EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1018
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Orek
1665 Posts
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On June 23 2014 22:36 Awin wrote: I would like to come back to Scarlett's game yesterday, and show how relevant it is of the current balance of the game. First I would like to state this : Scarlett is less skilled than DRG (no offense, DRG has more skills in SC2 than 99.99% players). I define skill as the combination of mechanics and general understanding of the game, in both of those fields, Scarlett is behind her Korean opponent. And she knows it. (As a proof, just look at the number of major tournaments he won, including GSL, something Scarlett will never be able to reach even in her sweetest dreams.) I would disagree with Scarlett being less skilled than DRG at the moment , as much as I like DRG he is not the same DRG as he was when he won his GSL title and all his MLG finals against MarineKing. Your proof stands for an other game (*Wings of Liberty) and at other time. Scarlett is playing, mechanics and decision making wise, at a level which is near the top zerg player in the world and at least at the same level as DRG. You don't do the run she did against Life/DRG/Ragnarok, you don't defeat Polt 6-1 if you are not a top zerg player. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
When you look at the battle-net ladder, apart from progaming, these 2 base all-ins of protoss make the game unappealing to play. Its just no fun anymore to lose 50% of games in ZvP mainly to random immortal or 7 gate all-ins. For me the issues are deeper and not only in the protoss race itself. As I already mentioned, I believe that something has to be changed with terran bio, so that some of the protoss stuff that is meant to counter it becomes obsolete, zerg basic units can be tweaked then as well. But thats something for the next add-on. For now we probably have to deal with the fact that protoss is the all-in race. As forcefields are the main reasons for this, and I don't see any protoss potential without it, I believe there is no solution for this before the next add-on. | ||
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iS.Mike
37 Posts
Let me suggest a couple changes. Recall should either be used on only a limited amount of units, or it should be a research at the cyber core. Photon overcharge should not be prioritized by unit ai, as that basically gives the protoss a 2000 hp meat shield. Time warp should affect friendly units to make protoss have to use the ability wisely instead of spamming it. Keep in mind I'm not suggesting that all of them go through. If even one of them goes through I'd consider it a step in the right direction. Also note, none of these changes makes the MSC obsolete. It simply makes the protoss have to consider when to use it instead of having an overpowered versatile flying unit so early in the game. | ||
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imrusty269
United States1404 Posts
If we use match winrate instead of game, which is how we perceive balance, the disparity is even more lopsided. Rain has 78% match winrate, and Maru has 61% http://aligulac.com/players/7/results/?after=&before=&event=&race=t&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=Filter http://aligulac.com/players/49/results/after=&before=&event=&race=p&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=Filter | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 24 2014 01:23 iS.Mike wrote: For me, the problem of forcefields comes second to the problem that is the MSC. The unit is basically the WoL infestor, being able to harass with recall, attack with timewarp, and defend with photon overcharge. We saw in the finals yesterday, Polt did a pre-medivac stim allin against a protoss who took a fast third and went stargate and twilight council behind it. What happened? Photon overcharge... That one ability can negate all aggression to the point where protoss just needs to play greedy enough that the time it buys lets them get their tech out. Not to mention every move out they do is zero risk due to recall. Let me suggest a couple changes. Recall should either be used on only a limited amount of units, or it should be a research at the cyber core. Photon overcharge should not be prioritized by unit ai, as that basically gives the protoss a 2000 hp meat shield. Time warp should affect friendly units to make protoss have to use the ability wisely instead of spamming it. Keep in mind I'm not suggesting that all of them go through. If even one of them goes through I'd consider it a step in the right direction. Also note, none of these changes makes the MSC obsolete. It simply makes the protoss have to consider when to use it instead of having an overpowered versatile flying unit so early in the game. Given how the last page of discussion was all about how stupid Protoss allins are, I think it is only