead of fighting the Protoss army, or even trying to kill probes. Ret even failed to kill a Nexus at like 200 hp in his game vs Puzzle @ NASL because he didn't look at his units even once. Then against Alicia he a-moved his army into a wall of forcefields and most of it died without killing anything. It happens very, very often with him, and he's supposed to be one of the best foreign Zerg players. I mean, this is the reason why Stephano is so successful while having average mechanics and using the same build every game. He actually does pay attention to his units and is always on top of simple micro techniques like target firing and pulling. To date, he is the only Zerg I ever saw pull back damaged Roaches when defending against a gateway all-in. Most Zerg players simply do not do this, and it's really easy to see in their games. you mean like the oldest zerg trick (vs Terran), to put a few zerglings on the attackpath to kill reinforcements, because they are just rallied in. You mean like anytime you see ranged units getting cleaned up and afterwards every building in the area being damaged. (especially visible after an MMM attack). You mean like zealots chasing after queens, while the juicy drones mine as if there was no attack happening? You mean like DTs that destroy a barracks, when all around them there are techlabs and reactors and scvs just waiting for their death? You mean drops that prefer to kill a refinery, rather than go for workers? Guess what, Ryung lost half his army against Stephano on Cloud Kingdom, because he messed up his unit control and left 3siege tanks too far behind that he brought for an attack. As if those things wouldn't happen all the time in every MU for every player. (I could give you quite a lot of zerg examples as well. But I guess they are just as easy to find as those P/T fails) Yes, people mess up their control, attack stray buildings and donate crucial units (mostly mutalisks, drops and banshees) Shit happens. For every race.
Did you just compare multitasking harassment to Ret doing a frontal attack and not microing the only army he has?
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On July 24 2012 01:00 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 00:41 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:58 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 23:32 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:05 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 22:56 Charon1979 wrote:they aren't required to do any significant micro compared with what Terran and Toss players need to do. They are. Its just not as visible or jaw dropping as terran micro. And in most cases not half as rewarding. To most players zerg micro looks like the AI at work. Yes, I am sure its not as demanding as Terran micro but on the other hand its not as rewarding either. Im all for "make zerg more microable", but I guess we would drown in a sea of ters then when 5 well microed roaches could beat 8 a-move stalkers. The thing is that your units function too well for how little micro goes into controlling them. I have no problem with the various Zerg compositions being as good as they are right now in the hands of a skilled micro player. It annoys me to see that basically any Masters player can make Infestor/BL work wonders whereas only the very best Terrans can work magic in the late game. I don't know what league you play, but I can tell you that those Master Terrans micro pretty hard and pretty well and you are going down whenever you 1a against them. Similar with Master Protoss players and their forcefields. If you 1a, you're done, because they always catch the right amount of units. Also it is a fact, that zerg players miss a ton of injects whenever something is going on. You know why? Because they have to concentrate on dealing with stuff and on getting their combats right. They can't just "1a" and do something else. Maybe in some gold or even platinum league, FFs and marinecontrol are as bad as you try to make people believe, but at Master level you need to control your stuff right, because your Protoss/Terran/Zerg opponent is going to control his stuff right more often than not. Ret is a pretty successful Zerg player, right? Well, he often just rallies his units in without so much as looking at them in ZvP. A lot of Zerg players do, actually, and it's really easy to see because once they engage, they have groups of Roaches hitting the Nexus and other random buildings instead of fighting the Protoss army, or even trying to kill probes. Ret even failed to kill a Nexus at like 200 hp in his game vs Puzzle @ NASL because he didn't look at his units even once. Then against Alicia he a-moved his army into a wall of forcefields and most of it died without killing anything. It happens very, very often with him, and he's supposed to be one of the best foreign Zerg players. I mean, this is the reason why Stephano is so successful while having average mechanics and using the same build every game. He actually does pay attention to his units and is always on top of simple micro techniques like target firing and pulling. To date, he is the only Zerg I ever saw pull back damaged Roaches when defending against a gateway all-in. Most Zerg players simply do not do this, and it's really easy to see in their games. you mean like the oldest zerg trick (vs Terran), to put a few zerglings on the attackpath to kill reinforcements, because they are just rallied in. You mean like anytime you see ranged units getting cleaned up and afterwards every building in the area being damaged. (especially visible after an MMM attack). You mean like zealots chasing after queens, while the juicy drones mine as if there was no attack happening? You mean like DTs that destroy a barracks, when all around them there are techlabs and reactors and scvs just waiting for their death? You mean drops that prefer to kill a refinery, rather than go for workers? Guess what, Ryung lost half his army against Stephano on Cloud Kingdom, because he messed up his unit control and left 3siege tanks too far behind that he brought for an attack. As if those things wouldn't happen all the time in every MU for every player. (I could give you quite a lot of zerg examples as well. But I guess they are just as easy to find as those P/T fails) Yes, people mess up their control, attack stray buildings and donate crucial units (mostly mutalisks, drops and banshees) Shit happens. For every race. Did you just compare multitasking harassment to Ret doing a frontal attack and not microing the only army he has?
I haven't read that there was nothing else going on in the situation about Ret and how it was described, neither did I say that anything else was going on in any of my examples.
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On July 24 2012 01:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 01:00 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 00:41 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:58 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 23:32 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:05 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 22:56 Charon1979 wrote:they aren't required to do any significant micro compared with what Terran and Toss players need to do. They are. Its just not as visible or jaw dropping as terran micro. And in most cases not half as rewarding. To most players zerg micro looks like the AI at work. Yes, I am sure its not as demanding as Terran micro but on the other hand its not as rewarding either. Im all for "make zerg more microable", but I guess we would drown in a sea of ters then when 5 well microed roaches could beat 8 a-move stalkers. The thing is that your units function too well for how little micro goes into controlling them. I have no problem with the various Zerg compositions being as good as they are right now in the hands of a skilled micro player. It annoys me to see that basically any Masters player can make Infestor/BL work wonders whereas only the very best Terrans can work magic in the late game. I don't know what league you play, but I can tell you that those Master Terrans micro pretty hard and pretty well and you are going down whenever you 1a against them. Similar with Master Protoss players and their forcefields. If you 1a, you're done, because they always catch the right amount of units. Also it is a fact, that zerg players miss a ton of injects whenever something is going on. You know why? Because they have to concentrate on dealing with stuff and on getting their combats right. They can't just "1a" and do something else. Maybe in some gold or even platinum league, FFs and marinecontrol are as bad as you try to make people believe, but at Master level you need to control your stuff right, because your Protoss/Terran/Zerg opponent is going to control his stuff right more often than not. Ret is a pretty successful Zerg player, right? Well, he often just rallies his units in without so much as looking at them in ZvP. A lot of Zerg players do, actually, and it's really easy to see because once they engage, they have groups of Roaches hitting the Nexus and other random buildings instead of fighting the Protoss army, or even trying to kill probes. Ret even failed to kill a Nexus at like 200 hp in his game vs Puzzle @ NASL because he didn't look at his units even once. Then against Alicia he a-moved his army into a wall of forcefields and most of it died without killing anything. It happens very, very often with him, and he's supposed to be one of the best foreign Zerg players. I mean, this is the reason why Stephano is so successful while having average mechanics and using the same build every game. He actually does pay attention to his units and is always on top of simple micro techniques like target firing and pulling. To date, he is the only Zerg I ever saw pull back damaged Roaches when defending against a gateway all-in. Most Zerg players simply do not do this, and it's really easy to see in their games. you mean like the oldest zerg trick (vs Terran), to put a few zerglings on the attackpath to kill reinforcements, because they are just rallied in. You mean like anytime you see ranged units getting cleaned up and afterwards every building in the area being damaged. (especially visible after an MMM attack). You mean like zealots chasing after queens, while the juicy drones mine as if there was no attack happening? You mean like DTs that destroy a barracks, when all around them there are techlabs and reactors and scvs just waiting for their death? You mean drops that prefer to kill a refinery, rather than go for workers? Guess what, Ryung lost half his army against Stephano on Cloud Kingdom, because he messed up his unit control and left 3siege tanks too far behind that he brought for an attack. As if those things wouldn't happen all the time in every MU for every player. (I could give you quite a lot of zerg examples as well. But I guess they are just as easy to find as those P/T fails) Yes, people mess up their control, attack stray buildings and donate crucial units (mostly mutalisks, drops and banshees) Shit happens. For every race. Did you just compare multitasking harassment to Ret doing a frontal attack and not microing the only army he has? I haven't read that there was nothing else going on in the situation about Ret and how it was described, neither did I say that anything else was going on in any of my examples.
