On October 28 2014 05:21 JCoto wrote: Even if DPS is not on the top, what it is important to see there is one-shoting and focus firing. Then zoning gets really important.
Okay. So your group of Tempests is one shotting Vikings. They are also outnumbered vastly by the Vikings. And there are PDDs blocking half your Tempest shots.
Like I told the other guy, you're not talking from experience.
Just keeping them all together, focus firing, and zoning out Vikings/Corruptors/Other AA units is quite hard.
Keep in mind that Vikings have 9 range and Thors have 10 range and that Tempests do not deal bonus damage to either of these.
Yes, Tempests are hard to use. If it were as easy as you say (15 range LOLOLOLOL) we'd see them being played against every Swarm Host player. Instead very few players are comfortable both microing this composition and macroing behind it at the same time.
Most will opt to brute force it through Colossus pushes and Warp prism drops.
On October 28 2014 02:53 Foxxan wrote: The game needs a redesign. Especially protoss.
But seriously, all races needs a redesign.
Imo, terran going bio everygame is not the dull part. The dull part is that colossus are so freaking boring and ruins the gameplay. The fun part about RTS is when units have options. Where to move, where to attack, where to defend.
Those simple things can add so much. I would not be tired of tvp if those things were all game long. For terran and for protoss.
But the colossus makes the bio camp and wait for the right hardcounter.
About reaper, what is so good about this unit when it is so restricted to the opening phase purely. Saying this is good design makes no sense.
I don't get the point on accusing protoss of bad unit design, given that they use at least 2/3 of their units almost everygame, instead of the number of units you can count with one hand. What's more, you are saying that using almost every unit is dull, but using 5 out 15 as a terran isn't. If this was a discussion between android or apple, I will call you fanboy.
The bad designed units as protoss are in the air, as oracles are too strong early game and Fleet Beacon units (Tempest and Carrier) are almost useless. The Tempest serves as an overpowered lategame unit killer and the carrier is almost useless in high level, all both being really expensive to tech to. The other ones work fine and what's more, they are needed almost every game.
If you have stated that the protoss design is simple instead of bad, I would have simply told that you are right. Regarding design, protoss units are fare more simple as almost every unit has very limited usses and an assigned role. However, they work fine as a whole. Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best. However it's true that the units introduced in HOTS for Protoss are not very good designed. And what they have done to the Carrier is deplorable.
Make all terran units usable and then rework protoss if you want. I would start by nerfing Tempest damage in first pplace.
You just said the Tempest is almost useless, but you would start by nerfing it? I don't follow.
I actually wish we saw good Tempest play. It's actually a really hard unit to use correctly as it's fragile and does very little DPS (to regular targets). Its range also means that it requires babysitting or it will start charging into battle ahead of the rest of your army. So typically, you'll have Tempests, High Templar to protect from mass AA such as Vikings and Corruptors, an Oracle for Revelation so you have the full range of the Tempests available, and then stuff to protect your HT and Tempests such as a Colossus, some gateway units, etc.
It requires micro and good control and all those things that people complain that Protoss doesn't require enough.... and it's amazing to watch someone do it well. I know it's the hundredth time I mention this series but CJ Hero did an amazing job managing this composition in his IEM games vs. Snute.
tempests are hard to use because they have such a big range...like what? :D the hard thing about tempest is the focus fire you need to do with them while microing your other stuff. the range makes them obv a lot easier to use and not harder...
also tempests are fragile? they have one if not THE biggest hp per supply in the whole game. even ultralisks have a lot less hp per supply than tempests and those are air units.
the tempest is just a pretty badly designed unit that was introduced to do two things: making BLs useless and make PvP more than colossus wars. such a siege unit SHOULD be fragile and even slower since its an air unit...it just isnt. tempest are really broken its just protoss cant get to it in reasonable numbers in an easy way so that balances protoss but not the unit. its kind of like mass raven + support like BC etc. is broken in TvZ its just really hard for T to get to that composition.
