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On June 23 2014 14:20 Popkiller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 12:55 iS.Mike wrote:
I guess I'll post this here since I'm getting hate in the MLG thread for it.
Protoss has won 8 out of 12 of the premier tournaments in 2014 and obtained 15 out of 24 of the top 2 finishes in those tournaments. Even at the end of Wings of Liberty, zerg didn't have this winning percentage. Someone care to explain these results without citing relative race strengths or is it necessary to address balance now?
hmm, this is the first time I've looked at this. What's more interesting to me is that 7 different protosses make up those 8 tournament wins, the only repeat being Zest. If Classic wins GSL, that will be 8/9 tournament wins going to unique protosses. Expanding to include late 2013, October-December, that adds 5 toss wins and three new players: Dear, Rain, PartinG, which makes 10/13 wins by different players, or 76%. To compare that to Terran, there have been 4 premier tournament wins during that timeframe, and 100% have gone to Taeja. If you add in the rest of 2013, Terran gains a little favor. January-September adds 4 more toss premier tournament wins, and adds Stardust and duckdeok to the mix, bringing it to 12/17 wins going to unique players, or 70%. As for Terran, between all of 2013 and 2014 there have been 16 wins, and 8 unique players (7 of those freaking wins are Taeja, and 3 are Polt). It could suggest a lower skill requirement for toss, that a larger number of unique players have been able to reach the level needed to win a premier tournament. The alternative is that, all of a sudden, in unison, Protoss players have become the most disciplined, hard working players out there.
thanks for going through the tourney results over the last few years to make the point, really shows the difference. i'd like to check the numbers for wins by zerg players but i suspect the numbers would be similar to terran results (some wins by pretty consistent players, no big surprises such as duckdeok or dear and so on). seems like protoss has an edge in my opinion, and it's even more damning when you consider that some of those protoss players have completely disappeared from prominence or only really had one big win. i think the game is mostly balanced, especially since the game isn't played on level ground every time (mental/physical conditions of the players, not always at the top of their game) but these kinds of numbers make me wonder =O
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On June 23 2014 14:20 Popkiller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 12:55 iS.Mike wrote:
I guess I'll post this here since I'm getting hate in the MLG thread for it.
Protoss has won 8 out of 12 of the premier tournaments in 2014 and obtained 15 out of 24 of the top 2 finishes in those tournaments. Even at the end of Wings of Liberty, zerg didn't have this winning percentage. Someone care to explain these results without citing relative race strengths or is it necessary to address balance now?
hmm, this is the first time I've looked at this. What's more interesting to me is that 7 different protosses make up those 8 tournament wins, the only repeat being Zest. If Classic wins GSL, that will be 8/9 tournament wins going to unique protosses. Expanding to include late 2013, October-December, that adds 5 toss wins and three new players: Dear, Rain, PartinG, which makes 10/13 wins by different players, or 76%. To compare that to Terran, there have been 4 premier tournament wins during that timeframe, and 100% have gone to Taeja. If you add in the rest of 2013, Terran gains a little favor. January-September adds 4 more toss premier tournament wins, and adds Stardust and duckdeok to the mix, bringing it to 12/17 wins going to unique players, or 70%. As for Terran, between all of 2013 and 2014 there have been 16 wins, and 8 unique players (7 of those freaking wins are Taeja, and 3 are Polt). It could suggest a lower skill requirement for toss, that a larger number of unique players have been able to reach the level needed to win a premier tournament. The alternative is that, all of a sudden, in unison, Protoss players have become the most disciplined, hard working players out there.
I'm pretty sure the 14 sight range on MSC had a major influence on all of those winter games, particularly blink all-ins in PvT. I'm not sure whether or not Protoss is currently OP, but they had a pretty big nerf since then.
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On June 23 2014 14:45 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 14:20 Popkiller wrote:On June 23 2014 12:55 iS.Mike wrote:
I guess I'll post this here since I'm getting hate in the MLG thread for it.
