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On July 23 2012 05:27 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 05:24 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 05:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 04:54 plogamer wrote:On July 23 2012 04:37 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 04:25 plogamer wrote:On July 23 2012 04:02 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 03:39 sevencck wrote:On July 22 2012 23:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 22 2012 22:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:
[quote]
Great post this! I gues the biggest problem of SC2 is that games are very predictable, relatively speaking, and thus borring.
EDIT: and i blame Blizzard for this with their way of patching the game. Wander how the game would have looked if we had half decent maps in BETA, when most of the changes took place. I actually blame Zerg players (well, the ones who complain about it, pros included) for the current state of the game. With pre-nerf Terran, even though they were overpowered, it was all on Blizzard and their bad decisions, and terrible maps. With the current state of the game, I wonder if it's even fair to claim that Terran was particularly overpowered. Yes, there have been some key balance changes, but maps have also changed, metagame has changed, and I think Zerg play in particular has improved alot from what it once was. What was the balance change that altered Terran from being wildly overpowered to now being in a very questionable spot particularly in TvZ? Was it the stim nerf? The blue flame nerf (which was mostly for TvT as I recall)? The snipe nerf? The rax nerf? The bunker nerf? All of them? By that logic, then if you reverted those nerfs Terran would be OP again. Yet, I doubt it would be. I don't think Terran was particularly OP, I think there were simply some really poor maps back in 2010 and early 2011, and Zerg and Protoss only needed a couple strategic buffs in a couple areas. I'll admit there were some legitimately broken builds though (early reaper builds come to mind). I don't wanna weigh in too heavily in this debate, but in my opinion Terran has been overnerfed and Zerg overbuffed, all during a process wherein the Zerg meta was evolving more slowly than the other two races. We are now seeing the effects. I was referring to post-release Terran. Sure, some of the nerfs they've gotten since then could be reverted right now, and not unbalance the game a whole lot. Reapers could actually get speed before factory now with 5 range Queens, BC damage could go back to 10, snipe could be unnerfed, and a bunch of other small stuff. However, if you brought back something like BBS, EMP with 2.0 radius taking away all energy, 50 damage Tanks and 30 second Bunkers, Terran would be pretty powerful. They'd have some insanely strong cheese (it's hard enough for Protoss to defend 11/11 rax as is), 1/1/1 would be unstoppable, and endgame TvP would end with Protoss getting stomped after blanket EMPs over the whole army from three Ghosts. Not entirely sure how these things would affect TvZ, but proxies would kill hatch first openings 100% of the time. On July 23 2012 03:46 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 03:20 Toadvine wrote:
So, what I'm getting from this is that it would be too difficult for Zerg players to deal with Mutas the way Protosses and Terrans do (without a single Fungal instantly shutting down infinity Mutas). I guess I can understand that. Zerg macro is so difficult, there's no way they'd be able to find the apm to move around their Corruptors and Hydras. Well, so do you think that mutas are defendable (without going mass muta), or don't you? Because your corruptor buff idea suggests, that they can't. Hydras/Queens don't have blink (stalkers), huge range+splash (thors), or the costefficiency + dps of marines. Corruptors don't have the speed, nor the damage to deal with mutas. I mean, phoenix aren't the greatest defense vs mutas, but they can be useful. Corruptors are basically like phoenix, just without micro capabilities, less dps, more armor and no antiground ability. ZvZ without air fungal or something to make up for it at least partially will degenerate into mass muta vs mass muta. I'm not saying that this has to be bad (though I love ling/roach/hydra/infestor with Broodlords and Ultras having roles - the ZvZ we have right now and that, even if you don't like zerg, produces some of the best games like Leenock vs DRG or Coca vs Hyun) I'm all for taking roles away from the infestor and distributing the things it does on different units, to make for a better game and less of a lategame mass infestors style that can deal with everything on it's own, but I absolutly don't think you can "just nerf it". Especially as Infestors are Zergs main antiair right now, it would break nearly every ZvX style, not just "nerf it". (and seeing how Protoss have very good winrates vs Zerg, I don't see why that matchup would need any change, apart from making carrier transitions smoother - while keeping the overall winrates the same) Hey, I'm all for buffing stuff, and open to suggestions. Giving Corruptors splash is the simplest idea I've come up with, and doesn't affect other parts of the game too much. But if you have a better one, fire away. I'm not even proposing this as a solution to balance problems, I think it'll make the game better overall. What I take issue with are these kneejerk "IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO DEAL WITH MUTAS WITHOUT FUNGAL" reactions. I wouldn't even mind a Spire vs Spire midgame in ZvZ, as long as there's incentive and means to transition out of it. Just to nitpick on the bolded parts: Protoss were beginning to figure out 1/1/1 and shutting it down before Blizzard nerfed 1/1/1. Currently, the Terran army gets stomped after getting blanket stormed by 3 HTs. Nobody was figuring out 1/1/1 with 50 dmg to everything Tanks. Blizzard didn't nerf 1/1/1 anyway, they buffed Immortals, which did help somewhat, but it wasn't gamebreaking. 