Tempests are hard to use because of their range, yes:
-Because they have long range, they will start to acquire targets on their own and drift away, meaning you need to pull them back. -Because they have low DPS, target firing is very important thus you need to keep them in place and shooting at the specific target you want. -Because they shoot further than their range, you need to constantly make sure that you have observers/Revelation active so they can see what you want them to hit. As soon as an observer dies or Revelation wears off they will just start moving forward towards what they were shooting at.
-I say they are weak not because they have low HP but because they have low DPS and everything that can hit them has significatly higher DPS (vikings, marines, Hydras, etc.). Thus they don't kill what's attacking them fast enough to survive.
I feel like your comments are those of someone who 1) doesn't play protoss 2) has never played mass Tempest outside of silly team games or monobattles 3) have never watched a professional Starcraft 2 game with Tempests where the guy going Tempests wasn't already hugely ahead.
so you say that they are hard to use because you have to focus fire and have to micro your other units like observers which is basically what i said. tempests for themselves are pretty easy to use and no their range still doesnt makes them harder to use since its super easy to hide behind colossus and HT with your 13 range tempests. its much harder to control your HT to protect your tempest and colossus vs viper for example but tempests themselves...not really.
also you said they are fragile...which they arent..they are the exact opposite. its flying 4 supply ultralisks with 13 range.
also lol @marines and hydras have higher DPS. they are also 1 hit lategame vs colossus + storm. no one said go tempest only and win...its just once you have colossus HT tempest archon + some voids or carriers and a MS you basically cant lose (and yes thats really hard to get to like my mentioned raven BC ghost + support).
tempest are just a really bad designed superhardcounter to BLs, BCs and colossus. it works fine for PvP imo but in ZvP and PvT we almost never see BLs or BCs again which is sad since its always bad to take out units and different playstyles out of the game.
blizz shouldnt fix bad designed units like BLs or colossus with other bad designed units. instead they should fix BLs (remove broodlings and buff BLs in another way) and completely rework the colossus.
On October 28 2014 06:04 Decendos wrote: So you say that they are hard to use because you have to focus fire and have to micro your other units like observers which is basically what i said. tempests for themselves are pretty easy to use and no their range still doesnt makes them harder to use since its super easy to hide behind colossus and HT with your 13 range tempests. its much harder to control your HT to protect your tempest and colossus vs viper for example but tempests themselves...not really.
Nobody is arguing with you that it's hard to focus fire some Tempests. What I'm telling you is that it's hard to focus fire some Tempests AND make sure they stay in the same place, AND make sure they have vision, AND protect them from AA with High Templar AND also macro at the same time. These are all things that are required when you decide to go Tempests. So when I say Tempests are hard to use, all of those things are implied. No individual unit in this game is hard to use, per se.
On October 28 2014 06:04 Decendos wrote: also you said they are fragile...which they arent..they are the exact opposite. its flying 4 supply ultralisks with 13 range.
You said this, then I responded with a counter argument, then you just posted the same thing again. So I will respond to it again. HP is not the issue. The issue is that they do very little DPS and therefore other things kill them much faster than they kill other things (other things here being Vikings, Marines, Hydras, Thors, Corruptors, even Widow Mines). This is why you never see pure mass tempest... they RELY on other units to keep them safe because alone, they are quite fragile. And because you need a big number of them to actually start hurting your opponent, your army that protects them is quite small.
On October 28 2014 06:04 Decendos wrote: also lol @marines and hydras have higher DPS.
On October 28 2014 06:04 Decendos wrote: they are also 1 hit lategame vs colossus + storm. no one said go tempest only and win...its just once you have colossus HT tempest archon + some voids or carriers and a MS you basically cant lose (and yes thats really hard to get to like my mentioned raven BC ghost + support).
Yes you can lose. You can absolutely lose:
EDIT - I'm at work so I don't have time to look around for PvT vods. But I can assure you that this composition is 100% beatable. It has been done before, in tournaments and on the ladder.
EDIT2 - This feels like a very TheDwF post hahaha except he would have gotten you the other vods as well
I agree with DinoMight, Tempest are not as easy as you might think.
