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On July 23 2012 13:22 Shasta37 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 13:17 Kenshi235 wrote:
Actions speak louder than words.
As a terran player since season 1, I have quit until they patch this game. Its no longer fun to watch OR play TvZ. I can't wait until esport RTS games are not just monopoly with Blizz (HoN/Dota don't count for me). Join the club.
Good thing all the Zergs gave up during the first 6 months of the game. OH WAIT!
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On July 23 2012 13:08 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 13:01 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 12:52 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 12:45 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs. Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical. If the mutalisk are moving, it isn't easy already, and mutas will always move away when they see infestors. It's as ridicilous to see 8 marines clean up a whole expansion with spines in lategame, and that requires the Zerg to make a mistake. The same thing with a flock of mutas, if all your mutas get caught by one fungal, its your fault. Fungal not hitting air, or a slow projectile would be a critical nerf making ZvZ be only mutalisk vs mutalisk, which is as critical as was the 4gate vs 4gate @PvP. 1. 8 marines cleaning up a whole expansion with spines? Do we watch the same game? 8 marines would be lucky to snipe a queen if they land at an expansion with spines. 2. If even this were possible, no it would be far less ridiculous. If you don't bother killing a drop it's your fault if you take damage, even heavy damage. Catching a flock of muta with a spell that isn't even projectile-based, which prevents them from moving, then simply fungaling them again and again until they die is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing in the game. 3. You act like you're supposed to catch muta. You do realize that neither Terran nor Protoss can effectively catch mutalisks right? The best they can do is chase them away. Why should Zerg be able to freeze them in place and kill them by repeat casting a spell that outranges those same muta? Muta are designed as a speedy harass unit, but not in ZvZ? 4. I don't think it would turn ZvZ into a muta vs muta fest, infestors would still be useful, and maybe this could be an interesting niche role for hydralisks. 1. No, we don't. Have you ever even played this game? 2. It is your fault for keeping all the mutalisk in flock when going to harass. If not harassing, it's your fault for not being aware of the danger of the infestor. 3. Yes, you're supposed to catch muta. You do realise that Zerg has neither the firepower, early access, and cheap price of the Terrans marine, or the early access, blink-able high-hp stalker? Infestor is the only effective anti-air of Zerg with which you can attack. Thats why chain-fungaling mutalisks is OK, and making Zerg not able to do it would break ZvZ. 4. Mutas destroy hydras because of their mobility compared to hydras. You can just be where the hydras are not, and do some damage with your mutas, and even minor damage in a mirror match-up might make you lose.
1. 8 marines will simply not destroy an entire expansion unless the Zerg player is totally and completely AFK, much less an expansion that has spines and a queen. In fact you should normally see the drop incoming before it even lands. Many Terrans will use such drop tactics to move Zerg's army, enabling them to more safely move an army through the middle of the map. In any case, noone really expects to snipe an entire expansion with 8 marines, and if there are spines and a queen I don't know if many Terrans would even choose to drop. 8 marines is the cost of a command center, you're not supposed to throw them away.
2. If a Zerg player flies his muta over marines by accident, he's certainly going to take damage, but he can quickly rectify this if he quickly moves his mutalisks. It's much more ridiculous that such a mistake will cost you your entire flock of muta for free with no way to rectify the situation against infestors.
3. I don't want to theorycraft about the role of hydra, and I'm not arguing that infestors shouldn't be able to hit air, nor even that fungal shouldn't freeze air units, I'm saying that for the power to freeze muta in place and chain fungal them to death a projectile-based attack is probably a reasonable tradeoff. My point was that I don't see this breaking ZvZ.
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On July 23 2012 13:25 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 13:22 Shasta37 wrote:On July 23 2012 13:17 Kenshi235 wrote:
Actions speak louder than words.
As a terran player since season 1, I have quit until they patch this game. Its no longer fun to watch OR play TvZ. I can't wait until esport RTS games are not just monopoly with Blizz (HoN/Dota don't count for me). Join the club. Good thing all the Zergs gave up during the first 6 months of the game. OH WAIT!
I mean, terrans have been getting pretty consistently nerfed since patch 1
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On July 23 2012 13:25 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 13:08 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:01 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 12:52 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 12:45 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs. Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical. If the mutalisk are moving, it isn't easy already, and mutas will always move away when they see infestors. It's as ridicilous to see 8 marines clean up a whole expansion with spines in lategame, and that requires the Zerg to make a mistake. The same thing with a flock of mutas, if all your mutas get caught by one fungal, its your fault. Fungal not hitting air, or a slow projectile would be a critical nerf making ZvZ be only mutalisk vs mutalisk, which is as critical as was the 4gate vs 4gate @PvP. 1. 8 marines cleaning up a whole expansion with spines? Do we watch the same game? 8 marines would be lucky to snipe a queen if they land at an expansion with spines. 2. If even this were possible, no it would be far less ridiculous. If you don't bother killing a drop it's your fault if you take damage, even heavy damage. Catching a flock of muta with a spell that isn't even projectile-based, which prevents them from moving, then simply fungaling them again and again until they die is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing in the game. 3. You act like you're supposed to catch muta. You do realize that neither Terran nor Protoss can effectively catch mutalisks right? The best they can do is chase them away. Why should Zerg be able to freeze them in place and kill them by repeat casting a spell that outranges those same muta? Muta are designed as a speedy harass unit, but not in ZvZ? 4. I don't think it would turn ZvZ into a muta vs muta fest, infestors would still be useful, and maybe this could be an interesting niche role for hydralisks. 1. No, we don't. Have you ever even played this game? 2. It is your fault for keeping all the mutalisk in flock when going to harass. If not harassing, it's your fault for not being aware of the danger of the infestor. 3. Yes, you're supposed to catch muta. You do realise that Zerg has neither the firepower, early access, and cheap price of the Terrans marine, or the early access, blink-able high-hp stalker? Infestor is the only effective anti-air of Zerg with which you can attack. Thats why chain-fungaling mutalisks is OK, and making Zerg not able to do it would break ZvZ. 4. Mutas destroy hydras because of their mobility compared to hydras. You can just be where the hydras are not, and do some damage with your mutas, and even minor damage in a mirror match-up might make you lose. 1. 8 marines will simply not destroy an entire expansion unless the Zerg player is totally and completely AFK, much less an expansion that has spines and a queen. In fact you should normally see the drop incoming before it even lands. Many Terrans will use such drop tactics to move Zerg's army, enabling them to more safely move an army through the middle of the map. In any case, noone really expects to snipe an entire expansion with 8 marines, and if there are spines and a queen I don't know if many Terrans would even choose to drop. 8 marines is the cost of a command center, you're not supposed to throw them away.
I wouldn't say completely AFK, rather that he has his attention divided. Doesn't have to be a drop either. No reason not to grab a small ball of marines with 2 medivacs and a-move them into a possible fringe zerg expo. Also 8 marines for a queen, hatch, splitting the zerg apart and/or free drones -- sounds like a good trade to me.