If a Terran is just sitting on his hands doing nothing, he's going to be microing his drops. Same with warp prisms, DTs, etc. Ret was committing with his main army with relatively little else going on in the game aside from the norm (injects etc). The behaviour of his units indicates that he a-clicked into the Protoss army, and the Roaches that weren't so close aggroed onto buildings.
I have no idea what's so challenging for Zerg that they can't box a group of units and tell it to join the fray, or in the case of Forcefields PULL BACK but it seems to happen an awful lot. There's absolutely nothing that could be happening that should mean you stop looking at your army for an entire battle. Even if there are two drops going on, the main battle still needs to be attended to.
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On July 24 2012 01:27 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 01:19 Big J wrote:On July 24 2012 01:00 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 00:41 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:58 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 23:32 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:05 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 22:56 Charon1979 wrote:they aren't required to do any significant micro compared with what Terran and Toss players need to do. They are. Its just not as visible or jaw dropping as terran micro. And in most cases not half as rewarding. To most players zerg micro looks like the AI at work. Yes, I am sure its not as demanding as Terran micro but on the other hand its not as rewarding either. Im all for "make zerg more microable", but I guess we would drown in a sea of ters then when 5 well microed roaches could beat 8 a-move stalkers. The thing is that your units function too well for how little micro goes into controlling them. I have no problem with the various Zerg compositions being as good as they are right now in the hands of a skilled micro player. It annoys me to see that basically any Masters player can make Infestor/BL work wonders whereas only the very best Terrans can work magic in the late game. I don't know what league you play, but I can tell you that those Master Terrans micro pretty hard and pretty well and you are going down whenever you 1a against them. Similar with Master Protoss players and their forcefields. If you 1a, you're done, because they always catch the right amount of units. Also it is a fact, that zerg players miss a ton of injects whenever something is going on. You know why? Because they have to concentrate on dealing with stuff and on getting their combats right. They can't just "1a" and do something else. Maybe in some gold or even platinum league, FFs and marinecontrol are as bad as you try to make people believe, but at Master level you need to control your stuff right, because your Protoss/Terran/Zerg opponent is going to control his stuff right more often than not. Ret is a pretty successful Zerg player, right? Well, he often just rallies his units in without so much as looking at them in ZvP. A lot of Zerg players do, actually, and it's really easy to see because once they engage, they have groups of Roaches hitting the Nexus and other random buildings instead of fighting the Protoss army, or even trying to kill probes. Ret even failed to kill a Nexus at like 200 hp in his game vs Puzzle @ NASL because he didn't look at his units even once. Then against Alicia he a-moved his army into a wall of forcefields and most of it died without killing anything. It happens very, very often with him, and he's supposed to be one of the best foreign Zerg players. I mean, this is the reason why Stephano is so successful while having average mechanics and using the same build every game. He actually does pay attention to his units and is always on top of simple micro techniques like target firing and pulling. To date, he is the only Zerg I ever saw pull back damaged Roaches when defending against a gateway all-in. Most Zerg players simply do not do this, and it's really easy to see in their games. you mean like the oldest zerg trick (vs Terran), to put a few zerglings on the attackpath to kill reinforcements, because they are just rallied in. You mean like anytime you see ranged units getting cleaned up and afterwards every building in the area being damaged. (especially visible after an MMM attack). You mean like zealots chasing after queens, while the juicy drones mine as if there was no attack happening? You mean like DTs that destroy a barracks, when all around them there are techlabs and reactors and scvs just waiting for their death? You mean drops that prefer to kill a refinery, rather than go for workers? Guess what, Ryung lost half his army against Stephano on Cloud Kingdom, because he messed up his unit control and left 3siege tanks too far behind that he brought for an attack. As if those things wouldn't happen all the time in every MU for every player. (I could give you quite a lot of zerg examples as well. But I guess they are just as easy to find as those P/T fails) Yes, people mess up their control, attack stray buildings and donate crucial units (mostly mutalisks, drops and banshees) Shit happens. For every race. Did you just compare multitasking harassment to Ret doing a frontal attack and not microing the only army he has? I haven't read that there was nothing else going on in the situation about Ret and how it was described, neither did I say that anything else was going on in any of my examples. If a Terran is just sitting on his hands doing nothing, he's going to be microing his drops. Same with warp prisms, DTs, etc. Ret was committing with his main army with relatively little else going on in the game aside from the norm (injects etc). The behaviour of his units indicates that he a-clicked into the Protoss army, and the Roaches that weren't so close aggroed onto buildings. I have no idea what's so challenging for Zerg that they can't box a group of units and tell it to join the fray, or in the case of Forcefields PULL BACK but it seems to happen an awful lot. There's absolutely nothing that could be happening that should mean you stop looking at your army for an entire battle. Even if there are two drops going on, the main battle still needs to be attended to.
And I have no idea what's so challenging in accepting that "bad players" are not magically attracted by one race. Maybe in Narnia all the bad guys are ugly, but in the real world people are not retarted just because they play one race in one videogame.
