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Thoughts on this idea from reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/28xrcr/fungal_growth_should_hit_pdd/
TLDR:
Fungal should hit and damage PDD.
Points of interest:
- to help TvZ mech lategame stalemates, 2 fungals would kill a PDD
- PDD blocks attacks, not spells - even tho Fungal is projectile now (same as Yamato)
- PDD can be hit by Feedback, though it is technically a structure like the auto-turret (CC, Nexus cannot be hit by Feedback or Fungal)
- PDD can be EMP'd and so can CC/Nexus.
Seems like the rules for this are all over the place to fit in different MU's. When you Fungal a Raven cloud PDD is left there unharmed. I like the idea of trading energy for energy. I don't think it is a huge change but could maybe help give more options. It would also make more movement needed as Tanks would need to zone out Infestors.
Thoughts?
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Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
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On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:
Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
I never said I didn't like playing vs it. I want mech to be a viable option, this is to help the drawn out stalemates. This is the balance dscussion thread is it not?
Thanks for explaining how this would make mech useless though, I value your input.
EDIT: also this isn't even my idea I just found it interesting.
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On June 25 2014 04:56 Code wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:
Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already. I never said I didn't like playing vs it. I want mech to be a viable option, this is to help the drawn out stalemates. This is the balance dscussion thread is it not? Thanks for explaining how this would make mech useless though, I value your input. EDIT: also this isn't even my idea I just found it interesting.
The only response to SH is camping into raven. You remove the only answer to SH, you can't play mech.
Want to remove stalemates tvz mech ? nerf mutas, ravens, SH and vipers.
Nerf the regen of mutas which is way too high right now. It was in response to WM, and WMs suck ass now.
Nerf the number of hit a PDD can absorb, like by half. Make HSM cost more energy.
Nerf SHs, either removing the upgrade that make tlocusts last longer, nerf the HP of locusts or reduce its dps.
Nerf vipers so it doesn't have consume (is that the correct name ? the spell that absorbe life of building for mana) or make abduct costing more, or shorter range.
And here we go, ravens won't be that much of use, so terran would be force to play a more aggressive play style. They would be able to do so because there will be no mutas destroying the base even against 20 turets, and SHs, while being what it should be, aka a temporisation unit, won't just sit at the other side of the map doing nothing. This will force army management from both side. Nerfing Vipers would also make mech viable at higher level.
I too dislike terran camping into raven, the problem is the non viability of doing mech otherwise.
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On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:
Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
LOL Faust you are one funny guy, logged in just to say this comment made my day
Yea i'm surprised people still want to nerf terran... Have you seen proleague results? If Kassia didn't exist, TvZ would be around 10% winrate
Edit:
I checked and it'd be around 38%. PvT on the other hand: PvT: 12-2 (85.7%) LOLOL omfg i can't stop laughing, this game is so balanced...
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On June 25 2014 04:56 Code wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:
Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already. I never said I didn't like playing vs it. I want mech to be a viable option, this is to help the drawn out stalemates. This is the balance dscussion thread is it not?
Thanks for explaining how this would make mech useless though, I value your input. EDIT: also this isn't even my idea I just found it interesting.
It is supposed to be but in reality it is the balance whining thread as you can see. They "think" you hate Terran for some reason or any other race a suggestion would hurt a bit. I think what you said indeed is interesting and I'm sure that if it would make mech not viable against Zerg you would be against it yourself.
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On June 25 2014 04:45 Code wrote:Thoughts on this idea from reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/28xrcr/fungal_growth_should_hit_pdd/TLDR: Fungal should hit and damage PDD. Points of interest: - to help TvZ mech lategame stalemates, 2 fungals would kill a PDD - PDD blocks attacks, not spells - even tho Fungal is projectile now (same as Yamato) - PDD can be hit by Feedback, though it is technically a structure like the auto-turret (CC, Nexus cannot be hit by Feedback or Fungal) - PDD can be EMP'd and so can CC/Nexus. Seems like the rules for this are all over the place to fit in different MU's. When you Fungal a Raven cloud PDD is left there unharmed. I like the idea of trading energy for energy. I don't think it is a huge change but could maybe help give more options. It would also make more movement needed as Tanks would need to zone out Infestors. Thoughts?