Vision, target fire, positioning are all things you have to keep up with. It's a very expensive and demanding army that CANNOT be caught out of position even once.
Who was talking about tempest efficiency vs vikings? Vikings are the only air unit wchich struggles agaisnt them because they have low HP and cant be heavily affected by archons and storms. Mass Corruptors + Viper doesn't even bother about tempest damage in lategame, given the map advantage that usually the zerg player has. Voids destroy them.
I was not saying that they are easy. They are very strong hardcounters.I was talking about how they have big damage output vs massive air, which makes them kill some strategies. Some tempest micro can destroy a little group of massive air who is retiring from the battle without a problem. BC lack of mobility, and even if there are som PDDs to cover, BC can almost never reach Tempests to yamato them without important loses. At least zerg has some abducts to zone.
Tempests can do very well in mixed lategame armies vs static armies , specially mech. Even in lategame, PDD is not that a big issue as feedbacks destroy them easily. Their problem is at the easiness they take high tier air out.
On October 28 2014 08:38 JCoto wrote: Who was talking about tempest efficiency vs vikings? Vikings are the only air unit wchich struggles agaisnt them because they have low HP and cant be heavily affected by archons and storms. Mass Corruptors + Viper doesn't even bother about tempest damage in lategame, given the map advantage that usually the zerg player has. Voids destroy them.
I was not saying that they are easy. They are very strong hardcounters.I was talking about how they have big damage output vs massive air, which makes them kill some strategies. Some tempest micro can destroy a little group of massive air who is retiring from the battle without a problem. BC lack of mobility, and even if there are som PDDs to cover, BC can almost never reach Tempests to yamato them without important loses. At least zerg has some abducts to zone.
Tempests can do very well in mixed lategame armies vs static armies , specially mech. Even in lategame, PDD is not that a big issue as feedbacks destroy them easily. Their problem is at the easiness they take high tier air out.
Here is what you actually said:
On October 28 2014 05:21 JCoto wrote: Having a flyer Siege Tank with 450 total HP that has 15 range and big damage projectile (which means very low part of the damage is mitigated) that kills massive air without almost effort its not the best desing, as states Decendos. You won't see many BL or Heavy mech (Tanks, Thors, BC) against protoss with that range/damage values. It's pretty basic logic. A little ball of units (6-8) is enough to two shot really important units while zoning them. Even if DPS is not on the top, what it is important to see there is one-shoting and focus firing. Then zoning gets really important.
I actually took the time to explain why having 6-8 Tempests in your army is a total PITA and how hard they are to use effectively while still doing everything else correctly and protecting them.
The games don't just go "oh, he made Brood Lords, let me make 6-8 Tempests and win." The other player has supporting units the same way that you do.
Re: BattleCruisers... Tempests were created as a counter to Colossi and Brood Lords. It's unfortunate that the unit also hard counters the BC, but you can just NOT make BCs if your opponent is going Tempests. How about that?
Oh ffs yet again I find myself in 'Team Dino', getting too much of a habit
Yes it is difficult to control those compositions, there are a lot of Protoss compositions that become hard to control the more casters and the more divergent move-speeds and range you have to factor in.
For all Terran masterrace people harp on about how hard it is to micro, microing MMM isn't that difficult, it's all twitch reactions and muscle memory. However, microing MMMVG is hard as fuck, because you have units that move at different speeds, you have to continually reposition on the fly, move vikings over cliffspace if possible etc.
Likewise, Zergs that go a lot of Queens/Ultra/Viper or even the dreaded Swarmhost turtling and control it well are to be applauded.
I don't believe I'm on my own when I say some compositions are far, far harder to control properly than people actually realise, or are willing to admit to if it's part of a race/playstyle they don't like.
isclaimer - I am referring to aggressive posturing, i.e non-turtling useage of these kind of compositions.
On October 28 2014 10:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Oh ffs yet again I find myself in 'Team Dino', getting too much of a habit
Yes it is difficult to control those compositions, there are a lot of Protoss compositions that become hard to control the more casters and the more divergent move-speeds and range you have to factor in.
