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On August 16 2014 00:26 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 00:08 DinoMight wrote:
Aaaaand Pure Wasted doesn't even play the game. How am I not surprised. Please ignore everything he says from now on. He really has no idea what he's talking about. As an observer... as someone who is only watching a broadcasted game of StarCraft and making assumptions about what it takes to play the game at this level... how can you honestly think that your opinion of which race is more mechanically demanding matters at all?
There's a reason all sport commentators are former players. They have no credibility otherwise. Can you stop with your stupid comments like this? It brings the thread down alot. The interest i have right now is the numbers from pure. Maybe he is wrong, maybe he is right but atleast he has something it seems. And you talk out of your ass. If a sport commentator hasnt even played the sport he is commentating. If the man decides to study the strategies involved, why the players move like they do. Iam sure that man could become an expert in understanding the sport, the strategies behind it and even the mindgames behind it.
As a player you know things from personal experience that you can't possibly know as a viewer. For example, you know how much harder it is to make a simple pass on a wet soccer field. Or how hard it can be at times to tell if a player is off-sides or not. Or how looking away from a battle to warp in Protoss units while the fight is going on leaves you vulnerable to severe micro fuckups.
Again - there is a reason all sports commentators are former players.
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On August 16 2014 00:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 00:26 Foxxan wrote:On August 16 2014 00:08 DinoMight wrote:
Aaaaand Pure Wasted doesn't even play the game. How am I not surprised. Please ignore everything he says from now on. He really has no idea what he's talking about. As an observer... as someone who is only watching a broadcasted game of StarCraft and making assumptions about what it takes to play the game at this level... how can you honestly think that your opinion of which race is more mechanically demanding matters at all?
There's a reason all sport commentators are former players. They have no credibility otherwise. Can you stop with your stupid comments like this? It brings the thread down alot. The interest i have right now is the numbers from pure. Maybe he is wrong, maybe he is right but atleast he has something it seems. And you talk out of your ass. If a sport commentator hasnt even played the sport he is commentating. If the man decides to study the strategies involved, why the players move like they do. Iam sure that man could become an expert in understanding the sport, the strategies behind it and even the mindgames behind it. Also, you don't have to play a game to be able to know what you enjoy seeing in the game. There's a reason American Football has been changing its rules every few years to protect quarterbacks just because the viewership loves watching quarterbacks. The same can be done for non-American-Football sports/esports.
I was commenting on his analysis, not his opinion of what he likes to watch. His analysis is founded on what he thinks the players are doing based on what he's watching. There are a lot of really important things the players do that you can't observe and that you don't know unless you play the game.
For example - I didn't know until recently that hockey teams change their entire lineups many many many times per game. Why? Because I never played hockey and the camera never shows the change since it's on the puck. Sure, that might be a really simple thing... but there are more complicated aspects of the game to miss as well.
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On August 16 2014 00:41 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 00:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 16 2014 00:26 Foxxan wrote:On August 16 2014 00:08 DinoMight wrote:
Aaaaand Pure Wasted doesn't even play the game. How am I not surprised. Please ignore everything he says from now on. He really has no idea what he's talking about. As an observer... as someone who is only watching a broadcasted game of StarCraft and making assumptions about what it takes to play the game at this level... how can you honestly think that your opinion of which race is more mechanically demanding matters at all?
There's a reason all sport commentators are former players. They have no credibility otherwise. Can you stop with your stupid comments like this? It brings the thread down alot. The interest i have right now is the numbers from pure. Maybe he is wrong, maybe he is right but atleast he has something it seems. And you talk out of your ass. If a sport commentator hasnt even played the sport he is commentating. If the man decides to study the strategies involved, why the players move like they do. Iam sure that man could become an expert in understanding the sport, the strategies behind it and even the mindgames behind it. Also, you don't have to play a game to be able to know what you enjoy seeing in the game. There's a reason American Football has been changing its rules every few years to protect quarterbacks just because the viewership loves watching quarterbacks. The same can be done for non-American-Football sports/esports. I was commenting on his analysis, not his opinion of what he likes to watch. His analysis is founded on what he thinks the players are doing based on what he's watching.
