On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote: Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P. Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ? Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
Faust such a troll. Someone suggest than you need 2 fungal to kill a PDD (notice Infestor has 10 range and tank 13, so you probably loose some infestor, + it takes 6.7s to kill a PDD wich active during this time) = OP it's like removing Terran !
Zerg just doesn't have a single even soft counter to raven, but it's OK. Even GSL caster say it's ridiculous. Then you say : whithout raven T can't counter SH (and tank/bio/drop doesn't counter SH ? !), but it's ok Zerg have no counter to raven.
Zerg has a counter to Ravens: Mutalisks The high firerate of Mutas depletes PDDs pretty quickly. The speed of Mutas lets them easily dodge HSMs and Autoturrets.
If I can have 20 Ravens gas-wise, you can have 40 Mutas.
Mutas fire rate is 1.5, only 0.4 faster than corruptor... Queen has a faster fire rate than mutalisk... Just watch this : Mutas fighting PDD whitout army. Imaging if there are some thor/seeker with this...
And the Difference is raven never die, while mutas got crushed by thor/viking tourett. Zergs don't make 40 mutas and kill raven. T just build 20 raven, while Zerg build 80-100 mutas to remplace this. If the map is cut, of course Zerg can't have more gaz so loose.
Could you maybe remove hydras projectile? Then you could target fire to snipe them and give them something to do against mech. I can't see how that would affect anything else in other matchups.
I made that suggestion instead of the dps buff. You need to realize that this would make hydras a lot stronger. No more overkill. Their effective dps would be much better. But i could imagine such a buff in combination with a fix to swarmhosts. The hydra still is kind of a underused unit imho.
On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote: Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P. Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ? Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
Faust such a troll. Someone suggest than you need 2 fungal to kill a PDD (notice Infestor has 10 range and tank 13, so you probably loose some infestor, + it takes 6.7s to kill a PDD wich active during this time) = OP it's like removing Terran !
Zerg just doesn't have a single even soft counter to raven, but it's OK. Even GSL caster say it's ridiculous. Then you say : whithout raven T can't counter SH (and tank/bio/drop doesn't counter SH ? !), but it's ok Zerg have no counter to raven.
Zerg has a counter to Ravens: Mutalisks The high firerate of Mutas depletes PDDs pretty quickly. The speed of Mutas lets them easily dodge HSMs and Autoturrets.
If I can have 20 Ravens gas-wise, you can have 40 Mutas.
Mutas fire rate is 1.5, only 0.4 faster than corruptor... Queen has a faster fire rate than mutalisk... Just watch this : Mutas fighting PDD whitout army. Imaging if there are some thor/seeker with this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s_iEFX-75Q#t=57m47s
And the Difference is raven never die, while mutas got crushed by thor/viking tourett. Zergs don't make 40 mutas and kill raven. T just build 20 raven, while Zerg build 80-100 mutas to remplace this. If the map is cut, of course Zerg can't have more gaz so loose.
Could you maybe remove hydras projectile? Then you could target fire to snipe them and give them something to do against mech. I can't see how that would affect anything else in other matchups.
I made that suggestion instead of the dps buff. You need to realize that this would make hydras a lot stronger. No more overkill. Their effective dps would be much better. But i could imagine such a buff in combination with a fix to swarmhosts. The hydra still is kind of a underused unit imho.
It's underused because it is expensive, not that much better over the roach (the only big advantage is the ability to negate forcefields). Everything Hydras can do, another unit probably does equally well, I'd rather have a SH instead of 2 Hydra's.
On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote: Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P. Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ? Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
Faust such a troll. Someone suggest than you need 2 fungal to kill a PDD (notice Infestor has 10 range and tank 13, so you probably loose some infestor, + it takes 6.7s to kill a PDD wich active during this time) = OP it's like removing Terran !
Zerg just doesn't have a single even soft counter to raven, but it's OK. Even GSL caster say it's ridiculous. Then you say : whithout raven T can't counter SH (and tank/bio/drop doesn't counter SH ? !), but it's ok Zerg have no counter to raven.
Zerg has a counter to Ravens: Mutalisks The high firerate of Mutas depletes PDDs pretty quickly. The speed of Mutas lets them easily dodge HSMs and Autoturrets.
If I can have 20 Ravens gas-wise, you can have 40 Mutas.
