EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1173
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 27 2014 22:46 TokO wrote: That's the thing though, Terran already has a very flexible and a potent pool of harassing units. Why try and force another unit into that role? Terran players asked for a better early-game scout, and they got it in the reaper. I didn't mean to imply that you meant outright buffing the reaper. I was aware that the suggestions going around involved some rework that wouldn't necessarily change the balance in the game. What I meant to say was that, with respect to several points; 1. Original purpose (early-game scout), 2. Opportunity costs (When is a reaper a better choice than anything else in the Terran arsenal), 3. Balance (How do we solve 2. without creating scaling issues with regards to early-midgame all-ins); changing the reaper becomes really difficult. I'm just trying to explain that most conceivable ways that we could change the reaper, would probably lead to Terran's whining over a bunch of unscoutable all-ins. Some Terran's already do, even with the reaper. I'm not saying it's impossible, I might be wrong. I think Terran player's should voice their opinion on whether they would like to have it changed. I feel like the Reaper is one of those units that occupy a specific niche, and that's really good. It doesn't do a lot in straight up combat, but it offers so much in terms of information and in terms of setting up the game in favour of the Terran. You make good points, but I do think you're being a little over-cautious! I would definitely prefer to see this hypothetical t2/3 Reaper being mixed in as part of a standard army composition and not just as a harassing unit. Terrans don't need dedicated harass units, they need either stuff to add on to the bioball, or a different way of playing the bioball. Let's say we don't touch the Reaper's stats at all. We give them a 150/150 upgrade that takes 60 seconds to research and gives them an ability that mixes their old D8 Charge ability with the Raven's HSM. The Reaper attaches a sticky-bomb to a unit from 4 range away. The target unit turns red (or something). In 2 seconds, the bomb explodes dealing (for example) 45 damage to the target + some AOE. It could work as an alternative counter to Immortals and HTs, and Blink might work as effective counter-micro. In TvZ it could offer another alternative to dealing with banes on creep. The point wouldn't be to make one or the other play obsolete, it would be to give Terran options so that those who prefer to micro Ghosts/WMs can micro Ghosts/WMs, those who prefer to micro Reapers can micro Reapers. Different upgrades, different mechanics, different playstyles. More variety. In this example, if these Reapers are still too weak, we could give them another upgrade that boosts their stats. Marines and Zerglings both have two upgrades, no reason Reapers couldn't have two as well. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 27 2014 23:23 DinoMight wrote: What's all this about Reapers? Seems like there are so many bigger problems to deal with at the moment. Reaper does its job just fine as an early game scouting/harass unit. Just for funsies in team games maybe they could give it back its building damage, upgradeable at the Tech Lab with Factory requirement or something. I roll Terran like 90% of my team games so that could be fun  .But generally, I'm a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" way of game design. As I see it, the biggest problem right now is Protoss needing to open Colossus vs. both Terran and Zerg. Vs. Terran because Widow Mines + Bio and vs. Zerg because the new buffed Hydras just require it (and there's no infrastructure required for Hydras, beyond the Den really, so they can just show up whenever if you don't). Because P units have clearer counters than T and Z, Protoss should be the race that tries to deny scouting and force a reaction from their opponents through tech choices but lately playing P feels like it's either very all-in (and coinflippy) or extremely reactionary. Meanwhile, Z and T have very good all-purpose units like the Marine/Marauder/Ling/Roach/Hydra but they're the ones forcing P into certain decisions. #Truth right here. Reapers are already a good design. They can be very aggressive, they can be part of all-ins, they are part of standard play, and they are even part of greedy play. Few units can be used by so many playstyles as the reaper. That makes it a very very good unit. Complaining that reapers are not Battlecruisers or Siege Tanks is very very silly. For example, Battlecruiser is only useful in the late game, why can't we make it a cheap unit that can be built from the barracks/command center? We can't because its a late game unit and making it useful in the early game is silly. Reapers are an early game unit, so its useful in the early game but not the late game. There is nothing wrong with that. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 27 2014 23:36 Thieving Magpie wrote: #Truth right here. Reapers are already a good design. They can be very aggressive, they can be part of all-ins, they are part of standard play, and they are even part of greedy play. Few units can be used by so many playstyles as the reaper. That makes it a very very good unit. To put things in perspective... if the Reaper is a well designed unit because it can do all of those things... Does that make the Marine the best designed RTS unit ever of all time ever made, including alternate realities and parallel universes? Ever? Of all time? Because it can do all those things. And more. Throughout the entire game. Whether you build one as a scout or two hundred as your army or fifty just to harass. For example, Battlecruiser is only useful in the late game, why can't we make it a cheap unit that can be built from the barracks/command center? We can't because its a late game unit and making it useful in the early game is silly. Reapers are an early game unit, so its useful in the early game but not the late game. There is nothing wrong with that. Yeah, let's make the Sentry and the Roach useless after the 8-minute mark. Then you've got a deal. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On October 27 2014 23:40 pure.Wasted wrote: To put things in perspective... if the Reaper is a well designed unit because it can do all of those things... Does that make the Marine the best designed RTS unit ever of all time ever made, including alternate realities and parallel universes? Ever? Of all time? Because it can do all those things. And more. Throughout the entire game. Whether you build one as a scout or two hundred as your army or fifty just to harass. Yeah, let's make the Sentry and the Roach useless after the 8-minute mark. Then you've got a deal. Marines are terrible early game scouts. Without Reapers to check for Protoss tech/expansions and zerg allins Terran would do pretty poorly compared to how they are now. And TvT would become WoL PvP. There's a reason that Polt Marines are a fairly well designed unit in theory because they can be controlled correctly and can serve as the backbone of an army (you will eventually need support units though, otherwise you'll get wrecked going pure Marine). So their purpose is clear and they do exactly what you want them to. One can argue that they're too strong and require splash damage counters that are too strong but then that will turn into an argument about Warpgate and the Larva mechanic so you can't look at the Marine in a bubble. Sentries are 50/100 (very expensive) and FF loses effectiveness in the game as the fights shift from ramps and base entrances to the middle of the map which is more open (if you don't believe me look up heat maps for game activity over time). Roaches are 2 supply and while they're cost effective, they take up too much supply to be useful in the late game for Zerg. So they too lose efficiency as the game progresses simply because they die to quickly to superior tech and you can't make enough of them to compensate. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 27 2014 23:47 DinoMight wrote: Marines are terrible early game scouts. Without Reapers to check for Protoss tech/expansions and zerg allins Terran would do pretty poorly compared to how they are now. Sentries are 50/100 (very expensive) and FF loses effectiveness in the game as the fights shift from ramps and base entrances to the middle of the map which is more open (if you don't believe me look up heat maps for game activity over time). Roaches are 2 supply and while they're cost effective, they take up too much supply to be useful in the late game for Zerg. So they too lose efficiency as the game progresses simply because they die to quickly to superior tech and you can't make enough of them to compensate. Let me rephrase. For your point to be remotely sensible, a Protoss in PvT should make one Sentry per game. And that Sentry should stop being useful after 10 minutes. No Guardian Shield. A Zerg in ZvT should make no more than three Roaches. Those Roaches will all be dead by 10 minutes and they will not be replaced. The end. SC2 is a strategy game. Strategy means options. Most of the options a player has available to them come from the unit pool they have access to. Terran has 14 non-worker units. Of those, 7 do not appear in a vast majority of TvPs. Protoss has 17 non-worker units. Of those, 4 do not appear in a vast majority of PvTs. Terran effectively has 7 units to mix and match in TvP. Protoss effectively has 13 units in PvT. Do you see how this might be an unideal situation for a strategy game? The Reaper did his job for 30 seconds, and then for the rest of the game all he does is sit in the Barracks filling up a spot that could have gone to another unit that would be giving the Terran player options. There are two ways to solve this problem: add new units without touching the Reaper, or give the Reaper something to do. We know that Blizzard is reluctant to add more units to the game in HOTS, and that's understandable. They don't want to turn this into Total Annihilation. But if they're not adding units and the units that we have aren't becoming more useful, then we're still stuck with 7 vs. 13. OK, meta shifts. 8 vs. 12. That's still terrible! That's a 2:3 ratio! That's not what a well designed game looks like! If the Reaper's not pulling double duty, fine, give Terran 6 new units for TvP and I guarantee you that this topic won't come up nearly as often. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On October 28 2014 00:04 pure.Wasted wrote: Let me rephrase. For your point to be remotely sensible, a Protoss in PvT should make one Sentry per game. And that Sentry should stop being useful after 10 minutes. No Guardian Shield. A Zerg in ZvT should make no more than three Roaches. Those Roaches will all be dead by 10 minutes and they will not be replaced. The end. SC2 is a strategy game. Strategy means options. Most of the options a player has available to them come from the unit pool they have access to. Terran has 14 non-worker units. Of those, 7 do not appear in a vast majority of TvPs. Protoss has 17 non-worker units. Of those, 4 do not appear in a vast majority of PvTs. Terran effectively has 7 units to mix and match in TvP. Protoss effectively has 13 units in PvT. Do you see how this might be an unideal situation for a strategy game? The Reaper did his job for 30 seconds, and then for the rest of the game all he does is sit in the Barracks filling up a spot that could have gone to another unit that would be giving the Terran player options. There are two ways to solve this problem: add new units without touching the Reaper, or give the Reaper something to do. We know that Blizzard is reluctant to add more units to the game in HOTS, and that's understandable. They don't want to turn this into Total Annihilation. But if they're not adding units and the units that we have aren't becoming more useful, then we're still stuck with 7 vs. 13. OK, meta shifts. 8 vs. 12. That's still terrible! That's a 2:3 ratio! That's not what a well designed game looks like! If the Reaper's not pulling double duty, fine, give Terran 6 new units for TvP and I guarantee you that this topic won't come up nearly as often. You're thinking about this a little too "tit for tat." How about the Oracle, for example? Typically a guy going Oracle only makes one and after a certain amount of time it can't really harass minerals anymore, just fly around scouting and casting revelation. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 28 2014 00:07 DinoMight wrote: You're thinking about this a little too "tit for tat." How about the Oracle, for example? Typically a guy going Oracle only makes one and after a certain amount of time it can't really harass minerals anymore, just fly around scouting and casting revelation. The Oracle is an awfully designed unit. It's barely a unit at all, it's more like a podgehodge of random different things Protoss needed in HOTS. "How about a unit that's best away from the deathball?" Check! "How about a way to give Stargate openings detection?" Check! "How about a way for Protoss to force reactions and harass?" Check! I absolutely would love to see it overhauled. But the thing is, as bad as the Oracle is, it still offers a lot more options for the Protoss than the Reaper does for a Terran. Aggressive openings, Stargate openings, 3 Oracle all-ins. A Protoss can pick and choose which one fits his style best. There is no 8-Reaper all in in TvP. There is no 5-Reaper pressure build. You just get the Reaper and then you just scout with it and then that's it. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 28 2014 00:17 Grumbels wrote: I don't think it's so terrible that units have a niche use. Reapers are in a much better place now than they used to be in WoL. You can use them early game to scout and do various things. Then you stop making them because literally every other unit would do a better job. There are so many other strategy games where units have some early game purpose and then stop being useful, nobody ought to think that those games are objectively bad. Warcraft 3, for instance, has T1 units become irrelevant in many scenarios. Yeah, but it's not just the Reaper, is it? Most of Terran mech and air isn't viable in TvP. It's 7 units versus 13, man. That's not a couple of units, that's almost twice as many! Make mech and air viable, give Terran bio something to tech to (BCs? Banshees? Ravens?) so that it isn't so hopelessly outmatched by Colossi the longer a game goes on, and maybe people won't be complaining about the Reaper taking up that Barracks slot. I won't speak to TvZ as it's in an obvious state of upheaval right now. Mech is quasi-viable and might still become totally viable, or it might get figured out and be reserved for the occasional all-in. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On October 28 2014 00:17 Grumbels wrote: I don't think it's so terrible that units have a niche use. Reapers are in a much better place now than they used to be in WoL. You can use them early game to scout and do various things. Then you stop making them because literally every other unit would do a better job. There are so many other strategy games where units have some early game purpose and then stop being useful, nobody ought to think that those games are objectively bad. Warcraft 3, for instance, has T1 units become irrelevant in many scenarios. In Warcraft every T1 unit was usefull at least for sometime later. Orc: Grunts where still usefull with Raider&SW due to the Grunt Upgrade of T2. Trolls were usefull cheap and weak aa if you bats were not awable or you used a rare mass docs trolls strat. Catas were allways usefull against no armored units like mass dryads, mass human casters. Human: Footys, you need em very long time, due to the fast expand you stick very long on t1. Rifleman sucked, you had waterelements. Maybe if you go MK on echo ille and enemy choose to go one base T2 Air while you got your normal T1 2 base play. poor designed unit NE: Archer: Needed till dryads are out, at least some. Hunts: 2 AoW mass hunts strat. Glave thrower: nearly unused in prof. gaming, but every race needed its siege weapon. Poor design. UD: Ghoul: Woodworking fighter, usefull for mass ghouls, usefull during early till mid. Fiends: Your core unit of all time. But W3 tft is not like SC II: Starcraft uses its units as glas cannons, they die fast and deal high dmg, while Warcraft units tend to live much much longer, thus with a larger focus on the micro while the macro was nearly not existing in terms of mass production and upgrades and and and. When we talk about the usless reaper after his scout, we can also talk about useless oracle, bad designed immortal, wasted resource called Mothership or dying starships called Carrier and Battlecruiser. The Reaper is not the only bad designed and usless unit after certain time or during the whole game If someone talks about fixing the problem with the reaper making the game more watchable, more interesting, you cant come up with "oh yeah, we cant use carrier and oracle" Damn you are right, but better bring up solutions for these units. It is not right that units are worthless scrap of minerals and gas never used or only used 1 minute and then never used again. You are right when you say the mothership falls of the skys so fast and the carriers even faster while they are big ass units that should stomp t1 crap of the terran. You should talk about fixing these issues and not being hyper annoyed when someone of the race you do not play says that he would like more diversity while not being op. Shure, we can give every race one perfect balanced unit and nothing else: Perfect Balance, no viewers, no players, no fun. Having a bunch of units on the bank never used for anything or only used at very very special moments cannot be the situation we want. A unit that is rarely never used is a bad designed unit. As someone mentioned: If you would give the terran instead of a reaper a scan for 50/50, he would never build a reaper anymore. Nobody would miss him. If there were no carrier, nobody would mention it, because it is never used at all. And so on. And atm Blizzard is developing LotV and they have to change all these unused units, or the game will become even more boring for more and more viewers dropping out of existence very fast after LotV. On October 28 2014 00:28 pure.Wasted wrote: Yeah, but it's not just the Reaper, is it? Most of Terran mech and air isn't viable in TvP. It's 7 units versus 13, man. That's not a couple of units, that's almost twice as many! Make mech and air viable, give Terran bio something to tech to (BCs? Banshees? Ravens?) so that it isn't so hopelessly outmatched by Colossi the longer a game goes on, and maybe people won't be complaining about the Reaper taking up that Barracks slot. I won't speak to TvZ as it's in an obvious state of upheaval right now. Mech is quasi-viable and might still become totally viable, or it might get figured out and be reserved for the occasional all-in. Terran Bio is never outmatched by protoss at any point, if you look at the balance point, there is no need for a change. You wouldnt even need a change if it is 1 unit vs 1 unit all time or 1 vs 20. It is about the diversity, that makes the game better for viewers and casual players. And these players and viewer are the people that keep the scene alive or at least at a point where money brings up prof. players. | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
that way we might see either medivac reactor being used as it protects drops a bit, and banshee/raven/bc aren't as hardcountered by templar anymore | ||
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DCsFinest
9 Posts
Reaper's role in TvZ = Scout and makes the zerg HAVE to create a few zerglings in order to defend. Sometimes if 2 or 3 reapers are made and microed extremely well this continued pressure makes zerg fall behind in macro and econ leading to a stronger push int he midgame. Either way tke a step back. You are discussing the design flaw with the reaper while there appears to be many other units and races that have much larger issues. Let's discuss one of these other units instead. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 28 2014 00:41 DCsFinest wrote: Reaper's role in PvT = Keeps protoss from fast expanding and makes them use gas on stalker or mothership first instead of a sentry. Afterwards works well to keep the protoss from pushing out with the first stalker since it must be used in case a reaper sneaks in. Protoss is essentially stuck in their base for a little while. Then once speedvacs are out, the protoss is once again stuck in their base if the map has a lot of deadspace and the terran does not take a poor engagement. Reaper's role in TvZ = Scout and makes the zerg HAVE to create a few zerglings in order to defend. Sometimes if 2 or 3 reapers are made and microed extremely well this continued pressure makes zerg fall behind in macro and econ leading to a stronger push int he midgame. Either way tke a step back. You are discussing the design flaw with the reaper while there appears to be many other units and races that have much larger issues. Let's discuss one of these other units instead. Like what? I dare say most things have been discussed to death already. Including Reapers. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2655 Posts