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On July 24 2012 01:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 01:27 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 01:19 Big J wrote:On July 24 2012 01:00 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 00:41 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:58 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 23:32 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:05 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 22:56 Charon1979 wrote:they aren't required to do any significant micro compared with what Terran and Toss players need to do. They are. Its just not as visible or jaw dropping as terran micro. And in most cases not half as rewarding. To most players zerg micro looks like the AI at work. Yes, I am sure its not as demanding as Terran micro but on the other hand its not as rewarding either. Im all for "make zerg more microable", but I guess we would drown in a sea of ters then when 5 well microed roaches could beat 8 a-move stalkers. The thing is that your units function too well for how little micro goes into controlling them. I have no problem with the various Zerg compositions being as good as they are right now in the hands of a skilled micro player. It annoys me to see that basically any Masters player can make Infestor/BL work wonders whereas only the very best Terrans can work magic in the late game. I don't know what league you play, but I can tell you that those Master Terrans micro pretty hard and pretty well and you are going down whenever you 1a against them. Similar with Master Protoss players and their forcefields. If you 1a, you're done, because they always catch the right amount of units. Also it is a fact, that zerg players miss a ton of injects whenever something is going on. You know why? Because they have to concentrate on dealing with stuff and on getting their combats right. They can't just "1a" and do something else. Maybe in some gold or even platinum league, FFs and marinecontrol are as bad as you try to make people believe, but at Master level you need to control your stuff right, because your Protoss/Terran/Zerg opponent is going to control his stuff right more often than not. Ret is a pretty successful Zerg player, right? Well, he often just rallies his units in without so much as looking at them in ZvP. A lot of Zerg players do, actually, and it's really easy to see because once they engage, they have groups of Roaches hitting the Nexus and other random buildings instead of fighting the Protoss army, or even trying to kill probes. Ret even failed to kill a Nexus at like 200 hp in his game vs Puzzle @ NASL because he didn't look at his units even once. Then against Alicia he a-moved his army into a wall of forcefields and most of it died without killing anything. It happens very, very often with him, and he's supposed to be one of the best foreign Zerg players. I mean, this is the reason why Stephano is so successful while having average mechanics and using the same build every game. He actually does pay attention to his units and is always on top of simple micro techniques like target firing and pulling. To date, he is the only Zerg I ever saw pull back damaged Roaches when defending against a gateway all-in. Most Zerg players simply do not do this, and it's really easy to see in their games. you mean like the oldest zerg trick (vs Terran), to put a few zerglings on the attackpath to kill reinforcements, because they are just rallied in. You mean like anytime you see ranged units getting cleaned up and afterwards every building in the area being damaged. (especially visible after an MMM attack). You mean like zealots chasing after queens, while the juicy drones mine as if there was no attack happening? You mean like DTs that destroy a barracks, when all around them there are techlabs and reactors and scvs just waiting for their death? You mean drops that prefer to kill a refinery, rather than go for workers? Guess what, Ryung lost half his army against Stephano on Cloud Kingdom, because he messed up his unit control and left 3siege tanks too far behind that he brought for an attack. As if those things wouldn't happen all the time in every MU for every player. (I could give you quite a lot of zerg examples as well. But I guess they are just as easy to find as those P/T fails) Yes, people mess up their control, attack stray buildings and donate crucial units (mostly mutalisks, drops and banshees) Shit happens. For every race. Did you just compare multitasking harassment to Ret doing a frontal attack and not microing the only army he has? I haven't read that there was nothing else going on in the situation about Ret and how it was described, neither did I say that anything else was going on in any of my examples. If a Terran is just sitting on his hands doing nothing, he's going to be microing his drops. Same with warp prisms, DTs, etc. Ret was committing with his main army with relatively little else going on in the game aside from the norm (injects etc). The behaviour of his units indicates that he a-clicked into the Protoss army, and the Roaches that weren't so close aggroed onto buildings. I have no idea what's so challenging for Zerg that they can't box a group of units and tell it to join the fray, or in the case of Forcefields PULL BACK but it seems to happen an awful lot. There's absolutely nothing that could be happening that should mean you stop looking at your army for an entire battle. Even if there are two drops going on, the main battle still needs to be attended to. And I have no idea what's so challenging in accepting that "bad players" are not magically attracted by one race. Maybe in Narnia all the bad guys are ugly, but in the real world people are not retarted just because they play one race in one videogame.
Just forget him. To him every zerg is all about a-move and horrendous micro while toss is (alongside terra) the race choosen by the best of the best, the most handsome, smartest and most skilled players out there while zerg is pretty easy and everybody rushes to GM with zerg. And to the ones who are not GM and Zerg, they are not because they just a-move. Always. In every game and situation. Every moment of army control is an illusion.
To make it short, only bad players play zerg and no zerg deserved a victory... ever!
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On July 24 2012 00:06 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 23:58 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 23:32 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:05 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 22:56 Charon1979 wrote:they aren't required to do any significant micro compared with what Terran and Toss players need to do. They are. Its just not as visible or jaw dropping as terran micro. And in most cases not half as rewarding. To most players zerg micro looks like the AI at work. Yes, I am sure its not as demanding as Terran micro but on the other hand its not as rewarding either. Im all for "make zerg more microable", but I guess we would drown in a sea of ters then when 5 well microed roaches could beat 8 a-move stalkers. The thing is that your units function too well for how little micro goes into controlling them. I have no problem with the various Zerg compositions being as good as they are right now in the hands of a skilled micro player. It annoys me to see that basically any Masters player can make Infestor/BL work wonders whereas only the very best Terrans can work magic in the late game. I don't know what league you play, but I can tell you that those Master Terrans micro pretty hard and pretty well and you are going down whenever you 1a against them. Similar with Master Protoss players and their forcefields. If you 1a, you're done, because they always catch the right amount of units. Also it is a fact, that zerg players miss a ton of injects whenever something is going on. You know why? Because they have to concentrate on dealing with stuff and on getting their combats right. They can't just "1a" and do something else. Maybe in some gold or even platinum league, FFs and marinecontrol are as bad as you try to make people believe, but at Master level you need to control your stuff right, because your Protoss/Terran/Zerg opponent is going to control his stuff right more often than not. Ret is a pretty successful Zerg player, right? Well, he often just rallies his units in without so much as looking at them in ZvP. A lot of Zerg players do, actually, and it's really easy to see because once they engage, they have groups of Roaches hitting the Nexus and other random buildings instead of fighting the Protoss army, or even trying to kill probes. Ret even failed to kill a Nexus at like 200 hp in his game vs Puzzle @ NASL because he didn't look at his units even once. Then against Alicia he a-moved his army into a wall of forcefields and most of it died without killing anything. It happens very, very often with him, and he's supposed to be one of the best foreign Zerg players. I mean, this is the reason why Stephano is so successful while having average mechanics and using the same build every game. He actually does pay attention to his units and is always on top of simple micro techniques like target firing and pulling. To date, he is the only Zerg I ever saw pull back damaged Roaches when defending against a gateway all-in. Most Zerg players simply do not do this, and it's really easy to see in their games. D to the RG just saying. It's not only stephano, the best Zergs have amazing micro.
Notice that the Zergs who thought they could just make tons of units and win are being phased out by a newer generation of Zergs with amazing Micro.
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I really noticed the difference when I started to split my banes / lings in an attack instead of have 5 Siege shells kill pretty much every baneling I had.
Zerg army's have a lot more potential!
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On July 24 2012 01:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 01:27 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 01:19 Big J wrote:On July 24 2012 01:00 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 00:41 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:58 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 23:32 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:05 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 22:56 Charon1979 wrote:they aren't required to do any significant micro compared with what Terran and Toss players need to do. They are. Its just not as visible or jaw dropping as terran micro. And in most cases not half as rewarding. To most players zerg micro looks like the AI at work. Yes, I am sure its not as demanding as Terran micro but on the other hand its not as rewarding either. Im all for "make zerg more microable", but I guess we would drown in a sea of ters then when 5 well microed roaches could beat 8 a-move stalkers. The thing is that your units function too well for how little micro goes into controlling them. I have no problem with the various Zerg compositions being as good as they are right now in the hands of a skilled micro player. It annoys me to see that basically any Masters player can make Infestor/BL work wonders whereas only the very best Terrans can work magic in the late game. I don't know what league you play, but I can tell you that those Master Terrans micro pretty hard and pretty well and you are going down whenever you 1a against them. Similar with Master Protoss players and their forcefields. If you 1a, you're done, because they always catch the right amount of units. Also it is a fact, that zerg players miss a ton of injects whenever something is going on. You know why? Because they have to concentrate on dealing with stuff and on getting their combats right. They can't just "1a" and do something else. Maybe in some gold or even platinum league, FFs and marinecontrol are as bad as you try to make people believe, but at Master level you need to control your stuff right, because your Protoss/Terran/Zerg opponent is going to control his stuff right more often than not. Ret is a pretty successful Zerg player, right? Well, he often just rallies his units in without so much as looking at them in ZvP. A lot of Zerg players do, actually, and it's really easy to see because once they engage, they have groups of Roaches hitting the Nexus and other random buildings instead of fighting the Protoss army, or even trying to kill probes. Ret even failed to kill a Nexus at like 200 hp in his game vs Puzzle @ NASL because he didn't look at his units even once. Then against Alicia he a-moved his army into a wall of forcefields and most of it died without killing anything. It happens very, very often with him, and he's supposed to be one of the best foreign Zerg players. I mean, this is the reason why Stephano is so successful while having average mechanics and using the same build every game. He actually does pay attention to his units and is always on top of simple micro techniques like target firing and pulling. To date, he is the only Zerg I ever saw pull back damaged Roaches when defending against a gateway all-in. Most Zerg players simply do not do this, and it's really easy to see in their games. you mean like the oldest zerg trick (vs Terran), to put a few zerglings on the attackpath to kill reinforcements, because they are just rallied in. You mean like anytime you see ranged units getting cleaned up and afterwards every building in the area being damaged. (especially visible after an MMM attack). You mean like zealots chasing after queens, while the juicy drones mine as if there was no attack happening? You mean like DTs that destroy a barracks, when all around them there are techlabs and reactors and scvs just waiting for their death? You mean drops that prefer to kill a refinery, rather than go for workers? Guess what, Ryung lost half his army against Stephano on Cloud Kingdom, because he messed up his unit control and left 3siege tanks too far behind that he brought for an attack. As if those things wouldn't happen all the time in every MU for every player. (I could give you quite a lot of zerg examples as well. But I guess they are just as easy to find as those P/T fails) Yes, people mess up their control, attack stray buildings and donate crucial units (mostly mutalisks, drops and banshees) Shit happens. For every race. Did you just compare multitasking harassment to Ret doing a frontal attack and not microing the only army he has? I haven't read that there was nothing else going on in the situation about Ret and how it was described, neither did I say that anything else was going on in any of my examples. If a Terran is just sitting on his hands doing nothing, he's going to be microing his drops. Same with warp prisms, DTs, etc. Ret was committing with his main army with relatively little else going on in the game aside from the norm (injects etc). The behaviour of his units indicates that he a-clicked into the Protoss army, and the Roaches that weren't so close aggroed onto buildings. I have no idea what's so challenging for Zerg that they can't box a group of units and tell it to join the fray, or in the case of Forcefields PULL BACK but it seems to happen an awful lot. There's absolutely nothing that could be happening that should mean you stop looking at your army for an entire battle. Even if there are two drops going on, the main battle still needs to be attended to. And I have no idea what's so challenging in accepting that "bad players" are not magically attracted by one race. Maybe in Narnia all the bad guys are ugly, but in the real world people are not retarted just because they play one race in one videogame.