I was merely adding to what Foxan was saying. Clarifying it mostly by showing how (in games outside of SC2) it is possible for the opinions of non-players to affect game balance. American Football does it, purely for the sake of entertaining its non-player viewer base.
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On August 16 2014 00:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 00:41 DinoMight wrote:On August 16 2014 00:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 16 2014 00:26 Foxxan wrote:On August 16 2014 00:08 DinoMight wrote:
Aaaaand Pure Wasted doesn't even play the game. How am I not surprised. Please ignore everything he says from now on. He really has no idea what he's talking about. As an observer... as someone who is only watching a broadcasted game of StarCraft and making assumptions about what it takes to play the game at this level... how can you honestly think that your opinion of which race is more mechanically demanding matters at all?
There's a reason all sport commentators are former players. They have no credibility otherwise. Can you stop with your stupid comments like this? It brings the thread down alot. The interest i have right now is the numbers from pure. Maybe he is wrong, maybe he is right but atleast he has something it seems. And you talk out of your ass. If a sport commentator hasnt even played the sport he is commentating. If the man decides to study the strategies involved, why the players move like they do. Iam sure that man could become an expert in understanding the sport, the strategies behind it and even the mindgames behind it. Also, you don't have to play a game to be able to know what you enjoy seeing in the game. There's a reason American Football has been changing its rules every few years to protect quarterbacks just because the viewership loves watching quarterbacks. The same can be done for non-American-Football sports/esports. I was commenting on his analysis, not his opinion of what he likes to watch. His analysis is founded on what he thinks the players are doing based on what he's watching. I was merely adding to what Foxan was saying. Clarifying it mostly by showing how (in games outside of SC2) it is possible for the opinions of non-players to affect game balance. American Football does it, purely for the sake of entertaining its non-player viewer base.
I don't think that's entirely true. They're also getting sued left and right by former players who claim concussions gave them permanent brain damage. To me that's a stronger driving force for change.
EDIT - One thing that I wish they'd do more again is the PoV camera in-game. I watched a bit through MC's vision one time and almost got nauseous from how fast the screen was moving. People would gain an appreciation for what's going on in a game if they actually understood the actions that went into it.
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On August 16 2014 00:48 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 00:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 16 2014 00:41 DinoMight wrote:On August 16 2014 00:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 16 2014 00:26 Foxxan wrote:On August 16 2014 00:08 DinoMight wrote:
Aaaaand Pure Wasted doesn't even play the game. How am I not surprised. Please ignore everything he says from now on. He really has no idea what he's talking about. As an observer... as someone who is only watching a broadcasted game of StarCraft and making assumptions about what it takes to play the game at this level... how can you honestly think that your opinion of which race is more mechanically demanding matters at all?
There's a reason all sport commentators are former players. They have no credibility otherwise. Can you stop with your stupid comments like this? It brings the thread down alot. The interest i have right now is the numbers from pure. Maybe he is wrong, maybe he is right but atleast he has something it seems. And you talk out of your ass. If a sport commentator hasnt even played the sport he is commentating. If the man decides to study the strategies involved, why the players move like they do. Iam sure that man could become an expert in understanding the sport, the strategies behind it and even the mindgames behind it. Also, you don't have to play a game to be able to know what you enjoy seeing in the game. There's a reason American Football has been changing its rules every few years to protect quarterbacks just because the viewership loves watching quarterbacks. The same can be done for non-American-Football sports/esports. I was commenting on his analysis, not his opinion of what he likes to watch. His analysis is founded on what he thinks the players are doing based on what he's watching. I was merely adding to what Foxan was saying. Clarifying it mostly by showing how (in games outside of SC2) it is possible for the opinions of non-players to affect game balance. American Football does it, purely for the sake of entertaining its non-player viewer base. I don't think that's entirely true. They're also getting sued left and right by former players who claim concussions gave them permanent brain damage. To me that's a stronger driving force for change. EDIT - One thing that I wish they'd do more again is the PoV camera in-game. I watched a bit through MC's vision one time and almost got nauseous from how fast the screen was moving. People would gain an appreciation for what's going on in a game if they actually understood the actions that went into it.