fair to say that it is good that the other races don't have the same stupid capabilities. Similarily Terran defensive capabilities against blink or Zergs capabilties against Sentry/Immortal should finally match those of Protoss. If balance problems result from this kind of patching "T/Z can go sooooo greedy now", those should be adressed seperatly. But balancing around whether you coinflip that a coinflip is or is not occuring is just stupid and should finally end. (not that i would get my hopes high for that. Half of the community loves their "haha, I punished you with build XY" and only hates it when it is a "blindcounter; you fucking maphacker" against their build) | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On June 23 2014 23:39 Orek wrote: What if...choosing a good race is considered a part of your "skill"? If I'm not mistaken, top fighting game players invest their time to find out which characters are strong because, quite honestly, it is impossible to perfectly balance a fighting game with 20+ characters. Then again, there are only 3 races in Starcraft, and I'm sure people hate such an idea. I'll answer ignoring the very high probability of you trolling: 1)Switching between character is way easier than switching between races. 2)How is it skilled in any way? Say that I decided to play Z during BL infestor era... in early HotS you would have called me unskilled because of mines, hellbats and 3 supply voids ravaging me? 3)People hate such an idea because it's moronic. | ||
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iS.Mike
37 Posts
On June 24 2014 01:59 Big J wrote: Given how the last page of discussion was all about how stupid Protoss allins are, I think it is only fair to say that it is good that the other races don't have the same stupid capabilities. Similarily Terran defensive capabilities against blink or Zergs capabilties against Sentry/Immortal should finally match those of Protoss. If balance problems result from this kind of patching "T/Z can go sooooo greedy now", those should be adressed seperatly. But balancing around whether you coinflip that a coinflip is or is not occuring is just stupid and should finally end. (not that i would get my hopes high for that. Half of the community loves their "haha, I punished you with build XY" and only hates it when it is a "blindcounter; you fucking maphacker" against their build) If I've understood you correctly, you want to improve T and Z defense so as not to turn this game into an all-in slugfest. I think this is the wrong idea. If all races have the defense of protoss, everyone will adopt defensive strategies that favor late game play. This may result in one race being favored over others in the late game as well as the whole deathball issue that many people dislike. Yes protoss all-ins are too strong when unscouted. I think this is because the MSC gives too much defensive and aggressive possibilities that there are no longer pressure builds able to scout effectively against it. That being said, relying on a scan for terran or an overlord for zerg is pretty much 50-50. That's why I think the MSC needs a nerf to keep the protoss from being able to do whatever they want regardless of what their opponent chooses to do. | ||
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Varroth
Sweden471 Posts
On June 24 2014 01:58 imrusty269 wrote: If you look at the winrate in TvP of top protoss and terran players, you can see that protoss players are way more consistent in this match up. Classic, Rain, sOs, Zest, Parting, Trap have 65% winrate facing mostly Korean terrans. Maru, Bbyong, Supernova have like 55%, and they are among the best currently. The only terrans that have >= 65% winrate vs protoss are Korean terrans playing a lot of foreign events like Taeja, Polt, Innovation or WoL MKP. If we use match winrate instead of game, which is how we perceive balance, the disparity is even more lopsided. Rain has 78% match winrate, and Maru has 61% http://aligulac.com/players/7/results/?after=&before=&event=&race=t&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=Filter http://aligulac.com/players/49/results/after=&before=&event=&race=p&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=Filter Or it just means that they are really good in the matchup...Rains winrate is mostly due to his defensive style of play besides most ''good'' terrans had like 60-70% winratio in TvZ pre WM nerf and the matchup wasnt even imbalanced | ||
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Varroth