For the record, I don't think Zergs are "bad players", just like I don't think Terran players were all bad in 2010. I do think Zerg is generally played with a mindset that optimizing one's macro is a lot more important than controlling units well. If you look at Terran play, they believe that controlling their units while pushing is more important than anything else at the time, because otherwise they can lose it really easily to Fungal or a bunch of Banelings rolling in. Similarly, you'll find that the best PvZ players are generally very sharp, in that they react to stuff happening to their army really fast, FF lings out in time even when not looking, and so forth - because you can literally lose instantly at several points in a typical PvZ if you don't pay attention even for a bit.
My point is, in the end, similar to Shiori's - the game simply does not punish Zerg players for being careless with their units nearly as much as it punishes Protoss or Terran players. I could give examples of this from recent tournaments all day, mistakes that spell instant loss for P/T but which Zergs just shrug off and continue playing while slightly behind (and sometimes not even that, as per the Taeja vs Losira game). There was a game at the MLG Spring Championship between SaSe and Stephano, where Stephano had 94 units lost against 6 of SaSe's in the midgame, but wasn't much behind at all, and later won by crushing SaSe's 3 base timing with relative ease.
Another way of expressing this sentiment is observing that Stephano would likely not see half the success he has if he had picked Protoss or Terran.
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On July 24 2012 02:47 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 01:54 Big J wrote:On July 24 2012 01:27 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 01:19 Big J wrote:On July 24 2012 01:00 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 00:41 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:58 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 23:32 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:05 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 22:56 Charon1979 wrote:
[quote]
They are. Its just not as visible or jaw dropping as terran micro. And in most cases not half as rewarding. To most players zerg micro looks like the AI at work. Yes, I am sure its not as demanding as Terran micro but on the other hand its not as rewarding either.
Im all for "make zerg more microable", but I guess we would drown in a sea of ters then when 5 well microed roaches could beat 8 a-move stalkers. The thing is that your units function too well for how little micro goes into controlling them. I have no problem with the various Zerg compositions being as good as they are right now in the hands of a skilled micro player. It annoys me to see that basically any Masters player can make Infestor/BL work wonders whereas only the very best Terrans can work magic in the late game. I don't know what league you play, but I can tell you that those Master Terrans micro pretty hard and pretty well and you are going down whenever you 1a against them. Similar with Master Protoss players and their forcefields. If you 1a, you're done, because they always catch the right amount of units. Also it is a fact, that zerg players miss a ton of injects whenever something is going on. You know why? Because they have to concentrate on dealing with stuff and on getting their combats right. They can't just "1a" and do something else. Maybe in some gold or even platinum league, FFs and marinecontrol are as bad as you try to make people believe, but at Master level you need to control your stuff right, because your Protoss/Terran/Zerg opponent is going to control his stuff right more often than not. Ret is a pretty successful Zerg player, right? Well, he often just rallies his units in without so much as looking at them in ZvP. A lot of Zerg players do, actually, and it's really easy to see because once they engage, they have groups of Roaches hitting the Nexus and other random buildings instead of fighting the Protoss army, or even trying to kill probes. Ret even failed to kill a Nexus at like 200 hp in his game vs Puzzle @ NASL because he didn't look at his units even once. Then against Alicia he a-moved his army into a wall of forcefields and most of it died without killing anything. It happens very, very often with him, and he's supposed to be one of the best foreign Zerg players. I mean, this is the reason why Stephano is so successful while having average mechanics and using the same build every game. He actually does pay attention to his units and is always on top of simple micro techniques like target firing and pulling. To date, he is the only Zerg I ever saw pull back damaged Roaches when defending against a gateway all-in. Most Zerg players simply do not do this, and it's really easy to see in their games. you mean like the oldest zerg trick (vs Terran), to put a few zerglings on the attackpath to kill reinforcements, because they are just rallied in. You mean like anytime you see ranged units getting cleaned up and afterwards every building in the area being damaged. (especially visible after an MMM attack). You mean like zealots chasing after queens, while the juicy drones mine as if there was no attack happening? You mean like DTs that destroy a barracks, when all around them there are techlabs and reactors and scvs just waiting for their death? You mean drops that prefer to kill a refinery, rather than go for workers? Guess what, Ryung lost half his army against Stephano on Cloud Kingdom, because he messed up his unit control and left 3siege tanks too far behind that he brought for an attack. As if those things wouldn't happen all the time in every MU for every player. (I could give you quite a lot of zerg examples as well. But I guess they are just as easy to find as those P/T fails) Yes, people mess up their control, attack stray buildings and donate crucial units (mostly mutalisks, drops and banshees) Shit happens. For every race. Did you just compare multitasking harassment to Ret doing a frontal attack and not microing the only army he has? I haven't read that there was nothing else going on in the situation about Ret and how it was described, neither did I say that anything else was going on in any of my examples. If a Terran is just sitting on his hands doing nothing, he's going to be microing his drops. Same with warp prisms, DTs, etc. Ret was committing with his main army with relatively little else going on in the game aside from the norm (injects etc). The behaviour of his units indicates that he a-clicked into the Protoss army, and the Roaches that weren't so close aggroed onto buildings. I have no idea what's so challenging for Zerg that they can't box a group of units and tell it to join the fray, or in the case of Forcefields PULL BACK but it seems to happen an awful lot. There's absolutely nothing that could be happening that should mean you stop looking at your army for an entire battle. Even if there are two drops going on, the main battle still needs to be attended to. And I have no idea what's so challenging in accepting that "bad players" are not magically attracted by one race. Maybe in Narnia all the bad guys are ugly, but in the real world people are not retarted just because they play one race in one videogame. For the record, I don't think Zergs are "bad players", just like I don't think Terran players were all bad in 2010. I do think Zerg is generally played with a mindset that optimizing one's macro is a lot more important than controlling units well. If you look at Terran play, they believe that controlling their units while pushing is more important than anything else at the time, because otherwise they can lose it really easily to Fungal or a bunch of Banelings rolling in. Similarly, you'll find that the best PvZ players are generally very sharp, in that they react to stuff happening to their army really fast, FF lings out in time even when not looking, and so forth - because you can literally lose instantly at several points in a typical PvZ if you don't pay attention even for a bit. My point is, in the end, similar to Shiori's - the game simply does not punish Zerg players for being careless with their units nearly as much as it punishes Protoss or Terran players. I could give examples of this from recent tournaments all day, mistakes that spell instant loss for P/T but which Zergs just shrug off and continue playing while slightly behind (and sometimes not even that, as per the Taeja vs Losira game). There was a game at the MLG Spring Championship between SaSe and Stephano, where Stephano had 94 units lost against 6 of SaSe's in the midgame, but wasn't much behind at all, and later won by crushing SaSe's 3 base timing with relative ease. Another way of expressing this sentiment is observing that Stephano would likely not see half the success he has if he had picked Protoss or Terran.
