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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 25 2014 00:25 SC2Toastie wrote: There are no Blizzard run tournaments, WCS season is off, and the couple of ongoing tournament have/will have the current (S3) pool. I kinda hope someone runs a small tournament specifically for the fun of having this mappool in a tournament tbh. X-D | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On October 25 2014 02:09 -Celestial- wrote: I kinda hope someone runs a small tournament specifically for the fun of having this mappool in a tournament tbh. X-D Undoubtedly some organisation like Basetrade TV, MadalsSC or Go4SC2 is going to take advantage of that little niche and just have some fun at it  ! | ||
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On October 27 2014 18:02 Scrubwave wrote: Less about balance, more about unit design: god, is the "new" reaper bad. And I don't mean it as "they deal so little damage, pls buff", but the fact that they're basically only used for scouting and non-lethal harassment and only in the very early game is disgusting. Any type of unit whose lifespan can be measured in a couple of minutes is pure garbage from design standpoint. Step up your game, Blizzard. Try to be a tad more constructive, please.... | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 27 2014 18:18 SC2Toastie wrote: Try to be a tad more constructive, please.... How could he be more constructive, though? He wants the unit to be more useful in the game, there's literally an infinity of ways of accomplishing that goal. Give it new tier 2/3 upgrades, make it scale better with weapon/armor upgrades, change its stats, change its abilities, change its place in the tech tree, change the way it attacks, add a new Terran unit that has a great synergy with it... As fun as it is to make stuff up, it seems like a big old waste of time unless Blizzard lets us know they're fishing for ideas. I'm still holding out hope they'll get a tier 2/3 upgrade to make them relevant. Bio needs stuff to tech into in TvZ. (TvP, too, but at least there's Ghosts and Vikings...) | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On October 27 2014 18:29 pure.Wasted wrote: How could he be more constructive, though? He wants the unit to be more useful in the game, there's literally an infinity of ways of accomplishing that goal. Give it new tier 2/3 upgrades, make it scale better with weapon/armor upgrades, change its stats, change its abilities, change its place in the tech tree, change the way it attacks, add a new Terran unit that has a great synergy with it... As fun as it is to make stuff up, it seems like a big old waste of time unless Blizzard lets us know they're fishing for ideas. I'm still holding out hope they'll get a tier 2/3 upgrade to make them relevant. Bio needs stuff to tech into in TvZ. (TvP, too, but at least there's Ghosts and Vikings...) To discourage thoughtless bashing and encourage discussion on the subject. What role should the reaper fulfil? Why isn't this enough? Why Reaper and not BC/Carrier/BL? How would you balance a T3 bio upgrade on a 50/50 unit? | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 27 2014 18:33 SC2Toastie wrote: To discourage thoughtless bashing and encourage discussion on the subject. What role should the reaper fulfil? Why isn't this enough? Why Reaper and not BC/Carrier/BL? How would you balance a T3 bio upgrade on a 50/50 unit? The thing about most questions like these is it's impossible to have anything remotely approaching a satisfactory answer until Blizzard sits down and tests a bunch of random ideas. "How would you balance...?" By trying fifty different versions over a two month period! We can talk about it for ages, but there's no substitute for Blizzard actually trying to make it work. "Why isn't this enough?" because bio is a stale and predictable playstyle that desperately needs flexibility, and the Reaper is a bio unit that can more easily (and elegantly) be fitted into such a role than a brand new unit. Also because the Reaper is a very one-dimensional unit right now, which means it makes Terran a blander race simply by existing. "Why Reaper and not BC/Carrier/BL?" because the Carrier and BL are not Terran units, as for the BC I wouldn't mind seeing it be made to synergize with bio but 1) that would take some real creativity, and 2) it probably comes too late to add meaningful flexibility to bio; at best it could add some depth to bio lategame, which isn't nothing! I'd take it! | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On October 27 2014 18:41 pure.Wasted wrote: The thing about most questions like these is it's impossible to have anything remotely approaching a satisfactory answer until Blizzard sits down and tests a bunch of random ideas. "How would you balance...?" By trying