Mutas fire rate is 1.5, only 0.4 faster than corruptor... Queen has a faster fire rate than mutalisk... Just watch this : Mutas fighting PDD whitout army. Imaging if there are some thor/seeker with this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s_iEFX-75Q#t=57m47s
And the Difference is raven never die, while mutas got crushed by thor/viking tourett. Zergs don't make 40 mutas and kill raven. T just build 20 raven, while Zerg build 80-100 mutas to remplace this. If the map is cut, of course Zerg can't have more gaz so loose.
Could you maybe remove hydras projectile? Then you could target fire to snipe them and give them something to do against mech. I can't see how that would affect anything else in other matchups.
I made that suggestion instead of the dps buff. You need to realize that this would make hydras a lot stronger. No more overkill. Their effective dps would be much better. But i could imagine such a buff in combination with a fix to swarmhosts. The hydra still is kind of a underused unit imho.
It's underused because it is expensive, not that much better over the roach (the only big advantage is the ability to negate forcefields). Everything Hydras can do, another unit probably does equally well, I'd rather have a SH instead of 2 Hydra's.
Hydras have a major range advantage over the roach and can hit air. Their DPS is higher as well. They're cheaper than stalkers and trade evenly with them. It's just that roaches are pretty close to free, so there's that.
honestly the promblem with the hydra has never really been its dps, hydra dps is great and always has been the problem with hydras is that there expensive and they are made of wet tissue paper heck the whole hydra/ling playstyle in zvp falls apart the second 1 collosus hits the field the armys so fragile XD
On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote: Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P. Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ? Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
LOL Faust you are one funny guy, logged in just to say this comment made my day
Yea i'm surprised people still want to nerf terran... Have you seen proleague results? If Kassia didn't exist, TvZ would be around 10% winrate
Edit:
I checked and it'd be around 38%. PvT on the other hand: PvT: 12-2 (85.7%) LOLOL omfg i can't stop laughing, this game is so balanced...
Let's rely on pro league results while ignoring all the tournament data and how top Korean Terrans are overseas.
Even the Korean commentators saying how ridiculous Terran play is and let's ignore all that, yup.
Late game TvZ, Raven has always been a huge problem. Blizzard even admitted they are looking into it
BTW, Mech is not a necessity. That's like a Protoss player complaining sky toss isn't a viable standard opening vs. Terran if scouted
Lol seriously ? Terran is ridiculous ? Winning 2 tournaments since the beginning of the year is ridiculous ? Wtf man. There hasn't been a single TvT in GSL for ages, not a terran in final GSL for more than a year. Please keep using fake argument like "korean commentators saying terran is ridiculous". Yup.
Btw on what tournament data are you basing your claim ? It's been at least 6 months that terran is the weakest race basing on tournament results.
Faust please, cool down. No need to attack everyone immediately.
I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just blaffed that people dare saying such non sense. Claiming that terran is overpowered in foreign tournament is ridiculous considering the only guy that won a tournament is Taeja. When Polt faced a Kespa player, he got rekt 6-0. Aligulac is saying TvZ is still in favor of Z even post HB patch too. What annoys me is saying random claims which are not true like what parkufarku did.
But 6-0, man. Classic vs Maru was also kinda one-sided. Maru crushing a lot of non top-tier protosses in Korea is what gives the impression that TvP is playable. But if one gathers statistics for only the best protosses (Kespa/GSL) vs the best terrans, it is quite easy to prove that TvP is still very imbalanced.
Maru didn't do well in proleague either last month(s). A TL writer said he was having wrist issues, and that he was sick when playing Classic, so his recent TvP results might not say anything about the state of the match-up. I think Bbyong is doing quite well, in contrast, but I haven't followed it closely.
On June 26 2014 08:01 Enigmasc wrote: honestly the promblem with the hydra has never really been its dps, hydra dps is great and always has been the problem with hydras is that there expensive and they are made of wet tissue paper heck the whole hydra/ling playstyle in zvp falls apart the second 1 collosus hits the field the armys so fragile XD
You know there is something wrong when Locusts are a better unit than Hydras.
On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote: Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P. Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ? Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
LOL Faust you are one funny guy, logged in just to say this comment made my day
Yea i'm surprised people still want to nerf terran... Have you seen proleague results? If Kassia didn't exist, TvZ would be around 10% winrate
Edit:
I checked and it'd be around 38%. PvT on the other hand: PvT: 12-2 (85.7%) LOLOL omfg i can't stop laughing, this game is so balanced...
