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On October 24 2014 02:21 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 01:16 Big J wrote:On October 24 2014 01:12 frostalgia wrote:
The only change I'd love to see happen before LotV is to Swarm Hosts.
They can be made into a more fun unit if tweaked correctly. This might have to wait until Legacy of the Void, but I believe it's an urgent change that should be implemented at least on a Balance Map after this year.
Locusts need to be much weaker, and do far less damage. You should be able to kill them with workers, and they should need to 2-shot workers as well. They should be weaker than zerglings and broodlings.
I suggest to cut their damage and health in half.
In exchange, they should move quicker (about twice as fast), live for 30 seconds (45 seconds with Enduring upgrade, which should require Hive), and spawn every 30 seconds. Then you can poke around more often, or overlap spawns to crate a swarm that can deal double damage for ten seconds.
This creates interesting strategic opportunities in all zerg matchups, by deciding where to spawn locusts from and moving them around more often since they're faster. Swarm Hosts would be more focused on things like map control, scouting, harassing worker lines, or overlapping spawns to do damage for a few seconds. However, they wouldn't be great damage dealers with each spawn like they are now during a siege.
Think about how this can actually be a buff for Zerg in situations where they can prove useful. Zerg wouldn't lose as many lings to scout, it provides more micro for Swarm Hosts for better players to show skill with them, and doesn't make you a troll anymore.
They would most likely be used in smaller numbers to poke around at first, but would make a good support unit to scout ahead, or locusts can still make a nice damage-sink for other units instead of lings once the Enduring Locusts upgrade is researched and spawns can be overlapped.
Wouldn't it be more fun to try to overlap spawns in late game, and micro speedier locusts around in mid game as scouts and worker harass? Giving Swarm Host a reduced midgame role and a more interesting micro-based late game role would be beneficial for all races and matchups. If I want a fast harass unit that walks by ground and is cheap I actually just build zerglings. The idea with Swarm Hosts was to give zerg a much needed midgame longrange unit. Something that lets you attack if you claim mapcontrol. The free unit concept failed in that regard and thus I think it should just be removed and replaced with something that fits the intention. Should replace the free units with spikes that travel from underground, dealing damage to units in a line. Just sayin 
If it has less range than a collosus it's useless cause marauders immortal can kill it too easily if it has more range than collosus it's imba as hell.
Lurkers would be stupid in sc2.
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On October 24 2014 02:42 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 02:21 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 24 2014 01:16 Big J wrote:On October 24 2014 01:12 frostalgia wrote:
The only change I'd love to see happen before LotV is to Swarm Hosts.
They can be made into a more fun unit if tweaked correctly. This might have to wait until Legacy of the Void, but I believe it's an urgent change that should be implemented at least on a Balance Map after this year.
Locusts need to be much weaker, and do far less damage. You should be able to kill them with workers, and they should need to 2-shot workers as well. They should be weaker than zerglings and broodlings.
I suggest to cut their damage and health in half.
In exchange, they should move quicker (about twice as fast), live for 30 seconds (45 seconds with Enduring upgrade, which should require Hive), and spawn every 30 seconds. Then you can poke around more often, or overlap spawns to crate a swarm that can deal double damage for ten seconds.
This creates interesting strategic opportunities in all zerg matchups, by deciding where to spawn locusts from and moving them around more often since they're faster. Swarm Hosts would be more focused on things like map control, scouting, harassing worker lines, or overlapping spawns to do damage for a few seconds. However, they wouldn't be great damage dealers with each spawn like they are now during a siege.
Think about how this can actually be a buff for Zerg in situations where they can prove useful. Zerg wouldn't lose as many lings to scout, it provides more micro for Swarm Hosts for better players to show skill with them, and doesn't make you a troll anymore.
They would most likely be used in smaller numbers to poke around at first, but would make a good support unit to scout ahead, or locusts can still make a nice damage-sink for other units instead of lings once the Enduring Locusts upgrade is researched and spawns can be overlapped.
Wouldn't it be more fun to try to overlap spawns in late game, and micro speedier locusts around in mid game as scouts and worker harass? Giving Swarm Host a reduced midgame role and a more interesting micro-based late game role would be beneficial for all races and matchups. If I want a fast harass unit that walks by ground and is cheap I actually just build zerglings. The idea with Swarm Hosts was to give zerg a much needed midgame longrange unit. Something that lets you attack if you claim mapcontrol. The free unit concept failed in that regard and thus I think it should just be removed and replaced with something that fits the intention. Should replace the free units with spikes that travel from underground, dealing damage to units in a line. Just sayin If it has less range than a collosus it's useless cause marauders immortal can kill it too easily if it has more range than collosus it's imba as hell. Lurkers would be stupid in sc2.
