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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 24 2014 20:45 RaFox17 wrote: It's gonna be lot of pvp there cause i have a feeling that zerg will veto that map. I just hope I can find Zergs to play TvZ on Cloud Kingdom again. Bringing back my old near unpunishable 4-5CC Mech builds on that map.  | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
#1 Cloud Kingdom LE (8.34%) Zergs are gonna veto this. Turtleterran is too easy, getting a fouth is almost impossible. Terrans are going to veto this because Turtletoss is going to be OP. IIRC, Protoss vs Terran on this map was 70% in WoL in some time span which happens to be somewhere in the 2nd half of 2012, sorry Sated for not being 100000% percent clear about this and giving you a heart attack T_T, whilst dropping the main is impossible. T/Z will veto. #2 Metalopolis (8.14%) Reaper paradise. Protoss can't expand in any matchup so will veto, Zerg is going to struggle getting their bases up but has ample counter opportunities. Terran can rally through the gold because it is cross map only. Also super easy to split. Protoss will veto, Zerg might. #3 Daybreak LE (7.79%) Swarm Host pl0x. IMO Terran has always had a hard time on this map, but this might be the most balanced map around. Albeit boring. #4 Ohana LE (7.69%) Soul Train, need I say more? PvT TvT PvP map. #5 Shakuras Plateau (7.21%) Splitting maps ezpz. Zergs want to veto this, Protoss and Terran can go toe to toe. #6 Akilon Wastes (6.77%) Swarm Host map. None of the races will veto and the games will be terribly boring. #7 TBA ??? TLDR; Zerg will have too few veto's and the balanced maps are all extremely turtle favored. I'm not looking forward to this. | ||
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zerge
Germany162 Posts
On October 24 2014 21:59 SC2Toastie wrote: Results #1 Cloud Kingdom LE (8.34%) Zergs are gonna veto this. Turtleterran is too easy, getting a fouth is almost impossible. Terrans are going to veto this because Turtletoss is going to be OP. IIRC, Protoss vs Terran on this map was 70% before MSC, whilst dropping the main is impossible. T/Z will veto. #2 Metalopolis (8.14%) Reaper paradise. Protoss can't expand in any matchup so will veto, Zerg is going to struggle getting their bases up but has ample counter opportunities. Terran can rally through the gold because it is cross map only. Also super easy to split. Protoss will veto, Zerg might. #3 Daybreak LE (7.79%) Swarm Host pl0x. IMO Terran has always had a hard time on this map, but this might be the most balanced map around. Albeit boring. #4 Ohana LE (7.69%) Soul Train, need I say more? PvT TvT PvP map. #5 Shakuras Plateau (7.21%) Splitting maps ezpz. Zergs want to veto this, Protoss and Terran can go toe to toe. #6 Akilon Wastes (6.77%) Swarm Host map. None of the races will veto and the games will be terribly boring. #7 TBA ??? TLDR; Zerg will have too few veto's and the balanced maps are all extremely turtle favored. I'm not looking forward to this. What about 2 base swarmhost on Ohana and Cloud Kingdom? I think all the maps are playable for zerg if you are good at swarmhost play. I will probably just veto shakuras although i voted for it because taking a closer look at the map tank drops are going to a pain. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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zerge
Germany162 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 24 2014 22:51 zerge wrote: I think it could work on Ohana at least, once you hold you can take down the rocks and defend 3 bases with swarmhost at the natural. It only turns out to be an allin when they dont make an immortal sentry push and you have to use the swarmhosts offensive, you're even in workers and protoss will have to tech to collossus. Yeah, but why would your opponent immortal push to begin with? Standard probe scout, sees no third --> Protoss wins sees third --> can Immortal push or play anything else. None of them is unbeatable, but Immortal Sentry is pretty broken there, yup. Edit: Also I'm not even certain if you get out the SHs until the push hits you at 9:20. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On October 24 2014 22:50 SatedSC2 wrote: HotS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/maps/510_ESV_Cloud_Kingdom WoL International: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/maps/510_ESV_Cloud_Kingdom WoL Korean: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/510_ESV_Cloud_Kingdom Don't tell lies. It wasn't 70% at any stage with or without the MSC. The only time it wasn't 50% was in Terran's favour, and even then it was only very slightly in Terran's favour. You really are a numpty. I'm fairly certain that this map was 70% in PvT in WOL at some point in time. I'm not sure if it was a tournament or some period in time, or whatever, I'll try and see if I can find stats from 2 years old. Thanks for the insult. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On October 24 2014 23:58 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm fairly certain that this map was 70% in PvT in WOL at some point in time. I'm not sure if it was a tournament or some period in time, or whatever, I'll try and see if I can find stats from 2 years old. Thanks for the insult. So, I've been jumping some timelines, halfway-late 2012 we've been at over 60% in PvT, which is probably where that memory came from. Overal the map seems to be quite balanced, sorry for not being perfectly 100% clear and giving mr. Protosssobad a reason to be offended. HOWEVER, Speedivac buffs are nullified by the map layout, MSC is not. Timewarp is also pretty fucking slick here. Blink is amazing on these cliffs. Gogo :D? Also, you may go into the theorycraft instead of nitpicking, which I've been urging you to do for ages... | ||
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Swisslink
2958 Posts