fifty different versions over a two month period! We can talk about it for ages, but there's no substitute for Blizzard actually trying to make it work. "Why isn't this enough?" because bio is a stale and predictable playstyle that desperately needs flexibility, and the Reaper is a bio unit that can more easily (and elegantly) be fitted into such a role than a brand new unit. Also because the Reaper is a very one-dimensional unit right now, which means it makes Terran a blander race simply by existing. "Why Reaper and not BC/Carrier/BL?" because the Carrier and BL are not Terran units, as for the BC I wouldn't mind seeing it be made to synergize with bio but 1) that would take some real creativity, and 2) it probably comes too late to add meaningful flexibility to bio; at best it could add some depth to bio lategame, which isn't nothing! I'd take it! What I try to say is... We can encourage these kinds of rambles. LBLALALALALAL this unit sux because he is bad lalballalalala Why would Blizzard do anything with that? It makes more sense to explain properly what kind of problem there is and what role we think it could fullfill. There's a major difference between this: On October 27 2014 18:02 Scrubwave wrote: Less about balance, more about unit design: god, is the "new" reaper bad. And I don't mean it as "they deal so little damage, pls buff", but the fact that they're basically only used for scouting and non-lethal harassment and only in the very early game is disgusting. Any type of unit whose lifespan can be measured in a couple of minutes is pure garbage from design standpoint. Step up your game, Blizzard. and this: I don't like how the Reaper is currently functioning. It seems pidgeonholed into early game scouting and fulfills no purpose later on in the game. I'd like to see the Reaper made more viable in different stages of the game. One possible opportunity for the Reaper is fullfilling a lategame bio unit type of role. Biological armies are very weak to splash damage. The Reaper could receive changes to lessen this weakness. Another thing it could do, is become an efficient raider. At the end of WOL, some players (QXC pops to mind) experimented with making a round of reapers in the late game. These Reapers excelled at killing structures and workers. A lategame upgrade that returns the Reapers' old weapon set could make this possible. This also allows for new map designs as Terran has an option other than dropping (aerial attacks) to deal damage. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
I think the problem is that in the interests of making it more survivable they gave it that HP regen but because that might make it too strong for hit and run they removed the D-8 charges. Interestingly analogous to the mutalisk here, except the muta didn't take a nerf to anything, it actually had a speed buff. In any case unfortunately their removal meant that you don't really need it to be that much more survivable now because you can't really do anything with it beyond run in, look at their base, and run out. Even in proper games previously a few Reapers could be used to be really annoying with, now your only targets are workers and they're not very efficient at harrassing them. Rather disappointing to be honest. I used to like to build say...fifty Reapers and just go in and blow stuff up sometimes. :-\ The simplest solution would be to try adding charges back and balance from there, I feel. They or the regen or both might have to be scaled back a little, though. Edit: Heh, you posted very similar to me whilst I had it waiting prior to submission. Didn't realise I'd left it sitting there so long. X-D | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 27 2014 19:22 SC2Toastie wrote: What I try to say is... We can encourage these kinds of rambles. LBLALALALALAL this unit sux because he is bad lalballalalala Why would Blizzard do anything with that? It makes more sense to explain properly what kind of problem there is and what role we think it could fullfill. There's a major difference between this: and this: I don't like how the Reaper is currently functioning. It seems pidgeonholed into early game scouting and fulfills no purpose later on in the game. I'd like to see the Reaper made more viable in different stages of the game. One possible opportunity for the Reaper is fullfilling a lategame bio unit type of role. Biological armies are very weak to splash damage. The Reaper could receive changes to lessen this weakness. Another thing it could do, is become an efficient raider. At the end of WOL, some players (QXC pops to mind) experimented with making a round of reapers in the late game. These Reapers excelled at killing structures and workers. A lategame upgrade that returns the Reapers' old weapon set could make this possible. This also allows for new map designs as Terran has an option other than dropping (aerial attacks) to deal damage. You win. I'm just cranky because this isn't the first time this topic's come up, and so far, being constructive hasn't given us a thing. | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
