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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
Mass Tempest would become unbeatable with any change to the PDD. EDIT: Also you guys are ignoring burrowed infestor. I've lost so many games with mass Ravens to chain fungal. Good Zergs, who just don't remax blindly with a bad unit composition, know how to deal with this style. The level of micro involved with both these units (raven and infestor/corruptor/viper) is likely above anyones skill level in this forum. I'm even low GM and my micro needs improvement with that composition. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 25 2014 23:41 Faust852 wrote: Saying BL infestor wasn't a problem is kindof a joke, sorry. In WoL, even if you managed to hold for 30min, you just couldn't transi into skyT at all, because all your ressource went to trading with the Z till you just die because you couldn't really take more than a 4th on most map. At that, you must add that the HSM in WoL was way stronger, you could cast only one of them, but it was instant cast and higher damage. Back in WoL, almost not a single T won a premier event after the queen buff. Taeja won 2, mvp 1 against mostly foreigners. Sting won an IEM but it wasnt really a premier event line up wise. Complaining about stalemate vs mech late game is as ridiculous as complaining about protoss camping on 3 bases till maxed. It's exactly the same. Even worst, since it almost NEVER happen at pro level while the former happens quite often. The only mass raven game I can remember right now where the T won was Life vs Flash, and few people willl argue it was a bad game. It was probably on the of the best game mech TvZ in a while. Your reading comprehension is the only joke in this if you translate: "Zerg had a 5-10min imbalanced kill possibility" to "BL/Infestor was never a problem". | ||
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ETisME
12476 Posts
How do you actually let the zerg burrow infestors to chain the fungals? Unless you push out of tanks range? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 26 2014 00:08 ETisME wrote: One thing I don't understand is how can zerg do chain fungal when terran is turtling behind tanks and missile turrets and Ravens. How do you actually let the zerg burrow infestors to chain the fungals? Unless you push out of tanks range? you can't. If the Terran plays slowly, you will have a hard time to even get off the first fungal. Chaining it 2-3times is nearly impossible. The thing is, if the zerg uses his map presence, he should try to take at least one base of the Terran's side and mine the gases. Which forces the Terran to push faster than he wants to and spread thinner as he should. That's when your fungals/abducts/locusts start doing more damage than they should - or you get more money than you should (if the Terran doesn't push for your base(s) on his side) which ultimately allows you to trade more inefficiently. As an example, from Life vs Flash: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v1OHsZD.jpg) The map at the moment Flash takes his 4th, concentrating all his forces around the new 4th to be capable of holding it Life at that time should imo take the yellow base and mine it as heavily as possible trying to eventually split the map at the green line. If he has mutalisk/swarm host/viper/infestor when he takes that base, it becomes nearly impossible for Flash to attack the yellow base, while ensuring defense against the backdoor and at the 4th against Swarm Hosts and at the 3rd vs zergling/roach (swinging all the way from the left) and mutalisks that can attack anywhere and reinforce everything. Ultimately this should lead to Flash not being able to do his last push, or doing it with switched supplies (200Z vs 170T). | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On June 26 2014 00:08 ETisME wrote: One thing I don't understand is how can zerg do chain fungal when terran is turtling behind tanks and missile turrets and Ravens. How do you actually let the zerg burrow infestors to chain the fungals? Unless you push out of tanks range? Terrans need to advance across the map to actually kill their Zerg opponent. This includes seekering SH and PDD spores at the same time. You have to remember, most of the Terran supply is caught up in Raven/Vikings, there is typically not enough tanks to take on the SH head-to-head without advancing with PDD. SH usually die from Seeker Missile, not tanks. Tanks mainly shell spore crawlers so Ravens can attack unprotected SH. I've also seen mass muta attempt to take out the entire main of Terran with 4 burrowed infestors on the side of the main. When Terrans need to defend their main with only viking/raven, the Zerg baits the "mech ball" into the fungals and GG. | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On June 26 2014 00:15 Big J wrote: you can't. If the Terran plays slowly, you will have a hard time to even get off the first fungal. Chaining it 2-3times is nearly impossible. The thing is, if the zerg uses his map presence, he should try to take at least one base of the Terran's side and mine the gases. Which forces the Terran to push faster than he wants to and spread thinner as he should. That's when your fungals/abducts/locusts start doing more damage than they should - or you get more money than you should (if the Terran doesn't push for your base(s) on his side) which ultimately allows you to trade more inefficiently. As an example, from Life vs Flash: The map at the moment Flash takes his 4th, concentrating all his forces around the new 4th to be capable of holding it Life at that time should imo take the yellow base and mine it as heavily as possible trying to eventually split the map at the green line. If he has mutalisk/swarm host/viper/infestor when he takes that base, it becomes nearly impossible for Flash to attack the yellow base, while ensuring defense against the