Protoss has won 8 out of 12 of the premier tournaments in 2014 and obtained 15 out of 24 of the top 2 finishes in those tournaments. Even at the end of Wings of Liberty, zerg didn't have this winning percentage. Someone care to explain these results without citing relative race strengths or is it necessary to address balance now?
hmm, this is the first time I've looked at this. What's more interesting to me is that 7 different protosses make up those 8 tournament wins, the only repeat being Zest. If Classic wins GSL, that will be 8/9 tournament wins going to unique protosses. Expanding to include late 2013, October-December, that adds 5 toss wins and three new players: Dear, Rain, PartinG, which makes 10/13 wins by different players, or 76%. To compare that to Terran, there have been 4 premier tournament wins during that timeframe, and 100% have gone to Taeja. If you add in the rest of 2013, Terran gains a little favor. January-September adds 4 more toss premier tournament wins, and adds Stardust and duckdeok to the mix, bringing it to 12/17 wins going to unique players, or 70%. As for Terran, between all of 2013 and 2014 there have been 16 wins, and 8 unique players (7 of those freaking wins are Taeja, and 3 are Polt). It could suggest a lower skill requirement for toss, that a larger number of unique players have been able to reach the level needed to win a premier tournament. The alternative is that, all of a sudden, in unison, Protoss players have become the most disciplined, hard working players out there. I'm pretty sure the 14 sight range on MSC had a major influence on all of those winter games, particularly blink all-ins in PvT. I'm not sure whether or not Protoss is currently OP, but they had a pretty big nerf since then.
Protoss will always be OP. Not because of game balance or game design or maps or any other rational reason. Protoss is OP because Terran and Zerg players say that it is OP. There has been a trend of top players going on twitter after loses and complaining about balance, the majority of these players are terran and zerg. Some do it for popularity (Taeja) and others because they believe that they lost because of game imbalance. Whatever the reason, Protoss has become a sort of scapegoat regardless of actual problems with the numbers. This is sad because instead of acknowledging defeat and working to improve some players just say "protoss easy race" while thinking "the only reason he beat me is because he played protoss".
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On June 23 2014 17:41 MrLightning wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 14:45 TheDougler wrote:On June 23 2014 14:20 Popkiller wrote:On June 23 2014 12:55 iS.Mike wrote:
I guess I'll post this here since I'm getting hate in the MLG thread for it.
Protoss has won 8 out of 12 of the premier tournaments in 2014 and obtained 15 out of 24 of the top 2 finishes in those tournaments. Even at the end of Wings of Liberty, zerg didn't have this winning percentage. Someone care to explain these results without citing relative race strengths or is it necessary to address balance now?
hmm, this is the first time I've looked at this. What's more interesting to me is that 7 different protosses make up those 8 tournament wins, the only repeat being Zest. If Classic wins GSL, that will be 8/9 tournament wins going to unique protosses. Expanding to include late 2013, October-December, that adds 5 toss wins and three new players: Dear, Rain, PartinG, which makes 10/13 wins by different players, or 76%. To compare that to Terran, there have been 4 premier tournament wins during that timeframe, and 100% have gone to Taeja. If you add in the rest of 2013, Terran gains a little favor. January-September adds 4 more toss premier tournament wins, and adds Stardust and duckdeok to the mix, bringing it to 12/17 wins going to unique players, or 70%. As for Terran, between all of 2013 and 2014 there have been 16 wins, and 8 unique players (7 of those freaking wins are Taeja, and 3 are Polt). It could suggest a lower skill requirement for toss, that a larger number of unique players have been able to reach the level needed to win a premier tournament. The alternative is that, all of a sudden, in unison, Protoss players have become the most disciplined, hard working players out there. I'm pretty sure the 14 sight range on MSC had a major influence on all of those winter games, particularly blink all-ins in PvT. I'm not sure whether or not Protoss is currently OP, but they had a pretty big nerf since then. Protoss will always be OP. Not because of game balance or game design or maps or any other rational reason. Protoss is OP because Terran and Zerg players say that it is OP. There has been a trend of top players going on twitter after loses and complaining about balance, the majority of these players are terran and zerg. Some do it for popularity (Taeja) and others because they believe that they lost because of game imbalance. Whatever the reason, Protoss has become a sort of scapegoat regardless of actual problems with the numbers. This is sad because instead of acknowledging defeat and working to improve some players just say "protoss easy race" while thinking "the only reason he beat me is because he played protoss".
People hate on Protoss because of the incredibly frustrating mechanics it has. Things like forcefield, time warp, warp in, overcharge, collosi, storm, which as a player feel like they take little effort from the Protoss while you're supposed to micro your fucking heart out. They''re sitting there turteling and making cannons, while the burden of making something happen is on you. It -FEELS- frustrating to play against Protoss, and as such, people think their own race takes more effort, thus Protoss is a more powerful race at equal level, thus they say Protoss OP.
True or not, that is my explanation for the Protoss OP calls.
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On June 23 2014 18:04 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 17:41 MrLightning wrote:On June 23 2014 14:45 TheDougler wrote:On June 23 2014 14:20 Popkiller wrote:On June 23 2014 12:55 iS.Mike wrote:
I guess I'll post this here since I'm getting hate in the MLG thread for it.