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On July 23 2012 13:25 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 13:08 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:01 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 12:52 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 12:45 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs. Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical. If the mutalisk are moving, it isn't easy already, and mutas will always move away when they see infestors. It's as ridicilous to see 8 marines clean up a whole expansion with spines in lategame, and that requires the Zerg to make a mistake. The same thing with a flock of mutas, if all your mutas get caught by one fungal, its your fault. Fungal not hitting air, or a slow projectile would be a critical nerf making ZvZ be only mutalisk vs mutalisk, which is as critical as was the 4gate vs 4gate @PvP. 1. 8 marines cleaning up a whole expansion with spines? Do we watch the same game? 8 marines would be lucky to snipe a queen if they land at an expansion with spines. 2. If even this were possible, no it would be far less ridiculous. If you don't bother killing a drop it's your fault if you take damage, even heavy damage. Catching a flock of muta with a spell that isn't even projectile-based, which prevents them from moving, then simply fungaling them again and again until they die is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing in the game. 3. You act like you're supposed to catch muta. You do realize that neither Terran nor Protoss can effectively catch mutalisks right? The best they can do is chase them away. Why should Zerg be able to freeze them in place and kill them by repeat casting a spell that outranges those same muta? Muta are designed as a speedy harass unit, but not in ZvZ? 4. I don't think it would turn ZvZ into a muta vs muta fest, infestors would still be useful, and maybe this could be an interesting niche role for hydralisks. 1. No, we don't. Have you ever even played this game? 2. It is your fault for keeping all the mutalisk in flock when going to harass. If not harassing, it's your fault for not being aware of the danger of the infestor. 3. Yes, you're supposed to catch muta. You do realise that Zerg has neither the firepower, early access, and cheap price of the Terrans marine, or the early access, blink-able high-hp stalker? Infestor is the only effective anti-air of Zerg with which you can attack. Thats why chain-fungaling mutalisks is OK, and making Zerg not able to do it would break ZvZ. 4. Mutas destroy hydras because of their mobility compared to hydras. You can just be where the hydras are not, and do some damage with your mutas, and even minor damage in a mirror match-up might make you lose. 1. 8 marines will simply not destroy an entire expansion unless the Zerg player is totally and completely AFK, much less an expansion that has spines and a queen. In fact you should normally see the drop incoming before it even lands. Many Terrans will use such drop tactics to move Zerg's army, enabling them to more safely move an army through the middle of the map. In any case, noone really expects to snipe an entire expansion with 8 marines, and if there are spines and a queen I don't know if many Terrans would even choose to drop. 8 marines is the cost of a command center, you're not supposed to throw them away. 2. If a Zerg player flies his muta over marines by accident, he's certainly going to take damage, but he can quickly rectify this if he quickly moves his mutalisks. It's much more ridiculous that such a mistake will cost you your entire flock of muta for free with no way to rectify the situation against infestors. 3. I don't want to theorycraft about the role of hydra, and I'm not arguing that infestors shouldn't be able to hit air, nor even that fungal shouldn't freeze air units, I'm saying that for the power to freeze muta in place and chain fungal them to death a projectile-based attack is probably a reasonable tradeoff. My point was that I don't see this breaking ZvZ.
1. 8 marines will destroy a spine in approx. 2 seconds. ~12 seconds for hatchery? (Talking about 3/3 marines). Zerg will need to have units waiting to not take damage, and have his army closeby to not lose the hatchery, if it's focusfired. If you waste 8 marines to kill a queen and couple of drones, its cost-effektive. Spines are horrible against marines.
2. If zerg flies over marines, he is going to lose the most, unless the marineball wasn't big. Same for infestors.
3. You dont see this breaking ZvZ because you have never played it. Mutas are a pain in the ass because we have only one possible unit against it, and you could easily be catched with your pants down. Hydras are just bad.
On July 23 2012 13:32 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 13:25 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:22 Shasta37 wrote:On July 23 2012 13:17 Kenshi235 wrote:
Actions speak louder than words.
As a terran player since season 1, I have quit until they patch this game. Its no longer fun to watch OR play TvZ. I can't wait until esport RTS games are not just monopoly with Blizz (HoN/Dota don't count for me). Join the club. Good thing all the Zergs gave up during the first 6 months of the game. OH WAIT! I mean, terrans have been getting pretty consistently nerfed since patch 1
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore.
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HOTS question, how will Protoss deal with broodlords, since Vortex will only affect ground, archon toilets against air units will no longer be possible. Tempests seem to be the intended solution, but from playing the latest HOTS custom map it doesn't seem even 3 Tempests (which cost 900 minerals and 900 gas) do enough DPS.
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On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore.
If your intention was to completely discredit yourself by posting stupid crap, you've succeeded. Congrats.
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On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore.
what? so it's cool to have imbalance to make up for previous imbalance?
lol and i wasn't even saying shit about balance, it's a psychological thing. it's a bit of a bitch to have to hear about a new patch and at best hope NOT to get nerfed. that's all
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On July 23 2012 13:52 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore. If your intention was to completely discredit yourself by posting stupid crap, you've succeeded. Congrats.
Atleast tell me what part of my post was crap, unless your posts only reason was to discredit yourself by claiming that someone posted crap, because you dislike the facts that they posted. Okay, the point about hellions was a bit over-reacted.
On July 23 2012 13:59 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore. what? so it's cool to have imbalance to make up for previous imbalance? lol and i wasn't even saying shit about balance, it's a psychological thing. it's a bit of a bitch to have to hear about a new patch and at best hope NOT to get nerfed. that's all
No, but it's cool to see Terrans just giving up and bitching instead of finding new ways to play (again?) at last.
You know, it's also a bitch to hear about a new patch, be glad that your race is finally getting good, and then see it turn out that it isn't. (For zergs the first 6 months was horrible, the next 6months was almost as bad.) I can understand the massive, massive, whining, but cant understand the mass-quitting.
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I've played terran since the release and recently i switch to zerg when i lose my temper because playing zvt is so easy its foolsih. I don't know any real builds or nothing and I win 90% playing zvt. And its one thing to say terran's complain, but seriously look at the patch notes, if the other two races got hit with the nerf bat like terran has there would be complaining too, the last and only buffs terran's have gotten were battlecrusiser speed (lawl) and changing the thor ability from energy to cooldown was a buff, but then it got undone.
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On July 23 2012 14:00 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 13:52 forsooth wrote:On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore. If your intention was to completely discredit yourself by posting stupid crap, you've succeeded. Congrats. Atleast tell me what part of my post was crap, unless your posts only reason was to discredit yourself by claiming that someone posted crap, because you dislike the facts that they posted.
4 hellions into freewin is a fact now is it?
Yeah, we're done here. Unless you have something actually useful to contribute.