Thats a pretty loaded statement right there. You are saying that Zerg has the ability to make a player nearly twice as good. I think you are over simplifying things when it comes to Stephano. Losing 94 units is nothing if you have gotten the economy to be able to deal with those kind of losses. Also, Stephano crushing 3 three-base timing attack from a protoss is about the same as you and I waking up in the morning. It is literally what he does best.
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On July 23 2012 16:50 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 14:00 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:52 forsooth wrote:On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore. If your intention was to completely discredit yourself by posting stupid crap, you've succeeded. Congrats. Atleast tell me what part of my post was crap, unless your posts only reason was to discredit yourself by claiming that someone posted crap, because you dislike the facts that they posted. Okay, the point about hellions was a bit over-reacted. OK... why was the post crap. Because it shows that you don't want a balanced game, you want revenge for a perceived injustice. You seem to think that terran had to do nothing to collect freewins up until last patch and now it's Zergs turn to win no matter what they do. But I guess you are the kind of guy that fights for female domination over males, because there was a patriarchy in your country for many hundred years, so you want to even the scales by subjecting yourself to the rule of either your girl friend or your mother/sisters. While we are at it, lets have the native americans wipe out 80% of the non-native americans in the US (they have one genocide for free) and have the jews do the same with the germans... Glad your sense of balance and equality isn't prevalent.
Ok, why is your post crap.
Because I said that Zergs have been underpowered for the first year and a half of this game, still they didn't start quitting en mass. They whined, they whined a lot, but no quitting. Now, when Terran has been underpowered for SIX MONTHS you quys have whined the most out of the lifetime of this game, and are quitting. Maybe you don't know, but that looks fucking pathetic, way more pathetic than the Zerg whining they did a year ago.
I said nothing about it being OK for Terran to lose 60% against Zerg. What I said, was that it looks really fucking pathetic that you guys just give up when it has looked bad for six months. You know in your minds that the nerfs are coming, but still are quitting? Zergs didn't do that. We knew the future was going to be better, sometime, it had to be. And it was.
Also, you started stating some bullshit about women, jews, etc. What the fuck has this to do with the balance of Starcraft? Nothing. It's just your terrans retarded mind thinking "wow he has a mediocre point about us whining cant counter it, lets throw in fucking Jews!!"
Also, FYI, Terrans collected a lot of freewins in the first six months of this game, I don't fight for the women of my country, I wouldn't want americans to kill the original population, nor the Jews of germany kill Germans.
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On July 24 2012 03:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 02:47 Toadvine wrote:On July 24 2012 01:54 Big J wrote:On July 24 2012 01:27 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 01:19 Big J wrote:On July 24 2012 01:00 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 00:41 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:58 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 23:32 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:05 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
The thing is that your units function too well for how little micro goes into controlling them. I have no problem with the various Zerg compositions being as good as they are right now in the hands of a skilled micro player. It annoys me to see that basically any Masters player can make Infestor/BL work wonders whereas only the very best Terrans can work magic in the late game. I don't know what league you play, but I can tell you that those Master Terrans micro pretty hard and pretty well and you are going down whenever you 1a against them. Similar with Master Protoss players and their forcefields. If you 1a, you're done, because they always catch the right amount of units. Also it is a fact, that zerg players miss a ton of injects whenever something is going on. You know why? Because they have to concentrate on dealing with stuff and on getting their combats right. They can't just "1a" and do something else. Maybe in some gold or even platinum league, FFs and marinecontrol are as bad as you try to make people believe, but at Master level you need to control your stuff right, because your Protoss/Terran/Zerg opponent is going to control his stuff right more often than not. Ret is a pretty successful Zerg player, right? Well, he often just rallies his units in without so much as looking at them in ZvP. A lot of Zerg players do, actually, and it's really easy to see because once they engage, they have groups of Roaches hitting the Nexus and other random buildings instead of fighting the Protoss army, or even trying to kill probes. Ret even failed to kill a Nexus at like 200 hp in his game vs Puzzle @ NASL because he didn't look at his units even once. Then against Alicia he a-moved his army into a wall of forcefields and most of it died without killing anything. It happens very, very often with him, and he's supposed to be one of the best foreign Zerg players. I mean, this is the reason why Stephano is so successful while having average mechanics and using the same build every game. He actually does pay attention to his units and is always on top of simple micro techniques like target firing and pulling. To date, he is the only Zerg I ever saw pull back damaged Roaches when defending against a gateway all-in. Most Zerg players simply do not do this, and it's really easy to see in their games. you mean like the oldest zerg trick (vs Terran), to put a few zerglings on the attackpath to kill reinforcements, because they are just rallied in. You mean like anytime you see ranged units getting cleaned up and afterwards every building in the area being damaged. (especially visible after an MMM attack). You mean like zealots chasing after queens, while the juicy drones mine as if there was no attack happening? You mean like DTs that destroy a barracks, when all around them there are techlabs and reactors and scvs just waiting for their death? You mean drops that prefer to kill a refinery, rather than go for workers? Guess what, Ryung lost half his army against Stephano on Cloud Kingdom, because he messed up his unit control and left 3siege tanks too far behind that he brought for an attack. As if those things wouldn't happen all the time in every MU for every player. (I could give you quite a lot of zerg examples as well. But I guess they are just as easy to find as those P/T fails) Yes, people mess up their control, attack stray buildings and donate crucial units (mostly mutalisks, drops and banshees) Shit happens. For every race. Did you just compare multitasking harassment to Ret doing a frontal attack and not microing the only army he has? I haven't read that there was nothing else going on in the situation about Ret and how it was described, neither did I say that anything else was going on in any of my examples. If a Terran is just sitting on his hands doing nothing, he's going to be microing his drops. Same with warp prisms, DTs, etc. Ret was committing with his main army with relatively little else going on in the game aside from the norm (injects etc). The behaviour of his units indicates that he a-clicked into the Protoss army, and the Roaches that weren't so close aggroed onto buildings. I have no idea what's so challenging for Zerg that they can't box a group of units and tell it to join the fray, or in the case of Forcefields PULL BACK but it seems to happen an awful lot. There's absolutely nothing that could be happening that should mean you stop looking at your army for an entire battle. Even if there are two drops going on, the main battle still needs to be attended to. And I have no idea what's so challenging in accepting that "bad players" are not magically attracted by one race. Maybe in Narnia all the bad guys are ugly, but in the real world people are not retarted just because they play one race in one videogame. For the record, I don't think Zergs are "bad players", just like I don't think Terran players were all bad in 2010. I do think Zerg is generally played with a mindset that optimizing one's macro is a lot more important than controlling units well. If you look at Terran play, they believe that controlling their units while pushing is more important than anything else at the time, because otherwise they can lose it really easily to Fungal or a bunch of Banelings rolling in. Similarly, you'll find that the best PvZ players are generally very sharp, in that they react to stuff happening to their army really fast, FF lings out in time even when not looking, and so forth - because you can literally lose instantly at several points in a typical PvZ if you don't pay attention even for a bit. My point is, in the end, similar to Shiori's - the game simply does not punish Zerg players for being careless with their units nearly as much as it punishes Protoss or Terran players. I could give examples of this from recent tournaments all day, mistakes that spell instant loss for P/T but which Zergs just shrug off and continue playing while slightly behind (and sometimes not even that, as per the Taeja vs Losira game). There was a game at the MLG Spring Championship between SaSe and Stephano, where Stephano had 94 units lost against 6 of SaSe's in the midgame, but wasn't much behind at all, and later won by crushing SaSe's 3 base timing with relative ease. Another way of expressing this sentiment is observing that Stephano would likely not see half the success he has if he had picked Protoss or Terran. Thats a pretty loaded statement right there. You are saying that Zerg has the ability to make a player nearly twice as good. I think you are over simplifying things when it comes to Stephano. Losing 94 units is nothing if you have gotten the economy to be able to deal with those kind of losses. Also, Stephano crushing 3 three-base timing attack from a protoss is about the same as you and I waking up in the morning. It is literally what he does best.