Let's rely on pro league results while ignoring all the tournament data and how top Korean Terrans are overseas.
Even the Korean commentators saying how ridiculous Terran play is and let's ignore all that, yup.
Late game TvZ, Raven has always been a huge problem. Blizzard even admitted they are looking into it
BTW, Mech is not a necessity. That's like a Protoss player complaining sky toss isn't a viable standard opening vs. Terran if scouted
Lol seriously ? Terran is ridiculous ? Winning 2 tournaments since the beginning of the year is ridiculous ? Wtf man. There hasn't been a single TvT in GSL for ages, not a terran in final GSL for more than a year. Please keep using fake argument like "korean commentators saying terran is ridiculous". Yup.
Btw on what tournament data are you basing your claim ? It's been at least 6 months that terran is the weakest race basing on tournament results.
Faust please, cool down. No need to attack everyone immediately.
I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just blaffed that people dare saying such non sense. Claiming that terran is overpowered in foreign tournament is ridiculous considering the only guy that won a tournament is Taeja. When Polt faced a Kespa player, he got rekt 6-0. Aligulac is saying TvZ is still in favor of Z even post HB patch too. What annoys me is saying random claims which are not true like what parkufarku did.
But 6-0, man. Classic vs Maru was also kinda one-sided. Maru crushing a lot of non top-tier protosses in Korea is what gives the impression that TvP is playable. But if one gathers statistics for only the best protosses (Kespa/GSL) vs the best terrans, it is quite easy to prove that TvP is still very imbalanced.
Maru didn't do well in proleague either last month(s). A TL writer said he was having wrist issues, and that he was sick when playing Classic, so his recent TvP results might not say anything about the state of the match-up. I think Bbyong is doing quite well, in contrast, but I haven't followed it closely.
Bbyong is 47.83% in TvP vs Koreans since April. This is abysmal for somebody many considered a top terran (which I don't disagree).
On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote: Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P. Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ? Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
LOL Faust you are one funny guy, logged in just to say this comment made my day
Yea i'm surprised people still want to nerf terran... Have you seen proleague results? If Kassia didn't exist, TvZ would be around 10% winrate
Edit:
I checked and it'd be around 38%. PvT on the other hand: PvT: 12-2 (85.7%) LOLOL omfg i can't stop laughing, this game is so balanced...
Let's rely on pro league results while ignoring all the tournament data and how top Korean Terrans are overseas.
Even the Korean commentators saying how ridiculous Terran play is and let's ignore all that, yup.
Late game TvZ, Raven has always been a huge problem. Blizzard even admitted they are looking into it
BTW, Mech is not a necessity. That's like a Protoss player complaining sky toss isn't a viable standard opening vs. Terran if scouted
Lol seriously ? Terran is ridiculous ? Winning 2 tournaments since the beginning of the year is ridiculous ? Wtf man. There hasn't been a single TvT in GSL for ages, not a terran in final GSL for more than a year. Please keep using fake argument like "korean commentators saying terran is ridiculous". Yup.
Btw on what tournament data are you basing your claim ? It's been at least 6 months that terran is the weakest race basing on tournament results.
Faust please, cool down. No need to attack everyone immediately.
I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just blaffed that people dare saying such non sense. Claiming that terran is overpowered in foreign tournament is ridiculous considering the only guy that won a tournament is Taeja. When Polt faced a Kespa player, he got rekt 6-0. Aligulac is saying TvZ is still in favor of Z even post HB patch too. What annoys me is saying random claims which are not true like what parkufarku did.
But 6-0, man. Classic vs Maru was also kinda one-sided. Maru crushing a lot of non top-tier protosses in Korea is what gives the impression that TvP is playable. But if one gathers statistics for only the best protosses (Kespa/GSL) vs the best terrans, it is quite easy to prove that TvP is still very imbalanced.
Maru didn't do well in proleague either last month(s). A TL writer said he was having wrist issues, and that he was sick when playing Classic, so his recent TvP results might not say anything about the state of the match-up. I think Bbyong is doing quite well, in contrast, but I haven't followed it closely.
To me it kinda looks like lategame TvP is actually the real imbalance atm. You see all top terran players scv pull even though it no longer seems to have more than a 50% success rate. To me that implies that even the best korean terran players doens't feel they can actually win in the late game.