On October 24 2014 22:58 Big J wrote: Yeah, but why would your opponent immortal push to begin with? Standard probe scout, sees no third --> Protoss wins sees third --> can Immortal push or play anything else. None of them is unbeatable, but Immortal Sentry is pretty broken there, yup. Edit: Also I'm not even certain if you get out the SHs until the push hits you at 9:20. I think it's better than Yeonsu for the Soultrain... and... I barely ever saw a Zerg hold a well executed soultrain on Yeonsu. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 24 2014 19:32 SC2Toastie wrote: Just nitpicking, but Cure has at least much right on that 'top 10 title' as Flash. So does TY. Calling these players decent while calling Stats who just had his first really notable achievement something in the trend of 'amazing' is, with all due respect, highly interesting. That being said, whilst these qualifiers were good for Protoss and Terran was somewhat lacking, this is not indicative of balance in any way. I got a rather snarky PM from xongnox about this before (he seems to like to present himself as "superior"; hence him calling LSN stupid and the rather unpleasant PM I got) in which I went into detail so I'll just briefly recap my feelings on Cure from what I said there: The way I view the nebulous term of "top player" is either a long period of really high calibre play and results (see soO, probably the best Zerg in the world, playing excellently but constantly ending up second place) or utter dominance possibly over a shorter amount of time (see Life late 2012/early 2013) or both. I feel this is where the mismatch in opinions is possibly coming from. Cure is a good player, but his height so far has been a quick burn on a Code S semi-finals and a second place at Red Bull Battlegrounds all in a two week period. His other results this year amount to a 9-12 Proleague record and two low-level Code A placements. This recent period of high-calibre play has only been over really quite a short amount of time and hasn't been the utter dominance in that time needed to be truly convincing of his quality in my view. More specifically this represents his absolute best form ever and its still not been enough to win a tournament. In comparison when Dear went onto a period of his best form ever he won Code S and the WCS season finals a week later. Cure has been playing incredibly well, but only very recently, and its not a "beating all comers" kind of playing well. In short: I remain to be convinced he can keep this up for very long and that its not just a brief foray into being in very good form. On Flash: Flash, meanwhile, has been long building up to be a better and better player until he went on an absolute tear in August. Has he fallen off since then? Yes. Has it been a crash and burn? Not really. The big parts of his "fall" have been dropping out of Code S on the back of two 1-2 results and losing in the KeSPA cup semi-finals against herO. But over time his play has been clearly improving to the point that he's clearly a top, top class player; and has become that way through sheer hard work. On Stats: I didn't call Stats anything. If you want my views on Stats they're much the same as those on Cure. He's a good player who has found excellent form recently. Hence the tournament win. My point is that a good player in excellent form qualifying is not unexpected. So the 2-1-1 numbers and the actual names on there are hardly big upsets. No more, no less. On TY: On reflection I was perhaps a little unfair on TY, mainly because I've seen him do some silly things in games which somewhat colours my view. Objectively and statistically he's better than Cure and has been doing something of a "Flash" in progressively getting better and better (compare and contrast his 26-26 record in Proleague last year with this year's 17-12 and also his non-qualification for GSL in S1 this year through to low-mid Code A S2 and Code S S3). Given that you've convinced me to look over his results again and reassess I'd say that I might well have been wrong about him. Regardless, quoting a tournament where the qualifiers were reasonably balanced based on the people in it and which then subsequently invited no Terrans at all is a poor start to begin a point or counterpoint on balance, I agree. Which was largely where I was going with that post. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12593 Posts
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On October 25 2014 00:18 Nebuchad wrote: My guess is the seventh map will be Overgrowth or Whirlwind... These maps are a little too standard in my opinion, it's interesting from time to time to play on less regular maps, but ofc when you present it in a vote people will vote for the most standard ones Overgrowth is in the current pool... | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On October 25 2014 00:19 RaFox17 wrote: Are they gonna use next ladder map pool in tournaments? Cause that would be simply terrible. There are no Blizzard run tournaments, WCS season is off, and the couple of ongoing tournament have/will have the current (S3) pool. | ||
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Swisslink
2958 Posts
On October 25 2014 00:19 RaFox17 wrote: Are they gonna use next ladder map pool in tournaments? Cause that would be simply terrible. Since no WCS tournaments will take place during this season, they are not forced to use these maps ^^ | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On October 24 2014 22:58 Big J wrote: Standard probe scout, sees no third --> Protoss wins Lol. Why does Protoss win if they scout no "regularly timed" 3rd? There are many things Zerg can do with a delayed third that Protoss needs to prepare for and can lose to if they react wrong. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12593 Posts
I didn't realize we weren't allowed to choose from those in the current pool, sorry | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On October 25 2014 01:15 SatedSC2 wrote: The maps we were choosing from are in the OP. Of another thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/467779-season-4-ladder-map-pool-voting-begins | ||
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