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On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 13:25 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 13:08 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:01 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 12:52 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 12:45 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs. Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical. If the mutalisk are moving, it isn't easy already, and mutas will always move away when they see infestors. It's as ridicilous to see 8 marines clean up a whole expansion with spines in lategame, and that requires the Zerg to make a mistake. The same thing with a flock of mutas, if all your mutas get caught by one fungal, its your fault. Fungal not hitting air, or a slow projectile would be a critical nerf making ZvZ be only mutalisk vs mutalisk, which is as critical as was the 4gate vs 4gate @PvP. 1. 8 marines cleaning up a whole expansion with spines? Do we watch the same game? 8 marines would be lucky to snipe a queen if they land at an expansion with spines. 2. If even this were possible, no it would be far less ridiculous. If you don't bother killing a drop it's your fault if you take damage, even heavy damage. Catching a flock of muta with a spell that isn't even projectile-based, which prevents them from moving, then simply fungaling them again and again until they die is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing in the game. 3. You act like you're supposed to catch muta. You do realize that neither Terran nor Protoss can effectively catch mutalisks right? The best they can do is chase them away. Why should Zerg be able to freeze them in place and kill them by repeat casting a spell that outranges those same muta? Muta are designed as a speedy harass unit, but not in ZvZ? 4. I don't think it would turn ZvZ into a muta vs muta fest, infestors would still be useful, and maybe this could be an interesting niche role for hydralisks. 1. No, we don't. Have you ever even played this game? 2. It is your fault for keeping all the mutalisk in flock when going to harass. If not harassing, it's your fault for not being aware of the danger of the infestor. 3. Yes, you're supposed to catch muta. You do realise that Zerg has neither the firepower, early access, and cheap price of the Terrans marine, or the early access, blink-able high-hp stalker? Infestor is the only effective anti-air of Zerg with which you can attack. Thats why chain-fungaling mutalisks is OK, and making Zerg not able to do it would break ZvZ. 4. Mutas destroy hydras because of their mobility compared to hydras. You can just be where the hydras are not, and do some damage with your mutas, and even minor damage in a mirror match-up might make you lose. 1. 8 marines will simply not destroy an entire expansion unless the Zerg player is totally and completely AFK, much less an expansion that has spines and a queen. In fact you should normally see the drop incoming before it even lands. Many Terrans will use such drop tactics to move Zerg's army, enabling them to more safely move an army through the middle of the map. In any case, noone really expects to snipe an entire expansion with 8 marines, and if there are spines and a queen I don't know if many Terrans would even choose to drop. 8 marines is the cost of a command center, you're not supposed to throw them away. 2. If a Zerg player flies his muta over marines by accident, he's certainly going to take damage, but he can quickly rectify this if he quickly moves his mutalisks. It's much more ridiculous that such a mistake will cost you your entire flock of muta for free with no way to rectify the situation against infestors. 3. I don't want to theorycraft about the role of hydra, and I'm not arguing that infestors shouldn't be able to hit air, nor even that fungal shouldn't freeze air units, I'm saying that for the power to freeze muta in place and chain fungal them to death a projectile-based attack is probably a reasonable tradeoff. My point was that I don't see this breaking ZvZ. 1. 8 marines will destroy a spine in approx. 2 seconds. ~12 seconds for hatchery? (Talking about 3/3 marines). Zerg will need to have units waiting to not take damage, and have his army closeby to not lose the hatchery, if it's focusfired. If you waste 8 marines to kill a queen and couple of drones, its cost-effektive. Spines are horrible against marines. 2. If zerg flies over marines, he is going to lose the most, unless the marineball wasn't big. Same for infestors. 3. You dont see this breaking ZvZ because you have never played it. Mutas are a pain in the ass because we have only one possible unit against it, and you could easily be catched with your pants down. Hydras are just bad.
You're talking about 8 marines with a medivac btw. Sniping a hatch with an 8 marine drop is certainly possible, but it isn't all that common. An overlord normally spots the drop incoming. The medivac can just as easily be sniped as the hatch. And 8 marines die pretty quickly on the ground, even with one medivac. The point is you act like 8 marines just power through a queen, spines, and a hatch and there's very little the Zerg can do about it. Yes, 8 marines can kill a hatch, it's possible, but Zerg can also easily defend an 8 marine drop. Not sure why we're even discussing this tbh. And yeah, muta are a pain in the ass, any Terran or Protoss will tell you that, and often catch T and P with their pants down.
I'm not advocating the removal of infestors, I'm saying changing fungal to a missile-based attack isn't game breaking against muta. If it were, it should likely be very easy to explain, yet you haven't really done so. You've stated 1) if your muta get fungaled it's your fault, 2) fungal being projectile-based would turn ZvZ into muta vs muta, 3) infestors are Zerg's only anti air, and 4) it is thus reasonable to be able to chain fungal muta to death with total impunity. I just disagree with these statements. Fungal being projectile-based would still allow you to chain fungal muta to death, it would simply increase the skill ceiling of infestors, which I'm in favor of. You also have spore crawlers, queens, and hydralisks, (and mutalisks and corruptors). Zergs tell Terran to spend thousands of minerals on missile turrets, is there some reason spore crawlers in conjunction with queens is bad?
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On July 23 2012 14:04 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 14:00 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:52 forsooth wrote:On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore. If your intention was to completely discredit yourself by posting stupid crap, you've succeeded. Congrats. Atleast tell me what part of my post was crap, unless your posts only reason was to discredit yourself by claiming that someone posted crap, because you dislike the facts that they posted. 4 hellions into freewin is a fact now is it? Yeah, we're done here. Unless you have something actually useful to contribute.
4 hellions into a freewin was over-exaggerating from my part, but 4 hellions were bad for Zerg pre-patch. As many have stated before, it was too riskless vs reward. Zerg had to cut economy, or take a late 3rd, and not scout ever, making guesses about whats coming. It was like current TvZ.
On July 23 2012 14:05 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:25 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 13:08 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:01 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 12:52 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 12:45 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:
[quote]
You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs. Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical. If the mutalisk are moving, it isn't easy already, and mutas will always move away when they see infestors. It's as ridicilous to see 8 marines clean up a whole expansion with spines in lategame, and that requires the Zerg to make a mistake. The same thing with a flock of mutas, if all your mutas get caught by one fungal, its your fault. Fungal not hitting air, or a slow projectile would be a critical nerf making ZvZ be only mutalisk vs mutalisk, which is as critical as was the 4gate vs 4gate @PvP. 1. 8 marines cleaning up a whole expansion with spines? Do we watch the same game? 8 marines would be lucky to snipe a queen if they land at an expansion with spines. 2. If even this were possible, no it would be far less ridiculous. If you don't bother killing a drop it's your fault if you take damage, even heavy damage. Catching a flock of muta with a spell that isn't even projectile-based, which prevents them from moving, then simply fungaling them again and again until they die is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing in the game. 3. You act like you're supposed to catch muta. You do realize that neither Terran nor Protoss can effectively catch mutalisks right? The best they can do is chase them away. Why should Zerg be able to freeze them in place and kill them by repeat casting a spell that outranges those same muta? Muta are designed as a speedy harass unit, but not in ZvZ? 4. I don't think it would turn ZvZ into a muta vs muta fest, infestors would still be useful, and maybe this could be an interesting niche role for hydralisks. 