Your argument literally is "marauders could kill it and if it had more range it would be imba" - what? That doesn't make sense. If marauders could kill lurkers easily thats completely fine. A unit doesn't have to be strong against everything. Thats why unit compositions exist.
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On October 24 2014 02:44 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 02:42 HellHound wrote:On October 24 2014 02:21 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 24 2014 01:16 Big J wrote:On October 24 2014 01:12 frostalgia wrote:
The only change I'd love to see happen before LotV is to Swarm Hosts.
They can be made into a more fun unit if tweaked correctly. This might have to wait until Legacy of the Void, but I believe it's an urgent change that should be implemented at least on a Balance Map after this year.
Locusts need to be much weaker, and do far less damage. You should be able to kill them with workers, and they should need to 2-shot workers as well. They should be weaker than zerglings and broodlings.
I suggest to cut their damage and health in half.
In exchange, they should move quicker (about twice as fast), live for 30 seconds (45 seconds with Enduring upgrade, which should require Hive), and spawn every 30 seconds. Then you can poke around more often, or overlap spawns to crate a swarm that can deal double damage for ten seconds.
This creates interesting strategic opportunities in all zerg matchups, by deciding where to spawn locusts from and moving them around more often since they're faster. Swarm Hosts would be more focused on things like map control, scouting, harassing worker lines, or overlapping spawns to do damage for a few seconds. However, they wouldn't be great damage dealers with each spawn like they are now during a siege.
Think about how this can actually be a buff for Zerg in situations where they can prove useful. Zerg wouldn't lose as many lings to scout, it provides more micro for Swarm Hosts for better players to show skill with them, and doesn't make you a troll anymore.
They would most likely be used in smaller numbers to poke around at first, but would make a good support unit to scout ahead, or locusts can still make a nice damage-sink for other units instead of lings once the Enduring Locusts upgrade is researched and spawns can be overlapped.
Wouldn't it be more fun to try to overlap spawns in late game, and micro speedier locusts around in mid game as scouts and worker harass? Giving Swarm Host a reduced midgame role and a more interesting micro-based late game role would be beneficial for all races and matchups. If I want a fast harass unit that walks by ground and is cheap I actually just build zerglings. The idea with Swarm Hosts was to give zerg a much needed midgame longrange unit. Something that lets you attack if you claim mapcontrol. The free unit concept failed in that regard and thus I think it should just be removed and replaced with something that fits the intention. Should replace the free units with spikes that travel from underground, dealing damage to units in a line. Just sayin If it has less range than a collosus it's useless cause marauders immortal can kill it too easily if it has more range than collosus it's imba as hell. Lurkers would be stupid in sc2. Your argument literally is "marauders could kill it and if it had more range it would be imba" - what? That doesn't make sense. If marauders could kill lurkers easily thats completely fine. A unit doesn't have to be strong against everything. Thats why unit compositions exist. Yeah that's my argument pretty much.
If it's range is too short you can't use it to effectivly siege which is what the swarm host is for (and even tho it takes forever with some viper help it's actaully not that horrible at it)
If it's too long it's really hard to kill in a defensive position so pushing into zerg becomes very difficult.
How will you use lurker to help zerg break people playing super defensive?
Regardless how much whining is going on about the SH it does that job.
What else would you use it for? To kill marines? We have banes for that. Lurker would be better? Arguable, mobile splash has advantages versus super sonic drop ships.
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On October 23 2014 20:46 SatedSC2 wrote:
No, I don't care to.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about if you think that the Mothership Core makes Protoss overtly strong against Terran given that the game is actually very balanced at the moment (outside of obvious map imbalances on terrible maps like Nimbus). There are plenty of examples of Protoss players losing to Terran players in the early-game because they were overly reliant on Photon Overcharge, both against Stim-based timing-attacks and 111-based multi-pronged aggression. Pretending that Protoss can't be attacked because of Photon Overcharge is incredibly dishonest, but I'd be wasting my time trying to convince you of that fact.
This.
User was warned for this post
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I like to believe that internal Blizzard people know some strategies we don't. But, it's good for the game when, after being out for 10 years, epic, new strategies are 'discovered'.
