Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 324

On July 27 2012 05:47 Shiori wrote:

lategame TvP is fine.

On July 27 2012 05:47 Shiori wrote:

lategame TvP is fine.

On July 27 2012 06:09 Bagi wrote:

..said the protoss.

Seriously now, even Blizzard says protoss has an advantage in the lategame.

On July 27 2012 06:08 sieksdekciw wrote:

Ah, toss. To be COMPLETELY HONEST, I never actually said that I am fine with toss either.

What is more, I have pointed out in many posts and on many occasions that I believe the skill requirement for toss could allow 3 year old children with mental retardation and polio to enter masters with no problem. It is the race that requires the least apm, facilitates a moving, and has the strongest units.

However, since the toss problem and the broken warp gate mechanics have been addressed many times on TL, especially in the previous months, I believe I have nothing more to say about toss but my recommendation of nerfing warpgate/zealot health so a late game engagement near your base doesn't outright kill the terran.

I post only when I have something constructive to suggest, which is what I did with my proposal for the queen's abilities to become channeling. You trying to twist my post to sound like a balance whine is not really appreciated. Only thing I got out of it is that you are a zerg player uncertain if he is going to retain his league once the inevitable nerfs come.

On July 27 2012 06:25 Thrombozyt wrote:
The late game warp-in problem could be avoided partly, if pylons only power warp-ins if not under fire.

Only if shields could possibly regenerate, the warp-in continues and is paused the instance the pylon comes under fire.

Oh.. and refund only 75% of the resources, if a warp-in gets canceled.

On July 27 2012 06:14 Shiori wrote:

Blizzard said that many months ago, and was as wrong then as they are now. Lategame TvP has been figured out by the top level players. Just because Avilo is notoriously awful at it doesn't mean anything.

On July 27 2012 06:32 Toadvine wrote:


I don't think there's any way to meaningfully nerf lategame warpins without a major overhaul of the mechanic itself. Not even making warp-ins only possible next to Nexi or a warp prism would make a difference lategame. It'd have to be something really drastic, like maybe warped-in units costing 25 more minerals? In any case, there's no way to fix it without an expansion, and Browder doesn't even seem aware of the problem.

On July 27 2012 05:17 sieksdekciw wrote:

How was I partly wrong?
It has been two seasons in which zergs totally dominate EU ladder. Only juggernauts as Kas, Beasty and Happy seemed to hold on.

Today, when I look @ sc2ranks, I see a bunch of zergs I've never heard of, also tosses. Almost no terrans, and where there are, they are famous pros, or at least names we see often on gm and as ESL/eu playhem winners/runner ups.

Look at this:


Again, I repeat

Top 200:

protoss: 95
random: 1
terran: 42
zerg: 87

This is not balance nor is a laughing matter. It is not that suddenly zerg players 'figured out the game'. Here is the problem:

Problem
Queen is an all functions unit that ensures macro mechanics, heals EVERYTHING, mobile anti air, mobile early game defense, ensures late game superiority by spreading creep which gives zerg army vision AND mobility AND stops building placement. Zerg, as the race with the strongest economy if left untouched, can after the patch just focus on making drones, resulting in absurd games where zerg takes 3-rd hatch virtually uncontested vs toss and terran, while not making fighting units and continuing drones, making zerg safely approach late game with eco advantage.

So, zerg not only approaches late game safely cause of queen, but zerg approaches it with an advantage in eco. In addition, zerg late game units are stronger than terran's, so terran is double behind. Also, late game zerg army is ridiculously easy to control as compared to a terran composition and fungals and banes make one mistake costing you the game, something that terran doesn't have an equivalent to.

Solution
Queen has to lose one or more of versatile functions, so zerg actually can be contested in early to mid game, so terran doesn't enter late game with such a disadvantage. Blizzard said it 'as terran, if you did not do damage early to mid game, you will enter late game at a disadvantage'. My proposed solution is to make creep inject and tumor spread be channeling abilities, that will occupy the queen all of the time. This way, reaper openings and hellion openings won't be immediately stopped after the first queen pops out, and zerg players might have to choose whether to defend his drones with queens, or focus on economy and make units. But it definitely shouldn't be that the queen gives both an eco boost and such powerful defensive capabilities.