1. No, we don't. Have you ever even played this game? 2. It is your fault for keeping all the mutalisk in flock when going to harass. If not harassing, it's your fault for not being aware of the danger of the infestor. 3. Yes, you're supposed to catch muta. You do realise that Zerg has neither the firepower, early access, and cheap price of the Terrans marine, or the early access, blink-able high-hp stalker? Infestor is the only effective anti-air of Zerg with which you can attack. Thats why chain-fungaling mutalisks is OK, and making Zerg not able to do it would break ZvZ. 4. Mutas destroy hydras because of their mobility compared to hydras. You can just be where the hydras are not, and do some damage with your mutas, and even minor damage in a mirror match-up might make you lose. 1. 8 marines will simply not destroy an entire expansion unless the Zerg player is totally and completely AFK, much less an expansion that has spines and a queen. In fact you should normally see the drop incoming before it even lands. Many Terrans will use such drop tactics to move Zerg's army, enabling them to more safely move an army through the middle of the map. In any case, noone really expects to snipe an entire expansion with 8 marines, and if there are spines and a queen I don't know if many Terrans would even choose to drop. 8 marines is the cost of a command center, you're not supposed to throw them away. 2. If a Zerg player flies his muta over marines by accident, he's certainly going to take damage, but he can quickly rectify this if he quickly moves his mutalisks. It's much more ridiculous that such a mistake will cost you your entire flock of muta for free with no way to rectify the situation against infestors. 3. I don't want to theorycraft about the role of hydra, and I'm not arguing that infestors shouldn't be able to hit air, nor even that fungal shouldn't freeze air units, I'm saying that for the power to freeze muta in place and chain fungal them to death a projectile-based attack is probably a reasonable tradeoff. My point was that I don't see this breaking ZvZ. 1. 8 marines will destroy a spine in approx. 2 seconds. ~12 seconds for hatchery? (Talking about 3/3 marines). Zerg will need to have units waiting to not take damage, and have his army closeby to not lose the hatchery, if it's focusfired. If you waste 8 marines to kill a queen and couple of drones, its cost-effektive. Spines are horrible against marines. 2. If zerg flies over marines, he is going to lose the most, unless the marineball wasn't big. Same for infestors. 3. You dont see this breaking ZvZ because you have never played it. Mutas are a pain in the ass because we have only one possible unit against it, and you could easily be catched with your pants down. Hydras are just bad. You're talking about 8 marines with a medivac btw. Sniping a hatch with an 8 marine drop is certainly possible, but it isn't all that common. An overlord normally spots the drop incoming. The medivac can just as easily be sniped as the hatch. And 8 marines die pretty quickly on the ground, even with one medivac. The point is you act like 8 marines just power through a queen, spines, and a hatch and there's very little the Zerg can do about it. Yes, 8 marines can kill a hatch, it's possible, but Zerg can also easily defend an 8 marine drop. Not sure why we're even discussing this tbh. And yeah, muta are a pain in the ass, any Terran or Protoss will tell you that, and often catch T and P with their pants down. I'm not advocating the removal of infestors, I'm saying changing fungal to a missile-based attack isn't game breaking against muta. If it were, it should likely be very easy to explain, yet you haven't really done so. You've stated 1) if your muta get fungaled it's your fault, 2) fungal being projectile-based would turn ZvZ into muta vs muta, 3) infestors are Zerg's only anti air, and 4) it is thus reasonable to be able to chain fungal muta to death with total impunity. I just disagree with these statements. Fungal being projectile-based would still allow you to chain fungal muta to death, it would simply increase the skill ceiling of infestors, which I'm in favor of. You also have spore crawlers, queens, and hydralisks, (and mutalisks and corruptors). Zergs tell Terran to spend thousands of minerals on missile turrets, is there some reason spore crawlers in conjunction with queens is bad?
I think I said that sniping a hatch isn't super-easy with medivacs, but it's possible. I know that overlords can spot medivacs, and I said that letting a marine-drop snipe a base requires a mistake from the Zerg. There should no problem here.
How exactly are Terrans caught with their pants down? I still play the old mutalingbling-style, and my Terrans NEVER have any turrets when my first wave of 10 mutalisks flies into their base. Still I usually can just kill a couple of scv's and supplydepots, not making game-ending damage. If that same would happen to Zerg on lair-tech, he would lose the game outright there. For Toss mutalisks are a little bit worse than Terran, but they usually at least scout the spire and prepare defences in time.
You said that changing fungal to projectile would not be game-chancing against mutas, otherwise I would have explained how it is, and right after that sentence, you give 4 points I made about projectile breaking ZvZ. Many terrans have said that HSM is too easy to dodge. The same would be with fungal also, unless the speed would be really fast (EMP speed if it isn't instant as someone said), which wouldn't change anything. Hydras are bad, queens are too slow offcreep, and muta/corruptor would make ZvZ muta vs muta.
Spore+queen is bad, because you cant attack with them, ever. You will see many Zergs doing spore queen vs mutalisk, but not at mass, because you can't attack with them. Thats why Terrans don't either usually make over 3/expansion turrets. Never seen tosses make mass cannon either.
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On July 23 2012 14:04 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 14:00 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:52 forsooth wrote:On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore. If your intention was to completely discredit yourself by posting stupid crap, you've succeeded. Congrats. Atleast tell me what part of my post was crap, unless your posts only reason was to discredit yourself by claiming that someone posted crap, because you dislike the facts that they posted. 4 hellions into freewin is a fact now is it? Yeah, we're done here. Unless you have something actually useful to contribute.
The irony you quoted him out of context when he's replying to a post that also contributes little. Good thing you responded to him as well, right? ...wait
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On July 23 2012 14:09 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 14:04 forsooth wrote:On July 23 2012 14:00 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:52 forsooth wrote:On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore. If your intention was to completely discredit yourself by posting stupid crap, you've succeeded. Congrats. Atleast tell me what part of my post was crap, unless your posts only reason was to discredit yourself by claiming that someone posted crap, because you dislike the facts that they posted. 4 hellions into freewin is a fact now is it? Yeah, we're done here. Unless you have something actually useful to contribute. 4 hellions into a freewin was a over-exaggerating from my part, but 4 hellions were bad for Zerg pre-patch. As many have stated before, it was too riskless vs reward. Zerg had to cut economy, or take a late 3rd, and not scout ever, making guesses about whats coming. It was like current TvZ. Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 14:05 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:25 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 13:08 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:01 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 12:52 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 12:45 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs. Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical. If the mutalisk are moving, it isn't easy already, and mutas will always move away when they see infestors. It's as ridicilous to see 8 marines clean up a whole expansion with spines in lategame, and that requires the Zerg to make a mistake. The same thing with a flock of mutas, if all your mutas get caught by one fungal, its your fault. Fungal not hitting air, or a slow projectile would be a critical nerf making ZvZ be only mutalisk vs mutalisk, which is as critical as was the 4gate vs 4gate @PvP. 1. 8 marines cleaning up a whole expansion with spines? Do we watch the same game? 8 marines would be lucky to snipe a queen if they land at an expansion with spines. 