I dislike the Raven turtle but that is the only answer to mass SHs on most maps. Nefing one without the other would not make much sense.
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On June 25 2014 06:14 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 04:56 Code wrote:On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:
Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already. I never said I didn't like playing vs it. I want mech to be a viable option, this is to help the drawn out stalemates. This is the balance dscussion thread is it not?
Thanks for explaining how this would make mech useless though, I value your input. EDIT: also this isn't even my idea I just found it interesting. It is supposed to be but in reality it is the balance whining thread as you can see. They "think" you hate Terran for some reason or any other race a suggestion would hurt a bit. I think what you said indeed is interesting and I'm sure that if it would make mech not viable against Zerg you would be against it yourself.
Yeah true, I forgot TLnet was some sort of Terrans gathering and the only people that complains about thing are terrans.
Not like wanting to nerf Terran while it's the least performing race is an absurdity.
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On June 25 2014 06:23 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 06:14 Penev wrote:On June 25 2014 04:56 Code wrote:On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:
Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already. I never said I didn't like playing vs it. I want mech to be a viable option, this is to help the drawn out stalemates. This is the balance dscussion thread is it not?
Thanks for explaining how this would make mech useless though, I value your input. EDIT: also this isn't even my idea I just found it interesting. It is supposed to be but in reality it is the balance whining thread as you can see. They "think" you hate Terran for some reason or any other race a suggestion would hurt a bit. I think what you said indeed is interesting and I'm sure that if it would make mech not viable against Zerg you would be against it yourself. Yeah true, I forgot TLnet was some sort of Terrans gathering and the only people that complains about thing are terrans. Not like wanting to nerf Terran while it's the least performing race is an absurdity.
The thing is, you don't even give him the slightest benefit of the doubt. He may just be pointing out this one fix to boring stalemates. Why, instead of hating on him immediately, do you not respond with 'Agreed that stalemates are annoying, but this would weak terran. Maybe we could implement it in combination with [X designed to counteract the weaking].'?
All too often people seem more interested in attacking each other than working together to make the game more fun.
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On June 25 2014 07:50 antiRW wrote:
All too often people seem more interested in attacking each other than working together to make the game more fun.
Hey it's a balance discussion thread, if there's no hate, there's no fun !
Talking about the Raven nerf : even though it would make some sense lore-wise or game mechanics-wise, that would be a total nonsense given the current state of balance, which hardly favours Terran in any match-up. I would be totally OK with that nerf if Blizzard decided to plug their brain and remove the swarmhost.
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Pdd is an interesting one and I think it can use some tweak.
It needs to be strong because it minimize the amount of defensive units scattered around and won't get taken apart.
True vs hydra shows how good Ravens with pdds can shut down multi prone aggression, even if some areas are less well protected and I think it is perfectly fine.
However, the biggest problem comes when raven count reaches over certain. number and every additional raven would be exponentially difficult to deal with.
I have no clue how to make it better though. As in it should be good in low numbers but weaker when it is massed.
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Just have to say that looking Has play against Zerg makes me really sad. Really sad how far you can reach without knowing how to macro.
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On June 25 2014 19:38 Sidhoum wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 07:50 antiRW wrote:
All too often people seem more interested in attacking each other than working together to make the game more fun. Hey it's a balance discussion thread, if there's no hate, there's no fun ! Talking about the Raven nerf : even though it would make some sense lore-wise or game mechanics-wise, that would be a total nonsense given the current state of balance, which hardly favours Terran in any match-up. I would be totally OK with that nerf if Blizzard decided to plug their brain and remove the swarmhost.
as a zerg
i would be okay with this
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On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:
Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
Faust such a troll.
Someone suggest than you need 2 fungal to kill a PDD (notice Infestor has 10 range and tank 13, so you probably loose some infestor, + it takes 6.7s to kill a PDD wich active during this time) = OP it's like removing Terran !