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On October 24 2014 02:58 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2014 20:46 SatedSC2 wrote:
No, I don't care to.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about if you think that the Mothership Core makes Protoss overtly strong against Terran given that the game is actually very balanced at the moment (outside of obvious map imbalances on terrible maps like Nimbus). There are plenty of examples of Protoss players losing to Terran players in the early-game because they were overly reliant on Photon Overcharge, both against Stim-based timing-attacks and 111-based multi-pronged aggression. Pretending that Protoss can't be attacked because of Photon Overcharge is incredibly dishonest, but I'd be wasting my time trying to convince you of that fact. This.
Toastie wrote:
No, you don't care to. Why would you have to explain your opinion. Silly me.
I claim Terran vs Protoss is boring because Overcharge eliminates SO many option. Yes, it does.
Protoss players losing in the early game to Terran based aggression is usually the cause of mistakes or greed. The fact that it is not uncommon to see Terran with 30 Army supply and Protoss with 8 where Terran cannot really damage Protoss is ridiculous. The fact that ending up in this situation where it is standard to be on Overcharge + 3 Stalkers even if you do not have enough scouting information but are expanding and teching like a madman and you are okay with that is beyond me.
About 1/1/1 based attacks - These are pretty damn all in for Terran and in broadcasted matches certainly have a negative win rate (especially if you take well executed defenses instead of a Mine killing 15 Probes). Their only use is surprising the greediest of greediest builds.
About Stim based aggression - Stim takes 3 minutes to research, you cannot call an attack with Stim an early game attack.
I don't pretend like Protoss cannot be attacked because of overcharge. It just happens to be so. Nobody goes for a dedicated attack against Protoss until you can either go multipronged or have so much supply the cannon doesn't deal as much damage anymore. Show me some examples of Terran going for earlygame aggression and Overcharge not looking retarded.
As a sidenote; Obviously TvP is fairly well balanced. We've played with this dumb spell for 2 years and balanced maps etc. around it. That's a silly argument. I'm not discussing balance. I'm discussing design. Is it fun? Does it make sense? What role does the spell serve?
You seem not to be willing to discuss this. Might I ask why you are still responding?
Maybe you care to go into the discussion instead of conveniently ignoring me when I call you out ;-)?
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On October 24 2014 03:07 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 02:58 DinoMight wrote:On October 23 2014 20:46 SatedSC2 wrote:
No, I don't care to.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about if you think that the Mothership Core makes Protoss overtly strong against Terran given that the game is actually very balanced at the moment (outside of obvious map imbalances on terrible maps like Nimbus). There are plenty of examples of Protoss players losing to Terran players in the early-game because they were overly reliant on Photon Overcharge, both against Stim-based timing-attacks and 111-based multi-pronged aggression. Pretending that Protoss can't be attacked because of Photon Overcharge is incredibly dishonest, but I'd be wasting my time trying to convince you of that fact. This. Show nested quote +Toastie wrote:
No, you don't care to. Why would you have to explain your opinion. Silly me.
I claim Terran vs Protoss is boring because Overcharge eliminates SO many option. Yes, it does.
Protoss players losing in the early game to Terran based aggression is usually the cause of mistakes or greed. The fact that it is not uncommon to see Terran with 30 Army supply and Protoss with 8 where Terran cannot really damage Protoss is ridiculous. The fact that ending up in this situation where it is standard to be on Overcharge + 3 Stalkers even if you do not have enough scouting information but are expanding and teching like a madman and you are okay with that is beyond me.
About 1/1/1 based attacks - These are pretty damn all in for Terran and in broadcasted matches certainly have a negative win rate (especially if you take well executed defenses instead of a Mine killing 15 Probes). Their only use is surprising the greediest of greediest builds.
About Stim based aggression - Stim takes 3 minutes to research, you cannot call an attack with Stim an early game attack.
I don't pretend like Protoss cannot be attacked because of overcharge. It just happens to be so. Nobody goes for a dedicated attack against Protoss until you can either go multipronged or have so much supply the cannon doesn't deal as much damage anymore. Show me some examples of Terran going for earlygame aggression and Overcharge not looking retarded.
As a sidenote; Obviously TvP is fairly well balanced. We've played with this dumb spell for 2 years and balanced maps etc. around it. That's a silly argument. I'm not discussing balance. I'm discussing design. Is it fun? Does it make sense? What role does the spell serve?