Great point. A lot of people still think all X does is a click, yeah sure...
But then again, i think terran is the hardest race to play mechanically.
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Northern Ireland25875 Posts
It's hard to tell this early but the state of the game at S level seems pretty good. It feels like the best players of each race are sticking around, Terrans are back and the more mediocre players are falling off a bit.
It's only the Ro32 of course in Kr but pretty damn good thus far as I see it, Rain, Zest, Soulkey sOO et al are still alive and the Terran upswing has been largely at the expense of players slightly below the level of those kind of guys.
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On August 16 2014 02:24 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's hard to tell this early but the state of the game at S level seems pretty good. It feels like the best players of each race are sticking around, Terrans are back and the more mediocre players are falling off a bit.
It's only the Ro32 of course in Kr but pretty damn good thus far as I see it, Rain, Zest, Soulkey sOO et al are still alive and the Terran upswing has been largely at the expense of players slightly below the level of those kind of guys.
I think we have a somewhat balanced game at the moment, where every race has a good chance to win the game. There are some situations that i feel should be fixed however, TvP late game, SCV pulls and raven deathballs just to name some.
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On August 16 2014 02:42 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 02:24 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's hard to tell this early but the state of the game at S level seems pretty good. It feels like the best players of each race are sticking around, Terrans are back and the more mediocre players are falling off a bit.
It's only the Ro32 of course in Kr but pretty damn good thus far as I see it, Rain, Zest, Soulkey sOO et al are still alive and the Terran upswing has been largely at the expense of players slightly below the level of those kind of guys. I think we have a somewhat balanced game at the moment, where every race has a good chance to win the game. There are some situations that i feel should be fixed however, TvP late game, SCV pulls and raven deathballs just to name some.
If the game is somewhat balanced I'd rather leave it alone for a while and let people come up with strategies on their own. Didn't someone go for bio + thor + ghosts the other day and win in GSL vs P?
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On August 16 2014 02:54 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 02:42 Morbidius wrote:On August 16 2014 02:24 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's hard to tell this early but the state of the game at S level seems pretty good. It feels like the best players of each race are sticking around, Terrans are back and the more mediocre players are falling off a bit.
It's only the Ro32 of course in Kr but pretty damn good thus far as I see it, Rain, Zest, Soulkey sOO et al are still alive and the Terran upswing has been largely at the expense of players slightly below the level of those kind of guys. I think we have a somewhat balanced game at the moment, where every race has a good chance to win the game. There are some situations that i feel should be fixed however, TvP late game, SCV pulls and raven deathballs just to name some. If the game is somewhat balanced I'd rather leave it alone for a while and let people come up with strategies on their own. Didn't someone go for bio + thor + ghosts the other day and win in GSL vs P?
Bbyong also tried meching 3 different protoss in SPL in a row and it worked once. I think weird strategies can work if the opponent just gets mindfucked due to never seeing it before. One thing I want to see more of is skyterran deathball in super lategame tvz.
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On August 16 2014 02:54 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 02:42 Morbidius wrote:On August 16 2014 02:24 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's hard to tell this early but the state of the game at S level seems pretty good. It feels like the best players of each race are sticking around, Terrans are back and the more mediocre players are falling off a bit.
It's only the Ro32 of course in Kr but pretty damn good thus far as I see it, Rain, Zest, Soulkey sOO et al are still alive and the Terran upswing has been largely at the expense of players slightly below the level of those kind of guys. I think we have a somewhat balanced game at the moment, where every race has a good chance to win the game. There are some situations that i feel should be fixed however, TvP late game, SCV pulls and raven deathballs just to name some. If the game is somewhat balanced I'd rather leave it alone for a while and let people come up with strategies on their own. Didn't someone go for bio + thor + ghosts the other day and win in GSL vs P?
Against Phoenix/colossi, which i think is a great choice because double armories become very important in that situation. I don't see a point to it against more ''standard'' compositions.