Sweden471 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Proxy Oracle requires either enough Marines in the mineral (exposing the natural), a Turret in the mineral (requiring an E-bay) or a Widow Mine (requiring a fast Factory). At the same time, Dark Templar or Blink can be an option as well, the former requiring a Turret but at the ramp/natural rather than the mineral line (although a Warp Prism can mess this up as well) and the latter requiring Bunkers and Tanks. There are few shared units/structures that Terran can use to defend against all of them and only scouting fast double gas and no third Pylon does not directly reveal what is coming your way. On top of all this, if it fails for whatever reason, Protoss can hide behind Photon Overcharge. Especially against Oracles, the shear threat alone means Terran is forced to stay at home, allowing bizarre situations such as 1 gate w/Oracle into fast 3 nexus at the gold. Whilst I'd be accepting of Protoss having strong aggressive options, they should be in much more trouble if it fails. As is, Protoss can throw just about anything at you, the forced defensive response alone causing Terran economic damage, and still be even if it fails because Terran cannot counter-attack due to Photon Overcharge. The change I propose is to nerf the Mothership Core's speed to a crawl (around 0.88 like the old Overlord speed) and add an upgrade at the Cybernetics Core to boost it up to 2.25 (marine speed). It would only cost 50/50 but take 110 or 140 seconds to research. This remedies the aggressive/defensive stance of Protoss somewhat because a Blink attack with MSC means either Warp Gate is heavily delayed or the Mothership Core is at serious risk of being sniped and not being available to cast Photon Overcharge at home. If kept at home it can still cast Photon Overcharge defensively, but it reduces the all-in capacity somewhat to Dark Templar and Oracles, both of which share a defense in the Engineering Bay. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 24 2014 04:13 iS.Mike wrote: If I've understood you correctly, you want to improve T and Z defense so as not to turn this game into an all-in slugfest. I think this is the wrong idea. If all races have the defense of protoss, everyone will adopt defensive strategies that favor late game play. This may result in one race being favored over others in the late game as well as the whole deathball issue that many people dislike. Yes protoss all-ins are too strong when unscouted. I think this is because the MSC gives too much defensive and aggressive possibilities that there are no longer pressure builds able to scout effectively against it. That being said, relying on a scan for terran or an overlord for zerg is pretty much 50-50. That's why I think the MSC needs a nerf to keep the protoss from being able to do whatever they want regardless of what their opponent chooses to do. Well, in general I'm very happy with Z and T defenses, and I don't think they are really worse than MsC. The prime problems are 1-2 allin builds in either vP matchup, which all should be adressed individually without messing too much with other aggressive builds. If a race is favored in the late game that is an issue on its own and has to be solved, regardless of whatever early/mid game capabilities the races have. Else you get a ton of Sentry/Immortal vs Broodlord/Infestor and pull-the-boys vs Colossus/Templar/Tempest/25warpgate-turtle scenarios. Late- and endgame have to be balanced, there is no way around that. Anytime the only solution to an opponent becomes "kill him before he gets there" it's bad for the game, because it means that a clever opponent will "try to get there" and the only way that the game then is balanced becomes that you have an "overpowered" killpossibility before. + Show Spoiler + The math behind this is: If from 100games in which the Zerg tries to go BL/Infestor 40 reach that phase of the game and the winrate in this scenario would be only(!!!!) 60%, the winrate for Sentry/Immortal in the other 60games has to be 56,7%, to assure no imbalance occurs. There is no way around balancing "the longrun" of a matchup. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On June 24 2014 04:31 Varroth wrote: I don't understand this ''Toss ezpz'' talk I'm Platinum league with Zerg and around Silver with Terran, but with toss I probably wouldn't even be bronze. I've tried playing it and I've found it to be the hardest race for me personally. With Zerg I really just have to A-Move, with terran i can just run up to the colossi and with Protoss I find forcefielding right time warping right microing blink stalkers right to be rather difficult It's not because you are feeling this way, that it would de facto make it true for everyone else. | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