Protoss has won 8 out of 12 of the premier tournaments in 2014 and obtained 15 out of 24 of the top 2 finishes in those tournaments. Even at the end of Wings of Liberty, zerg didn't have this winning percentage. Someone care to explain these results without citing relative race strengths or is it necessary to address balance now?
hmm, this is the first time I've looked at this. What's more interesting to me is that 7 different protosses make up those 8 tournament wins, the only repeat being Zest. If Classic wins GSL, that will be 8/9 tournament wins going to unique protosses. Expanding to include late 2013, October-December, that adds 5 toss wins and three new players: Dear, Rain, PartinG, which makes 10/13 wins by different players, or 76%. To compare that to Terran, there have been 4 premier tournament wins during that timeframe, and 100% have gone to Taeja. If you add in the rest of 2013, Terran gains a little favor. January-September adds 4 more toss premier tournament wins, and adds Stardust and duckdeok to the mix, bringing it to 12/17 wins going to unique players, or 70%. As for Terran, between all of 2013 and 2014 there have been 16 wins, and 8 unique players (7 of those freaking wins are Taeja, and 3 are Polt). It could suggest a lower skill requirement for toss, that a larger number of unique players have been able to reach the level needed to win a premier tournament. The alternative is that, all of a sudden, in unison, Protoss players have become the most disciplined, hard working players out there. I'm pretty sure the 14 sight range on MSC had a major influence on all of those winter games, particularly blink all-ins in PvT. I'm not sure whether or not Protoss is currently OP, but they had a pretty big nerf since then. Protoss will always be OP. Not because of game balance or game design or maps or any other rational reason. Protoss is OP because Terran and Zerg players say that it is OP. There has been a trend of top players going on twitter after loses and complaining about balance, the majority of these players are terran and zerg. Some do it for popularity (Taeja) and others because they believe that they lost because of game imbalance. Whatever the reason, Protoss has become a sort of scapegoat regardless of actual problems with the numbers. This is sad because instead of acknowledging defeat and working to improve some players just say "protoss easy race" while thinking "the only reason he beat me is because he played protoss". People hate on Protoss because of the incredibly frustrating mechanics it has. Things like forcefield, time warp, warp in, overcharge, collosi, storm, which as a player feel like they take little effort from the Protoss while you're supposed to micro your fucking heart out. They''re sitting there turteling and making cannons, while the burden of making something happen is on you. It -FEELS- frustrating to play against Protoss, and as such, people think their own race takes more effort, thus Protoss is a more powerful race at equal level, thus they say Protoss OP. True or not, that is my explanation for the Protoss OP calls.
Things like this doesnt belong in an esport game.
You are supposed to be able to show your skills through micro and decision making.
Protoss dont have to. More Or less.
Just to be clear: There are still decision making and micro with protoss, but its to low!
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This is sad because instead of acknowledging defeat and working to improve some players just say "protoss easy race" while thinking "the only reason he beat me is because he played protoss".
Well, I sure as hell hope DRG didn't think to himself after losing that Scarlett's Protoss is better than his Zerg. For his mental sanity, you know.
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On June 23 2014 20:49 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +This is sad because instead of acknowledging defeat and working to improve some players just say "protoss easy race" while thinking "the only reason he beat me is because he played protoss". Well, I sure as hell hope DRG didn't think to himself after losing that Scarlett's Protoss is better than his Zerg. For his mental sanity, you know.
People are taking that game way too seriously. Fanboy fever I guess? Please show me a BO 7 Scarlett Protoss vs DRG Zerg and if Scarlett wins then all this 'anyone plays protoss and win' BS can be justified. Until then referencing that game to support any argument is like saying someone is the luckiest person in the world because they guessed correctly in a coin flip once.
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On June 23 2014 18:04 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 17:41 MrLightning wrote:On June 23 2014 14:45 TheDougler wrote:On June 23 2014 14:20 Popkiller wrote:On June 23 2014 12:55 iS.Mike wrote:
I guess I'll post this here since I'm getting hate in the MLG thread for it.