Zerg just doesn't have a single even soft counter to raven, but it's OK. Even GSL caster say it's ridiculous.
Then you say : whithout raven T can't counter SH (and tank/bio/drop doesn't counter SH ? !), but it's ok Zerg have no counter to raven.
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On June 25 2014 22:14 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:
Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already. Faust such a troll. Someone suggest than you need 2 fungal to kill a PDD (notice Infestor has 10 range and tank 13, so you probably loose some infestor, + it takes 6.7s to kill a PDD wich active during this time) = OP it's like removing Terran ! Zerg just doesn't have a single even soft counter to raven, but it's OK. Even GSL caster say it's ridiculous. Then you say : whithout raven T can't counter SH (and tank/bio/drop doesn't counter SH ? !), but it's ok Zerg have no counter to raven.
The Zerg counter to mass Ravens is "don't let them get that many Ravens," unfortunately.
It's like infestor BL in WoL.
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On June 25 2014 22:21 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 22:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:
Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already. Faust such a troll. Someone suggest than you need 2 fungal to kill a PDD (notice Infestor has 10 range and tank 13, so you probably loose some infestor, + it takes 6.7s to kill a PDD wich active during this time) = OP it's like removing Terran ! Zerg just doesn't have a single even soft counter to raven, but it's OK. Even GSL caster say it's ridiculous. Then you say : whithout raven T can't counter SH (and tank/bio/drop doesn't counter SH ? !), but it's ok Zerg have no counter to raven. The Zerg counter to mass Ravens is "don't let them get that many Ravens," unfortunately. It's like infestor BL in WoL.
Except infestor BL wasn't beatable and mech is ? Except infestor BL was played 100% of games and mech is never played at pro level in TvZ ?
If raven was so OP in late game, I'm pretty sure every pro would play this style. They don't give a shit about fun or not, they give a shit about the cash at the end. BL infest wasn't fun, it didn't prevent them to play that stylle every game.
Thus you can deduce that mech isn't OP vs Z, so no need to nerf anything.
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On June 25 2014 22:14 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already. Faust such a troll. Someone suggest than you need 2 fungal to kill a PDD (notice Infestor has 10 range and tank 13, so you probably loose some infestor, + it takes 6.7s to kill a PDD wich active during this time) = OP it's like removing Terran ! Zerg just doesn't have a single even soft counter to raven, but it's OK. Even GSL caster say it's ridiculous. Then you say : whithout raven T can't counter SH (and tank/bio/drop doesn't counter SH ? !), but it's ok Zerg have no counter to raven.
The thing is why should zerg get a way to break stalemate vs mech - by nerfing terrans even so slightly - and terrans should not be given a way to break sh lines without 20 ravens? Plus why would you nerf terrans when they already don't win that much - and moreover with mech?
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On June 25 2014 22:14 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:
Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already. Faust such a troll. Someone suggest than you need 2 fungal to kill a PDD (notice Infestor has 10 range and tank 13, so you probably loose some infestor, + it takes 6.7s to kill a PDD wich active during this time) = OP it's like removing Terran ! Zerg just doesn't have a single even soft counter to raven, but it's OK. Even GSL caster say it's ridiculous. Then you say : whithout raven T can't counter SH (and tank/bio/drop doesn't counter SH ? !), but it's ok Zerg have no counter to raven.
Zerg has a counter to Ravens: Mutalisks
The high firerate of Mutas depletes PDDs pretty quickly.
The speed of Mutas lets them easily dodge HSMs and Autoturrets.
If I can have 20 Ravens gas-wise, you can have 40 Mutas.