1/1/1 got partially figured out, and new maps did the rest. But I doubt it'd be easy with pre-nerf Tanks. And really, since Storm and EMP now have the same radius, blanket EMPs are about as effective as blanket Storms. You could experiment with having EMP take away all energy again, but giving it both that and the old radius back would lead to TvP looking the same as it did during the fall of 2011. Incidentally Fungal still has a radius of 2.0 for whatever reason. I was talking about the final blizzard nerf to 1/1/1. If you dont think the 1 extra range to immortal made them from a situational unit to a staple unit, then I don't know what to say. Seige tanks in their current incarnation are useless in TvP. EMPs and Storms are just so different in mechanic. Same goes for the Protoss army and Terran army. A) EMP has to be cast first and foremost. Any EMP when HTs already blow their spells, units already take shield-damage is useless. Zealots don't even have 100 shield. Making EMP half as effective against them. Storms have the luxury of being casted on a damage army to finish them off. B) Protoss army units are generally larger. That means that a 1.5 radius storm hits more Terran units than a 1.5 EMP hits Protoss units. /edit I'm not advocating for a full revert. But seriously, Terrans are at a bad bad spot. Currently the matchup is balanced, because for every Terran loss in the lategame, they get a win with cheese or other early game shenanigans. I don't deny that TvP balance is within an acceptable range, but this isn't particularly compelling evidence to support that contention. It's also not really true. Lots of Toss cheese builds work and lots of Terrans win in the lategame.
Um, like what? Note that when I say cheese, I mean actual cheese - proxy 11/11 and proxy marauders are pretty good in TvP, as are proxy hellions with a medivac on some maps (like Daybreak). Then there's a bunch of fairly effective 1 base builds and openings - marine/hellion with a medivac, traditional 1/1/1, 1 base marine/tank/medivac, Byun's reactor hellions, and so forth.
On the other hand, the only Protoss 1 base opening that I see in high-level games is blink/obs, which is very map specific - really good on Antiga and Cloud Kingdom, kind of mediocre on most others.
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On July 23 2012 05:10 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 04:54 plogamer wrote:On July 23 2012 04:37 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 04:25 plogamer wrote:On July 23 2012 04:02 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 03:39 sevencck wrote:On July 22 2012 23:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 22 2012 22:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 21 2012 21:51 Coffee Zombie wrote:Reverting the Queen buff probably wouldn't make people all-in more often. If the buff is reverted, Zerg players have to invest something into defense again - some gas (Roaches), lots of larvae (Lings) or attention and time (Crawler reroots), so they end up playing fair instead of broken - the whole point of the Hellion expand was to force us to play fair - and make no mistake, unhindered Zerg economy is broken. It was ok beforehand because you needed to outplay the opponent to access it. That isn't the case anymore when Queens are better in combat than Roaches, cost no gas or Larvae and don't need that much micro. And then you get mass creep to nerf midgame pushes. It's easy and standardizes hilariously outrageous greed. I remember when insane creep spread was impressive. I remember being impressed by very greedy Lair and Hive timings. Not anymore. Because all that shit is safe and boring. What the hell is going on if you need an all-in to punish completely ludicrous greed? Not good games, of that I'm sure.* Buffing the Terran lategame a bit is a good idea, but for goodness' sake don't leave it at that. The game is already horrible to watch because it's so binary - as Jinro put it in a comment about toss, you choose to be a rabid monkey on speed or a sedated sloth. The middleground is evaporating because noncommittal pressure has been nerfed to hell and back. And it makes for some terribly dull games. So, if you want to keep Zerg a bit safer? (Unnecessary IMHO, there never was a problem, but anyway  Revert the Queen buff, perhaps revert some Terran early game nerfs. And then help those Zerg investments in defense work better in some way. The key is just thatb defending slows the Zerg economy back to sanity and that the defense investment allows Z to fend off the Terran harassment on equal terms. *Addendum: More than an SC2 enthusiast, I'm an MtG player. I like combo because hey, broken things feel fun. One thing I've noticed over the years is that straight up broken shit stays fun only for a while - when you're still amazed that omfg how is this even allowed. Then it becomes so very dull. The one deck I've stayed with over the years is a concoction that can occasionally do hilariously broken things, but usually ends up playing fair in an attempt to stay alive and then sneak the brokenness in somewhere as a finishing blow or as a calculated risk. This keeps the temptation and fun of brokenness (in SC2, the unhindered Zerg economy) but delivers actual games. Plus doing ridiculous things feels like an accomplishment. As