Protoss has won 8 out of 12 of the premier tournaments in 2014 and obtained 15 out of 24 of the top 2 finishes in those tournaments. Even at the end of Wings of Liberty, zerg didn't have this winning percentage. Someone care to explain these results without citing relative race strengths or is it necessary to address balance now?
hmm, this is the first time I've looked at this. What's more interesting to me is that 7 different protosses make up those 8 tournament wins, the only repeat being Zest. If Classic wins GSL, that will be 8/9 tournament wins going to unique protosses. Expanding to include late 2013, October-December, that adds 5 toss wins and three new players: Dear, Rain, PartinG, which makes 10/13 wins by different players, or 76%. To compare that to Terran, there have been 4 premier tournament wins during that timeframe, and 100% have gone to Taeja. If you add in the rest of 2013, Terran gains a little favor. January-September adds 4 more toss premier tournament wins, and adds Stardust and duckdeok to the mix, bringing it to 12/17 wins going to unique players, or 70%. As for Terran, between all of 2013 and 2014 there have been 16 wins, and 8 unique players (7 of those freaking wins are Taeja, and 3 are Polt). It could suggest a lower skill requirement for toss, that a larger number of unique players have been able to reach the level needed to win a premier tournament. The alternative is that, all of a sudden, in unison, Protoss players have become the most disciplined, hard working players out there. I'm pretty sure the 14 sight range on MSC had a major influence on all of those winter games, particularly blink all-ins in PvT. I'm not sure whether or not Protoss is currently OP, but they had a pretty big nerf since then. Protoss will always be OP. Not because of game balance or game design or maps or any other rational reason. Protoss is OP because Terran and Zerg players say that it is OP. There has been a trend of top players going on twitter after loses and complaining about balance, the majority of these players are terran and zerg. Some do it for popularity (Taeja) and others because they believe that they lost because of game imbalance. Whatever the reason, Protoss has become a sort of scapegoat regardless of actual problems with the numbers. This is sad because instead of acknowledging defeat and working to improve some players just say "protoss easy race" while thinking "the only reason he beat me is because he played protoss". People hate on Protoss because of the incredibly frustrating mechanics it has. Things like forcefield, time warp, warp in, overcharge, collosi, storm, which as a player feel like they take little effort from the Protoss while you're supposed to micro your fucking heart out. They''re sitting there turteling and making cannons, while the burden of making something happen is on you. It -FEELS- frustrating to play against Protoss, and as such, people think their own race takes more effort, thus Protoss is a more powerful race at equal level, thus they say Protoss OP. True or not, that is my explanation for the Protoss OP calls.
Pretty much this. Regardless of which race is better or worse, Protoss has too many gimmicks that require little effort. While the decision making, timings, and positioning required for protoss more or less equals the skill required to micro and macro terran/zerg, there are a lot of easy to do fluke wins. Dt's vs no spore? game automatically ends. Forcefield in general is a horribly designed. Oracles lol? 8 gate 1 gas that is not prepared for game ends, etc. Now these are all scoutable and preventable, but if you make a mistake and do not properly scout it it feels like you lose to an inferior player. Why am I able to occasionally fluke win any professional Zerg player with my protoss with under 100 apm when my zerg would lose to most of them 10-0? IMO Protoss as a race is poorly designed and needs to be completely reworked. With warpgate the way it is and forcefield the way it is, I do not see a way to ever have sc2 balanced.
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On June 23 2014 14:20 Popkiller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 12:55 iS.Mike wrote:
I guess I'll post this here since I'm getting hate in the MLG thread for it.
Protoss has won 8 out of 12 of the premier tournaments in 2014 and obtained 15 out of 24 of the top 2 finishes in those tournaments. Even at the end of Wings of Liberty, zerg didn't have this winning percentage. Someone care to explain these results without citing relative race strengths or is it necessary to address balance now?
hmm, this is the first time I've looked at this. What's more interesting to me is that 7 different protosses make up those 8 tournament wins, the only repeat being Zest. If Classic wins GSL, that will be 8/9 tournament wins going to unique protosses. Expanding to include late 2013, October-December, that adds 5 toss wins and three new players: Dear, Rain, PartinG, which makes 10/13 wins by different players, or 76%. To compare that to Terran, there have been 4 premier tournament wins during that timeframe, and 100% have gone to Taeja. If you add in the rest of 2013, Terran gains a little favor. January-September adds 4 more toss premier tournament wins, and adds Stardust and duckdeok to the mix, bringing it to 12/17 wins going to unique players, or 70%. As for Terran, between all of 2013 and 2014 there have been 16 wins, and 8 unique players (7 of those freaking wins are Taeja, and 3 are Polt). It could suggest a lower skill requirement for toss, that a larger number of unique players have been able to reach the level needed to win a premier tournament. The alternative is that, all of a sudden, in unison, Protoss players have become the most disciplined, hard working players out there.
I am not really a fan of statistical data, but I have to admit that over the last few months the sheer amount of "random" Protoss champions is really suspect.