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On August 16 2014 03:00 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On August 16 2014 02:42 Morbidius wrote:On August 16 2014 02:24 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's hard to tell this early but the state of the game at S level seems pretty good. It feels like the best players of each race are sticking around, Terrans are back and the more mediocre players are falling off a bit.
It's only the Ro32 of course in Kr but pretty damn good thus far as I see it, Rain, Zest, Soulkey sOO et al are still alive and the Terran upswing has been largely at the expense of players slightly below the level of those kind of guys. I think we have a somewhat balanced game at the moment, where every race has a good chance to win the game. There are some situations that i feel should be fixed however, TvP late game, SCV pulls and raven deathballs just to name some. If the game is somewhat balanced I'd rather leave it alone for a while and let people come up with strategies on their own. Didn't someone go for bio + thor + ghosts the other day and win in GSL vs P? Against Phoenix/colossi, which i think is a great choice because double armories become very important in that situation. I don't see a point to it against more ''standard'' compositions.
pretty sure pheonix colossus can be considered a standard comp from now on as it was seen around 20 times since the last patch
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Well I wasn't saying bio thor ghost is a "standard" comp at all, but I'm just saying that it's an innovative response to a build that has been around for a while now (phoenix colossus).
Given time people always come up with new ways to play, so long as the game is not incredibly biased towards one side (which it's not right now).
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On August 16 2014 02:24 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's hard to tell this early but the state of the game at S level seems pretty good. It feels like the best players of each race are sticking around, Terrans are back and the more mediocre players are falling off a bit.
It's only the Ro32 of course in Kr but pretty damn good thus far as I see it, Rain, Zest, Soulkey sOO et al are still alive and the Terran upswing has been largely at the expense of players slightly below the level of those kind of guys.
We haven't ever really had a time where balance was great, and every time Blizz left the game alone the balance became worse over time, as opposed to brood war where it would become better over time. I think we just have to wait for the inevitable terran or protoss domination for this patch until everyone is sick of the balance again. It's really sad imo, the constant balance problems halfway delegitimize sc2 as an esports. Even Flash said that no one was scared of him, since he played terran, and now after the patch he is maybe the top player in the world but it's because of the patch, not only his skill. There are some indications that balance might really be superior this time around just because some of the top players have become so good and can transcend minor balance issues, but only time will tell.
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On August 16 2014 00:08 DinoMight wrote:
Aaaaand Pure Wasted doesn't even play the game. How am I not surprised. Please ignore everything he says from now on. He really has no idea what he's talking about. As an observer... as someone who is only watching a broadcasted game of StarCraft and making assumptions about what it takes to play the game at this level... how can you honestly think that your opinion of which race is more mechanically demanding matters at all?
There's a reason all sport commentators are former players. They have no credibility otherwise.
Oh my. I'm shocked at this unforeseen turn of events. You jump desperately onto information I give up willingly when no one asked me for it, and use that information as a life raft to continue talking out of your ass and ignoring actual research that completely invalidates what you believe.
How can you honestly think that YOUR opinion matters? You're not a Korean pro, so the amount you know from personal experience is only marginally higher than what I know. Only GSL champions should be allowed to talk in this thread. This whole forum, even! Who are we to have any opinions at all? Who are we to look at a game and make observations?
In fact, GSL champions are probably biased as fuck, and what they do know, they know on an instinctive level that they can't vocalize outside of a game. So nobody in the entire universe is qualified to talk about game mechanics or game balance.
If it makes you feel any better, I was in Gold league in WOL. But I'm sure that now that HOTS is out, I'm no longer capable of noticing things that happen on the screen.
On August 16 2014 00:40 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 00:26 Foxxan wrote:On August 16 2014 00:08 DinoMight wrote:
Aaaaand Pure Wasted doesn't even play the game. How am I not surprised. Please ignore everything he says from now on. He really has no idea what he's talking about. As an observer... as someone who is only watching a broadcasted game of StarCraft and making assumptions about what it takes to play the game at this level... how can you honestly think that your opinion of which race is more mechanically demanding matters at all?