For all Terran masterrace people harp on about how hard it is to micro, microing MMM isn't that difficult, it's all twitch reactions and muscle memory. However, microing MMMVG is hard as fuck, because you have units that move at different speeds, you have to continually reposition on the fly, move vikings over cliffspace if possible etc.
Likewise, Zergs that go a lot of Queens/Ultra/Viper or even the dreaded Swarmhost turtling and control it well are to be applauded.
I don't believe I'm on my own when I say some compositions are far, far harder to control properly than people actually realise, or are willing to admit to if it's part of a race/playstyle they don't like.
isclaimer - I am referring to aggressive posturing, i.e non-turtling useage of these kind of compositions.
As someone who finds Protoss the hardest race to play i don't really get it either.
Re: BattleCruisers... Tempests were created as a counter to Colossi and Brood Lords. It's unfortunate that the unit also hard counters the BC, but you can just NOT make BCs if your opponent is going Tempests. How about that?
The only problem with that I have (and were talking REALLY lategame PvT right now) is that Tempest Collosus Templar Observer /fodder/ has no possible solution but mass Ghost Viking Scan hope there is no obs. Ravens and PDD are too vulnerable to Feedback to pose a threat to Tempest.
But this situation roughly never occurs, so we can live with that :D
On October 28 2014 10:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Oh ffs yet again I find myself in 'Team Dino', getting too much of a habit
Yes it is difficult to control those compositions, there are a lot of Protoss compositions that become hard to control the more casters and the more divergent move-speeds and range you have to factor in.
For all Terran masterrace people harp on about how hard it is to micro, microing MMM isn't that difficult, it's all twitch reactions and muscle memory. However, microing MMMVG is hard as fuck, because you have units that move at different speeds, you have to continually reposition on the fly, move vikings over cliffspace if possible etc.
Likewise, Zergs that go a lot of Queens/Ultra/Viper or even the dreaded Swarmhost turtling and control it well are to be applauded.
I don't believe I'm on my own when I say some compositions are far, far harder to control properly than people actually realise, or are willing to admit to if it's part of a race/playstyle they don't like.
isclaimer - I am referring to aggressive posturing, i.e non-turtling useage of these kind of compositions.
As someone who finds Protoss the hardest race to play i don't really get it either.
huh wut?
Mechanically, certainly not. To learn basic strategy, yep, Protoss is extremely fragile if certain timings aren't hit. If you've got the basics down? hardly...
On October 28 2014 10:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Oh ffs yet again I find myself in 'Team Dino', getting too much of a habit
Yes it is difficult to control those compositions, there are a lot of Protoss compositions that become hard to control the more casters and the more divergent move-speeds and range you have to factor in.
For all Terran masterrace people harp on about how hard it is to micro, microing MMM isn't that difficult, it's all twitch reactions and muscle memory. However, microing MMMVG is hard as fuck, because you have units that move at different speeds, you have to continually reposition on the fly, move vikings over cliffspace if possible etc.
Likewise, Zergs that go a lot of Queens/Ultra/Viper or even the dreaded Swarmhost turtling and control it well are to be applauded.
I don't believe I'm on my own when I say some compositions are far, far harder to control properly than people actually realise, or are willing to admit to if it's part of a race/playstyle they don't like.
isclaimer - I am referring to aggressive posturing, i.e non-turtling useage of these kind of compositions.
As someone who finds Protoss the hardest race to play i don't really get it either.
huh wut?
Mechanically, certainly not. To learn basic strategy, yep, Protoss is extremely fragile if certain timings aren't hit. If you've got the basics down? hardly...
Let me speak plainly for you then.
The physical act of playing the race is more difficult for me than for Terran.
Difficulty of execution is subjective. I have more difficulty executing the mechanical aspects of Protoss and have an easier time executing the mechanical aspects of Terran.
On October 28 2014 10:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Oh ffs yet again I find myself in 'Team Dino', getting too much of a habit
Yes it is difficult to control those compositions, there are a lot of Protoss compositions that become hard to control the more casters and the more divergent move-speeds and range you have to factor in.