2 base Protoss is so strong, it feels almost unbreakable by the other 2 races at present
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Immortal all-in in any variation and timing or anything at similar timings (7 gate?) is so hard to hold in ZvP, even when you know that and when its coming. You can get basically master when just doing this in PvZ and get your 50% winrate. For the other matchups I guess there are similar things.
Scarlett just showed with her game vs DRG how easy it is to get a chance on a freewin with protoss. There is seriously not more needed for this than some basic SC2 skills. This is not enough imo.
And it has never been different. 2010/11 protosses were 4-gating to master. I wonder what can be changed at protoss in the current meta. Imo not much.
I would like to see bio not being the predominant thing for terran anymore that it is now at the 3rd add-on. This way protoss counters could be removed and some units weakened. Same for zerg.
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I would like to come back to Scarlett's game yesterday, and show how relevant it is of the current balance of the game.
First I would like to state this : Scarlett is less skilled than DRG (no offense, DRG has more skills in SC2 than 99.99% players). I define skill as the combination of mechanics and general understanding of the game, in both of those fields, Scarlett is behind her Korean opponent. And she knows it. (As a proof, just look at the number of major tournaments he won, including GSL, something Scarlett will never be able to reach even in her sweetest dreams.)
Now look at the yesterday's game. The winner of a game is not always the more skilled player. Another important aspect of Starcraft is mind game. Let us be in DRG's mind for a moment : yesterday, after he won the first map. He knows he is in a good position, he knows how Scarlett hates ZvZ and he sees her deciding to play protoss. With the current state of the game and all the discussion about protoss all-ins, he KNOWS that she will all-in him. 100% sure. There is a strong biais in the mind game componnent here : DRG knows he is going to be all-ined hard. He must feel quite confident then because, he is used to counter protoss all-ins in major tournament and Scarlett, well it is the first time for her she plays protoss in an official competition. (and there is a enormous difference between an official game on stage and a ladder game). So DRG starts the game playing safe, until he sees the all-in arriving. At the moment Scarlett warped her first units, DRG had less drones than Scarlett had probes. He played safe and had the speedling upgrade on the way. So all the argument stating "Zergs plays greedy as fuck, they deserve to lose against all-ins" is not acceptable. We all know what happens next.
Summary : a Korean champion, GSL winner and one of the best zerg in the world has lost against a person who played protoss in a tournament for the first time and just blindly executed a build order. He knows she was going to all-in him but yet he lost.
Conclusion :
-You need less skills to win as protoss than any other races
-Protoss have way to many viable all-ins
-And those all-in are way to strong, even when scouted
-Scarlett has gigantics balls
-But maybe this will become standard in ZvZ and TvT 
PS : Concerning the statistics, I am sure you can add all those protoss "underdogs" who did good performance in major tournaments while being unknown before (this protoss german guy in DreamHack, or ToD in the previous DH for example)
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On June 23 2014 22:36 Awin wrote:I would like to come back to Scarlett's game yesterday, and show how relevant it is of the current balance of the game. First I would like to state this : Scarlett is less skilled than DRG (no offense, DRG has more skills in SC2 than 99.99% players). I define skill as the combination of mechanics and general understanding of the game, in both of those fields, Scarlett is behind her Korean opponent. And she knows it. (As a proof, just look at the number of major tournaments he won, including GSL, something Scarlett will never be able to reach even in her sweetest dreams.) Now look at the yesterday's game. The winner of a game is not always the more skilled player. Another important aspect of Starcraft is mind game. Let us be in DRG's mind for a moment : yesterday, after he won the first map. He knows he is in a good position, he knows how Scarlett hates ZvZ and he sees her deciding to play protoss. With the current state of the game and all the discussion about protoss all-ins, he KNOWS that she will all-in him. 100% sure. There is a strong biais in the mind game componnent here : DRG knows he is going to be all-ined hard. He must feel quite confident then because, he is used to counter protoss all-ins in major tournament and Scarlett, well it is the first time for her she plays protoss in an official competition. (and there is a enormous difference between an official game on stage and a ladder game). So DRG starts the game playing safe, until he sees the all-in arriving. At the moment Scarlett warped her first units, DRG had less drones than Scarlett had probes. He played safe and had the speedling upgrade on the way. So all the argument stating "Zergs plays greedy as fuck, they deserve to lose against all-ins" is not acceptable. We all know what happens next. Summary : a Korean champion, GSL winner and one of the best zerg in the world has lost against a person who played protoss in a tournament for the first time and just blindly executed a build order. He knows she was going to all-in him but yet he lost. Conclusion : -You need less skills to win as protoss than any other races -Protoss have way to many viable all-ins -And those all-in are way to strong, even when scouted -Scarlett has gigantics balls -But maybe this will become standard in ZvZ and TvT PS : Concerning the statistics, I am sure you can add all those protoss "underdogs" who did good performance in major tournaments while being unknown before (this protoss german guy in DreamHack, or ToD in the previous DH for example)
Ok, real talk. If you had the power to make Trap give back the 2014 MLG championship on the basis of the things you just said, would you?
