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On July 27 2012 15:59 BadBinky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 15:31 RavenLoud wrote:On July 27 2012 11:13 Shasta37 wrote:On July 27 2012 11:09 convention wrote:On July 27 2012 10:48 Shasta37 wrote:On July 27 2012 10:44 Fig wrote:On July 27 2012 09:13 Schlendrian wrote:On July 27 2012 08:42 Toadvine wrote:On July 27 2012 08:24 Schlendrian wrote:On July 27 2012 06:32 Toadvine wrote:
[quote]
I don't think there's any way to meaningfully nerf lategame warpins without a major overhaul of the mechanic itself. Not even making warp-ins only possible next to Nexi or a warp prism would make a difference lategame. It'd have to be something really drastic, like maybe warped-in units costing 25 more minerals? In any case, there's no way to fix it without an expansion, and Browder doesn't even seem aware of the problem. Wouldn't it be an easy solution, if the warpgate stays on cooldown, as soon as you're maxed out? So basically, you warp in units and if you have warp-ins left, you can use them for remax. But the Gates you used stay on cooldown, until supply is there for the unit of your desire. Any and all measures which rely on the Protoss maxing out can be worked around by stopping at 199/200. Ok, then let's say you need the supply left over for the specific unit, like Terran basically. CD for the first Warpgate starts at 198/200, for the second at 196/200 and so on. Having warpgates off cooldown at max has literally never been a problem balance wise in a pro game. Show me a single broadcast game that has these balance implications. Just because protoss gateways units can reinforce in 5 seconds instead of 25 doesn't mean it's imbalanced... Blizzard already took this fact into account by making gateway units terribly inefficient compared to tier one units of other races. They also took away KA so HTs can't be useful right away, and if you morph them into archons, that's 2 gateways worth of units and takes 15 secs. Definitely not a problem. We don't want every race to play the same way... If you would rather have weak units that reinforce quickly, choose zerg or toss rather than terran. Terran has to wait a bit longer, but the wait is worth it because their units are much more cost effective. Have you never seen how good a zealot warpin does after a major battle in TvP? The way I see it is that protoss can have a fast reinforce, so they can effectively have a +20 supply army (assuming 10 warpgates). However, terran can have a +20 supply army from throwing away SCVs and using MULES. Both terran and protoss are able to increase their army size the later the game goes on with their macro mechanic. This is a pretty good argument. It also might help explain why Protoss seems to win most of the time against Terran in lategame engagements where the Terran's army supply is similar. I'd argue that at 200/200, a protoss army value is far superior than a maxed bio army. If you open up the army tab of late game TvP where both players are maxed, you'd almost always see that despite being even army supply, the Protoss has 1-2k more overall army resource value, especially in gas. I agree. Marines are way too cost efficient. They should cost gas too.
Just like Warpprisms and Speedlots^^
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On July 27 2012 10:52 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 10:48 Shasta37 wrote:On July 27 2012 10:44 Fig wrote:On July 27 2012 09:13 Schlendrian wrote:On July 27 2012 08:42 Toadvine wrote:On July 27 2012 08:24 Schlendrian wrote:On July 27 2012 06:32 Toadvine wrote:On July 27 2012 06:25 Thrombozyt wrote:
The late game warp-in problem could be avoided partly, if pylons only power warp-ins if not under fire.
Only if shields could possibly regenerate, the warp-in continues and is paused the instance the pylon comes under fire.
Oh.. and refund only 75% of the resources, if a warp-in gets canceled. I don't think there's any way to meaningfully nerf lategame warpins without a major overhaul of the mechanic itself. Not even making warp-ins only possible next to Nexi or a warp prism would make a difference lategame. It'd have to be something really drastic, like maybe warped-in units costing 25 more minerals? In any case, there's no way to fix it without an expansion, and Browder doesn't even seem aware of the problem. Wouldn't it be an easy solution, if the warpgate stays on cooldown, as soon as you're maxed out? So basically, you warp in units and if you have warp-ins left, you can use them for remax. But the Gates you used stay on cooldown, until supply is there for the unit of your desire. Any and all measures which rely on the Protoss maxing out can be worked around by stopping at 199/200. Ok, then let's say you need the supply left over for the specific unit, like Terran basically. CD for the first Warpgate starts at 198/200, for the second at 196/200 and so on. Having warpgates off cooldown at max has literally never been a problem balance wise in a pro game. Show me a single broadcast game that has these balance implications. Just because protoss gateways units can reinforce in 5 seconds instead of 25 doesn't mean it's imbalanced... Blizzard already took this fact into account by making gateway units terribly inefficient compared to tier one units of other races. They also took away KA so HTs can't be useful right away, and if you morph them into archons, that's 2 gateways worth of units and takes 15 secs. Definitely not a problem. We don't want every race to play the same way... If you would rather have weak units that reinforce quickly, choose zerg or toss rather than terran. Terran has to wait a bit longer, but the wait is worth it because their units are much more cost effective. Have you never seen how good a zealot warpin does after a major battle in TvP? I would expect a warpin of zealots to do some damage to a damaged terran force... Otherwise toss wouldn't do it. And sometimes they don't do it because they know it won't be effective enough. It all depends on how the battle turns out. Your question is like asking, "Have you never seen a cloaked banshee get 20 kills in TvP because toss didn't go robo? Of course those kinds of things happen, because the game is about winning, not letting your opponents off the hook
The cloakshee getting 20 kills is like the DT getting 20 kills. Both requires a major derp from the victim. So cut it out.