On October 28 2014 00:37 Meavis wrote: it would be nice if reactor upgrades would also make units immune to or atleast ignore damage from feedback, (should not apply to ghost since 1. it's imbalanced and 2. no longer has a reactor upgrade) that way we might see either medivac reactor being used as it protects drops a bit, and banshee/raven/bc aren't as hardcountered by templar anymore This is what I've been saying for some time, if the banshee and the PPD (no need to make raven itself immune, we don't want mass raven) and maybe also the BC, mech could be more viable, as it is now a a single unit is able to counter half the mech units with 1 spell, the other half with the other and the remaining units with the archon. Carriers, tempest and immortals wouldn't be so strong vs mech because funny enough the units that counter them all get affected by feedback(PDD to stop tempest, Yamato 2 shots carriers, Banshee have some of the highest DPS in the terran arsenal and are really good destroying immortals). | ||
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DCsFinest
9 Posts
There should be roles and counters that units fill. The issue becomes when you are forced into using counters that are not easily transitioned out of or a unit isn't effective in it's role. There is not clear counter to a reaper early game that eliminates its use without the protoss or zerg giving taking at least an equal economic or tech hit. I don't actually think its flawed. It serves it's purpose and that is to restrict protoss and zerg from being too greedy. It takes no additional tech path to create except for 50 gas (oh no!) and in order to stop it from its harass it forces both protoss and zerg to make units. Also works amazingly in stopping almost all one base cheese from either of zerg or protoss. Stop focusing so much on what it can't do and look at what it does. No unit will do everything in all phases of the game. For mech to be more viable vs Tempars lower the energy capacity and the energy cost for each of the spells. Feedback's impact has not been eliminated, just reduced. Or increase the amount of energy feedback costs. Same thing can be done for EMP, maybe it reduces shields and energy 75% etc | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On October 28 2014 00:07 DinoMight wrote: You're thinking about this a little too "tit for tat." How about the Oracle, for example? Typically a guy going Oracle only makes one and after a certain amount of time it can't really harass minerals anymore, just fly around scouting and casting revelation. Please don't compare Reapers and Oracles. As it is now, a Reaper is only good for earlygame scouting. Make 1 of any anti-ground combat unit except Zealot and the Reaper won't do any damage. It's absolutely useless from that point on. It can't fight about anything at all. No defensive or offensive potential. Even scouting with it is pretty hard then, because it dies quickly to like everything. An Oracle is an earlygame harassment unit that can single-handedly win a game, if the opponent doesn't have a certain amount of anti-air units/structures. After it was scared away, it can still come back later for harassment, if the opponent isn't prepared. It can detect, which gives it defensive use against early cloaked aggression. It can be used to scout whole armies for the rest of the game at least. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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DCsFinest
9 Posts
On October 28 2014 01:02 SatedSC2 wrote: There's absolutely no reason for me - or anyone else in this thread - to take you seriously if you don't even play the game. Agreed. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 28 2014 01:02 SatedSC2 wrote: There's absolutely no reason for me - or anyone else in this thread - to take you seriously if you don't even play the game. Let me get this straight: because I don't play the game, I can't possibly know what I enjoy watching in the game? Because I've never fought in a Roman gladitorial arena, my opinion that having a slave with no weapons go up against a starving mountain lion isn't a fair fight isn't valid? Is that really what you're running with? Or is it your theory that Blizzard and GomEXP don't care about the opinions of viewers and subscribers who don't ladder, and don't care if these people are enjoying the show? It's an interesting theory, but my theory is they want my dollars. If you've got a counter-argument to anything I've said, I welcome you to share it and leave the ad hominems at the door. | ||
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