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Finland97 Posts
On June 23 2014 22:55 MrLightning wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 22:36 Awin wrote:I would like to come back to Scarlett's game yesterday, and show how relevant it is of the current balance of the game. First I would like to state this : Scarlett is less skilled than DRG (no offense, DRG has more skills in SC2 than 99.99% players). I define skill as the combination of mechanics and general understanding of the game, in both of those fields, Scarlett is behind her Korean opponent. And she knows it. (As a proof, just look at the number of major tournaments he won, including GSL, something Scarlett will never be able to reach even in her sweetest dreams.) Now look at the yesterday's game. The winner of a game is not always the more skilled player. Another important aspect of Starcraft is mind game. Let us be in DRG's mind for a moment : yesterday, after he won the first map. He knows he is in a good position, he knows how Scarlett hates ZvZ and he sees her deciding to play protoss. With the current state of the game and all the discussion about protoss all-ins, he KNOWS that she will all-in him. 100% sure. There is a strong biais in the mind game componnent here : DRG knows he is going to be all-ined hard. He must feel quite confident then because, he is used to counter protoss all-ins in major tournament and Scarlett, well it is the first time for her she plays protoss in an official competition. (and there is a enormous difference between an official game on stage and a ladder game). So DRG starts the game playing safe, until he sees the all-in arriving. At the moment Scarlett warped her first units, DRG had less drones than Scarlett had probes. He played safe and had the speedling upgrade on the way. So all the argument stating "Zergs plays greedy as fuck, they deserve to lose against all-ins" is not acceptable. We all know what happens next. Summary : a Korean champion, GSL winner and one of the best zerg in the world has lost against a person who played protoss in a tournament for the first time and just blindly executed a build order. He knows she was going to all-in him but yet he lost. Conclusion : -You need less skills to win as protoss than any other races -Protoss have way to many viable all-ins -And those all-in are way to strong, even when scouted -Scarlett has gigantics balls -But maybe this will become standard in ZvZ and TvT PS : Concerning the statistics, I am sure you can add all those protoss "underdogs" who did good performance in major tournaments while being unknown before (this protoss german guy in DreamHack, or ToD in the previous DH for example) Ok, real talk. If you had the power to make Trap give back the 2014 MLG championship on the basis of the things you just said, would you?
That's a good way to discredit the point he is making. Would you remove all of the Zerg wins during the BL/infestor era and the GomTvT Era on basis that they were to strong at that point in time?
In the end it doesnt matter does it? Let's not derail his argument even more since im really curious on what the counter arguments is going to be.
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On June 23 2014 23:00 kiLen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 22:55 MrLightning wrote:On June 23 2014 22:36 Awin wrote:I would like to come back to Scarlett's game yesterday, and show how relevant it is of the current balance of the game. First I would like to state this : Scarlett is less skilled than DRG (no offense, DRG has more skills in SC2 than 99.99% players). I define skill as the combination of mechanics and general understanding of the game, in both of those fields, Scarlett is behind her Korean opponent. And she knows it. (As a proof, just look at the number of major tournaments he won, including GSL, something Scarlett will never be able to reach even in her sweetest dreams.) Now look at the yesterday's game. The winner of a game is not always the more skilled player. Another important aspect of Starcraft is mind game. Let us be in DRG's mind for a moment : yesterday, after he won the first map. He knows he is in a good position, he knows how Scarlett hates ZvZ and he sees her deciding to play protoss. With the current state of the game and all the discussion about protoss all-ins, he KNOWS that she will all-in him. 100% sure. There is a strong biais in the mind game componnent here : DRG knows he is going to be all-ined hard. He must feel quite confident then because, he is used to counter protoss all-ins in major tournament and Scarlett, well it is the first time for her she plays protoss in an official competition. (and there is a enormous difference between an official game on stage and a ladder game). So DRG starts the game playing safe, until he sees the all-in arriving. At the moment Scarlett warped her first units, DRG had less drones than Scarlett had probes. He played safe and had the speedling upgrade on the way. So all the argument stating "Zergs plays greedy as fuck, they deserve to lose against all-ins" is not acceptable. We all know what happens next. Summary : a Korean champion, GSL winner and one of the best zerg in the world has lost against a person who played protoss in a tournament for the first time and just blindly executed a build order. He knows she was going to all-in him but yet he lost. Conclusion : -You need less skills to win as protoss than any other races -Protoss have way to many viable all-ins -And those all-in are way to strong, even when scouted -Scarlett has gigantics balls -But maybe this will become standard in ZvZ and TvT PS : Concerning the statistics, I am sure you can add all those protoss "underdogs" who did good performance in major tournaments while being unknown before (this protoss german guy in DreamHack, or ToD in the previous DH for example) Ok, real talk. If you had the power to make Trap give back the 2014 MLG championship on the basis of the things you just said, would you? That's a good way to discredit the point he is making. Would you remove all of the Zerg wins during the BL/infestor era and the GomTvT Era on basis that they were to strong at that point in time? In the end it doesnt matter does it? Let's not derail his argument even more since im really curious on what the counter arguments is going to be.