There's a reason all sport commentators are former players. They have no credibility otherwise. Can you stop with your stupid comments like this? It brings the thread down alot. The interest i have right now is the numbers from pure. Maybe he is wrong, maybe he is right but atleast he has something it seems. And you talk out of your ass. If a sport commentator hasnt even played the sport he is commentating. If the man decides to study the strategies involved, why the players move like they do. Iam sure that man could become an expert in understanding the sport, the strategies behind it and even the mindgames behind it. As a player you know things from personal experience that you can't possibly know as a viewer. For example, you know how much harder it is to make a simple pass on a wet soccer field. Or how hard it can be at times to tell if a player is off-sides or not. Or how looking away from a battle to warp in Protoss units while the fight is going on leaves you vulnerable to severe micro fuckups. Again - there is a reason all sports commentators are former players.
But we're not talking about strategy. We're not talking about decisions. We're talking strictly and exclusively about mechanical clicking. We're talking about actions in combat.
I paused the battle every two seconds and rewound to make sure I missed as little as possible. If you still think I missed something, WATCH THE GAME AND TELL ME I MISSED IT. That is how simple your counter-argument is. Stop being lazy and talking out of your ass, go watch the game, and prove me wrong. And if you can find 40 missed actions for Zest and 0 for Maru, then Zest and Maru will be on equal footing and I will absolutely concede that high level PvT takes the same amount of mechanical skill from both sides.
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You make yourself look like a fool as soon as you claimed Protoss required a third of the mechanical skill that Terran requires. I don't even know how anyone could rationally believe such a thing - if Protoss was genuinely three times easier to play than Terran, we would be seeing far more imbalance than 40%-60%.
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On August 16 2014 05:06 r691175002 wrote:
You make yourself look like a fool as soon as you claimed Protoss required a third of the mechanical skill that Terran requires. I don't even know how anyone could rationally believe such a thing - if Protoss was genuinely three times easier to play than Terran, we would be seeing far more imbalance than 40%-60%.
We are seeing huge imbalance. TvT is the least played MU because Terran is by far the least played race at higher levels of play. Winrates are not a reliable source of information on balance, they are very, very easy to break and mislead. I posted this example earlier:
Imagine that we revert back to the previous patch, which just about everybody will agree was still a terrible place for Terrans. Now imagine on top of that that every single Terran except Maru simply stops playing. Taeja's wrists catch on fire and he suffers second-degree burns, Polt is too busy filming The Avengers 2, Bomber goes into the military where he becomes a four-star general, Innovation joins Byun on his pilgrimage in the mountains of China, and every other Terran just straight up quits in frustration. Maru is literally the only Terran left in existence. With me so far? Now imagine that Maru plays in every single premier tournament.
For every single loss "Terran" (Maru) suffers, they will win 10, maybe 20 times as much. He won't win every single tournament, but he'll place within the top 8 of anything loaded with Koreans and in the top 1 of everything that isn't.
Do you see the problem? Maru is so good that he was doing really, really, really well even when Terran was underpowered. Not only do the winrates not indicate imbalance, in this hypothetical they are actually outright lying and telling us that Terran is the best race in the history of all RTS games ever made, when in fact it's just Maru (or, in reality, a slew of top-tier Koreans) who are simply that damn good.
Also, I didn't "claim" Protoss required that much less, I looked at a high level game and I saw it. If you disagree, look at another game and write up all the things you see the same way I did. Argue with my research, please, not with the conclusions that are inevitably drawn from it.
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On August 16 2014 04:55 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 00:08 DinoMight wrote:
Aaaaand Pure Wasted doesn't even play the game. How am I not surprised. Please ignore everything he says from now on. He really has no idea what he's talking about. As an observer... as someone who is only watching a broadcasted game of StarCraft and making assumptions about what it takes to play the game at this level... how can you honestly think that your opinion of which race is more mechanically demanding matters at all?