There are also some huge obvious "imbalances"/assymetries. Warping in Zealots and sending them around the map requires almost no APM for the protoss players, which allows him to focus alot on his main army. Meanwhile, it's very mechanically demanding for the terran player to deslect a part of his army to deal with the Zealots while maintaining hotkeys, then kite the Zealots (that are harassing the terran players base), while still micro'ing your main army well.
It obviously isn't helping that many of the maps forces the terran player (in the late game) to have a difficult time securing his bases. Frost comes to mind as it has really difficult 5th base. That was different from back in WOL where terran late game actually looked somewhat decent with heavy Ghost play.
please lets not turn this back into the my race is harder than yours rubbish aslo lategame protoss army and terran army in tvp hasnt changed at all since wol the onl thing thats changed is how the toss gets there?
On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote: Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P. Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ? Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
Faust such a troll. Someone suggest than you need 2 fungal to kill a PDD (notice Infestor has 10 range and tank 13, so you probably loose some infestor, + it takes 6.7s to kill a PDD wich active during this time) = OP it's like removing Terran !
Zerg just doesn't have a single even soft counter to raven, but it's OK. Even GSL caster say it's ridiculous. Then you say : whithout raven T can't counter SH (and tank/bio/drop doesn't counter SH ? !), but it's ok Zerg have no counter to raven.
Zerg has a counter to Ravens: Mutalisks The high firerate of Mutas depletes PDDs pretty quickly. The speed of Mutas lets them easily dodge HSMs and Autoturrets.
If I can have 20 Ravens gas-wise, you can have 40 Mutas.
Mutas fire rate is 1.5, only 0.4 faster than corruptor... Queen has a faster fire rate than mutalisk... Just watch this : Mutas fighting PDD whitout army. Imaging if there are some thor/seeker with this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s_iEFX-75Q#t=57m47s
And the Difference is raven never die, while mutas got crushed by thor/viking tourett. Zergs don't make 40 mutas and kill raven. T just build 20 raven, while Zerg build 80-100 mutas to remplace this. If the map is cut, of course Zerg can't have more gaz so loose.
Could you maybe remove hydras projectile? Then you could target fire to snipe them and give them something to do against mech. I can't see how that would affect anything else in other matchups.
I made that suggestion instead of the dps buff. You need to realize that this would make hydras a lot stronger. No more overkill. Their effective dps would be much better. But i could imagine such a buff in combination with a fix to swarmhosts. The hydra still is kind of a underused unit imho.
You can still make it so that it still has overkill but can snipe PDDs (roach).
On June 26 2014 15:31 Enigmasc wrote: please lets not turn this back into the my race is harder than yours rubbish aslo lategame protoss army and terran army in tvp hasnt changed at all since wol the onl thing thats changed is how the toss gets there?
And in a RTS that makes all the difference?
Also, what Hider posted is how you discuss and argue balance, with real game situations, stats, comparisons etc, not the bronze league "this unit need moar x becasue it's CoOl".
On June 26 2014 15:31 Enigmasc wrote: please lets not turn this back into the my race is harder than yours rubbish aslo lategame protoss army and terran army in tvp hasnt changed at all since wol the onl thing thats changed is how the toss gets there?
And in a RTS that makes all the difference?
Èxactly. Toss reaches it faster, with MSC support and Tempest to mae PF Ghost Viking impossible.
On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote: Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P. Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ? Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
Faust such a troll. Someone suggest than you need 2 fungal to kill a PDD (notice Infestor has 10 range and tank 13, so you probably loose some infestor, + it takes 6.7s to kill a PDD wich active during this time) = OP it's like removing Terran !
Zerg just doesn't have a single even soft counter to raven, but it's OK. Even GSL caster say it's ridiculous. Then you say : whithout raven T can't counter SH (and tank/bio/drop doesn't counter SH ? !), but it's ok Zerg have no counter to raven.
Zerg has a counter to Ravens: Mutalisks The high firerate of Mutas depletes PDDs pretty quickly. The speed of Mutas lets them easily dodge HSMs and Autoturrets.
If I can have 20 Ravens gas-wise, you can have 40 Mutas.