On October 27 2014 19:22 SC2Toastie wrote: I don't like how the Reaper is currently functioning. It seems pidgeonholed into early game scouting and fulfills no purpose later on in the game. I'd like to see the Reaper made more viable in different stages of the game. One possible opportunity for the Reaper is fullfilling a lategame bio unit type of role. Biological armies are very weak to splash damage. The Reaper could receive changes to lessen this weakness. Another thing it could do, is become an efficient raider. At the end of WOL, some players (QXC pops to mind) experimented with making a round of reapers in the late game. These Reapers excelled at killing structures and workers. A lategame upgrade that returns the Reapers' old weapon set could make this possible. This also allows for new map designs as Terran has an option other than dropping (aerial attacks) to deal damage. haha nice one | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
BTW: I understand (and I think) that the Reaper needs somethjing to be useful. But really, does BIO need even more things/buffs????? I'm making a compilation of balance suggestions seen in this forum/SC2 community forums (specially stated by Master Players, streamers and Pro's) when patches came out and I'm close to finish it. It would be nice if it has some diffusion. I will post it once its more completed if you have some interest. PM me if you want to see the draft. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 27 2014 19:48 JCoto wrote: BTW: I understand (and I think) that the Reaper needs somethjing to be useful. But really, does BIO need even more things/buffs????? Whether Bio needs more buffs or not cycles back to "the Marine problem" which would veer us way off topic here I think. The point is...what is undeniable is that the Reaper is singularly one-dimensional right now. Its a scout, nothing more. I think the Reaper could easily be reworked without messing with the core Bio army; I mean it wasn't exactly used extensively in armies in WoL. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
What this game needs is viability to the lategame units, instead of having that lategame killers on massive units(Abduct, Fungal stun, Tempest). Nerf a bit that, give some units a little more armor to resist MMM and Mutas, some better mech and then options multiply and the game can be played completely so you can experiment with map designs. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
early game aggressive unit either used defensively, for all-ins, or for macro scouting. It allows all 3 types of standard game play and is one of the better designed units for the game. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 27 2014 20:18 JCoto wrote: -Celestial- I completely agree with you. But the problem of MMM has pretty good solution, and is +1/2 armor in some heavy units, which would make sense. Marines are good, but 1 armor kills around 15% of their DPS. What this game needs is viability to the lategame units, instead of having that lategame killers on massive units(Abduct, Fungal stun, Tempest). Nerf a bit that, give some units a little more armor to resist MMM and Mutas, some better mech and then options multiply and the game can be played completely so you can experiment with map designs. This is actually a big problem I've had with Starcraft since Broodwar. Higher tier units that are supposed to be tanky never really felt any more tanky than lower tier units. Blizz fixed this with Warcraft III of course, but then they went back on their deal with SC2. Why don't Battlecruisers and carriers already come with 4-5 base armor? Why don't Siege Tanks and Immortals come with base 2-3 armor to show they are beefier than marauders and stalkers? Why didn't the mothership come with 7-10 base armor because its the mothafucking mothership and it SHOULD laugh and marine fire? | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
with that in consideration buffing lategame units would be stupid as it would make the early game obsolete, I don't think anyone is gonna bother making marines if they were to be obsolete 2 minutes later against fast BC's. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
- reapers with stim pack, combat shields - concussive shells turned into an upgrade that changes both marauder and reaper attack - additional reaper upgrade at the tech lab - ghost academy changed into academy with some bio upgrades placed there Reapers are so useless past a certain point that you could honestly go wild with T2+ upgrades. | ||
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