There's a reason all sport commentators are former players. They have no credibility otherwise. Oh my. I'm shocked at this unforeseen turn of events. You jump desperately onto information I give up willingly when no one asked me for it, and use that information as a life raft to continue talking out of your ass and ignoring actual research that completely invalidates what you believe. How can you honestly think that YOUR opinion matters? You're not a Korean pro, so the amount you know from personal experience is only marginally higher than what I know. Only GSL champions should be allowed to talk in this thread. This whole forum, even! Who are we to have any opinions at all? Who are we to look at a game and make observations? In fact, GSL champions are probably biased as fuck, and what they do know, they know on an instinctive level that they can't vocalize outside of a game. So nobody in the entire universe is qualified to talk about game mechanics or game balance. If it makes you feel any better, I was in Gold league in WOL. But I'm sure that now that HOTS is out, I'm no longer capable of noticing things that happen on the screen. Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 00:40 DinoMight wrote:On August 16 2014 00:26 Foxxan wrote:On August 16 2014 00:08 DinoMight wrote:
Aaaaand Pure Wasted doesn't even play the game. How am I not surprised. Please ignore everything he says from now on. He really has no idea what he's talking about. As an observer... as someone who is only watching a broadcasted game of StarCraft and making assumptions about what it takes to play the game at this level... how can you honestly think that your opinion of which race is more mechanically demanding matters at all?
There's a reason all sport commentators are former players. They have no credibility otherwise. Can you stop with your stupid comments like this? It brings the thread down alot. The interest i have right now is the numbers from pure. Maybe he is wrong, maybe he is right but atleast he has something it seems. And you talk out of your ass. If a sport commentator hasnt even played the sport he is commentating. If the man decides to study the strategies involved, why the players move like they do. Iam sure that man could become an expert in understanding the sport, the strategies behind it and even the mindgames behind it. As a player you know things from personal experience that you can't possibly know as a viewer. For example, you know how much harder it is to make a simple pass on a wet soccer field. Or how hard it can be at times to tell if a player is off-sides or not. Or how looking away from a battle to warp in Protoss units while the fight is going on leaves you vulnerable to severe micro fuckups. Again - there is a reason all sports commentators are former players. But we're not talking about strategy. We're not talking about decisions. We're talking strictly and exclusively about mechanical clicking. We're talking about actions in combat.I paused the battle every two seconds and rewound to make sure I missed as little as possible. If you still think I missed something, WATCH THE GAME AND TELL ME I MISSED IT. That is how simple your counter-argument is. Stop being lazy and talking out of your ass, go watch the game, and prove me wrong. And if you can find 40 missed actions for Zest and 0 for Maru, then Zest and Maru will be on equal footing and I will absolutely concede that high level PvT takes the same amount of mechanical skill from both sides.
You are so wrong on so many different levels.
First of all, you've chosen Maru as your example. Maru's whole strategy revolves around the fact that he has ungodly APM and can beat people down with pure mechanics. So your example doesn't show that Terran takes more mechanical skill than Protoss. It shows that if one chooses to play a style that requires and rewards mechanical skill, they will probably need more mechanics than their opponent. Which is a given.
Second, you don't have the experience to know what you're looking at. It's obvious by your methodology. You're counting the number of times things on the screen move. Like I said before, there are things that need to be done that you, the viewer, don't get to see. Zest needs to make sure that while this battle is happening he's not also being dropped in one of his bases (because that's a really probable event) so he needs to be glancing at his minimap during the fight. Zest also has to look away from the fight in order to warp in more units (something Maru doesn't have to do).
Third, there are many ways of playing Protoss. Some revolve around trickery and strategy. Some revolve around having INSANE micro (I refer you to Arium's Blink allin on Catallena, WCS AM). And some rely on out multitasking your opponent to death (Liquid Hero vs. Xigua on Deadwing). You can see him harassing 3 bases at once (including a storm drop, which isn't an a-move thing) while his main army is attacking.
I may not be a GSL veteran, but I play this game on a daily basis at a high enough level to recognize that you have no idea what you're talking about.
EDIT - I know both examples I gave were PvZ but those are fresh on my mind as I've been busy and haven't watched much lately.