2. If even this were possible, no it would be far less ridiculous. If you don't bother killing a drop it's your fault if you take damage, even heavy damage. Catching a flock of muta with a spell that isn't even projectile-based, which prevents them from moving, then simply fungaling them again and again until they die is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing in the game. 3. You act like you're supposed to catch muta. You do realize that neither Terran nor Protoss can effectively catch mutalisks right? The best they can do is chase them away. Why should Zerg be able to freeze them in place and kill them by repeat casting a spell that outranges those same muta? Muta are designed as a speedy harass unit, but not in ZvZ? 4. I don't think it would turn ZvZ into a muta vs muta fest, infestors would still be useful, and maybe this could be an interesting niche role for hydralisks. 1. No, we don't. Have you ever even played this game? 2. It is your fault for keeping all the mutalisk in flock when going to harass. If not harassing, it's your fault for not being aware of the danger of the infestor. 3. Yes, you're supposed to catch muta. You do realise that Zerg has neither the firepower, early access, and cheap price of the Terrans marine, or the early access, blink-able high-hp stalker? Infestor is the only effective anti-air of Zerg with which you can attack. Thats why chain-fungaling mutalisks is OK, and making Zerg not able to do it would break ZvZ. 4. Mutas destroy hydras because of their mobility compared to hydras. You can just be where the hydras are not, and do some damage with your mutas, and even minor damage in a mirror match-up might make you lose. 1. 8 marines will simply not destroy an entire expansion unless the Zerg player is totally and completely AFK, much less an expansion that has spines and a queen. In fact you should normally see the drop incoming before it even lands. Many Terrans will use such drop tactics to move Zerg's army, enabling them to more safely move an army through the middle of the map. In any case, noone really expects to snipe an entire expansion with 8 marines, and if there are spines and a queen I don't know if many Terrans would even choose to drop. 8 marines is the cost of a command center, you're not supposed to throw them away. 2. If a Zerg player flies his muta over marines by accident, he's certainly going to take damage, but he can quickly rectify this if he quickly moves his mutalisks. It's much more ridiculous that such a mistake will cost you your entire flock of muta for free with no way to rectify the situation against infestors. 3. I don't want to theorycraft about the role of hydra, and I'm not arguing that infestors shouldn't be able to hit air, nor even that fungal shouldn't freeze air units, I'm saying that for the power to freeze muta in place and chain fungal them to death a projectile-based attack is probably a reasonable tradeoff. My point was that I don't see this breaking ZvZ. 1. 8 marines will destroy a spine in approx. 2 seconds. ~12 seconds for hatchery? (Talking about 3/3 marines). Zerg will need to have units waiting to not take damage, and have his army closeby to not lose the hatchery, if it's focusfired. If you waste 8 marines to kill a queen and couple of drones, its cost-effektive. Spines are horrible against marines. 2. If zerg flies over marines, he is going to lose the most, unless the marineball wasn't big. Same for infestors. 3. You dont see this breaking ZvZ because you have never played it. Mutas are a pain in the ass because we have only one possible unit against it, and you could easily be catched with your pants down. Hydras are just bad. --------- You're talking about 8 marines with a medivac btw. Sniping a hatch with an 8 marine drop is certainly possible, but it isn't all that common. An overlord normally spots the drop incoming. The medivac can just as easily be sniped as the hatch. And 8 marines die pretty quickly on the ground, even with one medivac. The point is you act like 8 marines just power through a queen, spines, and a hatch and there's very little the Zerg can do about it. Yes, 8 marines can kill a hatch, it's possible, but Zerg can also easily defend an 8 marine drop. Not sure why we're even discussing this tbh. And yeah, muta are a pain in the ass, any Terran or Protoss will tell you that, and often catch T and P with their pants down. I'm not advocating the removal of infestors, I'm saying changing fungal to a missile-based attack isn't game breaking against muta. If it were, it should likely be very easy to explain, yet you haven't really done so. You've stated 1) if your muta get fungaled it's your fault, 2) fungal being projectile-based would turn ZvZ into muta vs muta, 3) infestors are Zerg's only anti air, and 4) it is thus reasonable to be able to chain fungal muta to death with total impunity. I just disagree with these statements. Fungal being projectile-based would still allow you to chain fungal muta to death, it would simply increase the skill ceiling of infestors, which I'm in favor of. You also have spore crawlers, queens, and hydralisks, (and mutalisks and corruptors). Zergs tell Terran to spend thousands of minerals on missile turrets, is there some reason spore crawlers in conjunction with queens is bad? I think I said that sniping a hatch isn't super-easy with medivacs, but it's possible. I know that overlords can spot medivacs, and I said that letting a marine-drop snipe a base requires a mistake from the Zerg. There should no problem here. How exactly are Terrans caught with their pants down? I still play the old mutalingbling-style, and my Terrans NEVER have any turrets when my first wave of 10 mutalisks flies into their base. Still I usually can just kill a couple of scv's and supplydepots, not making game-ending damage. If that same would happen to Zerg on lair-tech, he would lose the game outright there. For Toss mutalisks are a little bit worse than Terran, but they usually at least scout the spire and prepare defences in time. You said that changing fungal to projectile would not be game-chancing against mutas, otherwise I would have explained how it is, and right after that sentence, you give 4 points I made about projectile breaking ZvZ. Many terrans have said that HSM is too easy to dodge. The same would be with fungal also, unless the speed would be really fast (EMP speed if it isn't instant as someone said), which wouldn't change anything. Hydras are bad, queens are too slow offcreep, and muta/corruptor would make ZvZ muta vs muta. Spore+queen is bad, because you cant attack with them, ever. You will see many Zergs doing spore queen vs mutalisk, but not at mass, because you can't attack with them. Thats why Terrans don't either usually make over 3/expansion turrets. Never seen tosses make mass cannon either.
What I'm saying is that you haven't explained those 4 points adequately. If your muta get fungaled it's your fault? Yes. Does that mean you should automatically lose them all? I would say no. Explain why that shouldn't be more difficult on the part of the infestor-based player. As Zerg players like to say, there is too much reward, and too little risk. Fungal being a projectile would turn ZvZ into muta vs muta is what we're arguing, but you haven't really explained why in my opinion. Infestors being Zerg's only anti air is objectively false. I don't think anyone would be in favor of making fungal the speed of HSM, it would be utterly useless. The spell needs to be practical, but increasing the skill cap of it would also be good. I just don't understand why they would all of a sudden become useless vs. muta (unless you made it HSM speed, nobody would do that), if you hit a couple fungals, you can potentially kill the whole flock. This is bad?
Spore+Queen is bad because you can't attack with it? By that reasoning missile turrets are bad since Terran can't attack with them. Naturally I realize you can't attack with spore+queen. But whatever you attack with you should still be able to fungal muta with a missile-based fungal since you're forcing muta to engage (in much the same way it works currently I'd imagine). Right now you can't go muta against infestors, it's suicide, and any unit should be reasonably viable in any matchup, it shouldn't just be total 100% crap.
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On July 23 2012 14:31 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 14:09 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 14:04 forsooth wrote:On July 23 2012 14:00 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:52 forsooth wrote:On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore. If your intention was to completely discredit yourself by posting stupid crap, you've succeeded. Congrats. Atleast tell me what part of my post was crap, unless your posts only reason was to discredit yourself by claiming that someone posted crap, because you dislike the facts that they posted. 4 hellions into freewin is a fact now is it? Yeah, we're done here. Unless you have something actually useful to contribute. 4 hellions into a freewin was a over-exaggerating from my part, but 4 hellions were bad for Zerg pre-patch. As many have stated before, it was too riskless vs reward. Zerg had to cut economy, or take a late 3rd, and not scout ever, making guesses about whats coming. It was like current TvZ. On July 23 2012 14:05 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:25 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 13:08 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:01 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 12:52 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 12:45 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:
[quote]
Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs.
Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical. If the mutalisk are moving, it isn't easy already, and mutas will always move away when they see infestors. It's as ridicilous to see 8 marines clean up a whole expansion with spines in lategame, and that requires the Zerg to make a mistake. The same thing with a flock of mutas, if all your mutas get caught by one fungal, its your fault. Fungal not hitting air, or a slow projectile would be a critical nerf making ZvZ be only mutalisk vs mutalisk, which is as critical as was the 4gate vs 4gate @PvP. 1. 8 marines cleaning up a whole expansion with spines? Do we watch the same game? 8 marines would be lucky to snipe a queen if they land at an expansion with spines. 2. If even this were possible, no it would be far less ridiculous. If you don't bother killing a drop it's your fault if you take damage, even heavy damage. Catching a flock of muta with a spell that isn't even projectile-based, which prevents them from moving, then simply fungaling them again and again until they die is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing in the game. 3. You act like you're supposed to catch muta. You do realize that neither Terran nor Protoss can effectively catch mutalisks right? The best they can do is chase them away. Why should Zerg be able to freeze them in place and kill them by repeat casting a spell that outranges those same muta? Muta are designed as a speedy harass unit, but not in ZvZ? 4. I don't think it would turn ZvZ into a muta vs muta fest, infestors would still be useful, and maybe this could be an interesting niche role for hydralisks. 1. No, we don't. Have you ever even played this game? 2. It is your fault for keeping all the mutalisk in flock when going to harass. If not harassing, it's your fault for not being aware of the danger of the infestor. 3. Yes, you're supposed to catch muta. You do realise that Zerg has neither the firepower, early access, and cheap price of the Terrans marine, or the early access, blink-able high-hp stalker? Infestor is the only effective anti-air of Zerg with which you can attack. Thats why chain-fungaling mutalisks is OK, and making Zerg not able to do it would break ZvZ. 4. Mutas destroy hydras because of their mobility compared to hydras. You can just be where the hydras are not, and do some damage with your mutas, and even minor damage in a mirror match-up might make you lose. 1. 8 marines will simply not destroy an entire expansion unless the Zerg player is totally and completely AFK, much less an expansion that has spines and a queen. In fact you should normally see the drop incoming before it even lands. Many Terrans will use such drop tactics to move Zerg's army, enabling them to more safely move an army through the middle of the map. In any case, noone really expects to snipe an entire expansion with 8 marines, and if there are spines and a queen I don't know if many Terrans would even choose to drop. 8 marines is the cost of a command center, you're not supposed to throw them away. 2. If a Zerg player flies his muta over marines by accident, he's certainly going to take damage, but he can quickly rectify this if he quickly moves his mutalisks. It's much more ridiculous that such a mistake will cost you your entire flock of muta for free with no way to rectify the situation against infestors. 3. I don't want to theorycraft about the role of hydra, and I'm not arguing that infestors shouldn't be able to hit air, nor even that fungal shouldn't freeze air units, I'm saying that for the power to freeze muta in place and chain fungal them to death a projectile-based attack is probably a reasonable tradeoff. My point was that I don't see this breaking ZvZ. 1. 8 marines will destroy a spine in approx. 2 seconds. ~12 seconds for hatchery? (Talking about 3/3 marines). Zerg will need to have units waiting to not take damage, and have his army closeby to not lose the hatchery, if it's focusfired. If you waste 8 marines to kill a queen and couple of drones, its cost-effektive. Spines are horrible against marines. 2. If zerg flies over marines, he is going to lose the most, unless the marineball wasn't big. Same for infestors. 3. You dont see this breaking ZvZ because you have never played it. Mutas are a pain in the ass because we have only one possible unit against it, and you could easily be catched with your pants down. Hydras are just bad. --------- You're talking about 8 marines with a medivac btw. Sniping a hatch with an 8 marine drop is certainly possible, but it isn't all that common. An overlord normally spots the drop incoming. The medivac can just as easily be sniped as the hatch. And 8 marines die pretty quickly on the ground, even with one medivac. The point is you act like 8 marines just power through a queen, spines, and a hatch and there's very little the Zerg can do about it. Yes, 8 marines can kill a hatch, it's possible, but Zerg can also easily defend an 8 marine drop. Not sure why we're even discussing this tbh. And yeah, muta are a pain in the ass, any Terran or Protoss will tell you that, and often catch T and P with their pants down. I'm not advocating the removal of infestors, I'm saying changing fungal to a missile-based attack isn't game breaking against muta. If it were, it should likely be very easy to explain, yet you haven't really done so. You've stated 1) if your muta get fungaled it's your fault, 2) fungal being projectile-based would turn ZvZ into muta vs muta, 3) infestors are Zerg's only anti air, and 4) it is thus reasonable to be able to chain fungal muta to death with total impunity. I just disagree with these statements. Fungal being projectile-based would still allow you to chain fungal muta to death, it would simply increase the skill ceiling of infestors, which I'm in favor of. You also have spore crawlers, queens, and hydralisks, (and mutalisks and corruptors). Zergs tell Terran to spend thousands of minerals on missile turrets, is there some reason spore crawlers in conjunction with queens is bad? I think I said that sniping a hatch isn't super-easy with medivacs, but it's possible. I know that overlords can spot medivacs, and I said that letting a marine-drop snipe a base requires a mistake from the Zerg. There should no problem here. How exactly are Terrans caught with their pants down? I still play the old mutalingbling-style, and my Terrans NEVER have any turrets when my first wave of 10 mutalisks flies into their base. Still I usually can just kill a couple of scv's and supplydepots, not making game-ending damage. If that same would happen to Zerg on lair-tech, he would lose the game outright there. For Toss mutalisks are a little bit worse than Terran, but they usually at least scout the spire and prepare defences in time. You said that changing fungal to projectile would not be game-chancing against mutas, otherwise I would have explained how it is, and right after that sentence, you give 4 points I made about projectile breaking ZvZ. Many terrans have said that HSM is too easy to dodge. The same would be with fungal also, unless the speed would be really fast (EMP speed if it isn't instant as someone said), which wouldn't change anything. Hydras are bad, queens are too slow offcreep, and muta/corruptor would make ZvZ muta vs muta. Spore+queen is bad, because you cant attack with them, ever. You will see many Zergs doing spore queen vs mutalisk, but not at mass, because you can't attack with them. Thats why Terrans don't either usually make over 3/expansion turrets. Never seen tosses make mass cannon either. What I'm saying is that you haven't explained those 4 points adequately. If your muta get fungaled it's your fault? Yes. Does that mean you should automatically lose them all? I would say no. Explain why that shouldn't be more difficult on the part of the infestor-based player. As Zerg players like to say, there is too much reward, and too little risk. Fungal being a projectile would turn ZvZ into muta vs muta is what we're arguing, but you haven't really explained why in my opinion. Infestors being Zerg's only anti air is objectively false. I don't think anyone would be in favor of making fungal the speed of HSM, it would be utterly useless. The spell needs to be practical, but increasing the skill cap of it would also be good. I just don't understand why they would all of a sudden become useless vs. muta (unless you made it HSM speed, nobody would do that), if you hit a couple fungals, you can potentially kill the whole flock. This is bad? Spore+Queen is bad? By that reasoning missile turrets are bad since Terran can't attack with them. Naturally I realize you can't attack with spore+queen. But whatever you attack with you should still be able to fungal muta with a missile-based fungal since you're forcing muta to engage (in much the same way it works currently I'd imagine). Right now you can't go muta against infestors, it's suicide, and any unit should be reasonable viable in any matchup, it shouldn't just be total 100% crap.
How would you make it so that when your mutas get fungaled you won't lose them all? If fungal would let them move, mutas would always go in, snipe critical tech, and run away with a few HP, regening in the corner of the map for some time, or maybe even queen/mutalisk to heal the mutas in this case. I think it shouldn't be harder for the infestor-player, because every unit has it's counters, for Zerg its mutalisk gets countered by infestor. It's a pretty hard counter, but it's good that it is, because it's also the only counter to mutalisk, unless you all-in. 2base mass roach also counters infestor, so it's the rock-paper-scissors of PvP.
Making fungal projectile be the speed that marines can dodge it would make it so that mutalisks can dodge it more easily, and I don't think we're arguing fungalprojectile + mutavsmuta just because of ZvZ and mutalisks being bad at the moment.
