EPTThere is a reason as to why people have been asking for Protoss redesign since the very beginning of SC2.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1019
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
There is a reason as to why people have been asking for Protoss redesign since the very beginning of SC2. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On June 24 2014 05:36 Sapphire.lux wrote: Protoss has more simplistic macro compared to Z and T and "suffers" from the deathball syndrome (as Dustin B. correctly pointed out, this is the easiest way to play). On the other hand it is dependent on some very unforgiving units and abilities, like FF and timing attacks/ all ins. There is a reason as to why people have been asking for Protoss redesign since the very beginning of SC2. How is Protoss macro more simplistic than Terran macro? I swear if people just thought about things they said instead of just repeating stupid shit they hear online, statements like this would never be made. | ||
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Extenz
Italy822 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11035 Posts
On June 24 2014 06:20 DinoMight wrote: How is Protoss macro more simplistic than Terran macro? I swear if people just thought about things they said instead of just repeating stupid shit they hear online, statements like this would never be made. This thread is a history of stupid thoughts. IMO you could break a lot of those thoughts down by race. The worst bits though had to be how people were abusing stats to claim Terran balance early on. It was mind-blowingly bad. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On June 24 2014 06:20 DinoMight wrote: How is Protoss macro more simplistic than Terran macro? Toss macro requires less accurate clicks. Front loaded Unit production is also a bit more forgiving in a lot of situations. I swear if people just thought about things they said instead of just repeating stupid shit they hear online, statements like this would never be made. Ohh the irony^^ :D | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On June 24 2014 05:36 Sapphire.lux wrote: Protoss has more simplistic macro compared to Z and T and "suffers" from the deathball syndrome (as Dustin B. correctly pointed out, this is the easiest way to play). On the other hand it is dependent on some very unforgiving units and abilities, like FF and timing attacks/ all ins. There is a reason as to why people have been asking for Protoss redesign since the very beginning of SC2. i play toss and my biased toss brain has to disagree.  i think macro wise Zerg is easier than toss with larva mechanic. I think of zerg as an almost "pure" scout-react race. The zerg can pretty much make only drones until something is scouted.It's kind of like this: I keep making drones -> expand when allowed, etc etc etc Spawning pool done, make queens, creep spread inject, repeat, etc take gases on certain times based on what matchup and what kind of build i am doing. Send overlord at 6:00 - 8:00 to scout if player expanded, good i keep making drones if not time to make a bunch of units. Tech up when possible. This is not the same for terran and protoss, warpins/production are limited to amount of gateways/barracks. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On June 24 2014 06:53 submarine wrote: Toss macro requires less accurate clicks. Front loaded Unit production is also a bit more forgiving in a lot of situations. Ohh the irony^^ :D Less accurate clicks? What a bullshit meaningless statement. How is "4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" something that requires more precision than "look at a pylon, WZ click click click click click click...." Front loaded production is made up for by the fact that Terran has constant production. You can't micro a battle and be producing gateway units as Protoss. You can queue them as Terran. I'm not saying one is harder or easier than the other. I'm just dismissing this obviously biased statement about Protoss macro being simpler than Terran macro. | ||
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
On June 24 2014 06:53 submarine wrote: Toss macro requires less accurate clicks. Front loaded Unit production is also a bit more forgiving in a lot of situations. Ohh the irony^^ :D terran macro requires about 3 clicks per cycle ( 3 depots or so) and 0 clicks per cycle one the infrastructure is up unless you meaning actions but i fail to see how 4 aaaaaaaaa is harder than w, Z , shift +click click click click | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Easier for Terran, harder for Protoss: - Visionless macro, you can indeed hotkey and produce with Terran, while looking at the battle - build your buildings anywhere for Terran, Pylon range for Protoss (can't believe how much time I was losing when I played Protoss and was looking for some free powered space to put a building) - walling is easier with depot and flying buildings - chronoboost targeting vs dropping a mule Easier for Protoss, harder for Terran: - Less buildings and slower production cycles in general for Protoss, because units are more expensive. - No add-on switching whatsoever. - No need to organize your base so that units can get out, except for Immortals. With Terran it's frequent that unit get stuck if you place your buildings/add-ons too fast, without looking carefully. - Gas is very easy to spend as Protoss, less so as Terran (especially in late game) - Reinforcements anywhere, whereas it takes a bit more planning for Terran to bring the same handful of units at the same given place on the battlefield. All in all, I wouldn't put the burden of "imbalance" on macro differences. Macro is pretty equally easy for both races. | ||