You seem not to be willing to discuss this. Might I ask why you are still responding? Maybe you care to go into the discussion instead of conveniently ignoring me when I call you out ;-)?
Since nobody will agree with anything I say based on reputation alone I'm trying a new strategy where I just agree with stuff other people say =P
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If you want my opinion, here it is:
In WoL, you defended drops by spotting for them and placing a few units to deal with the MEDIVACS. You just needed enough stuff to kill the medivacs before they unloaded. A few Stalkers did the job just fine.
In HotS, Medivacs can now speed right over your Stalkers and drop the cargo anyway. Meaning you need to be able to kill the contents of the drop, not just the dropship itself. So Protoss is placed into a situation where it needs to have enough army to fight a drop anywhere a drop could land within a few seconds of spotting it on the minimap. So P ends up spending a lot of money on drop defense while T is free to simply not drop and take an expansion. Additionally, MMM > Gateway units, and our AoE units are expensive and slow. So you see players like Maru abusing that to take wins even WITH the MsC in play. Without Photon Overcharge I think Speedivacs would be a bit too abusive.
TLDR; speedivacs have significantly increased the cost of drop defense for Protoss and P needs something to compensate for that or they fall behind economically.
EDIT - also, maps have made it very difficult to move between your expansions and your main base by ground but very easy by air (Catallena, Deadwing, Nimbus) which further strengthens drop play from Terran. With speedivacs and no PO I wouldn't be surprised to see Protoss winrates drop to sub 40%.
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On October 24 2014 01:29 frostalgia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 01:16 Big J wrote:
If I want a fast harass unit that walks by ground and is cheap I actually just build zerglings.
The idea with Swarm Hosts was to give zerg a much needed midgame longrange unit. Something that lets you attack if you claim mapcontrol. The free unit concept failed in that regard and thus I think it should just be removed and replaced with something that fits the intention. Exactly the role Locusts should have, regardless of their intention when they were created. Now their role should be a replacement for Zerglings, ones that can respawn for free. The respawn should be their focus in midgame, and damage-sink in lategame. They are still ranged units, so they'll still pair with zerglings or broodlins just fine.. They just won't be more powerful than zerglings or broodlings unless combined, and waiting for a respawn to deal double damage for 10-15 seconds still makes them potentially strong in late game, just not an annoying seige unit that is impossible to bypass, creating stagnant deadzones. Nerfing locust strength and toughness in exchange for speed and life length is a wise way to make Swarm Host a more interesting unit in the right hands. At the highest level most zergs would be loving speedier free units, and making them weaker will only help stop stagnation in Swarm Host play.
But my question remains: what strategic purpose does that unit fullfill that I cannot fullfill with zerglings or speedroaches already?
My current thinking is that you are creating a unit that spawns zergling like units that intially cost a ton (because SHs cost a ton) but cannot take good engagements. On top of that they are clunky to control, because they die all 30to45seconds and I have to reselect and resend them where I need them.
So why don't I just use zerglings and speedroaches to catch my opponent out of position?
Or build mutalisks if ground harass doesn't work anymore due to walls?
Like, the whole reason why we build SHs as zerg currently is that we want a better, longrange army composition in the lategame to fight the opponent with.
If we don't want to straight up fight, we build mutalisks and do zergling runbies and counterattacks, because the first one is really good at it as you can reuse it a lot, and the second one is really good at it because it is highly costefficient at it. I don't see why I would need another unit to do that too. (also given that roaches can somewhat fullfill that purpose as well and to a less degree speedbanelings)
On October 24 2014 02:21 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 01:16 Big J wrote:On October 24 2014 01:12 frostalgia wrote:
The only change I'd love to see happen before LotV is to Swarm Hosts.
They can be made into a more fun unit if tweaked correctly. This might have to wait until Legacy of the Void, but I believe it's an urgent change that should be implemented at least on a Balance Map after this year.
Locusts need to be much weaker, and do far less damage. You should be able to kill them with workers, and they should need to 2-shot workers as well. They should be weaker than zerglings and broodlings.
I suggest to cut their damage and health in half.
In exchange, they should move quicker (about twice as fast), live for 30 seconds (45 seconds with Enduring upgrade, which should require Hive), and spawn every 30 seconds. Then you can poke around more often, or overlap spawns to crate a swarm that can deal double damage for ten seconds.