The most impressive power of warp-ins in a recent pro-game would be Ryung in the Up&Down on CK vs some protoss I forgot. Basically Ryung was entrenched on 3 bases with bio, siegetanks, medivac/viking and a few ghosts. The protoss engages through the tiny choke at the natural (rocks were not down), gets EMPed and shelled on the ramp and has his colossi sniped rather quickly. They still proceed to trade even and 3/3 chargelots roll everything before even one production cycle from ryung is out and just cannot be killed.
It was the most hilarious example of what's wrong. LR tosses pointed out, that toss was on 3-3 while terran was only on 2-2. But in reverse, the army would have been slaughtered so bad...
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I guess somewhat of a fix would be to allow the production of terran to start at 200/200 and then halt at 99% until the supply was there..
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On July 27 2012 17:54 Osteriet wrote:
I guess somewhat of a fix would be to allow the production of terran to start at 200/200 and then halt at 99% until the supply was there..
But that would make higher tech units cruisers silly overpowere in lategame. Killing and army and facing 7 thors, 6 hellions, 4 vikings, 4 cruisers and 2 ravens!??
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On July 27 2012 17:58 Toastie.NL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 17:54 Osteriet wrote:
I guess somewhat of a fix would be to allow the production of terran to start at 200/200 and then halt at 99% until the supply was there.. But that would make higher tech units cruisers silly overpowere in lategame. Killing and army and facing 7 thors, 6 hellions, 4 vikings, 4 cruisers and 2 ravens!??
Yep... cuz every every terran can afford 10 facts and 8 starports. That's a measly 3.6k/2.4k in production facilities and 5.1k/3.2k in units. Now lets just briefly think about what protoss can do, given enough time and 8.7k/5.6k in resources. Imagine the existing standard 10 warpgates. Then add 30 additional gates and enough resources (especially gas) to warp in whatever they like, twice. Yep, that's 160 army supply within 40 seconds. Honestly.. I wouldn't be scared of crappy high tech units...
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On July 27 2012 17:58 Toastie.NL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 17:54 Osteriet wrote:
I guess somewhat of a fix would be to allow the production of terran to start at 200/200 and then halt at 99% until the supply was there.. But that would make higher tech units cruisers silly overpowere in lategame. Killing and army and facing 7 thors, 6 hellions, 4 vikings, 4 cruisers and 2 ravens!??
Maybe instead of that, Terran could have an easier to place/use supply-free defensive turret. Like the campaign one. With the fire.
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On July 27 2012 17:58 Toastie.NL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 17:54 Osteriet wrote:
I guess somewhat of a fix would be to allow the production of terran to start at 200/200 and then halt at 99% until the supply was there.. But that would make higher tech units cruisers silly overpowere in lategame. Killing and army and facing 7 thors, 6 hellions, 4 vikings, 4 cruisers and 2 ravens!??
That would mean an investment into 10fac and 8starports. Thats 1800 gas excluding addons. Perhaps terran should actually benefit from their insanely expensive production?
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Offtopic, but I remember a torrent of posts a few months back about TvP, as far as I can see, such posts have dropped dramatically, without any balance changes from Blizzard as a catalyst. Did Terrans figure it out or were such posts unwarranted?
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On July 27 2012 21:23 Province wrote:
Offtopic, but I remember a torrent of posts a few months back about TvP, as far as I can see, such posts have dropped dramatically, without any balance changes from Blizzard as a catalyst. Did Terrans figure it out or were such posts unwarranted?
They switched races or stopped playing..
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So how about those PvP finals :p It all ties back to the design of the race. When your race is centered around warpgate and Colossus, you're going to get a lot of gateway allins and mass Colossi.
On July 27 2012 21:41 monkybone wrote:
Giving terran the tech reactor from the campaign (a reactor which works for all units, e.g. 2 tanks at a time) as an upgrade from the fusion core or something could give terran the production they lack in the late game. Could be an upgrade on the reactors and tech labs themselves, like a transformation.
That would be a bit too strong. TvP late game comes down to micro, that's it. Both sides have to micro like crazy to win. Only difference is Terrans have to be a little bit better about splitting vs Storms. I like the idea of adding some of the crazier stuff from the campaign to the multiplayer though.
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On July 27 2012 21:23 Province wrote:
Offtopic, but I remember a torrent of posts a few months back about TvP, as far as I can see, such posts have dropped dramatically, without any balance changes from Blizzard as a catalyst. Did Terrans figure it out or were such posts unwarranted?