For all Terran masterrace people harp on about how hard it is to micro, microing MMM isn't that difficult, it's all twitch reactions and muscle memory. However, microing MMMVG is hard as fuck, because you have units that move at different speeds, you have to continually reposition on the fly, move vikings over cliffspace if possible etc.
Likewise, Zergs that go a lot of Queens/Ultra/Viper or even the dreaded Swarmhost turtling and control it well are to be applauded.
I don't believe I'm on my own when I say some compositions are far, far harder to control properly than people actually realise, or are willing to admit to if it's part of a race/playstyle they don't like.
isclaimer - I am referring to aggressive posturing, i.e non-turtling useage of these kind of compositions.
As someone who finds Protoss the hardest race to play i don't really get it either.
huh wut?
Mechanically, certainly not. To learn basic strategy, yep, Protoss is extremely fragile if certain timings aren't hit. If you've got the basics down? hardly...
Let me speak plainly for you then.
The physical act of playing the race is more difficult for me than for Terran.
Difficulty of execution is subjective. I have more difficulty executing the mechanical aspects of Protoss and have an easier time executing the mechanical aspects of Terran.
On October 28 2014 10:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Oh ffs yet again I find myself in 'Team Dino', getting too much of a habit
Yes it is difficult to control those compositions, there are a lot of Protoss compositions that become hard to control the more casters and the more divergent move-speeds and range you have to factor in.
For all Terran masterrace people harp on about how hard it is to micro, microing MMM isn't that difficult, it's all twitch reactions and muscle memory. However, microing MMMVG is hard as fuck, because you have units that move at different speeds, you have to continually reposition on the fly, move vikings over cliffspace if possible etc.
Likewise, Zergs that go a lot of Queens/Ultra/Viper or even the dreaded Swarmhost turtling and control it well are to be applauded.
I don't believe I'm on my own when I say some compositions are far, far harder to control properly than people actually realise, or are willing to admit to if it's part of a race/playstyle they don't like.
isclaimer - I am referring to aggressive posturing, i.e non-turtling useage of these kind of compositions.
As someone who finds Protoss the hardest race to play i don't really get it either.
huh wut?
Mechanically, certainly not. To learn basic strategy, yep, Protoss is extremely fragile if certain timings aren't hit. If you've got the basics down? hardly...
Let me speak plainly for you then.
The physical act of playing the race is more difficult for me than for Terran.
Difficulty of execution is subjective. I have more difficulty executing the mechanical aspects of Protoss and have an easier time executing the mechanical aspects of Terran.
Hmm, interesting...
Oh well, everybody's different I suppose :D
The problem is that my muscle memory learns faster than my tactical memory. So I can figure out even paced rhythm based micro like splits and kiting, but not the clunkier unit selection based micro that is needed for things like Sentries, Templars, and blink.
Because of this, things like mouse accuracy is a problem for me--which makes landing forcefields difficult, but doesn't affect kiting micro.
I know its supposed to be easier, but I'm too much of a scrub.
On October 28 2014 06:04 Decendos wrote: So you say that they are hard to use because you have to focus fire and have to micro your other units like observers which is basically what i said. tempests for themselves are pretty easy to use and no their range still doesnt makes them harder to use since its super easy to hide behind colossus and HT with your 13 range tempests. its much harder to control your HT to protect your tempest and colossus vs viper for example but tempests themselves...not really.
Nobody is arguing with you that it's hard to focus fire some Tempests. What I'm telling you is that it's hard to focus fire some Tempests AND make sure they stay in the same place, AND make sure they have vision, AND protect them from AA with High Templar AND also macro at the same time. These are all things that are required when you decide to go Tempests. So when I say Tempests are hard to use, all of those things are implied. No individual unit in this game is hard to use, per se.
On October 28 2014 06:04 Decendos wrote: also you said they are fragile...which they arent..they are the exact opposite. its flying 4 supply ultralisks with 13 range.