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On June 25 2014 22:41 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 22:21 DinoMight wrote:On June 25 2014 22:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:
Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already. Faust such a troll. Someone suggest than you need 2 fungal to kill a PDD (notice Infestor has 10 range and tank 13, so you probably loose some infestor, + it takes 6.7s to kill a PDD wich active during this time) = OP it's like removing Terran ! Zerg just doesn't have a single even soft counter to raven, but it's OK. Even GSL caster say it's ridiculous. Then you say : whithout raven T can't counter SH (and tank/bio/drop doesn't counter SH ? !), but it's ok Zerg have no counter to raven. The Zerg counter to mass Ravens is "don't let them get that many Ravens," unfortunately. It's like infestor BL in WoL. Except infestor BL wasn't beatable and mech is ? Except infestor BL was played 100% of games and mech is never played at pro level in TvZ ? If raven was so OP in late game, I'm pretty sure every pro would play this style. They don't give a shit about fun or not, they give a shit about the cash at the end. BL infest wasn't fun, it didn't prevent them to play that stylle every game. Thus you can deduce that mech isn't OP vs Z, so no need to nerf anything.
BL/Infestor wss completely beatable. Mass raven/tank/viking in WoL was an amazing counter. You just rarely got there because BL/Infestor was a timing that would usually hit you 5-10mins too early.
But compared to WoL, Zerg has actually a greater chance to beat mass raven/tank compositions when they happen in HotS through Vipers and Broodlords.
I cant even remember a single split map+mass raven scenario that a zerg won in WoL (though there are most likely a few ones around) while I know games that Mvp, Gumiho, Goody, Morrow won once reaching it.
In TvZ thw composition of BL/Infestor was never a problem, the timing was by a large degree. (Like 5-10min windows for a zerg to get an easy kill with it. Like a mega sentry/immortal push)
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On June 25 2014 23:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 22:41 Faust852 wrote:On June 25 2014 22:21 DinoMight wrote:On June 25 2014 22:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote:
Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P.
Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ?
Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already. Faust such a troll. Someone suggest than you need 2 fungal to kill a PDD (notice Infestor has 10 range and tank 13, so you probably loose some infestor, + it takes 6.7s to kill a PDD wich active during this time) = OP it's like removing Terran ! Zerg just doesn't have a single even soft counter to raven, but it's OK. Even GSL caster say it's ridiculous. Then you say : whithout raven T can't counter SH (and tank/bio/drop doesn't counter SH ? !), but it's ok Zerg have no counter to raven. The Zerg counter to mass Ravens is "don't let them get that many Ravens," unfortunately. It's like infestor BL in WoL. Except infestor BL wasn't beatable and mech is ? Except infestor BL was played 100% of games and mech is never played at pro level in TvZ ? If raven was so OP in late game, I'm pretty sure every pro would play this style. They don't give a shit about fun or not, they give a shit about the cash at the end. BL infest wasn't fun, it didn't prevent them to play that stylle every game. Thus you can deduce that mech isn't OP vs Z, so no need to nerf anything. BL/Infestor wss completely beatable. Mass raven/tank/viking in WoL was an amazing counter. You just rarely got there because BL/Infestor was a timing that would usually hit you 5-10mins too early. But compared to WoL, Zerg has actually a greater chance to beat mass raven/tank compositions when they happen in HotS through Vipers and Broodlords. I cant even remember a single split map+mass raven scenario that a zerg won in WoL (though there are most likely a few ones around) while I know games that Mvp, Gumiho, Goody, Morrow won once reaching it. In TvZ thw composition of BL/Infestor was never a problem, the timing was by a large degree. (Like 5-10min windows for a zerg to get an easy kill with it. Like a mega sentry/immortal push)
Saying BL infestor wasn't a problem is kindof a joke, sorry. In WoL, even if you managed to hold for 30min, you just couldn't transi into skyT at all, because all your ressource went to trading with the Z till you just die because you couldn't really take more than a 4th on most map.
At that, you must add that the HSM in WoL was way stronger, you could cast only one of them, but it was instant cast and higher damage.
Back in WoL, almost not a single T won a premier event after the queen buff. Taeja won 2, mvp 1 against mostly foreigners. Sting won an IEM but it wasnt really a premier event line up wise.
Complaining about stalemate vs mech late game is as ridiculous as complaining about protoss camping on 3 bases till maxed. It's exactly the same. Even worst, since it almost NEVER happen at pro level while the former happens quite often.
The only mass raven game I can remember right now where the T won was Life vs Flash, and few people willl argue it was a bad game. It was probably on the of the best game mech TvZ in a while.
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