Any counter argument will be shut down by the majority opinion which is currently anti-protoss. No one enjoys being the odd one out. Even people who play as protoss and have played as protoss since BW have jumped on the bandwagon. I dont care about balance but when someone suggests, even indirectly, that a champion is not worthy of his win because he plays a certain race, well that kinda seems unfair to me. The DRG vs Scarlett game was a entertaining diversion, that is all, not to be confused with key evidence of race imbalance. I could beat Flash in BW once in a BO 100, does not mean I am better than him.
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On June 23 2014 22:36 Awin wrote:I would like to come back to Scarlett's game yesterday, and show how relevant it is of the current balance of the game. First I would like to state this : Scarlett is less skilled than DRG (no offense, DRG has more skills in SC2 than 99.99% players). I define skill as the combination of mechanics and general understanding of the game, in both of those fields, Scarlett is behind her Korean opponent. And she knows it. (As a proof, just look at the number of major tournaments he won, including GSL, something Scarlett will never be able to reach even in her sweetest dreams.) Now look at the yesterday's game. The winner of a game is not always the more skilled player. Another important aspect of Starcraft is mind game. Let us be in DRG's mind for a moment : yesterday, after he won the first map. He knows he is in a good position, he knows how Scarlett hates ZvZ and he sees her deciding to play protoss. With the current state of the game and all the discussion about protoss all-ins, he KNOWS that she will all-in him. 100% sure. There is a strong biais in the mind game componnent here : DRG knows he is going to be all-ined hard. He must feel quite confident then because, he is used to counter protoss all-ins in major tournament and Scarlett, well it is the first time for her she plays protoss in an official competition. (and there is a enormous difference between an official game on stage and a ladder game). So DRG starts the game playing safe, until he sees the all-in arriving. At the moment Scarlett warped her first units, DRG had less drones than Scarlett had probes. He played safe and had the speedling upgrade on the way. So all the argument stating "Zergs plays greedy as fuck, they deserve to lose against all-ins" is not acceptable. We all know what happens next. Summary : a Korean champion, GSL winner and one of the best zerg in the world has lost against a person who played protoss in a tournament for the first time and just blindly executed a build order. He knows she was going to all-in him but yet he lost. Conclusion : -You need less skills to win as protoss than any other races -Protoss have way to many viable all-ins -And those all-in are way to strong, even when scouted -Scarlett has gigantics balls -But maybe this will become standard in ZvZ and TvT PS : Concerning the statistics, I am sure you can add all those protoss "underdogs" who did good performance in major tournaments while being unknown before (this protoss german guy in DreamHack, or ToD in the previous DH for example)
3 quick bases and no roach warren against this all-in he "knew was coming" is NOT playing safe. Please try thinking critically for a second.
Also, I'm extremely impressed that one game in a weekend tournament with evidence largely made up by you(Scarlett less skilled? Based on what evidence? DRG better than 99.99 percent of players? He won that GSL a year and a half ago not even in Heart of the Swarn, and has not been anywhere close to his best recently.)that you managed to draw FIVE conclusions. One game draws five conclusions based upon it's result, this is so devoid of logic.
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Nobody is arguing that these players should have these wins taken away from them. People are arguing that this game needs fixed before its popularity suffers any longer. When people watch sporting events, they go in with the assumption that both sides are starting on even footing and the better player/team will win. In sc2, anytime I see a TvP, I knew for a fact that the terran is fighting an uphill battle before the game even loads up. That is not a real competition, and it is not even remotely interesting or entertaining. It is depressing and it is harmful to the future of an 'esport' that so many people have invested so much time/effort/money into. It needs fixed and fast, and as long as this site tries to stifle any honest discussion outside of this thread it will only be more difficult to correct. Polt scouted a proxy stargate and there was nothing he could really do to punish it. That is garbage and anyone with a brain knows that.