I don't mean he only wins because of his race, that would be silly. I do think that Stephano is a uniquely tactical player, in the sense that he makes up for a lot of his deficiencies by being very clever about positioning his units. He wins tons and tons of games almost anyone else would've lost by flanking, counterattacking, getting surrounds on maxed armies, and so forth. You can see this inclination in his style too, he's very ling-heavy in every matchup, because their high mobility is what facilitates this kind of gameplay. And that's what I mean by saying he'd do a lot worse as Terran or Protoss - it's very hard to play like that as Terran, except in some very specific situations, and nearly impossible to do it as Protoss. Guess he knew which race to pick to suit his strengths.
And on a slightly different note, I've often heard the sentiment expressed by pro players (most recently by SaSe about Nerchio at HSC) that Zerg simply requires less practice in order to stay at the top. Stephano aside, Nestea and DRG supposedly don't practice all that much either. There has also never been a globally competitive Terran or Protoss foreigner without Korean training. I'm willing to eat my words if some insane P/T genius emerges from EU or NA and starts beating Koreans consistently, but I'm not holding my breath.
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On July 24 2012 02:05 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 01:54 Big J wrote:On July 24 2012 01:27 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 01:19 Big J wrote:On July 24 2012 01:00 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 00:41 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:58 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 23:32 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:05 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 22:56 Charon1979 wrote:
[quote]
They are. Its just not as visible or jaw dropping as terran micro. And in most cases not half as rewarding. To most players zerg micro looks like the AI at work. Yes, I am sure its not as demanding as Terran micro but on the other hand its not as rewarding either.
Im all for "make zerg more microable", but I guess we would drown in a sea of ters then when 5 well microed roaches could beat 8 a-move stalkers. The thing is that your units function too well for how little micro goes into controlling them. I have no problem with the various Zerg compositions being as good as they are right now in the hands of a skilled micro player. It annoys me to see that basically any Masters player can make Infestor/BL work wonders whereas only the very best Terrans can work magic in the late game. I don't know what league you play, but I can tell you that those Master Terrans micro pretty hard and pretty well and you are going down whenever you 1a against them. Similar with Master Protoss players and their forcefields. If you 1a, you're done, because they always catch the right amount of units. Also it is a fact, that zerg players miss a ton of injects whenever something is going on. You know why? Because they have to concentrate on dealing with stuff and on getting their combats right. They can't just "1a" and do something else. Maybe in some gold or even platinum league, FFs and marinecontrol are as bad as you try to make people believe, but at Master level you need to control your stuff right, because your Protoss/Terran/Zerg opponent is going to control his stuff right more often than not. Ret is a pretty successful Zerg player, right? Well, he often just rallies his units in without so much as looking at them in ZvP. A lot of Zerg players do, actually, and it's really easy to see because once they engage, they have groups of Roaches hitting the Nexus and other random buildings instead of fighting the Protoss army, or even trying to kill probes. Ret even failed to kill a Nexus at like 200 hp in his game vs Puzzle @ NASL because he didn't look at his units even once. Then against Alicia he a-moved his army into a wall of forcefields and most of it died without killing anything. It happens very, very often with him, and he's supposed to be one of the best foreign Zerg players. I mean, this is the reason why Stephano is so successful while having average mechanics and using the same build every game. He actually does pay attention to his units and is always on top of simple micro techniques like target firing and pulling. To date, he is the only Zerg I ever saw pull back damaged Roaches when defending against a gateway all-in. Most Zerg players simply do not do this, and it's really easy to see in their games. you mean like the oldest zerg trick (vs Terran), to put a few zerglings on the attackpath to kill reinforcements, because they are just rallied in. You mean like anytime you see ranged units getting cleaned up and afterwards every building in the area being damaged. (especially visible after an MMM attack). You mean like zealots chasing after queens, while the juicy drones mine as if there was no attack happening? You mean like DTs that destroy a barracks, when all around them there are techlabs and reactors and scvs just waiting for their death? You mean drops that prefer to kill a refinery, rather than go for workers? Guess what, Ryung lost half his army against Stephano on Cloud Kingdom, because he messed up his unit control and left 3siege tanks too far behind that he brought for an attack. As if those things wouldn't happen all the time in every MU for every player. (I could give you quite a lot of zerg examples as well. But I guess they are just as easy to find as those P/T fails) Yes, people mess up their control, attack stray buildings and donate crucial units (mostly mutalisks, drops and banshees) Shit happens. For every race. Did you just compare multitasking harassment to Ret doing a frontal attack and not microing the only army he has? I haven't read that there was nothing else going on in the situation about Ret and how it was described, neither did I say that anything else was going on in any of my examples. If a Terran is just sitting on his hands doing nothing, he's going to be microing his drops. Same with warp prisms, DTs, etc. Ret was committing with his main army with relatively little else going on in the game aside from the norm (injects etc). The behaviour of his units indicates that he a-clicked into the Protoss army, and the Roaches that weren't so close aggroed onto buildings. I have no idea what's so challenging for Zerg that they can't box a group of units and tell it to join the fray, or in the case of Forcefields PULL BACK but it seems to happen an awful lot. There's absolutely nothing that could be happening that should mean you stop looking at your army for an entire battle. Even if there are two drops going on, the main battle still needs to be attended to. And I have no idea what's so challenging in accepting that "bad players" are not magically attracted by one race. Maybe in Narnia all the bad guys are ugly, but in the real world people are not retarted just because they play one race in one videogame. Just forget him. To him every zerg is all about a-move and horrendous micro while toss is (alongside terra) the race choosen by the best of the best, the most handsome, smartest and most skilled players out there while zerg is pretty easy and everybody rushes to GM with zerg. And to the ones who are not GM and Zerg, they are not because they just a-move. Always. In every game and situation. Every moment of army control is an illusion. To make it short, only bad players play zerg and no zerg deserved a victory... ever!
Not true at all. I think there are a lot of good Zerg players, like DRG, Stephano, and Symbol. I just said that the required amount of micro to play Zerg at a high level is pretty low compared to the other races, which is pretty hard to dispute. Whereas Terran and Toss are balanced for the MKPs and MCs of the world, it feels like Zerg is being balanced for Masters players. I seriously doubt that DRG would have any trouble devoting a portion of his massive EAPM to microing Roaches if they became slightly weaker but had a higher micro ceiling.