Couple of storms will also kill the whole mutalisk-flock, same with thor missile-attacks. The difference is that fungal roots, but makes less damage than thor/storm.
Spore+queen is bad in the sense you were talking about them, imo. (Only spore+queen) Every Zerg already makes spore+queen to defend the mutalisks, but usually they don't make so many, because mutalisk-player needs to be attacked soon if he took a third while cancelling yours. Thats also why mass spore+queen is bad in my opinion.
Mutalisks are viable in ZvZ, just not against infestor which is 70% of ZvZ. Also, nope, any unit shouldn't be viable in any matchup, if it would be that way, hydralisk would have been buffed already.
E: Also, about the bold, you can never know about blizzard. They have made many stupid decisions already.
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Right now you can't go muta against infestors, it's suicide, and any unit should be reasonably viable in any matchup, it shouldn't just be total 100% crap.
Sure you can. The main difference is you cant go MASS Muta. But doing 10 - 15 to deny a 3rd, kill stray overlords, snipe queens (which is pretty easy und screws your opponent up massively), harrass gas, snipe a few units if they move out,... is not problem at all and can be very rewarding (as you are on 3 bases and transistion into 3 Base Roach or Roach/Infestor yourself).
Even if they get chainfungaled, its not that big of a loss as you should be ahead in bases by now and he has most likely no more fungals left to worry about if you engage with your army.
Going Mutas is still viable in ZvZ and quite a lot of Zerg do it. MASS Muta is not viable (unless your initial 10 Mutas did so much damage which means your opponent screwed up massively) as you cant afford to lose 30 Mutas even on 3 bases.
That said I also enjoy the Queen buff in ZvZ as it turned the MU away from "look, I got one better baneling hit so I win"
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On July 23 2012 14:48 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 14:31 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 14:09 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 14:04 forsooth wrote:On July 23 2012 14:00 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:52 forsooth wrote:On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore. If your intention was to completely discredit yourself by posting stupid crap, you've succeeded. Congrats. Atleast tell me what part of my post was crap, unless your posts only reason was to discredit yourself by claiming that someone posted crap, because you dislike the facts that they posted. 4 hellions into freewin is a fact now is it? Yeah, we're done here. Unless you have something actually useful to contribute. 4 hellions into a freewin was a over-exaggerating from my part, but 4 hellions were bad for Zerg pre-patch. As many have stated before, it was too riskless vs reward. Zerg had to cut economy, or take a late 3rd, and not scout ever, making guesses about whats coming. It was like current TvZ. On July 23 2012 14:05 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:25 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 13:08 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 13:01 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 12:52 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 12:45 sevencck wrote:
[quote]
Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical. If the mutalisk are moving, it isn't easy already, and mutas will always move away when they see infestors. It's as ridicilous to see 8 marines clean up a whole expansion with spines in lategame, and that requires the Zerg to make a mistake. The same thing with a flock of mutas, if all your mutas get caught by one fungal, its your fault. Fungal not hitting air, or a slow projectile would be a critical nerf making ZvZ be only mutalisk vs mutalisk, which is as critical as was the 4gate vs 4gate @PvP. 1. 8 marines cleaning up a whole expansion with spines? Do we watch the same game? 8 marines would be lucky to snipe a queen if they land at an expansion with spines. 2. If even this were possible, no it would be far less ridiculous. If you don't bother killing a drop it's your fault if you take damage, even heavy damage. Catching a flock of muta with a spell that isn't even projectile-based, which prevents them from moving, then simply fungaling them again and again until they die is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing in the game. 3. You act like you're supposed to catch muta. You do realize that neither Terran nor Protoss can effectively catch mutalisks right? The best they can do is chase them away. Why should Zerg be able to freeze them in place and kill them by repeat casting a spell that outranges those same muta? Muta are designed as a speedy harass unit, but not in ZvZ? 4. I don't think it would turn ZvZ into a muta vs muta fest, infestors would still be useful, and maybe this could be an interesting niche role for hydralisks. 1. No, we don't. Have you ever even played this game? 2. It is your fault for keeping all the mutalisk in flock when going to harass. If not harassing, it's your fault for not being aware of the danger of the infestor. 3. Yes, you're supposed to catch muta. You do realise that Zerg has neither the firepower, early access, and cheap price of the Terrans marine, or the early access, blink-able high-hp stalker? Infestor is the only effective anti-air of Zerg with which you can attack. Thats why chain-fungaling mutalisks is OK, and making Zerg not able to do it would break ZvZ. 4. Mutas destroy hydras because of their mobility compared to hydras. You can just be where the hydras are not, and do some damage with your mutas, and even minor damage in a mirror match-up might make you lose. 1. 8 marines will simply not destroy an entire expansion unless the Zerg player is totally and completely AFK, much less an expansion that has spines and a queen. In fact you should normally see the drop incoming before it even lands. Many Terrans will use such drop tactics to move Zerg's army, enabling them to more safely move an army through the middle of the map. In any case, noone really expects to snipe an entire expansion with 8 marines, and if there are spines and a queen I don't know if many Terrans would even choose to drop. 8 marines is the cost of a command center, you're not supposed to throw them away. 2. If a Zerg player flies his muta over marines by accident, he's certainly going to take damage, but he can quickly rectify this if he quickly moves his mutalisks. It's much more ridiculous that such a mistake will cost you your entire flock of muta for free with no way to rectify the situation against infestors. 3. I don't want to theorycraft about the role of hydra, and I'm not arguing that infestors shouldn't be able to hit air, nor even that fungal shouldn't freeze air units, I'm saying that for the power to freeze muta in place and chain fungal them to death a projectile-based attack is probably a reasonable tradeoff. My point was that I don't see this breaking ZvZ. 1. 8 marines will destroy a spine in approx. 2 seconds. ~12 seconds for hatchery? (Talking about 3/3 marines). Zerg will need to have units waiting to not take damage, and have his army closeby to not lose the hatchery, if it's focusfired. If you waste 8 marines to kill a queen and couple of drones, its cost-effektive. Spines are horrible against marines. 2. If zerg flies over marines, he is going to lose the most, unless the marineball wasn't big. Same for infestors. 3. You dont see this breaking ZvZ because you have never played it. Mutas are a pain in the ass because we have only one possible unit against it, and you could easily be catched with your pants down. Hydras are just bad. --------- You're talking about 8 marines with a medivac btw. Sniping a hatch with an 8 marine drop is certainly possible, but it isn't all that common. An overlord normally spots the drop incoming. The medivac can just as easily be sniped as the hatch. And 8 marines die pretty quickly on the ground, even with one medivac. The point is you act like 8 marines just power through a queen, spines, and a hatch and there's very little the Zerg can do about it. Yes, 8 marines can kill a hatch, it's possible, but Zerg can also easily defend an 8 marine drop. Not sure why we're even discussing this tbh. And yeah, muta are a pain in the ass, any Terran or Protoss will tell you that, and often catch T and P with their pants down. I'm not advocating the removal of infestors, I'm saying changing fungal to a missile-based attack isn't game breaking against muta. If it were, it should likely be very easy to explain, yet you haven't really done so. You've stated 1) if your muta get fungaled it's your fault, 2) fungal being projectile-based would turn ZvZ into muta vs muta, 3) infestors are Zerg's only anti air, and 4) it is thus reasonable to be able to chain fungal muta to death with total impunity. I just disagree with these statements. Fungal being projectile-based