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On August 16 2014 05:06 r691175002 wrote:
You make yourself look like a fool as soon as you claimed Protoss required a third of the mechanical skill that Terran requires. I don't even know how anyone could rationally believe such a thing - if Protoss was genuinely three times easier to play than Terran, we would be seeing far more imbalance than 40%-60%.
Also this.
Like, seriously. This.
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On August 16 2014 05:47 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 05:06 r691175002 wrote:
You make yourself look like a fool as soon as you claimed Protoss required a third of the mechanical skill that Terran requires. I don't even know how anyone could rationally believe such a thing - if Protoss was genuinely three times easier to play than Terran, we would be seeing far more imbalance than 40%-60%. Also this. Like, seriously. This.
Could we please stay on topic here. The way you attack Wasted personally is disgusting.
We are not talking about all TvP engagements here, but especially about late game situations with MMMGV against the fully developed deathball. There are actually very few terrans that feel comfortable in such a situation, exactly because it is very hard to win these fights even when you are ahead. The reason for this is that terran has to do more stuff in a shorter timeframe to trade even. There is just more that can go wrong. Wasted proofed this at least for one game by counting the army control actions.
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On August 16 2014 05:33 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2014 04:55 pure.Wasted wrote:On August 16 2014 00:08 DinoMight wrote:
Aaaaand Pure Wasted doesn't even play the game. How am I not surprised. Please ignore everything he says from now on. He really has no idea what he's talking about. As an observer... as someone who is only watching a broadcasted game of StarCraft and making assumptions about what it takes to play the game at this level... how can you honestly think that your opinion of which race is more mechanically demanding matters at all?
There's a reason all sport commentators are former players. They have no credibility otherwise. Oh my. I'm shocked at this unforeseen turn of events. You jump desperately onto information I give up willingly when no one asked me for it, and use that information as a life raft to continue talking out of your ass and ignoring actual research that completely invalidates what you believe. How can you honestly think that YOUR opinion matters? You're not a Korean pro, so the amount you know from personal experience is only marginally higher than what I know. Only GSL champions should be allowed to talk in this thread. This whole forum, even! Who are we to have any opinions at all? Who are we to look at a game and make observations? In fact, GSL champions are probably biased as fuck, and what they do know, they know on an instinctive level that they can't vocalize outside of a game. So nobody in the entire universe is qualified to talk about game mechanics or game balance. If it makes you feel any better, I was in Gold league in WOL. But I'm sure that now that HOTS is out, I'm no longer capable of noticing things that happen on the screen. On August 16 2014 00:40 DinoMight wrote:On August 16 2014 00:26 Foxxan wrote:On August 16 2014 00:08 DinoMight wrote:
Aaaaand Pure Wasted doesn't even play the game. How am I not surprised. Please ignore everything he says from now on. He really has no idea what he's talking about. As an observer... as someone who is only watching a broadcasted game of StarCraft and making assumptions about what it takes to play the game at this level... how can you honestly think that your opinion of which race is more mechanically demanding matters at all?
There's a reason all sport commentators are former players. They have no credibility otherwise. Can you stop with your stupid comments like this? It brings the thread down alot. The interest i have right now is the numbers from pure. Maybe he is wrong, maybe he is right but atleast he has something it seems. And you talk out of your ass. If a sport commentator hasnt even played the sport he is commentating. If the man decides to study the strategies involved, why the players move like they do. Iam sure that man could become an expert in understanding the sport, the strategies behind it and even the mindgames behind it. As a player you know things from personal experience that you can't possibly know as a viewer. For example, you know how much harder it is to make a simple pass on a wet soccer field. Or how hard it can be at times to tell if a player is off-sides or not. Or how looking away from a battle to warp in Protoss units while the fight is going on leaves you vulnerable to severe micro fuckups. Again - there is a reason all sports commentators are former players. But we're not talking about strategy. We're not talking about decisions. We're talking strictly and exclusively about mechanical clicking. We're talking about actions in combat.I paused the battle every two seconds and rewound to make sure I missed as little as possible. If you still think I missed something, WATCH THE GAME AND TELL ME I MISSED IT. That is how simple your counter-argument is. Stop being lazy and talking out of your ass, go watch the game, and prove me wrong. And if you can find 40 missed actions for Zest and 0 for Maru, then Zest and Maru will be on equal footing and I will absolutely concede that high level PvT takes the same amount of mechanical skill from both sides. You are so wrong on so many different levels. First of all, you've chosen Maru as your example. Maru's whole strategy revolves around the fact that he has ungodly APM and can beat people down with pure mechanics. So your example doesn't show that Terran takes more mechanical skill than Protoss. It shows that if one chooses to play a style that requires and rewards mechanical skill, they will probably need more mechanics than their opponent. Which is a given.