Problem 2
Zergs nowadays make infestors to counter EVERY possible tech terran has. Whether it is battlecruisers, ravens or marines, even tanks, infestors have a range of useful abilities that just demolish every composition cost effectively. Due to fungal range, it is very easy to cast out of distance and very hard to react to. What is more, once it hits your army, there is nothing you can do but to sit and take it. Due to brood lord range, it is very hard to actually approach the infestor with the only thing that remotely counters it (the ghost). What is more, even if you do, your ghost will die almost for sure, and due to infestor size, you can hit at most 2-3 infestors with an emp. So what you achieved is actually lose your ghost but the infestors are alive. Or you can kill an infestor with snipe, die to broodlings, in which case you have lost more resources than the zerg.

Solution 2
Fungal has to have either lower range, do less damage, be over less area, be non instant, or all of the above. This way, zerg late game compositions will be approachable and one mistake on the terran side wouldn't cost them the game.

On July 27 2012 06:36 Bagi wrote:

I guess you have a ton of recent endgame winrates to base this or even high level examples of this occuring? You know, anything other than "because I said so"?

Because as far as I can tell, terrans are still winning their games in the midgame.

On July 27 2012 07:00 Tao367 wrote:


There is literally nothing wrong with protoss warpins, if you're losing when the protoss is warping in next to your base, you went wrong before that moment. You are not losing because of warpins.

On July 27 2012 07:50 Toadvine wrote:

FYI, Protoss is my main race, and I don't think WG is imbalanced.

On July 27 2012 07:40 Shiori wrote:

That doesn't mean Terran is getting smashed in the lategame. Very few PvTs in general even progress to the lategame. Hell, the few notable ones we do get tend to be marred by a huge disparity in skill (say, Squirtle vs a foreigner). Those excellent games way back when between Parting and MKP still remain the benchmark for how lategame PVT can and should work, and although the metagame has shifted slightly since then, I'd say it's actually shifted more toward Terran as they've become more comfortable with lategame control and using Planetaries to take advantage of the map.

Also, recent Protoss success? I wouldn't say there's been a whole lot of it. Just because Protoss will win a GSL for the first time in over a year doesn't exactly mean there's a huge slew of Protoss wins. A Terran won MLG Summer Arena. A Zerg won NASL. A Zerg won HSC. Where is this wealth of Protoss success?

If you are losing to Zerg as Terran, it is because Zerg is at a point right now where no amount of control will put you in a good position against certain strategies/compositions. If you are losing to Protoss as Terran in the lategame,it is because you do not understand how to engage. Why do I know this? Because there are defined ways of engaging that high level Terrans do on a regular basis with fairly reliable success (i.e. around 50%). Until every Terran starts dropping against scrub level Protosses (which is what's happened variously with TvZ) there's no evidence of a problem.

On July 27 2012 06:32 Toadvine wrote:


I don't think there's any way to meaningfully nerf lategame warpins without a major overhaul of the mechanic itself. Not even making warp-ins only possible next to Nexi or a warp prism would make a difference lategame. It'd have to be something really drastic, like maybe warped-in units costing 25 more minerals? In any case, there's no way to fix it without an expansion, and Browder doesn't even seem aware of the problem.

On July 27 2012 07:40 Shiori wrote:

That doesn't mean Terran is getting smashed in the lategame. Very few PvTs in general even progress to the lategame. Hell, the few notable ones we do get tend to be marred by a huge disparity in skill (say, Squirtle vs a foreigner). Those excellent games way back when between Parting and MKP still remain the benchmark for how lategame PVT can and should work, and although the metagame has shifted slightly since then, I'd say it's actually shifted more toward Terran as they've become more comfortable with lategame control and using Planetaries to take advantage of the map.

Also, recent Protoss success? I wouldn't say there's been a whole lot of it. Just because Protoss will win a GSL for the first time in over a year doesn't exactly mean there's a huge slew of Protoss wins. A Terran won MLG Summer Arena. A Zerg won NASL. A Zerg won HSC. Where is this wealth of Protoss success?

If you are losing to Zerg as Terran, it is because Zerg is at a point right now where no amount of control will put you in a good position against certain strategies/compositions. If you are losing to Protoss as Terran in the lategame,it is because you do not understand how to engage. Why do I know this? Because there are defined ways of engaging that high level Terrans do on a regular basis with fairly reliable success (i.e. around 50%). Until every Terran starts dropping against scrub level Protosses (which is what's happened variously with TvZ) there's no evidence of a problem.