This creates interesting strategic opportunities in all zerg matchups, by deciding where to spawn locusts from and moving them around more often since they're faster. Swarm Hosts would be more focused on things like map control, scouting, harassing worker lines, or overlapping spawns to do damage for a few seconds. However, they wouldn't be great damage dealers with each spawn like they are now during a siege.
Think about how this can actually be a buff for Zerg in situations where they can prove useful. Zerg wouldn't lose as many lings to scout, it provides more micro for Swarm Hosts for better players to show skill with them, and doesn't make you a troll anymore.
They would most likely be used in smaller numbers to poke around at first, but would make a good support unit to scout ahead, or locusts can still make a nice damage-sink for other units instead of lings once the Enduring Locusts upgrade is researched and spawns can be overlapped.
Wouldn't it be more fun to try to overlap spawns in late game, and micro speedier locusts around in mid game as scouts and worker harass? Giving Swarm Host a reduced midgame role and a more interesting micro-based late game role would be beneficial for all races and matchups. If I want a fast harass unit that walks by ground and is cheap I actually just build zerglings. The idea with Swarm Hosts was to give zerg a much needed midgame longrange unit. Something that lets you attack if you claim mapcontrol. The free unit concept failed in that regard and thus I think it should just be removed and replaced with something that fits the intention. Should replace the free units with spikes that travel from underground, dealing damage to units in a line. Just sayin
If it has 9-12range and helps me break walls I'm fine with it. Which sounds much more like an impaler to me.
Basically what Hellhound says.
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Maybe a simple change to make things a little more active/interesting? Perhaps force protoss to "pump" the nexus cannon 4 times per duration? Just to give him a little more apm spending and more tension (i.e. if he doesn't pump it then the battle could go awry)?
In accordance with the above adjustment, it is simpler to make the nexus cannon cost 1/4 the energy and last 1/4 the duration but the subtle difference is that this gives the mothership core more flexibility with her energy expenditures.
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On October 24 2014 03:26 mishimaBeef wrote:
Maybe a simple change to make things a little more active/interesting? Perhaps force protoss to "pump" the nexus cannon 4 times per duration? Just to give him a little more apm spending and more tension (i.e. if he doesn't pump it then the battle could go awry)?
This won't change anything at the pro level. Requiring 3 more clicks over the course of a minute wouldn't do much (in fact, you're just asking them to play 3 APM higher).
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On October 24 2014 03:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 03:26 mishimaBeef wrote:
Maybe a simple change to make things a little more active/interesting? Perhaps force protoss to "pump" the nexus cannon 4 times per duration? Just to give him a little more apm spending and more tension (i.e. if he doesn't pump it then the battle could go awry)? This won't change anything at the pro level. Requiring 3 more clicks over the course of a minute wouldn't do much (in fact, you're just asking them to play 3 APM higher).
Yeah but timing is also an issue. Maybe when the nexus needs pumping you were busy microing stalkers for a moment and that speedvac managed to escape due to your nexus pump being .5 seconds late.
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On October 24 2014 03:26 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 03:10 DinoMight wrote:On October 24 2014 03:07 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 24 2014 02:58 DinoMight wrote:On October 23 2014 20:46 SatedSC2 wrote:
No, I don't care to.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about if you think that the Mothership Core makes Protoss overtly strong against Terran given that the game is actually very balanced at the moment (outside of obvious map imbalances on terrible maps like Nimbus). There are plenty of examples of Protoss players losing to Terran players in the early-game because they were overly reliant on Photon Overcharge, both against Stim-based timing-attacks and 111-based multi-pronged aggression. Pretending that Protoss can't be attacked because of Photon Overcharge is incredibly dishonest, but I'd be wasting my time trying to convince you of that fact. This. Toastie wrote:
No, you don't care to. Why would you have to explain your opinion. Silly me.
I claim Terran vs Protoss is boring because Overcharge eliminates SO many option. Yes, it does.
Protoss players losing in the early game to Terran based aggression is usually the cause of mistakes or greed. The fact that it is not uncommon to see Terran with 30 Army supply and Protoss with 8 where Terran cannot really damage Protoss is ridiculous. The fact that ending up in this situation where it is standard to be on Overcharge + 3 Stalkers even if you do not have enough scouting information but are expanding and teching like a madman and you are okay with that is beyond me.
About 1/1/1 based attacks - These are pretty damn all in for Terran and in broadcasted matches certainly have a negative win rate (especially if you take well executed defenses instead of a Mine killing 15 Probes). Their only use is surprising the greediest of greediest builds.