another way to think about it, imagine if Marines automatically did the MKP thing and beat banelings? They can do that already, but it requires good calls and micro to do it. It's a ridiculous thing as a reward of great play. Standardizing antibling splits would just make that boring and stupid-feeling instead of amazing and the feeling of greatness would just wear off in short order. Great post this! I gues the biggest problem of SC2 is that games are very predictable, relatively speaking, and thus borring. EDIT: and i blame Blizzard for this with their way of patching the game. Wander how the game would have looked if we had half decent maps in BETA, when most of the changes took place. I actually blame Zerg players (well, the ones who complain about it, pros included) for the current state of the game. With pre-nerf Terran, even though they were overpowered, it was all on Blizzard and their bad decisions, and terrible maps. With the current state of the game, I wonder if it's even fair to claim that Terran was particularly overpowered. Yes, there have been some key balance changes, but maps have also changed, metagame has changed, and I think Zerg play in particular has improved alot from what it once was. What was the balance change that altered Terran from being wildly overpowered to now being in a very questionable spot particularly in TvZ? Was it the stim nerf? The blue flame nerf (which was mostly for TvT as I recall)? The snipe nerf? The rax nerf? The bunker nerf? All of them? By that logic, then if you reverted those nerfs Terran would be OP again. Yet, I doubt it would be. I don't think Terran was particularly OP, I think there were simply some really poor maps back in 2010 and early 2011, and Zerg and Protoss only needed a couple strategic buffs in a couple areas. I'll admit there were some legitimately broken builds though (early reaper builds come to mind). I don't wanna weigh in too heavily in this debate, but in my opinion Terran has been overnerfed and Zerg overbuffed, all during a process wherein the Zerg meta was evolving more slowly than the other two races. We are now seeing the effects. I was referring to post-release Terran. Sure, some of the nerfs they've gotten since then could be reverted right now, and not unbalance the game a whole lot. Reapers could actually get speed before factory now with 5 range Queens, BC damage could go back to 10, snipe could be unnerfed, and a bunch of other small stuff. However, if you brought back something like BBS, EMP with 2.0 radius taking away all energy, 50 damage Tanks and 30 second Bunkers, Terran would be pretty powerful. They'd have some insanely strong cheese (it's hard enough for Protoss to defend 11/11 rax as is), 1/1/1 would be unstoppable, and endgame TvP would end with Protoss getting stomped after blanket EMPs over the whole army from three Ghosts. Not entirely sure how these things would affect TvZ, but proxies would kill hatch first openings 100% of the time. On July 23 2012 03:46 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 03:20 Toadvine wrote:
So, what I'm getting from this is that it would be too difficult for Zerg players to deal with Mutas the way Protosses and Terrans do (without a single Fungal instantly shutting down infinity Mutas). I guess I can understand that. Zerg macro is so difficult, there's no way they'd be able to find the apm to move around their Corruptors and Hydras. Well, so do you think that mutas are defendable (without going mass muta), or don't you? Because your corruptor buff idea suggests, that they can't. Hydras/Queens don't have blink (stalkers), huge range+splash (thors), or the costefficiency + dps of marines. Corruptors don't have the speed, nor the damage to deal with mutas. I mean, phoenix aren't the greatest defense vs mutas, but they can be useful. Corruptors are basically like phoenix, just without micro capabilities, less dps, more armor and no antiground ability. ZvZ without air fungal or something to make up for it at least partially will degenerate into mass muta vs mass muta. I'm not saying that this has to be bad (though I love ling/roach/hydra/infestor with Broodlords and Ultras having roles - the ZvZ we have right now and that, even if you don't like zerg, produces some of the best games like Leenock vs DRG or Coca vs Hyun) I'm all for taking roles away from the infestor and distributing the things it does on different units, to make for a better game and less of a lategame mass infestors style that can deal with everything on it's own, but I absolutly don't think you can "just nerf it". Especially as Infestors are Zergs main antiair right now, it would break nearly every ZvX style, not just "nerf it". (and seeing how Protoss have very good winrates vs Zerg, I don't see why that matchup would need any change, apart from making carrier transitions smoother - while keeping the overall winrates the same) Hey, I'm all for buffing stuff, and open to suggestions. Giving Corruptors splash is the simplest idea I've come up with, and doesn't affect other parts of the game too much. But if you have a better one, fire away. I'm not even proposing this as a solution to balance problems, I think it'll make the game better overall. What I take issue with are these kneejerk "IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO DEAL WITH MUTAS WITHOUT FUNGAL" reactions. I wouldn't even mind a Spire vs Spire midgame in ZvZ, as long as there's incentive and means to transition out of it. Just to nitpick on the bolded parts: Protoss were beginning to figure out 1/1/1 and shutting it down before Blizzard nerfed 1/1/1. Currently, the Terran army gets stomped after getting blanket stormed by 3 HTs. Nobody was figuring out 1/1/1 with 50 dmg to everything Tanks. Blizzard didn't nerf 1/1/1 anyway, they buffed Immortals, which did help somewhat, but it wasn't gamebreaking. 