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On July 24 2012 03:25 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 03:07 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2012 02:47 Toadvine wrote:On July 24 2012 01:54 Big J wrote:On July 24 2012 01:27 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 01:19 Big J wrote:On July 24 2012 01:00 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2012 00:41 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 23:58 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 23:32 Big J wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what league you play, but I can tell you that those Master Terrans micro pretty hard and pretty well and you are going down whenever you 1a against them. Similar with Master Protoss players and their forcefields. If you 1a, you're done, because they always catch the right amount of units.
Also it is a fact, that zerg players miss a ton of injects whenever something is going on. You know why? Because they have to concentrate on dealing with stuff and on getting their combats right. They can't just "1a" and do something else.
Maybe in some gold or even platinum league, FFs and marinecontrol are as bad as you try to make people believe, but at Master level you need to control your stuff right, because your Protoss/Terran/Zerg opponent is going to control his stuff right more often than not. Ret is a pretty successful Zerg player, right? Well, he often just rallies his units in without so much as looking at them in ZvP. A lot of Zerg players do, actually, and it's really easy to see because once they engage, they have groups of Roaches hitting the Nexus and other random buildings instead of fighting the Protoss army, or even trying to kill probes. Ret even failed to kill a Nexus at like 200 hp in his game vs Puzzle @ NASL because he didn't look at his units even once. Then against Alicia he a-moved his army into a wall of forcefields and most of it died without killing anything. It happens very, very often with him, and he's supposed to be one of the best foreign Zerg players. I mean, this is the reason why Stephano is so successful while having average mechanics and using the same build every game. He actually does pay attention to his units and is always on top of simple micro techniques like target firing and pulling. To date, he is the only Zerg I ever saw pull back damaged Roaches when defending against a gateway all-in. Most Zerg players simply do not do this, and it's really easy to see in their games. you mean like the oldest zerg trick (vs Terran), to put a few zerglings on the attackpath to kill reinforcements, because they are just rallied in. You mean like anytime you see ranged units getting cleaned up and afterwards every building in the area being damaged. (especially visible after an MMM attack). You mean like zealots chasing after queens, while the juicy drones mine as if there was no attack happening? You mean like DTs that destroy a barracks, when all around them there are techlabs and reactors and scvs just waiting for their death? You mean drops that prefer to kill a refinery, rather than go for workers? Guess what, Ryung lost half his army against Stephano on Cloud Kingdom, because he messed up his unit control and left 3siege tanks too far behind that he brought for an attack. As if those things wouldn't happen all the time in every MU for every player. (I could give you quite a lot of zerg examples as well. But I guess they are just as easy to find as those P/T fails) Yes, people mess up their control, attack stray buildings and donate crucial units (mostly mutalisks, drops and banshees) Shit happens. For every race. Did you just compare multitasking harassment to Ret doing a frontal attack and not microing the only army he has? I haven't read that there was nothing else going on in the situation about Ret and how it was described, neither did I say that anything else was going on in any of my examples. If a Terran is just sitting on his hands doing nothing, he's going to be microing his drops. Same with warp prisms, DTs, etc. Ret was committing with his main army with relatively little else going on in the game aside from the norm (injects etc). The behaviour of his units indicates that he a-clicked into the Protoss army, and the Roaches that weren't so close aggroed onto buildings. I have no idea what's so challenging for Zerg that they can't box a group of units and tell it to join the fray, or in the case of Forcefields PULL BACK but it seems to happen an awful lot. There's absolutely nothing that could be happening that should mean you stop looking at your army for an entire battle. Even if there are two drops going on, the main battle still needs to be attended to. And I have no idea what's so challenging in accepting that "bad players" are not magically attracted by one race. Maybe in Narnia all the bad guys are ugly, but in the real world people are not retarted just because they play one race in one videogame. For the record, I don't think Zergs are "bad players", just like I don't think Terran players were all bad in 2010. I do think Zerg is generally played with a mindset that optimizing one's macro is a lot more important than controlling units well. If you look at Terran play, they believe that controlling their units while pushing is more important than anything else at the time, because otherwise they can lose it really easily to Fungal or a bunch of Banelings rolling in. Similarly, you'll find that the best PvZ players are generally very sharp, in that they react to stuff happening to their army really fast, FF lings out in time even when not looking, and so forth - because you can literally lose instantly at several points in a typical PvZ if you don't pay attention even for a bit. My point is, in the end, similar to Shiori's - the game simply does not punish Zerg players for being careless with their units nearly as much as it punishes Protoss or Terran players. I could give examples of this from recent tournaments all day, mistakes that spell instant loss for P/T but which Zergs just shrug off and continue playing while slightly behind (and sometimes not even that, as per the Taeja vs Losira game). There was a game at the MLG Spring Championship between SaSe and Stephano, where Stephano had 94 units lost against 6 of SaSe's in the midgame, but wasn't much behind at all, and later won by crushing SaSe's 3 base timing with relative ease. Another way of expressing this sentiment is observing that Stephano would likely not see half the success he has if he had picked Protoss or Terran. Thats a pretty loaded statement right there. You are saying that Zerg has the ability to make a player nearly twice as good. I think you are over simplifying things when it comes to Stephano. Losing 94 units is nothing if you have gotten the economy to be able to deal with those kind of losses. Also, Stephano crushing 3 three-base timing attack from a protoss is about the same as you and I waking up in the morning. It is literally what he does best. I don't mean he only wins because of his race, that would be silly. I do think that Stephano is a uniquely tactical player, in the sense that he makes up for a lot of his deficiencies by being very clever about positioning his units. He wins tons and tons of games almost anyone else would've lost by flanking, counterattacking, getting surrounds on maxed armies, and so forth. You can see this inclination in his style too, he's very ling-heavy in every matchup, because their high mobility is what facilitates this kind of gameplay. And that's what I mean by saying he'd do a lot worse as Terran or Protoss - it's very hard to play like that as Terran, except in some very specific situations, and nearly impossible to do it as Protoss. Guess he knew which race to pick to suit his strengths. And on a slightly different note, I've often heard the sentiment expressed by pro players (most recently by SaSe about Nerchio at HSC) that Zerg simply requires less practice in order to stay at the top. Stephano aside, Nestea and DRG supposedly don't practice all that much either. There has also never been a globally competitive Terran or Protoss foreigner without Korean training. I'm willing to eat my words if some insane P/T genius emerges from EU or NA and starts beating Koreans consistently, but I'm not holding my breath.
So what you are saying is that Stephano is not that good of a player, but he has found a way to play zerg that is better than anyone else plays it? That sounds a damn lot like a very good player. Maybe we should call him "the 4th race". 
But I don't want to go too much into detail about stephano. I'm not a fanboy, though I do like him, but I think a bunch of facts simply point towards him having the most talent out of all the foreign players.
And well, those comments about less practice etc are really old and have been used over and over again. Idra was talking on some SotG that back in the days, Protoss players wouldn't train PvZ at all. All the TvP whine threads were filled with "just build double upgrades and turtle to a deathball doesn't require any mechanics" and more than one zerg has whined about "Terrans just need to split their units but don't need to have any solid gameplan, because marines can deal with everything" etc etc.
It's all just whining. After all, this game is played by proplayers who play for money and fame and they will try to maximize it, no matter which race they play.
Especially about DRG, I think Artosis has said that he practises a lot and is rather "overtrained" right now.
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Didn't Stephano said he has chosen Z, because he thought it requires fast reactions as did humans in WC3? It doesn't sound like playing T or P would make a problem because of reasons above mentioned.
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On August 16 2011 06:57 Techno wrote:+ Show Spoiler +UpdateSigh. I get it now. I get why TL Mods hate Balance Discussion. It brings about this mindset that will stagnate evolution of the game. We are the TL community. We are the harbringers of evolution in the foreign community. We need to embrace this and shun all views which dilute this mindset. Posts in this thread should be more thought about than offhand remarks about Terran muling to victory or overpopulating GSL. Thus Templates.Posting Templates:
Types of Posts:
Complaint
Problem:
Solution:
Side Effects:
eg) "Problem: Zerg needs to be able to scout better in the early game
Solution: Overseer at Hatchery Tech
Side Effects: Contaminate will see more use in ZvZ."