About Stim based aggression - Stim takes 3 minutes to research, you cannot call an attack with Stim an early game attack.
I don't pretend like Protoss cannot be attacked because of overcharge. It just happens to be so. Nobody goes for a dedicated attack against Protoss until you can either go multipronged or have so much supply the cannon doesn't deal as much damage anymore. Show me some examples of Terran going for earlygame aggression and Overcharge not looking retarded.
As a sidenote; Obviously TvP is fairly well balanced. We've played with this dumb spell for 2 years and balanced maps etc. around it. That's a silly argument. I'm not discussing balance. I'm discussing design. Is it fun? Does it make sense? What role does the spell serve?
You seem not to be willing to discuss this. Might I ask why you are still responding? Maybe you care to go into the discussion instead of conveniently ignoring me when I call you out ;-)? Since nobody will agree with anything I say based on reputation alone I'm trying a new strategy where I just agree with stuff other people say =P You're picking the wrong person to agree with based on that strategy.
I wasn't agreeing with a person, just a quoted statement. I reserve the right to disagree with anyone at any time and for any reason 
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On October 24 2014 02:58 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 02:44 KeksX wrote:On October 24 2014 02:42 HellHound wrote:On October 24 2014 02:21 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 24 2014 01:16 Big J wrote:On October 24 2014 01:12 frostalgia wrote:
The only change I'd love to see happen before LotV is to Swarm Hosts.
They can be made into a more fun unit if tweaked correctly. This might have to wait until Legacy of the Void, but I believe it's an urgent change that should be implemented at least on a Balance Map after this year.
Locusts need to be much weaker, and do far less damage. You should be able to kill them with workers, and they should need to 2-shot workers as well. They should be weaker than zerglings and broodlings.
I suggest to cut their damage and health in half.
In exchange, they should move quicker (about twice as fast), live for 30 seconds (45 seconds with Enduring upgrade, which should require Hive), and spawn every 30 seconds. Then you can poke around more often, or overlap spawns to crate a swarm that can deal double damage for ten seconds.
This creates interesting strategic opportunities in all zerg matchups, by deciding where to spawn locusts from and moving them around more often since they're faster. Swarm Hosts would be more focused on things like map control, scouting, harassing worker lines, or overlapping spawns to do damage for a few seconds. However, they wouldn't be great damage dealers with each spawn like they are now during a siege.
Think about how this can actually be a buff for Zerg in situations where they can prove useful. Zerg wouldn't lose as many lings to scout, it provides more micro for Swarm Hosts for better players to show skill with them, and doesn't make you a troll anymore.
They would most likely be used in smaller numbers to poke around at first, but would make a good support unit to scout ahead, or locusts can still make a nice damage-sink for other units instead of lings once the Enduring Locusts upgrade is researched and spawns can be overlapped.
Wouldn't it be more fun to try to overlap spawns in late game, and micro speedier locusts around in mid game as scouts and worker harass? Giving Swarm Host a reduced midgame role and a more interesting micro-based late game role would be beneficial for all races and matchups. If I want a fast harass unit that walks by ground and is cheap I actually just build zerglings. The idea with Swarm Hosts was to give zerg a much needed midgame longrange unit. Something that lets you attack if you claim mapcontrol. The free unit concept failed in that regard and thus I think it should just be removed and replaced with something that fits the intention. Should replace the free units with spikes that travel from underground, dealing damage to units in a line. Just sayin If it has less range than a collosus it's useless cause marauders immortal can kill it too easily if it has more range than collosus it's imba as hell. Lurkers would be stupid in sc2. Your argument literally is "marauders could kill it and if it had more range it would be imba" - what? That doesn't make sense. If marauders could kill lurkers easily thats completely fine. A unit doesn't have to be strong against everything. Thats why unit compositions exist. Yeah that's my argument pretty much. If it's range is too short you can't use it to effectivly siege which is what the swarm host is for (and even tho it takes forever with some viper help it's actaully not that horrible at it) If it's too long it's really hard to kill in a defensive position so pushing into zerg becomes very difficult. How will you use lurker to help zerg break people playing super defensive? Regardless how much whining is going on about the SH it does that job. What else would you use it for? To kill marines? We have banes for that. Lurker would be better? Arguable, mobile splash has advantages versus super sonic drop ships.