Mutas fire rate is 1.5, only 0.4 faster than corruptor... Queen has a faster fire rate than mutalisk... Just watch this : Mutas fighting PDD whitout army. Imaging if there are some thor/seeker with this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s_iEFX-75Q#t=57m47s
And the Difference is raven never die, while mutas got crushed by thor/viking tourett. Zergs don't make 40 mutas and kill raven. T just build 20 raven, while Zerg build 80-100 mutas to remplace this. If the map is cut, of course Zerg can't have more gaz so loose.
Could you maybe remove hydras projectile? Then you could target fire to snipe them and give them something to do against mech. I can't see how that would affect anything else in other matchups.
I made that suggestion instead of the dps buff. You need to realize that this would make hydras a lot stronger. No more overkill. Their effective dps would be much better. But i could imagine such a buff in combination with a fix to swarmhosts. The hydra still is kind of a underused unit imho.
You can still make it so that it still has overkill but can snipe PDDs (roach).
Good point. PDDs can shoot down lasers (stalkers) but not acid (roach) :D
On June 26 2014 08:01 Enigmasc wrote: honestly the promblem with the hydra has never really been its dps, hydra dps is great and always has been the problem with hydras is that there expensive and they are made of wet tissue paper heck the whole hydra/ling playstyle in zvp falls apart the second 1 collosus hits the field the armys so fragile XD
That's just not true. If a units strong attributes are worth it you will learn to deal with its weak ones. Units with strong attributes often are more interesting. I like the meatshield/damagedealer roles of roaches and hydras and if anything i would like to see it emphasized . Increasing their life would be a very bad move.
you guys need to learn to play, as terran you should be learning the op build of 1 rax expand into dying at the 20-30 minute mark, its the best style to play
On June 25 2014 04:51 Faust852 wrote: Yeah lets make mech as useless against Z as it is against P. Why not just removing the terran race so you won't have to play against things you don't like ? Terrans don't like playing against mutas, just remove them already.
LOL Faust you are one funny guy, logged in just to say this comment made my day
Yea i'm surprised people still want to nerf terran... Have you seen proleague results? If Kassia didn't exist, TvZ would be around 10% winrate
Edit:
I checked and it'd be around 38%. PvT on the other hand: PvT: 12-2 (85.7%) LOLOL omfg i can't stop laughing, this game is so balanced...
Let's rely on pro league results while ignoring all the tournament data and how top Korean Terrans are overseas.
Even the Korean commentators saying how ridiculous Terran play is and let's ignore all that, yup.
Late game TvZ, Raven has always been a huge problem. Blizzard even admitted they are looking into it
BTW, Mech is not a necessity. That's like a Protoss player complaining sky toss isn't a viable standard opening vs. Terran if scouted
Lol seriously ? Terran is ridiculous ? Winning 2 tournaments since the beginning of the year is ridiculous ? Wtf man. There hasn't been a single TvT in GSL for ages, not a terran in final GSL for more than a year. Please keep using fake argument like "korean commentators saying terran is ridiculous". Yup.
Btw on what tournament data are you basing your claim ? It's been at least 6 months that terran is the weakest race basing on tournament results.
Faust please, cool down. No need to attack everyone immediately.
I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just blaffed that people dare saying such non sense. Claiming that terran is overpowered in foreign tournament is ridiculous considering the only guy that won a tournament is Taeja. When Polt faced a Kespa player, he got rekt 6-0. Aligulac is saying TvZ is still in favor of Z even post HB patch too. What annoys me is saying random claims which are not true like what parkufarku did.
But 6-0, man. Classic vs Maru was also kinda one-sided. Maru crushing a lot of non top-tier protosses in Korea is what gives the impression that TvP is playable. But if one gathers statistics for only the best protosses (Kespa/GSL) vs the best terrans, it is quite easy to prove that TvP is still very imbalanced.
Maru didn't do well in proleague either last month(s). A TL writer said he was having wrist issues, and that he was sick when playing Classic, so his recent TvP results might not say anything about the state of the match-up. I think Bbyong is doing quite well, in contrast, but I haven't followed it closely.
There are also some huge obvious "imbalances"/assymetries. Warping in Zealots and sending them around the map requires almost no APM for the protoss players, which allows him to focus alot on his main army. Meanwhile, it's very mechanically demanding for the terran player to deslect a part of his army to deal with the Zealots while maintaining hotkeys, then kite the Zealots (that are harassing the terran players base), while still micro'ing your main army well.
In my opinion there should be proper interface options to deselect units (from control groups). I think that for a modern RTS it's a bit silly that players can't cope with sending a few units back to defend against harassment without everything falling apart.