Maru vs Zest. Isn't Zest the be-all end-all of Protoss micro in macro games? If Zest doesn't measure up, which Protoss could?!
Which series do you want me to look at? What would be a more fair example? Innovation vs herO or Zest from last season GSL? Polt vs Classic or Rain at IEM Cologne? Flash vs herO at San Disk Invitational? But wait, all of these Terrans are known for ungodly micro, so I guess none of those games would prove anything to you. Huh. What a magical coincidence. And no Protoss is known for measuring up to that level of micro. Huh. What a coincidence.
Or maybe it's not a crazy coincidence... and is actually a result of the way the races are designed? Which is something that we can observe and then criticize? I'm sure I'm blowing your mind.
Second, you don't have the experience to know what you're looking at. It's obvious by your methodology. You're counting the number of times things on the screen move. Like I said before, there are things that need to be done that you, the viewer, don't get to see. Zest needs to make sure that while this battle is happening he's not also being dropped in one of his bases (because that's a really probable event) so he needs to be glancing at his minimap during the fight. Zest also has to look away from the fight in order to warp in more units (something Maru doesn't have to do).
That's not mechanics. We're talking about ONLY MECHANICS. ONLY MECHANICS. This has been stated a THOUSAND TIMES already. Please, for the love of God, don't quote this and say with great shock and startlement, "But I didn't know we were talking about ONLY MECHANICS! If I did I would have never gotten into this discussion because ONLY MECHANICS are meaningless!"
Literally the only thing I care about in this conversation is how many times players have to click in combat. The more clicks you have to make, the higher the chance that you'll click wrong or fail to click in time, the higher the margin of error, the more risk that something will go horribly wrong unless you're 100% on top of your game.
By the way, if you actually watched the game, you'd see that Maru paid a lot more attention to his newly-built units than Zest did, because he microed the hell out of his reinforcements that came under attack, while Zest did zero counter-micro. And you'd also see that Zest was doing Zealot runbys of Maru, like the one that targeted Maru's reinforcements, so Maru had to pay just as much attention to his minimap as Zest did.
Third, there are many ways of playing Protoss. Some revolve around trickery and strategy. Some revolve around having INSANE micro (I refer you to Arium's Blink allin on Catallena, WCS AM). And some rely on out multitasking your opponent to death (Liquid Hero vs. Xigua on Deadwing). You can see him harassing 3 bases at once (including a storm drop, which isn't an a-move thing) while his main army is attacking.
I may not be a GSL veteran, but I play this game on a daily basis at a high enough level to recognize that you have no idea what you're talking about.
EDIT - I know both examples I gave were PvZ but those are fresh on my mind as I've been busy and haven't watched much lately.
You're moving the goal posts on this argument. I don't care about all the ways you can play Protoss, you can have a billion and one if you want, the only thing I care about is that every single one of them is as mechanically challenging as playing Terran in TvP.
Please provide a link to the Hero vs Xigua game, I'd like to check it out. Although, the fact that you have to bring this particular example up at all really should tell you something. I could comfortably pick a Proleague TvP at random, and as long as it's a macro game I'd be sure to find at least two drops happening at the same time at least once in the game, if not also a Marauder runby on the third Nexus. Regardless of which Terran is playing. This shouldn't be a special thing for Protoss. This should have to happen every single game.
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