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FaultyReDD
25 Posts
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InVerno
258 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On June 24 2014 06:20 DinoMight wrote: How is Protoss macro more simplistic than Terran macro? I swear if people just thought about things they said instead of just repeating stupid shit they hear online, statements like this would never be made. As protoss: You dont need to constantly produce units cuz of warpgate. As terran: You need to constantly produce units or else u can never catch up This is why its considdered easy for protoss. Another thing that goes away from the RTS-core. What race? Protoss. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 24 2014 16:40 InVerno wrote: i was wondering how can be active a thread talking about balance when the dev team has abbandoned the entire thing of balance from months, but as i see it's only a "look at my penis i play X" thread, and i'm quite satisfied with that, at least it's understandable. last balance update was one month ago. Learn to count "months". | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 24 2014 16:52 Foxxan wrote: As protoss: You dont need to constantly produce units cuz of warpgate. As terran: You need to constantly produce units or else u can never catch up This is why its considdered easy for protoss. Another thing that goes away from the RTS-core. What race? Protoss. ? If you miss a round of warp-ins you can never catch up, that's exactly the same. A production cycle is essentially the output of a unit, associated with a cooldown. With Terran, it's cooldown then output, with Protoss it's output then cooldown, but when you chain cycles it's basically the same sequence. Theoretically the only advantage Protoss has is the first warp-in of a warpgate (which is why 4-gate is so scary supply-wise, btw). | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On June 24 2014 16:58 ZenithM wrote: ? If you miss a round of warp-ins you can never catch up, that's exactly the same. A production cycle is essentially the output of a unit, associated with a cooldown. With Terran, it's cooldown then output, with Protoss it's output then cooldown, but when you chain cycles it's basically the same sequence. Theoretically the only advantage Protoss has is the first warp-in of a warpgate (which is why 4-gate is so scary supply-wise, btw). No, not true. Protoss gets 2units each cycle. Terran get 1 | ||
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InVerno
258 Posts
On June 24 2014 16:55 Big J wrote: last balance update was one month ago. Learn to count "months". i see the strategy section full of threads asking how to deal with the new meta born in the last patch .. you have adapted to it smoothly or was an hard change for you? | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 24 2014 06:20 DinoMight wrote: How is Protoss macro more simplistic than Terran macro? -Terran has a bit of planing for add ons; -In a typical game has 3 different types of production buildings compared to the usual Protoss 2; -Terran has the traditional RTS reinforcement decision making (like where to set the rally for new units) -Front loaded Unit production is a massive advantage for Protoss that although not IMBA, it simply simplifies their decision making in defense (hope this makes sense .I'm sure there are more, but the point is not the Protoss is easy, just easier in some aspects, while being more unforgiving in others. This also has nothing to do with the perceived recent imbalances, but with the overall design of the race. I swear if people just thought about things they said instead of just repeating stupid shit they hear online, statements like this would never be made. I'l mostly ignore that and put it on your proven record as one of the most biased posters around, but please keep civil. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 24 2014 17:02 Foxxan wrote: No, not true. Protoss gets 2units each cycle. Terran get 1 how so? going by Zenith's definition of "production cylce" we have Warpgate: U(1)--------C--------U(2)--------C--------U(3)--------C--------U(3)-------....-------U(n) Terran: |||||||---------P--------U(1)--------P--------U(2)--------P--------U(3)--------P--------U(3)-------....-------U(n) U(x)... being the x-th unit produced C... being Cooldown P... being Production Time With constant production and cooldown/production time coinciding, after n-Warpgate cycles Protoss has n-units from it while the Terran has (n-1)-units from his production facility. | ||
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
and then it decends into pointless balance whine/ my race is harder than yours posts for a while | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 24 2014 17:37 InVerno wrote: i see the strategy section full of threads asking how to deal with the new meta born in the last patch .. you have adapted to it smoothly or was an hard change for you? I'm currently playing Terran, formerly Zerg. If you want to, you can call it "adapted", though it has little to do with the patch. | ||
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