You said this, then I responded with a counter argument, then you just posted the same thing again. So I will respond to it again. HP is not the issue. The issue is that they do very little DPS and therefore other things kill them much faster than they kill other things (other things here being Vikings, Marines, Hydras, Thors, Corruptors, even Widow Mines). This is why you never see pure mass tempest... they RELY on other units to keep them safe because alone, they are quite fragile. And because you need a big number of them to actually start hurting your opponent, your army that protects them is quite small.
On October 28 2014 06:04 Decendos wrote: they are also 1 hit lategame vs colossus + storm. no one said go tempest only and win...its just once you have colossus HT tempest archon + some voids or carriers and a MS you basically cant lose (and yes thats really hard to get to like my mentioned raven BC ghost + support).
EDIT - I'm at work so I don't have time to look around for PvT vods. But I can assure you that this composition is 100% beatable. It has been done before, in tournaments and on the ladder.
EDIT2 - This feels like a very TheDwF post hahaha except he would have gotten you the other vods as well
Agree with all this.
Terran doesn't have choices outside of MMMGV? Fine by me, because Terran has a lot of options in terms of how they choose to use that MMMGV. There's a lot more to the game than composition. I can think of 5-6 clearly defined playstyles that all use MMM that are completely different from one another.
Looking through all of the recent Terran posts and trying to understand their point:
If the argument is about Terran not having options other than MMMGV- you are correct, and the game is not any worse for it.
If the argument is specifically that Terran cannot go Battlecruisers because of Tempest- You are correct. This tells us nothing about balance. Honestly Terran wouldn't go BC anyway outside of weird split map scenarios.
If the argument is that 2-3 Tempest are really, really good at forcing Terran to engage into Protoss on the Protoss player's terms- You are correct, but really look at the game and see if Protoss didn't already have a game winning advantage by then. If we see Terran's start to lose game to Collosi / HT / Tempest deathballs when they're not behind, this is worth discussing, but not until then.
As for Reapers, they fulfill a niche roll sure but they fulfill that niche roll very well and it's vital vP and vZ. I personally would love to see an upgrade that gives back the bonus vs light /buildings damage and speed they had since I used to use a group of Reapers to deal with Zealot / DT drops / warp-ins in late game TvP, but I dont think it's necessary for balance, and Terran has options to deal with those already.
Although from a balance perspective I think its fine (for the most part cough # tvp allins prior to patch) that some races have rather limited option in composition in Starcraft coming from a background in Red alert 3 an RTS where literally every unit is viable or semi viable in competitive play and every faction in every matchup has a tremendous number of openings.(excluding the empire vs empire tengu spam fest XD) To the extent that not much was really considered to be cheesy since there was not really a standard way to play the game. I wish that more of the units where viable in this game even if it created imbalance. RA3 was not super balanced but because every faction had rather stupidly op stuff the game was really fun no matter what faction you played and you rarely felt limited in strategy (coming from a random RA3 player with ladder peak of 300). I find myself in starcraft focusing alot more on subtle variation in playstyle and timings rather then big swings in my unit composition and gameplay based on how I open and how I choose to respond to my opponent's opening. This is fine chess has had the same pieces and board starts for hundreds of years and is still interesting. but I think starcraft would have a lot more potential for innovative builds and strategies if more units were viable and not just for specific cheesy/allin/counter plays. Even if it made the game more volatile this would be a move in the right direction, since at least to some of us having a ton of unit comps that behave in very different ways makes for a fun rts experience. I wish blizzard would go a bit crazy sometimes with their unit ballance just to open up the metagame especially in tvp which does not look substantially different from when the game was released to be honest.
The thing that to me makes comparisons with other RTS games difficult, is that very, very few of those games have been grinded out and really really explored like SC and its predecessor have been.
On October 28 2014 12:08 Wombat_NI wrote: The thing that to me makes comparisons with other RTS games difficult, is that very, very few of those games have been grinded out and really really explored like SC and its predecessor have been.
This. If RA3 or other RTS games were played nearly as competitively as SC or SC2 are, within a few months all the OP strategies would be found and abused until the developer fixed them.