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On June 23 2014 23:15 johnbongham wrote:
Nobody is arguing that these players should have these wins taken away from them. People are arguing that this game needs fixed before its popularity suffers any longer. When people watch sporting events, they go in with the assumption that both sides are starting on even footing and the better player/team will win. In sc2, anytime I see a TvP, I knew for a fact that the terran is fighting an uphill battle before the game even loads up. That is not a real competition, and it is not even remotely interesting or entertaining. It is depressing and it is harmful to the future of an 'esport' that so many people have invested so much time/effort/money into. It needs fixed and fast, and as long as this site tries to stifle any honest discussion outside of this thread it will only be more difficult to correct. Polt scouted a proxy stargate and there was nothing he could really do to punish it. That is garbage and anyone with a brain knows that.
I am sorry but a solution is not likely to materialize. I will tell you why. When a poster on this site makes a post concerning a balance complaint the mods censor this person because they dont want a possibly toxic discussion that could reflect negatively on the site and lose it potential investment. Similarly the job of every department at Blizzard Entertainment is to make the company profit. If profit is being generated then there is no reason for any significant change to the game, a otherwise risky move that could backfire. Anyone who thinks that Protoss will be changed because people provide reasonable arguments and collective pressure are naive.
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I wonder why the TL community isn't full of protoss pro players
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On June 23 2014 20:58 MrLightning wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 20:49 ZenithM wrote:This is sad because instead of acknowledging defeat and working to improve some players just say "protoss easy race" while thinking "the only reason he beat me is because he played protoss". Well, I sure as hell hope DRG didn't think to himself after losing that Scarlett's Protoss is better than his Zerg. For his mental sanity, you know. People are taking that game way too seriously. Fanboy fever I guess? Please show me a BO 7 Scarlett Protoss vs DRG Zerg and if Scarlett wins then all this 'anyone plays protoss and win' BS can be justified. Until then referencing that game to support any argument is like saying someone is the luckiest person in the world because they guessed correctly in a coin flip once.
Well, that's exactly what I was saying DRG should think ;D
But still, it's true that at this point, nobody is going to off-race, for example, Terran, to play against any race in the game. When you can dare to off-race in a competitive tournament against one of the best players in the world, I think there is something like "a problem". It doesn't make sense that you could think you've got a better chance beating the guy with your off-race, and we all know you usually do what you think will yield the best chance of you winning.
But people will say that, of course, Scarlett prepared her Protoss build for the map or for the opponent in particular/blahblahblah... so yeah, that game will remain an outlier. What truly happened however, is probably something along the lines of Scarlett saying: "Whatevs', I'll just try to Protoss the guy", and I don't think we should encourage that line of "decision making".
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Finland97 Posts
On June 23 2014 23:25 MrLightning wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 23:15 johnbongham wrote:
Nobody is arguing that these players should have these wins taken away from them. People are arguing that this game needs fixed before its popularity suffers any longer. When people watch sporting events, they go in with the assumption that both sides are starting on even footing and the better player/team will win. In sc2, anytime I see a TvP, I knew for a fact that the terran is fighting an uphill battle before the game even loads up. That is not a real competition, and it is not even remotely interesting or entertaining. It is depressing and it is harmful to the future of an 'esport' that so many people have invested so much time/effort/money into. It needs fixed and fast, and as long as this site tries to stifle any honest discussion outside of this thread it will only be more difficult to correct. Polt scouted a proxy stargate and there was nothing he could really do to punish it. That is garbage and anyone with a brain knows that. I am sorry but a solution is not likely to materialize. I will tell you why. When a poster on this site makes a post concerning a balance complaint the mods censor this person because they dont want a possibly toxic discussion that could reflect negatively on the site and lose it potential investment. Similarly the job of every department at Blizzard Entertainment is to make the company profit. If profit is being generated then there is no reason for any significant change to the game, a otherwise risky move that could backfire. Anyone who thinks that Protoss will be changed because people provide reasonable arguments and collective pressure are naive.
It feels like people dont want to accept that the globe is indeed round because they will have rewrite all of the maps. Everyone would benefit from a protoss redesign. More micro and macro possiblities, the better protoss players would have more options to show their skill without perfecting that one forcefield and that one all in. Protoss would become so much more fun to watch and all of the protoss matchup would be glorious.
But as you stated, it's not going to happend because there isnt enough pressure on the people in charge of it.
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EPT