It's debateble that swarmhosts do their job. More often they cause stalemates more then end them. And imagine this scenario,. A terran has a planetary fortress isolated in a corner of the map. Unless you are Life no amounts of zergling can kill it but you can't send your army because the terran would attack when you are out of position. But imagine if you send 4 lurkers. The turret is down on the first or second attack, then all the SCVs then the planetary. Imagine a terran or protoss dropping a base with lurkers burrowed there. And imagine lurker drops...
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Another minor adjustment I can see is causing photon overcharge to cut energy replenishment by half on the nexus while the cannon is on. In this way, terran theoretically gains some slight window of time before protoss tech can be chronoboosted to get them out of the terran-aggression middlegame.
The key is very minor adjustments. I doubt the range and attack power/speed will be tweaked as this causes many more variables in the mix.
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On October 24 2014 03:39 mishimaBeef wrote:
Another minor adjustment I can see is causing photon overcharge to cut energy replenishment by half on the nexus while the cannon is on. In this way, terran theoretically gains some slight window of time before protoss tech can be chronoboosted to get them out of the terran-aggression middlegame.
The key is very minor adjustments. I doubt the range and attack power/speed will be tweaked as this causes many more variables in the mix.
What is your rationale for changing PO? As it is, Terrans don't need any sort of buff or handout in TvP - they're winning just fine.
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On October 24 2014 03:46 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 03:39 mishimaBeef wrote:
Another minor adjustment I can see is causing photon overcharge to cut energy replenishment by half on the nexus while the cannon is on. In this way, terran theoretically gains some slight window of time before protoss tech can be chronoboosted to get them out of the terran-aggression middlegame.
The key is very minor adjustments. I doubt the range and attack power/speed will be tweaked as this causes many more variables in the mix. What is your rationale for changing PO? As it is, Terrans don't need any sort of buff or handout in TvP - they're winning just fine.
What happened to agreeing with what other people said 
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On October 24 2014 03:49 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 03:46 DinoMight wrote:On October 24 2014 03:39 mishimaBeef wrote:
Another minor adjustment I can see is causing photon overcharge to cut energy replenishment by half on the nexus while the cannon is on. In this way, terran theoretically gains some slight window of time before protoss tech can be chronoboosted to get them out of the terran-aggression middlegame.
The key is very minor adjustments. I doubt the range and attack power/speed will be tweaked as this causes many more variables in the mix. What is your rationale for changing PO? As it is, Terrans don't need any sort of buff or handout in TvP - they're winning just fine. What happened to agreeing with what other people said
On October 24 2014 03:28 DinoMight wrote:I reserve the right to disagree with anyone at any time and for any reason
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On October 24 2014 03:20 DinoMight wrote:
If you want my opinion, here it is:
In WoL, you defended drops by spotting for them and placing a few units to deal with the MEDIVACS. You just needed enough stuff to kill the medivacs before they unloaded. A few Stalkers did the job just fine.
In HotS, Medivacs can now speed right over your Stalkers and drop the cargo anyway. Meaning you need to be able to kill the contents of the drop, not just the dropship itself. So Protoss is placed into a situation where it needs to have enough army to fight a drop anywhere a drop could land within a few seconds of spotting it on the minimap. So P ends up spending a lot of money on drop defense while T is free to simply not drop and take an expansion. Additionally, MMM > Gateway units, and our AoE units are expensive and slow. So you see players like Maru abusing that to take wins even WITH the MsC in play. Without Photon Overcharge I think Speedivacs would be a bit too abusive.
TLDR; speedivacs have significantly increased the cost of drop defense for Protoss and P needs something to compensate for that or they fall behind economically.
EDIT - also, maps have made it very difficult to move between your expansions and your main base by ground but very easy by air (Catallena, Deadwing, Nimbus) which further strengthens drop play from Terran. With speedivacs and no PO I wouldn't be surprised to see Protoss winrates drop to sub 40%.
This.
Speed for medivacs was the most unnecessary addition in HOTS. Drops should be powerful and multi-pronged aggression is a fun component of the game, but terran drops were already good. And it is just silly that having dedicated anti-air units in place does not stop a drop. A drop in a bad place should get punished. Speedivacs changed that dynamic and forced silly rebalancing of toss and zerg units.
I'd much rather have seen something that address the real issues T had. Maybe a disruptor net-style spell for the raven that temporarily protects an area against splash damage (or reduces it). That would make ravens more useful in low numbers and give terrans a better chance to fight late game colossi+storm armies as well as mass baneling armies.
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EPT