On October 28 2014 10:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Oh ffs yet again I find myself in 'Team Dino', getting too much of a habit
If there's room for more, I think I need some too
On October 28 2014 10:22 Wombat_NI wrote: For all Terran masterrace people harp on about how hard it is to micro, microing MMM isn't that difficult, it's all twitch reactions and muscle memory. However, microing MMMVG is hard as fuck, because you have units that move at different speeds, you have to continually reposition on the fly, move vikings over cliffspace if possible etc.
Likewise, Zergs that go a lot of Queens/Ultra/Viper or even the dreaded Swarmhost turtling and control it well are to be applauded.
And on this, including the terran part, even as anti-terran-biased as I am, I can only wholeheartedly agree with everything. Basically, from the moment you have spellcasters/units (*expensive* units) that move at different speeds, that game becomes exponentially harder to micro-manage. And those who manage it are the actual best, no matter the race. Remember when infestor speed got 'nerfed' in 1.3.3 but that this was actually a buff for zerg? That's why.
Different units at different speeds that require different kinds of control to be effective, that's where the really good micro players shine. And this does not include an MMM ball with the occasional marine split. Not unless marines had an attack animation delay like most (every?) other unit in the game. (this was the mandatory "fuck the terran race design" portion of any post of mine).
Tempests are not an auto-win unit. Templars aren't either. Nor are DTs. phoenixes, ravens, ... not even mutas. Maybe marines, but mostly with medivacs. And stim+combat shields. And ideally with mines/tanks around. So no, not even marines are one single unit that can single-handedly win games on its own. And they're probably the prime candidate for this category.
Microing units that require *very* different types of micro-management is not as easy as looking at their stats and deciding that they're OP.
tl;dr: long live dino. Can't remember any posts from him that I disagreed with. Any other opinions I may have expressed in this post are my own
On October 28 2014 08:38 JCoto wrote: Who was talking about tempest efficiency vs vikings? Vikings are the only air unit wchich struggles agaisnt them because they have low HP and cant be heavily affected by archons and storms. Mass Corruptors + Viper doesn't even bother about tempest damage in lategame, given the map advantage that usually the zerg player has. Voids destroy them.
I was not saying that they are easy. They are very strong hardcounters.I was talking about how they have big damage output vs massive air, which makes them kill some strategies. Some tempest micro can destroy a little group of massive air who is retiring from the battle without a problem. BC lack of mobility, and even if there are som PDDs to cover, BC can almost never reach Tempests to yamato them without important loses. At least zerg has some abducts to zone.
Tempests can do very well in mixed lategame armies vs static armies , specially mech. Even in lategame, PDD is not that a big issue as feedbacks destroy them easily. Their problem is at the easiness they take high tier air out.
On October 28 2014 05:21 JCoto wrote: Having a flyer Siege Tank with 450 total HP that has 15 range and big damage projectile (which means very low part of the damage is mitigated) that kills massive air without almost effort its not the best desing, as states Decendos. You won't see many BL or Heavy mech (Tanks, Thors, BC) against protoss with that range/damage values. It's pretty basic logic. A little ball of units (6-8) is enough to two shot really important units while zoning them. Even if DPS is not on the top, what it is important to see there is one-shoting and focus firing. Then zoning gets really important.
I actually took the time to explain why having 6-8 Tempests in your army is a total PITA and how hard they are to use effectively while still doing everything else correctly and protecting them.
The games don't just go "oh, he made Brood Lords, let me make 6-8 Tempests and win." The other player has supporting units the same way that you do.
Re: BattleCruisers... Tempests were created as a counter to Colossi and Brood Lords. It's unfortunate that the unit also hard counters the BC, but you can just NOT make BCs if your opponent is going Tempests. How about that?
I make BC's as counter response to tempest, Yamato just annihilates everything, add in a few PDD's and tempest don't do anything to your BC's anymore.
EPT
except he would have gotten you the other vods as well
isclaimer - I am referring to aggressive posturing, i.e non-turtling useage of these kind of compositions.