1/1/1 got partially figured out, and new maps did the rest. But I doubt it'd be easy with pre-nerf Tanks. And really, since Storm and EMP now have the same radius, blanket EMPs are about as effective as blanket Storms. You could experiment with having EMP take away all energy again, but giving it both that and the old radius back would lead to TvP looking the same as it did during the fall of 2011. Incidentally Fungal still has a radius of 2.0 for whatever reason. I was talking about the final blizzard nerf to 1/1/1. If you dont think the 1 extra range to immortal made them from a situational unit to a staple unit, then I don't know what to say. Seige tanks in their current incarnation are useless in TvP. EMPs and Storms are just so different in mechanic. Same goes for the Protoss army and Terran army. A) EMP has to be cast first and foremost. Any EMP when HTs already blow their spells, units already take shield-damage is useless. Zealots don't even have 100 shield. Making EMP half as effective against them. Storms have the luxury of being casted on a damage army to finish them off. B) Protoss army units are generally larger. That means that a 1.5 radius storm hits more Terran units than a 1.5 EMP hits Protoss units. /edit I'm not advocating for a full revert. But seriously, Terrans are at a bad bad spot. Terrans are actually doing pretty well in TvP. No idea what you're even talking about. Maybe not on the ladder, sure, but when you have Taeja's micro and can take minimal damage from storms, it's quite balanced.
As a terran player I agree with you, both have ups and downs during the process of game. When you catch the timing which barely exist in pro level tvz, you can take your advantage to win. The only thing I want to blame about is that the game itself looks kind of boring due to the factory units' impracticality.
It just reminds me another blizzard game I used to play---- Warcraft3 which arguably is inferior to sc2. But one thing I enjoy that game is balance dynamic: no matter how late stage, any race has as much chance as how awesomeness of your heros.
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On July 23 2012 05:40 StooPidMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 05:10 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 04:54 plogamer wrote:On July 23 2012 04:37 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 04:25 plogamer wrote:On July 23 2012 04:02 Toadvine wrote:On July 23 2012 03:39 sevencck wrote:On July 22 2012 23:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 22 2012 22:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 21 2012 21:51 Coffee Zombie wrote:Reverting the Queen buff probably wouldn't make people all-in more often. If the buff is reverted, Zerg players have to invest something into defense again - some gas (Roaches), lots of larvae (Lings) or attention and time (Crawler reroots), so they end up playing fair instead of broken - the whole point of the Hellion expand was to force us to play fair - and make no mistake, unhindered Zerg economy is broken. It was ok beforehand because you needed to outplay the opponent to access it. That isn't the case anymore when Queens are better in combat than Roaches, cost no gas or Larvae and don't need that much micro. And then you get mass creep to nerf midgame pushes. It's easy and standardizes hilariously outrageous greed. I remember when insane creep spread was impressive. I remember being impressed by very greedy Lair and Hive timings. Not anymore. Because all that shit is safe and boring. What the hell is going on if you need an all-in to punish completely ludicrous greed? Not good games, of that I'm sure.* Buffing the Terran lategame a bit is a good idea, but for goodness' sake don't leave it at that. The game is already horrible to watch because it's so binary - as Jinro put it in a comment about toss, you choose to be a rabid monkey on speed or a sedated sloth. The middleground is evaporating because noncommittal pressure has been nerfed to hell and back. And it makes for some terribly dull games. So, if you want to keep Zerg a bit safer? (Unnecessary IMHO, there never was a problem, but anyway Revert the Queen buff, perhaps revert some Terran early game nerfs. And then help those Zerg investments in defense work better in some way. The key is just thatb defending slows the Zerg economy back to sanity and that the defense investment allows Z to fend off the Terran harassment on equal terms. *Addendum: More than an SC2 enthusiast, I'm an MtG player. I like combo because hey, broken things feel fun. One thing I've noticed over the years is that straight up broken shit stays fun only for a while - when you're still amazed that omfg how is this even allowed. Then it becomes so very dull. The one deck I've stayed with over the years is a concoction that can occasionally do hilariously broken things, but usually ends up playing fair in an attempt to stay alive and then sneak the brokenness in somewhere as a finishing blow or as a calculated risk. This keeps the temptation and fun of brokenness (in SC2, the unhindered Zerg economy) but delivers actual games. Plus doing ridiculous things feels like an accomplishment. As another way to think about it, imagine if Marines automatically did the MKP thing and beat banelings? They can do that already, but it requires good calls and micro to do it. It's a ridiculous thing as a reward of great play. Standardizing antibling splits would just make that boring and stupid-feeling instead of amazing and the feeling of