What Not To Do:
"Problem: Theres too many Terrans in GSL
Solution: Complain on the internet until Blizzard nerfs the shit
out of Mules and Marines
Side Effects: No one gives a shit about Starcraft anymore"
Metagame Observation:
Observation:
eg) "Observation: I feel like Protoss either win PvT with 2 base
Colossus or they lose."
What Not To Do:
"Observation: Terran Never Lose"
Metagame Evolution
Evolution:
eg) "Evolution: 1 Gate, Immortal Based openers with delayed tech and more emphasis
on gateway/immortal is the future of PvT."
What Not To Do:
"Evolution: Protoss can never expand against a Terran"
A Personal Plea From Techno To Protoss Players: Protoss Underpowered is the flavour of the past month or so. This is fueled by GSL caliber Protosses not occupying 1st place on the podium. Make no mistake, if MC won GSL Code S, no matter his playstyle, this theme would not be half as popular as it is with MC in code B. I say: "Fuck MC! Make your own Protoss!". We've seen Zerg evolve immensely in the time since release, the same is possible for Protoss. I'm not going to sit here and tell you how to play, but I am gonna tell you how to think; "Like a champion". What makes Starcraft awesome? Metagame changes. This "lull" in Protoss victories (at the highest of highest level), is merely an oppurtunity for the lesser known, younger, ballsier Protosses to come out of the shadows and wow everyone with new playstyles. Embrace your failures, my friends. Hey. I asked Chill about forming a specified thread for all the balance discussion to take place in. Original Message From Chill: Yea sure why not? Show nested quote +Original Message From Techno:
Hey.
I realise that Balance Discussion is often frowned upon on TL. I completely understand this rule.
However, as I'm sure you know, balance discussion is a tempting siren of discussion. Most threads devolve into or are just shrouded balance discussion.
Would TL ever consider a specified thread where players can actually discuss balance? This way the "chaos" will be penned into one thread. I think good rules for the thread would be strictly legitimate "Balance Discussion", and not "Balace Whining". Hyperboles and repetitive denial of racial viability would be frowned upon in this thread.
I think a good moderation technique would be to have mods & respected users (up to you how to determine) could essentially "+1 or -1" comments. Then players scores for either the thread or their total scores could be displayed.
Gl out on zee battlefield,
/salute my fellow Canadian
- Jason My thoughts as a macro focused Terran: - If you can build 14 drones at a time with injects, BFH seems about right.... Maybe we shouldnt "slow" terran any longer (slower BFH with the already nerfed 90 seconds (!) stim).... but Im scared of giving Zerg anything right now ... ;D - Protoss; without the 1/1/1 I see no reason for complaints against Terran. If you have problems with Protoss suggest thought out changes in this topic - What about cool down free manual chargelots? You couldnt auto charge the whole map, only things in range; but if you made a line of pylons/probes? you could chain charges between them. this would effectively exponentially increase the Protoss skill cap, and allow charge harassment, in and out of warp prisms... I'll start us off with a discussion topic: If it wasnt for the 1/1/1 all in, how would you guys feel about the balance of TvP?I feel like at the highest level, Terran hits every EMP and is always positioned well. Combine this with the ability to drop and I think it's a slightly Terran favoured matchup in GM league and in Korea Master League +. But at the same time I feel like in NA's mid/low master league and in Diamond especially, most Terrans cannot deal with even 2 base Colossus, let alone 3 base Colossus + HT, therefore I feel like at all but the highest (and perhaps lowest) levels, TvP is fairly strongly Protoss favoured in the current metagame. "You just engaged poorly" is a hard pill to swallow that Diamond/Low Master Terrans are often told when asking for help. I think the things I dislike about TvP is how quickly it ends and how little strategic positioning there is. There is typically 1 or 2 major engagements which end the game. Basically in the lategame the whole game is EMP. If the Terran has the right units, hits his EMP and micros against chargelots, he has a good chance of coming out on top. But if you miss the EMPs you lose the game, and it's a similar situation with Vikings. Though they are better than corrupters, you still want to have more resource value in Vikings than the Protoss has in Colossus, and they have seperate upgrades. All in all these things add up to "2 Gate robo expand -> colossus -> push and take a third -> Chargelot/Templar" being a super strong gameplan that isn't really imbalanced and doesnt warrant any Terran buffs, but I feel does make the matchup Protoss favoured in leagues where the Terrans simply dont have the speed to do all those great things Terran can do. What're your thoughts?
That's an interesting thought and I'd like to make it more general. Is it possible that not only Terran players face similar problems? If the game is balanced for tournaments or the very top of the ladder, where people can convincingly deliver 300 apm without spamming and rarely make mistakes, it may not be similarly balanced for lower ladder, more casual players etc. As a fellow Terran player I have the impression that while the pros can do awesome things with terran, in lower leagues of the ladder Terrans do indeed have it somewhat worse than a player of some other race due to not being able to use efficiently the arsenal they theoretically have at their disposal (some of which arsenal may be a counter to mechanically easier play, e.g. a-move with the right mix of units while you'd be required to have both a good mix and good micro, I think all of us, regardless of race and level of skill, know the feeling of disappointment that comes from losing to what is perceived as basically a-move, probably even in mirror matches too anyway). I also have the feeling that some situations are very harsh on the Terran, unforgiving, perhaps like what you described about missing the EMP (this kinda feels like Terran is forced to be reactive and those reactions are relatively hard to execute properly). Combined with Blizzard's attitude: nerfing Terran one by one even at the same time as recognising a problem with ladder performance of Terran players, silently withdrawing from that latter comment in their future statements, or that news announcement about the snipe nerf where the announcer said snipe as a counter (not even as an aggressive strat) was "slightly" too effective, so the response was to reduce its effectiveness "significantly" (within the same post), it does all make you (well, at least me) feel a little unwanted, punished, something of this kind, some kind of left-hand treatment, not even in terms of the substance but rather the process, the method of handling it. The community is different, I don't get this kind of feeling from TL or from Day9's comments or casted games, but I feel like the guys who own the game don't like me.
EDIT: I can't lay any claims to great understanding of the game. I've never made it past high gold and occasionally playing in plat. I'm generally the type of person who plays RTS-es a lot but just doesn't successfully learn to play well. But this impression of the high learning curve for Terrans is, in my opinion, confirmed in this thread with charts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351786
Especially notice early game, but even overall, it does look like top-skilled Terrans have it all right but newbies are screwed (in fact, the average across all leages doesn't look particularly great, so what about the lower side, as in, if we had bronze to gold charts on the left?). Additionally/incidentally, tthe average of all leagues TvP chart does point towards a small window of opportunity for less than best Terrans.
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On July 24 2012 04:08 Tuczniak wrote:
Didn't Stephano said he has chosen Z, because he thought it requires fast reactions as did humans in WC3? It doesn't sound like playing T or P would make a problem because of reasons above mentioned.
No idea. I'd say Stephano's style is basically entirely down to decision making and reaction. He has 1 build that's he really refined to a point where he can scout anything and knows which reaction to do. I think Stephano's unit control is pretty good (though no better than any Korean's) but it's not what wins him games. Stephano usually rolls over his opponent or gets totally smashed, because his reactions are basically designed to hard counter what he scouts his opponent doing. It's a very smart way to play the game, and I respect his skill for that. That said, it is a problem when 1 build can be adapted to deal with every single Protoss opener without so much as a stumble away from perfect efficiency. I think this is something that even Stephano has acknowledged/hinted at when he talks about ZvP being Zerg favoured or the matchup being easy. Of course, we shouldn't read into interview comments too much, but it definitely bears thinking about.
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EPT