would still allow you to chain fungal muta to death, it would simply increase the skill ceiling of infestors, which I'm in favor of. You also have spore crawlers, queens, and hydralisks, (and mutalisks and corruptors). Zergs tell Terran to spend thousands of minerals on missile turrets, is there some reason spore crawlers in conjunction with queens is bad? I think I said that sniping a hatch isn't super-easy with medivacs, but it's possible. I know that overlords can spot medivacs, and I said that letting a marine-drop snipe a base requires a mistake from the Zerg. There should no problem here. How exactly are Terrans caught with their pants down? I still play the old mutalingbling-style, and my Terrans NEVER have any turrets when my first wave of 10 mutalisks flies into their base. Still I usually can just kill a couple of scv's and supplydepots, not making game-ending damage. If that same would happen to Zerg on lair-tech, he would lose the game outright there. For Toss mutalisks are a little bit worse than Terran, but they usually at least scout the spire and prepare defences in time. You said that changing fungal to projectile would not be game-chancing against mutas, otherwise I would have explained how it is, and right after that sentence, you give 4 points I made about projectile breaking ZvZ. Many terrans have said that HSM is too easy to dodge. The same would be with fungal also, unless the speed would be really fast (EMP speed if it isn't instant as someone said), which wouldn't change anything. Hydras are bad, queens are too slow offcreep, and muta/corruptor would make ZvZ muta vs muta. Spore+queen is bad, because you cant attack with them, ever. You will see many Zergs doing spore queen vs mutalisk, but not at mass, because you can't attack with them. Thats why Terrans don't either usually make over 3/expansion turrets. Never seen tosses make mass cannon either. What I'm saying is that you haven't explained those 4 points adequately. If your muta get fungaled it's your fault? Yes. Does that mean you should automatically lose them all? I would say no. Explain why that shouldn't be more difficult on the part of the infestor-based player. As Zerg players like to say, there is too much reward, and too little risk. Fungal being a projectile would turn ZvZ into muta vs muta is what we're arguing, but you haven't really explained why in my opinion. Infestors being Zerg's only anti air is objectively false. I don't think anyone would be in favor of making fungal the speed of HSM, it would be utterly useless. The spell needs to be practical, but increasing the skill cap of it would also be good. I just don't understand why they would all of a sudden become useless vs. muta (unless you made it HSM speed, nobody would do that), if you hit a couple fungals, you can potentially kill the whole flock. This is bad? Spore+Queen is bad? By that reasoning missile turrets are bad since Terran can't attack with them. Naturally I realize you can't attack with spore+queen. But whatever you attack with you should still be able to fungal muta with a missile-based fungal since you're forcing muta to engage (in much the same way it works currently I'd imagine). Right now you can't go muta against infestors, it's suicide, and any unit should be reasonable viable in any matchup, it shouldn't just be total 100% crap. How would you make it so that when your mutas get fungaled you won't lose them all? If fungal would let them move, mutas would always go in, snipe critical tech, and run away with a few HP, regening in the corner of the map for some time, or maybe even queen/mutalisk to heal the mutas in this case. I think it shouldn't be harder for the infestor-player, because every unit has it's counters, for Zerg its mutalisk gets countered by infestor. It's a pretty hard counter, but it's good that it is, because it's also the only counter to mutalisk, unless you all-in. 2base mass roach also counters infestor, so it's the rock-paper-scissors of PvP. Making fungal projectile be the speed that marines can dodge it would make it so that mutalisks can dodge it more easily, and I don't think we're arguing fungalprojectile + mutavsmuta just because of ZvZ and mutalisks being bad at the moment. Couple of storms will also kill the whole mutalisk-flock, same with thor missile-attacks. The difference is that fungal roots, but makes less damage than thor/storm. Spore+queen is bad in the sense you were talking about them, imo. (Only spore+queen) Every Zerg already makes spore+queen to defend the mutalisks, but usually they don't make so many, because mutalisk-player needs to be attacked soon if he took a third while cancelling yours. Thats also why mass spore+queen is bad in my opinion. Mutalisks are viable in ZvZ, just not against infestor which is 70% of ZvZ. Also, nope, any unit shouldn't be viable in any matchup, if it would be that way, hydralisk would have been buffed already.
Sorry if I was unclear, I actually don't necessarily have a problem with fungal freezing muta, my point is that for that power fungal should maybe be missile-based. If you get your muta caught you still lose them, but for something with that level of power, I don't see it all that bad to make it slightly more difficult to cast. What I'm saying is that infestors still counter muta, same as before, but it takes a bit more skill to pull off if you make fungal a missile-based attack. So it rewards good infestor control, and it makes top notch muta control slightly better. I don't know what speed the missile-based attack would have to be to hit the balance between those two things appropriately, but that's something you test. The point is I think your original point that a missile-based fungal would break ZvZ isn't right, but I could be wrong about it too. It's an interesting idea to discuss anyway.
Anyway, I'm done talking about the infestor, I simply don't agree that a missile-based fungal would break ZvZ not without extensive experimentation, and we might as well leave it at that.
On July 23 2012 14:53 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +Right now you can't go muta against infestors, it's suicide, and any unit should be reasonably viable in any matchup, it shouldn't just be total 100% crap. Sure you can. The main difference is you cant go MASS Muta. But doing 10 - 15 to deny a 3rd, kill stray overlords, snipe queens (which is pretty easy und screws your opponent up massively), harrass gas, snipe a few units if they move out,... is not problem at all and can be very rewarding (as you are on 3 bases and transistion into 3 Base Roach or Roach/Infestor yourself). Even if they get chainfungaled, its not that big of a loss as you should be ahead in bases by now and he has most likely no more fungals left to worry about if you engage with your army. Going Mutas is still viable in ZvZ and quite a lot of Zerg do it. MASS Muta is not viable (unless your initial 10 Mutas did so much damage which means your opponent screwed up massively) as you cant afford to lose 30 Mutas even on 3 bases. That said I also enjoy the Queen buff in ZvZ as it turned the MU away from "look, I got one better baneling hit so I win"
I guess this is somewhat true, it just always seems so utterly ridiculous to see muta getting chain fungaled.
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On July 23 2012 14:00 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 13:52 forsooth wrote:On July 23 2012 13:40 Pinna wrote:
Still terran was favored in TvZ for the first year, and had over 50% vs Zerg for a first year and a half. Now Zerg is 60% against terran, and every terran in the world is quitting because they cant make 4 hellions into a freewin anymore. If your intention was to completely discredit yourself by posting stupid crap, you've succeeded. Congrats. Atleast tell me what part of my post was crap, unless your posts only reason was to discredit yourself by claiming that someone posted crap, because you dislike the facts that they posted. Okay, the point about hellions was a bit over-reacted.
OK... why was the post crap.
Because it shows that you don't want a balanced game, you want revenge for a perceived injustice. You seem to think that terran had to do nothing to collect freewins up until last patch and now it's Zergs turn to win no matter what they do.
But I guess you are the kind of guy that fights for female domination over males, because there was a patriarchy in your country for many hundred years, so you want to even the scales by subjecting yourself to the rule of either your girl friend or your mother/sisters.
While we are at it, lets have the native americans wipe out 80% of the non-native americans in the US (they have one genocide for free) and have the jews do the same with the germans...
Glad your sense of balance and equality isn't prevalent.
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What he tries to say is:
The fact that Terran was OP in the beggining of this game, is not a reason for Terran to be UP in this game now.
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EPT