greatness would just wear off in short order. Great post this! I gues the biggest problem of SC2 is that games are very predictable, relatively speaking, and thus borring. EDIT: and i blame Blizzard for this with their way of patching the game. Wander how the game would have looked if we had half decent maps in BETA, when most of the changes took place. I actually blame Zerg players (well, the ones who complain about it, pros included) for the current state of the game. With pre-nerf Terran, even though they were overpowered, it was all on Blizzard and their bad decisions, and terrible maps. With the current state of the game, I wonder if it's even fair to claim that Terran was particularly overpowered. Yes, there have been some key balance changes, but maps have also changed, metagame has changed, and I think Zerg play in particular has improved alot from what it once was. What was the balance change that altered Terran from being wildly overpowered to now being in a very questionable spot particularly in TvZ? Was it the stim nerf? The blue flame nerf (which was mostly for TvT as I recall)? The snipe nerf? The rax nerf? The bunker nerf? All of them? By that logic, then if you reverted those nerfs Terran would be OP again. Yet, I doubt it would be. I don't think Terran was particularly OP, I think there were simply some really poor maps back in 2010 and early 2011, and Zerg and Protoss only needed a couple strategic buffs in a couple areas. I'll admit there were some legitimately broken builds though (early reaper builds come to mind). I don't wanna weigh in too heavily in this debate, but in my opinion Terran has been overnerfed and Zerg overbuffed, all during a process wherein the Zerg meta was evolving more slowly than the other two races. We are now seeing the effects. I was referring to post-release Terran. Sure, some of the nerfs they've gotten since then could be reverted right now, and not unbalance the game a whole lot. Reapers could actually get speed before factory now with 5 range Queens, BC damage could go back to 10, snipe could be unnerfed, and a bunch of other small stuff. However, if you brought back something like BBS, EMP with 2.0 radius taking away all energy, 50 damage Tanks and 30 second Bunkers, Terran would be pretty powerful. They'd have some insanely strong cheese (it's hard enough for Protoss to defend 11/11 rax as is), 1/1/1 would be unstoppable, and endgame TvP would end with Protoss getting stomped after blanket EMPs over the whole army from three Ghosts. Not entirely sure how these things would affect TvZ, but proxies would kill hatch first openings 100% of the time. On July 23 2012 03:46 Big J wrote:On July 23 2012 03:20 Toadvine wrote:
So, what I'm getting from this is that it would be too difficult for Zerg players to deal with Mutas the way Protosses and Terrans do (without a single Fungal instantly shutting down infinity Mutas). I guess I can understand that. Zerg macro is so difficult, there's no way they'd be able to find the apm to move around their Corruptors and Hydras. Well, so do you think that mutas are defendable (without going mass muta), or don't you? Because your corruptor buff idea suggests, that they can't. Hydras/Queens don't have blink (stalkers), huge range+splash (thors), or the costefficiency + dps of marines. Corruptors don't have the speed, nor the damage to deal with mutas. I mean, phoenix aren't the greatest defense vs mutas, but they can be useful. Corruptors are basically like phoenix, just without micro capabilities, less dps, more armor and no antiground ability. ZvZ without air fungal or something to make up for it at least partially will degenerate into mass muta vs mass muta. I'm not saying that this has to be bad (though I love ling/roach/hydra/infestor with Broodlords and Ultras having roles - the ZvZ we have right now and that, even if you don't like zerg, produces some of the best games like Leenock vs DRG or Coca vs Hyun) I'm all for taking roles away from the infestor and distributing the things it does on different units, to make for a better game and less of a lategame mass infestors style that can deal with everything on it's own, but I absolutly don't think you can "just nerf it". Especially as Infestors are Zergs main antiair right now, it would break nearly every ZvX style, not just "nerf it". (and seeing how Protoss have very good winrates vs Zerg, I don't see why that matchup would need any change, apart from making carrier transitions smoother - while keeping the overall winrates the same) Hey, I'm all for buffing stuff, and open to suggestions. Giving Corruptors splash is the simplest idea I've come up with, and doesn't affect other parts of the game too much. But if you have a better one, fire away. I'm not even proposing this as a solution to balance problems, I think it'll make the game better overall. What I take issue with are these kneejerk "IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO DEAL WITH MUTAS WITHOUT FUNGAL" reactions. I wouldn't even mind a Spire vs Spire midgame in ZvZ, as long as there's incentive and means to transition out of it. Just to nitpick on the bolded parts: Protoss were beginning to figure out 1/1/1 and shutting it down before Blizzard nerfed 1/1/1. Currently, the Terran army gets stomped after getting blanket stormed by 3 HTs. Nobody was figuring out 1/1/1 with 50 dmg to everything Tanks. Blizzard didn't nerf 1/1/1 anyway, they buffed Immortals, which did help somewhat, but it wasn't gamebreaking. 