backdoor and at the 4th against Swarm Hosts and at the 3rd vs zergling/roach (swinging all the way from the left) and mutalisks that can attack anywhere and reinforce everything. Ultimately this should lead to Flash not being able to do his last push, or doing it with switched supplies (200Z vs 170T). I agree about the strategy you are proposing, but I disagree about your fungal comment. Even Flash, Terran God, was one chain fungal away from losing all his Raven. One fungal more and he would have lost game - it was luck in my opion he didn't. You are talking about a Terran that has "perfect micro"; "perfect mechanics"; and "perfect game sense" when you claim that chain fungal will not work if the Terran plays slow. Ravens NEED to advance with tanks. And any good mech player also uses Ravens for occasional harass (i.e. Auto Turret Zerg expansions). To claim that a Terran will make no mistakes in a 30+ minute game (b/c TvZ mech is usually very long) is an illogical comment. If the Viking/Raven ball is out of place once, it can easily lose Terran the game. See my comments above about other options. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 26 2014 01:52 Faust852 wrote: ^Life tried to take this base quite a few times, Flash killed it with a couple of banshees. The screenshot is from 17:00. Life tries to take the base at 29:30. At that point Flash easily has the forces to deny it. The point is to mine the base for as long as possible before Flash can take it down and mine the rest. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 26 2014 02:14 SirPinky wrote: I agree about the strategy you are proposing, but I disagree about your fungal comment. Even Flash, Terran God, was one chain fungal away from losing all his Raven. One fungal more and he would have lost game - it was luck in my opion he didn't. You are talking about a Terran that has "perfect micro"; "perfect mechanics"; and "perfect game sense" when you claim that chain fungal will not work if the Terran plays slow. Ravens NEED to advance with tanks. And any good mech player also uses Ravens for occasional harass (i.e. Auto Turret Zerg expansions). To claim that a Terran will make no mistakes in a 30+ minute game (b/c TvZ mech is usually very long) is an illogical comment. If the Viking/Raven ball is out of place once, it can easily lose Terran the game. See my comments above about other options. Well, that's the thing I was saying. It's hard to get the fungals off, but you can kind of force it like Life did (losing a lot of Infestors for it). But there is a huge difference between getting it off once, chaining it twice or chaining it up to 5times (that is what you need). That's very rare and even if Life had done it, it would have only broken somewhat even, given how many infestors he sacced. (which is still a good trade for zerg usually in this scenario, but far from game winning) | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On June 25 2014 05:21 [Azn]Nada wrote: LOL Faust you are one funny guy, logged in just to say this comment made my day Yea i'm surprised people still want to nerf terran... Have you seen proleague results? If Kassia didn't exist, TvZ would be around 10% winrate Edit: I checked and it'd be around 38%. PvT on the other hand: PvT: 12-2 (85.7%) LOLOL omfg i can't stop laughing, this game is so balanced... Let's rely on pro league results while ignoring all the tournament data and how top Korean Terrans are overseas. Even the Korean commentators saying how ridiculous Terran play is and let's ignore all that, yup. Late game TvZ, Raven has always been a huge problem. Blizzard even admitted they are looking into it BTW, Mech is not a necessity. That's like a Protoss player complaining sky toss isn't a viable standard opening vs. Terran if scouted | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On June 26 2014 02:20 Big J wrote: Well, that's the thing I was saying. It's hard to get the fungals off, but you can kind of force it like Life did (losing a lot of Infestors for it). But there is a huge difference between getting it off once, chaining it twice or chaining it up to 5times (that is what you need). That's very rare and even if Life had done it, it would have only broken somewhat even, given how many infestors he sacced. (which is still a good trade for zerg usually in this scenario, but far from game winning) I think it's all about trading evenly (which I think you are elluding to): If the terran loses several infestors for a few ravens, then the Zerg succeeded. Zerg's should always be up more bases and keep trading to stop the Terran slow push. It is when Zergs are on 7 bases (gas mining) and keeps suiciding units with a crappy (microless) composition is when they get into trouble. I hate when I hear Zergs say, "but I was on 8 bases and still lost!". First off, nobody can be fully saturated on 8 bases (maybe gas mining only), second they are typically the ones I call "suicide Zergs" that just blindly make units sending them into a maxed out Terran seige and raven line while crossing their fingers hoping it will work.. If they can keep trading and keep the raven composition low, they will eventually starve the Terran. You can do this with mass viper/corruptor or fungal if you catch them out of position. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On June 26 2014 02:26 parkufarku wrote: Let's rely on pro league results while ignoring all the tournament data and how top Korean Terrans are overseas. Even the Korean commentators saying how ridiculous Terran play is and let's ignore all that, yup. Late game TvZ, Raven has always been a huge problem. Blizzard even admitted they are looking into it BTW, Mech is not a necessity. That's like a Protoss player complaining sky toss isn't a viable standard opening vs. Terran if scouted Lol seriously ? Terran is ridiculous ? Winning 2 tournaments since the beginning of the year is ridiculous ? Wtf man. There hasn't been a single TvT in GSL for ages, not a terran in final GSL for more than a year. Please keep using fake argument like "korean commentators saying terran is ridiculous". Yup. Btw on what tournament data are you basing your claim ? It's been at least 6 months that terran is the weakest race basing on tournament results. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On June 26 2014 03:12 Faust852 wrote: Lol seriously ? Terran is ridiculous ? Winning 2 tournaments since the beginning of the year is ridiculous ? Wtf man. There hasn't been a single TvT in GSL for ages, not a terran in final GSL for more than a year. Please keep using fake argument like "korean commentators saying terran is ridiculous". Yup. Btw on what tournament data are you basing your claim ? It's been at least 6 months that terran is the weakest race basing on tournament results. Faust please, cool down. No need to attack everyone immediately. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On June 26 2014 03:18 RaFox17 wrote: Faust please, cool down. No need to attack everyone immediately. I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just blaffed that people dare saying such non sense. Claiming that terran is overpowered in foreign tournament is ridiculous considering the only guy that won a tournament is Taeja. When Polt faced a Kespa player, he got rekt 6-0. Aligulac is saying TvZ is still in favor of Z even post HB patch too. What annoys me is saying random claims which are not true like what parkufarku did. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7115 Posts
On June 26 2014 03:18 RaFox17 wrote: Faust please, cool down. No need to attack everyone immediately. I agree with him though, Terran is definitely not ridiculous. Unless ridiculous means that its ridiculously bad... | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On June 25 2014 23:16 BurningRanger wrote: Zerg has a counter to Ravens: Mutalisks The high firerate of Mutas depletes PDDs pretty quickly. The speed of Mutas lets them easily dodge HSMs and Autoturrets. If I can have 20 Ravens gas-wise, you can have 40 Mutas. Mutas fire rate is 1.5, only 0.4 faster than corruptor... Queen has a faster fire rate than mutalisk... Just watch this : Mutas fighting PDD whitout army. Imaging if there are some thor/seeker with this... And the Difference is raven never die, while mutas got crushed by thor/viking tourett. Zergs don't make 40 mutas and kill raven. T just build 20 raven, while Zerg build 80-100 mutas to remplace this. If the map is cut, of course Zerg can't have more gaz so loose. | ||
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imrusty269
United States1404 Posts
On June 26 2014 03:23 Faust852 wrote: I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just blaffed that people dare saying such non sense. Claiming that terran is overpowered in foreign tournament is ridiculous considering the only guy that won a tournament is Taeja. When Polt faced a Kespa player, he got rekt 6-0. Aligulac is saying TvZ is still in favor of Z even post HB patch too. What annoys me is saying random claims which are not true like what parkufarku did. To be fair Polt was undefeated against Kespa protosses (Dear, herO, Rain, Classic, Stork) before Trap. But 6-0, man. Classic vs Maru was also kinda one-sided. Maru crushing a lot of non top-tier protosses in Korea is what gives the impression that TvP is playable. But if one gathers statistics for only the best protosses (Kespa/GSL) vs the best terrans, it is quite easy to prove that TvP is still very imbalanced. | ||
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TheMooseHeed
United Kingdom535 Posts
On June 26 2014 03:48 Tyrhanius wrote: Mutas fire rate is 1.5, only 0.4 faster than corruptor... Queen has a faster fire rate than mutalisk... Just watch this : Mutas fighting PDD whitout army. Imaging if there are some thor/seeker with this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s_iEFX-75Q#t=57m47s And the Difference is raven never die, while mutas got crushed by thor/viking tourett. Zergs don't make 40 mutas and kill raven. T just build 20 raven, while Zerg build 80-100 mutas to remplace this. If the map is cut, of course Zerg can't have more gaz so loose. Could you maybe remove hydras projectile? Then you could target fire to snipe them and give them something to do against mech. I can't see how that would affect anything else in other matchups. | ||
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caznitch
Canada645 Posts
On June 26 2014 02:14 SirPinky wrote: I agree about the strategy you are proposing, but I disagree about your fungal comment. Even Flash, Terran God, was one chain fungal away from losing all his Raven. One fungal more and he would have lost game - it was luck in my opion he didn't. You are talking about a Terran that has "perfect micro"; "perfect mechanics"; and "perfect game sense" when you claim that chain fungal will not work if the Terran plays slow. Ravens NEED to advance with tanks. And any good mech player also uses Ravens for occasional harass (i.e. Auto Turret Zerg expansions). To claim that a Terran will make no mistakes in a 30+ minute game (b/c TvZ mech is usually very long) is an illogical comment. If the Viking/Raven ball is out of place once, it can easily lose Terran the game. See my comments above about other options. My only input is that the Flash v Life game was one of the best I've ever seen in sc2 and I wouldn't want there to be a sc that doesn't make it possible. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
That PDD discussion might give us something useful. Discuss current stats (T getting slightly better vs Z/P, a lot more Terrans in Proleague), discuss possible further nerfs for Zerg or go for a discussion on the map pool. But stop being pathetic about which aspect of your race is harder. It's not about that at all. | ||
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