Has anyone developed a test map to see if it would be gamebreaking to take that feature out? | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On June 24 2014 04:31 Varroth wrote: I don't understand this ''Toss ezpz'' talk I'm Platinum league with Zerg and around Silver with Terran, but with toss I probably wouldn't even be bronze. I've tried playing it and I've found it to be the hardest race for me personally. With Zerg I really just have to A-Move, with terran i can just run up to the colossi and with Protoss I find forcefielding right time warping right microing blink stalkers right to be rather difficult I think each race has different requirements that make it appeal to different kinds of players. Personally I like Protoss because I think it suits me. I just get bored playing Terran (even when I'm winning). And I don't think Zerg is for me. I always forget to make Overlords, despite the ability to make like 75 at once :p Protoss is certainly unforgiving in some respects. If you lose workers you don't have MULES or the capability to make 12 at once again. Your early units are slow melee meaning if you're sloppy with walls you can die really easily to lings. If your forcefields aren't good you just die. Etc. So it might be that you're bad at these things which makes you a bad Protoss players. But perhaps you have really good late game army control or you have sick nasty APM and you spread creep like a badass. So T and Z are better for you. Who knows. | ||
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Tibbroar
United States161 Posts
On June 23 2014 23:00 kiLen wrote: That's a good way to discredit the point he is making. Would you remove all of the Zerg wins during the BL/infestor era and the GomTvT Era on basis that they were to strong at that point in time? In the end it doesnt matter does it? Let's not derail his argument even more since im really curious on what the counter arguments is going to be. Most people already discredit the champions from the BL/Infestor era, and the reason they don't discredit GOMTvT is because it was the same three or four players winning everything, three of whom are still relevant and one that is broken. While I agree his argument was pointless derailing, it does cause concern that an entire era of the game has already been written off because of a lesser imbalance than what is currently occurring. | ||
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Digitalis
United States1043 Posts
On June 24 2014 04:31 Varroth wrote: I don't understand this ''Toss ezpz'' talk I'm Platinum league with Zerg and around Silver with Terran, but with toss I probably wouldn't even be bronze. I've tried playing it and I've found it to be the hardest race for me personally. ", with terran i can just run up to the colossi and with Protoss I find forcefielding right time warping right microing blink stalkers right to be rather difficult >With Zerg I really just have to A-Move and inject, and spread creep, strategically spread overlords, etc Failing to do any of these can lose you the game. >with terran i can just run up to the colossi wat? please explain? >Protoss Chronoboost is a forgiving mechanic. I doesnt matter if you chrono something in the beginning middle or end (unless really end) of its production. Youre still going to get cost efficiency out of it, bottom line youre not going to lose a game because of a round of missed chrono or whatever, while a round of missed muling or injects can put you seriously behind. Dealing with harass is much ezier because of overcharge and the warp in mechanic. I can go on and on but you get the idea... I hope. tldr: I think when you said "With Zerg I really just have to A-Move" you really meant protoss. right? | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On June 24 2014 05:10 Digitalis wrote: >With Zerg I really just have to A-Move and inject, and spread creep, strategically spread overlords, etc Failing to do any of these can lose you the game. >with terran i can just run up to the colossi wat? please explain? >Protoss Chronoboost is a forgiving mechanic. I doesnt matter if you chrono something in the beginning middle or end (unless really end) of its production. Youre still going to get cost efficiency out of it, bottom line youre not going to lose a game because of a round of missed chrono or whatever, while a round of missed muling or injects can put you seriously behind. Dealing with harass is much ezier because of overcharge and the warp in mechanic. I can go on and on but you get the idea... I hope. tldr: I think when you said "With Zerg I really just have to A-Move" you really meant protoss. right? Injecting, spreading creep, and spreading overlords are not interactive tasks. These are just things that you have to remember to do. Your army is largely an A-move army. If you can remember to do all these things under pressure and have decent APM, then Zerg would be a good race for you to play. When I played Zerg for a bit I found that if I injected and remembered to make overlords (which I didn't always...) I'd win pretty easily. The engagements consisted of right clicking near the army and then A-moving, basically. Terran requires a different set of skills. As does Protoss.The army positioning and micro is a lot more interactive. Ghost EMPs and Templar Storms as well as kiting, time warps, etc... There's not as much stuff to do back home as Zerg but way harder battle management IMO. | ||
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