1/1/1 got partially figured out, and new maps did the rest. But I doubt it'd be easy with pre-nerf Tanks. And really, since Storm and EMP now have the same radius, blanket EMPs are about as effective as blanket Storms. You could experiment with having EMP take away all energy again, but giving it both that and the old radius back would lead to TvP looking the same as it did during the fall of 2011. Incidentally Fungal still has a radius of 2.0 for whatever reason. I was talking about the final blizzard nerf to 1/1/1. If you dont think the 1 extra range to immortal made them from a situational unit to a staple unit, then I don't know what to say. Seige tanks in their current incarnation are useless in TvP. EMPs and Storms are just so different in mechanic. Same goes for the Protoss army and Terran army. A) EMP has to be cast first and foremost. Any EMP when HTs already blow their spells, units already take shield-damage is useless. Zealots don't even have 100 shield. Making EMP half as effective against them. Storms have the luxury of being casted on a damage army to finish them off. B) Protoss army units are generally larger. That means that a 1.5 radius storm hits more Terran units than a 1.5 EMP hits Protoss units. /edit I'm not advocating for a full revert. But seriously, Terrans are at a bad bad spot. Terrans are actually doing pretty well in TvP. No idea what you're even talking about. Maybe not on the ladder, sure, but when you have Taeja's micro and can take minimal damage from storms, it's quite balanced. As a terran player I agree with you, both have ups and downs during the process of game. When you catch the timing which barely exist in pro level tvz, you can take your advantage to win. The only thing I want to blame about is that the game itself looks kind of boring due to the factory units' impracticality. It just reminds me another blizzard game I used to play---- Warcraft3 which arguably is inferior to sc2. But one thing I enjoy that game is balance dynamic: no matter how late stage, any race has as much chance as how awesomeness of your heros.
Bitch no you didn't!
I think we all have come to the conclusion that terrans need to spend their gas. A few small buffs to make this happen is all it needs to fix the endgame. But then we are indeed left with a rather boring early game unless the reaper opening starts becoming really good or something.
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Why are people discussing about Terran's resource management?
It has nothing to do with balance.
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On July 23 2012 06:43 Rokoz wrote:
Why are people discussing about Terran's resource management?
It has nothing to do with balance.
Ziggitz obviously thinks it does tho.
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On July 23 2012 06:43 Rokoz wrote:
Why are people discussing about Terran's resource management?
It has nothing to do with balance. It has everything to do with balance. If Zergs were ever floating huge quantities of gas before maxing, and then losing on a regular basis, it would be one of the first things pointed to by the denizens of the ladder of all races. Being economically sub-optimal has simply become so commonplace for Terran that nobody bats an eye at it.
Economic optimization through the midgame could strengthen said midgame and reveal that much of the problem was in inefficiency, and not in actual balance. Zerg lategame used to be considered the worst lategame of the 3 races. Their Hive-tech was considered super weak. You'll note that this appears not to be the case anymore. 
Balance can't really be discussed until inefficiencies in play are removed. A few extra units in a midgame push can make a big difference in its effectiveness.
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On July 23 2012 07:58 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 06:43 Rokoz wrote:
Why are people discussing about Terran's resource management?
It has nothing to do with balance. It has everything to do with balance. If Zergs were ever floating huge quantities of gas before maxing, and then losing on a regular basis, it would be one of the first things pointed to by the denizens of the ladder of all races. Being economically sub-optimal has simply become so commonplace for Terran that nobody bats an eye at it. Economic optimization through the midgame could strengthen said midgame and reveal that much of the problem was in inefficiency, and not in actual balance. Zerg lategame used to be considered the worst lategame of the 3 races. Their Hive-tech was considered super weak. You'll note that this appears not to be the case anymore. Balance can't really be discussed until inefficiencies in play are removed. A few extra units in a midgame push can make a big difference in its effectiveness.
Yeah, except that's not actually what's happening. Terran needs to float some gas in the midgame because if they scout Zerg's tech they'll immediately need to be pumping out gas-units like Marauders/Vikings/Ghosts etc. No Terran midgame push would benefit at all from what's being discussed in this thread, because what's being discussed in this thread isn't even relevant until the late late game, where it's pointless for different reasons. Terran players can only support a certain amount of production off of a certain amount of bases. They are mineral limited by this, and they are generally oversaturated on all mineral lines. It would be completely pointless to maynard SCVs away from gas only to put them back on a moment later because Terran mineral lines are not in need of extra SCVs. A 2base Terran who opens 3OC is producing a tonne of SCVs and MULEs. He will be saturated on 2 bases very, very quickly. It doesn't hurt him at all to be mining gas during this time, because once he expands to his third base, he will be using up that gas with the new mineral ceiling he'll gain.