TvZ masks the issue.
For one, if you are having 25% winrate in TvZ, the 40% TvP start to seem reasonable.
Also with Zergs taking all your MMR points, you start to play really sucky protoss.
On July 27 2012 21:46 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 21:41 monkybone wrote:
Giving terran the tech reactor from the campaign (a reactor which works for all units, e.g. 2 tanks at a time) as an upgrade from the fusion core or something could give terran the production they lack in the late game. Could be an upgrade on the reactors and tech labs themselves, like a transformation. That would be a bit too strong. TvP late game comes down to micro, that's it. Both sides have to micro like crazy to win. Only difference is Terrans have to be a little bit better about splitting vs Storms. I like the idea of adding some of the crazier stuff from the campaign to the multiplayer though.
You are right.. in order to win an engagement late game TvP, both sides have to micro like crazy compared to their standards..
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On July 27 2012 21:46 Havik_ wrote:
So how about those PvP finals :p It all ties back to the design of the race. When your race is centered around warpgate and Colossus, you're going to get a lot of gateway allins and mass Colossi.
Maybe Dustin Browder will take a look at Protoss once he's done fixing TvT.
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On July 27 2012 21:23 Province wrote:
Offtopic, but I remember a torrent of posts a few months back about TvP, as far as I can see, such posts have dropped dramatically, without any balance changes from Blizzard as a catalyst. Did Terrans figure it out or were such posts unwarranted?
No. The TvP issues weren't balance related. They were a gameplay complaint. The win rates were equal, but Terrans didn't like being forced to all in every game or get vaporized after the clock hits an arbitrary time. It's a style complaint.
These are legitimate concerns, but win rates are fine because these rushes are quite viable.
Then TvZ changed radically, and actual win rates dropped a lot. Terrans decided to ignore TvP because that was a very minor complaint in comparison. Terrans haven't really asked blizzard for anything and gotten it, so they're trying to take it one step at a time. TvP issues are not the main concern anymore.
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On July 27 2012 21:50 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 21:23 Province wrote:
Offtopic, but I remember a torrent of posts a few months back about TvP, as far as I can see, such posts have dropped dramatically, without any balance changes from Blizzard as a catalyst. Did Terrans figure it out or were such posts unwarranted? No. The TvP issues weren't balance related. They were a gameplay complaint. The win rates were equal, but Terrans didn't like being forced to all in every game or get vaporized after the clock hits an arbitrary time. It's a style complaint. These are legitimate concerns, but win rates are fine because these rushes are quite viable. Then TvZ changed radically, and actual win rates dropped a lot. Terrans decided to ignore TvP because that was a very minor complaint in comparison. Terrans haven't really asked blizzard for anything and gotten it, so they're trying to take it one step at a time. TvP issues are not the main concern anymore.
This and losing to vastly inferior players because the toss side of the matchup is notably easier and way more forgiving. I always cherish a good beatup by someone who is better than me, not by someone with half the apm.
User was warned for this post
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On July 27 2012 20:04 Osteriet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 17:58 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 27 2012 17:54 Osteriet wrote:
I guess somewhat of a fix would be to allow the production of terran to start at 200/200 and then halt at 99% until the supply was there.. But that would make higher tech units cruisers silly overpowere in lategame. Killing and army and facing 7 thors, 6 hellions, 4 vikings, 4 cruisers and 2 ravens!?? That would mean an investment into 10fac and 8starports. Thats 1800 gas excluding addons. Perhaps terran should actually benefit from their insanely expensive production?
This is not uncalled for in lategame vs a 4/5 base Terran that opened Mech and transitioned to Skyterran
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Problem: Sc2 Design is THE Problem. The higher the quality of the game we see, the more flaws/mistakes we see from sc2 design.
Solution: No idea, we should hope that HotS can solve some of those design flaws. I am sure WoL can't solve those, patches aren't able to fix it.
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On July 27 2012 21:50 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 21:23 Province wrote:
Offtopic, but I remember a torrent of posts a few months back about TvP, as far as I can see, such posts have dropped dramatically, without any balance changes from Blizzard as a catalyst. Did Terrans figure it out or were such posts unwarranted? No. The TvP issues weren't balance related. They were a gameplay complaint. The win rates were equal, but Terrans didn't like being forced to all in every game or get vaporized after the clock hits an arbitrary time. It's a style complaint. These are legitimate concerns, but win rates are fine because these rushes are quite viable. Then TvZ changed radically, and actual win rates dropped a lot. Terrans decided to ignore TvP because that was a very minor complaint in comparison. Terrans haven't really asked blizzard for anything and gotten it, so they're trying to take it one step at a time. TvP issues are not the main concern anymore.
Day[9] made a good daily a while back demonstrating how Terrans didn't need to WIN before the lategame hit, but just get an acceptable lead (I think his marker was getting a fourth base operational before the Protoss started their fourth?). Maybe an increased understanding that it's okay to just get ahead rather than straight-up win is what's at work.
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EPT