The problem has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency and I'm pretty sure every Zerg knows this. As long as Terran isn't losing their key units in big battles, they don't run out of gas quickly because in general everything costs mostly minerals for Terran. Seriously, unless Terran is making an army of Ravens, BCs, or Ghosts, they're not spending that much gas, which means that even if Terran loses an engagement, depending on what he loses he made only need to remake cheaper units like Marines and Marauders.
But this is all beside the point because Terran does not lose anything from mining gas because they always oversaturate in order that when they take their third they can saturate it immediately. Unless you think the cost of a few SCVs is relevant (it's not and isn't worth it since you don't know how many SCVs you're going to lose etc) there's nothing to discuss here. Play the race a bit before you suggest mind numbing points like this. This is even worse than Terrans/Protoss telling Zergs to use Nydus.
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I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel.
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On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel.
You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right?
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On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right?
Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean?
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On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean?
Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs.
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On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs.
You must have missed out on the first year and a half of this game.
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On July 23 2012 12:29 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs. You must have missed out on the first year and a half of this game.
And you must have missed the last six months of this game.
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On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs.
Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical.
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On July 23 2012 12:45 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs. Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical.
If the mutalisk are moving, it isn't easy already, and mutas will always move away when they see infestors.
It's as ridicilous to see 8 marines clean up a whole expansion with spines in lategame, and that requires the Zerg to make a mistake. The same thing with a flock of mutas, if all your mutas get caught by one fungal, its your fault. Fungal not hitting air, or a slow projectile would be a critical nerf making ZvZ be only mutalisk vs mutalisk, which is as critical as was the 4gate vs 4gate @PvP.
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On July 23 2012 12:52 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 12:45 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs. Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical. If the mutalisk are moving, it isn't easy already, and mutas will always move away when they see infestors. It's as ridicilous to see 8 marines clean up a whole expansion with spines in lategame, and that requires the Zerg to make a mistake. The same thing with a flock of mutas, if all your mutas get caught by one fungal, its your fault. Fungal not hitting air, or a slow projectile would be a critical nerf making ZvZ be only mutalisk vs mutalisk, which is as critical as was the 4gate vs 4gate @PvP.
1. 8 marines cleaning up a whole expansion with spines? Do we watch the same game? 8 marines would be lucky to snipe a queen if they land at an expansion with spines.
2. If even this were possible, no it would be far less ridiculous. If you don't bother killing a drop it's your fault if you take damage, even heavy damage. Catching a flock of muta with a spell that isn't even projectile-based, which prevents them from moving, then simply fungaling them again and again until they die is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing in the game.
3. You act like you're supposed to catch muta. You do realize that neither Terran nor Protoss can effectively catch mutalisks right? The best they can do is chase them away. Why should Zerg be able to freeze them in place and kill them by repeat casting a spell that outranges those same muta? Muta are designed as a speedy harass unit, but not in ZvZ?
4. I don't think it would turn ZvZ into a muta vs muta fest, infestors would still be useful, and maybe this could be an interesting niche role for hydralisks.
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On July 23 2012 13:01 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 12:52 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 12:45 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs. Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical. If the mutalisk are moving, it isn't easy already, and mutas will always move away when they see infestors. It's as ridicilous to see 8 marines clean up a whole expansion with spines in lategame, and that requires the Zerg to make a mistake. The same thing with a flock of mutas, if all your mutas get caught by one fungal, its your fault. Fungal not hitting air, or a slow projectile would be a critical nerf making ZvZ be only mutalisk vs mutalisk, which is as critical as was the 4gate vs 4gate @PvP. 1. 8 marines cleaning up a whole expansion with spines? Do we watch the same game? 8 marines would be lucky to snipe a queen if they land at an expansion with spines. 2. If even this were possible, no it would be far less ridiculous. If you don't bother killing a drop it's your fault if you take damage, even heavy damage. Catching a flock of muta with a spell that isn't even projectile-based, which prevents them from moving, then simply fungaling them again and again until they die is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing in the game. 3. You act like you're supposed to catch muta. You do realize that neither Terran nor Protoss can effectively catch mutalisks right? The best they can do is chase them away. Why should Zerg be able to freeze them in place and kill them by repeat casting a spell that outranges those same muta? Muta are designed as a speedy harass unit, but not in ZvZ? 4. I don't think it would turn ZvZ into a muta vs muta fest, infestors would still be useful, and maybe this could be an interesting niche role for hydralisks.
1. No, we don't. Have you ever even played this game?
2. It is your fault for keeping all the mutalisk in flock when going to harass. If not harassing, it's your fault for not being aware of the danger of the infestor.
3. Yes, you're supposed to catch muta. You do realise that Zerg has neither the firepower, early access, and cheap price of the Terrans marine, or the early access, blink-able high-hp stalker? Infestor is the only effective anti-air of Zerg with which you can attack. Thats why chain-fungaling mutalisks is OK, and making Zerg not able to do it would break ZvZ.
4. Mutas destroy hydras because of their mobility compared to hydras. You can just be where the hydras are not, and do some damage with your mutas, and even minor damage in a mirror match-up might make you lose.
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On July 23 2012 13:01 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 12:52 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 12:45 sevencck wrote:On July 23 2012 11:35 Pinna wrote:On July 23 2012 10:47 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2012 10:45 -KarakStarcraft- wrote:On July 23 2012 09:33 Iron_ wrote:
I think Ziggy saying that Taeja and other top Terrans don't know how to manage their econ has crossed into comic relief territory. Lets all just leave it at that.
I did see a suggestion that seemed really sweet, and makes a lot of sense. Someone mentioned the infestor should have a projectile, and that fungal should match the radius of storm and emp. This makes 1000% sense. From my experience playing and watching, there is a window for the Terran to do some damage, but once the zerg has the ultimate defense going (infestor), attacking them is practically suicide.
And how did fungal escape the same nerf that begot both storm and emp? I believe this happened because at the time of the major complaints of storm/emp, nobody was making infestors (it amazes me how long it took zerg to bail on the muta/ling/bling plan and move to infestor, they are really really good). So now that every zerg is making infestors, we don't need to go overboard here, but why can't they just have the same radius as emp and storm? I mean, the spell is already better even with the same radius since it holds units.
Also, with a projectile it would take a little more skill to cast the spell (think ghost emp/snipe animation which makes ghosts much harder to use vs an instant cast). Pre-splitting would actually work sometimes, and the doors to the zerg front door gate would be a little more like solid Oak rather than steel. You realize fungal becoming a projectile was actually on the PTR for a while before it became obvious that that was just a terrible thing to do to the spell, right? Obvious in the sense that a tonne of Zergs cried about it, you mean? Obvious in the sense that catching mutalisks with the projectile was impossible. Also, Terrans cry WAY MORE than Zergs. Not seeing the downside here. It should be difficult. One of the most ridiculous things to watch in this game is a flock of mutalisks getting chain fungaled to death. Besides, I don't think balancing around mirror matchups is a very good idea, unless it is something absolutely critical. If the mutalisk are moving, it isn't easy already, and mutas will always move away when they see infestors. It's as ridicilous to see 8 marines clean up a whole expansion with spines in lategame, and that requires the Zerg to make a mistake. The same thing with a flock of mutas, if all your mutas get caught by one fungal, its your fault. Fungal not hitting air, or a slow projectile would be a critical nerf making ZvZ be only mutalisk vs mutalisk, which is as critical as was the 4gate vs 4gate @PvP. 1. 8 marines cleaning up a whole expansion with spines? Do we watch the same game? 8 marines would be lucky to snipe a queen if they land at an expansion with spines. 2. If even this were possible, no it would be far less ridiculous. If you don't bother killing a drop it's your fault if you take damage, even heavy damage. Catching a flock of muta with a spell that isn't even projectile-based, which prevents them from moving, then simply fungaling them again and again until they die is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing in the game. 3. You act like you're supposed to catch muta. You do realize that neither Terran nor Protoss can effectively catch mutalisks right? The best they can do is chase them away. Why should Zerg be able to freeze them in place and kill them by repeat casting a spell that outranges those same muta? Muta are designed as a speedy harass unit, but not in ZvZ? 4. I don't think it would turn ZvZ into a muta vs muta fest, infestors would still be useful, and maybe this could be an interesting niche role for hydralisks. 1. 8 3/3 marines clear a Zerg expo (even with spines) ridiculously quickly, unless more than 2 can hit the marines at once.
2. Depending on how far away the expo is from your army, and given that infestors are outright necessary to deal with 3/3 drops, it's typically not even possible to save a base if you're forced to deal with it reactively as opposed to proactively .
3. Both Terran and Protoss have highly mobile anti-air. Zerg has queens and hydralisks, which are miserably slow off-creep and are weak to common transitions if spotted in force.
4. Without fungal rooting I would not fear a single Zerg that wasn't going spire tech. It would almost certainly be a muta fest. And frankly without the ability to quickly see exactly how many mutas the opponent has, spire vs. spire is incredibly frustrating to play. Muta vs. Muta engagements snowball very, very suddenly, and slight disadvantages can quickly become insurmountable in the time it takes to inject a couple hatcheries.
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Actions speak louder than words.
As a terran player since season 1, I have quit until they patch this game. Its no longer fun to watch OR play TvZ. I can't wait until esport RTS games are not just monopoly with Blizz (HoN/Dota don't count for me).
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On July 23 2012 13:17 Kenshi235 wrote:
Actions speak louder than words.
As a terran player since season 1, I have quit until they patch this game. Its no longer fun to watch OR play TvZ. I can't wait until esport RTS games are not just monopoly with Blizz (HoN/Dota don't count for me).
Join the club.
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EPT