In my opinion there should be proper interface options to deselect units (from control groups). I think that for a modern RTS it's a bit silly that players can't cope with sending a few units back to defend against harassment without everything falling apart.
I think this line of thinking is spot on. As I was reading the last page I taught about a new hotkey that would allow you to drag a box while holding said key and everything inside the box would get deselected. Just like everyone got used to worker autosplit (a few diehard bw fans are probably still bitter about it), I imagine this change would get a similar response and would very possibly further raise the quality of games.
In my opinion there should be proper interface options to deselect units (from control groups). I think that for a modern RTS it's a bit silly that players can't cope with sending a few units back to defend against harassment without everything falling apart.
I think this line of thinking is spot on. As I was reading the last page I taught about a new hotkey that would allow you to drag a box while holding said key and everything inside the box would get deselected. Just like everyone got used to worker autosplit (a few diehard bw fans are probably still bitter about it), I imagine this change would get a similar response and would very possibly further raise the quality of games.
In general, I think the whole system is very clunky from the core. Setting up ever-changing controls, rectangular selection boxes, overlapping key functionalities (double click and ctrl-click), usage of the move-command as the standard-1-click-movement when you usually want to attack-move unless special micro-conditions are met and so on and so on... The whole system is built upon 1990s games before ctrl-groups and those were only added later on, when I think a modern RTS game should rather have the approach: "your armies get *intelligently* split into various, easy to cylce through selection possibilities; oh and by the way, you can also individually control your units if you need to".
A key like you describe one might help, but I think it would just stockpile clunky bandages on a clunky system.
On June 26 2014 15:31 Enigmasc wrote: please lets not turn this back into the my race is harder than yours rubbish aslo lategame protoss army and terran army in tvp hasnt changed at all since wol the onl thing thats changed is how the toss gets there?
You should reread my post. I actually argued that there is a difference between WOL and HOTS: Expansions are more difficult to secure on most of the new maps which makes Zealot-warp ins a ton harder to deal with in the late game.
Èxactly. Toss reaches it faster, with MSC support and Tempest to mae PF Ghost Viking impossible.
Im not actually sure they reach it faster? They don't really get a 3rd faster I would argue and they still have to fear the 15 minute scv pull. But perhaps one effect of the MSC is the upgrade timing? Toss's can now tech heavily while upgrading on 2 bases. In WOL they could only do one of the two things?
And then ofc, it's probably also worth pointing out the Reaper opening does limit terran a bit compared to simply being able to gasless expand very safely (without really having to worry about blink-stalkers or Oracles). As I remember it, you didn't really rush out a reactor back in WOL, and you would start your Factory faster --> Faster Medivacs.
It's however debateable whether that really has had a significant effect on the tradeoff since SpeedMedivacs makes terran dropplay vs a fast protoss 3rd pretty strong. At the end of WOL, dropplay was almost dead in TvP at the highest levels.
Another possibiblity is that protosses also figured out how micro against heavy Ghost play a ton better. In WOL protosses would often times commit entirely with their army which made them very vulnerable to mass spam EMP. Today, it seems that they are a ton better at poking --> moving back --> force emp's to be wasted --> trade a bit --> safely retreat behind Psy Storms --> warp-in new units. They have become more patient in their army engagements which makes it a ton harder for the terran "deathball" to ever get that really effective trade that we occationally saw in WOL.
In my opinion there should be proper interface options to deselect units (from control groups). I think that for a modern RTS it's a bit silly that players can't cope with sending a few units back to defend against harassment without everything falling apart.
Yeh, there probably should be done something here. One could ofc argue that it increases the skill-cap, but I also feels it simply creates more deathball scenario as it's really really challenging once you get multiple control groups of units to split them up. Even the best terran players (flash, innovation etc) have a lot of trouble deselecting their units and often times use reinforcements only to deal with Zealot runbys. Or they will opt to move their entire army back to deal with the runbys. When toss reaches the critical bank/Warpgate count they can warp-in enough Zealots to simply overrun terran reinforcements/kill bunkers, which probably is a reason why terran doesn't like to opt for a passive lategame approach, but prefer the scv-push.
On June 26 2014 15:31 Enigmasc wrote: please lets not turn this back into the my race is harder than yours rubbish aslo lategame protoss army and terran army in tvp hasnt changed at all since wol the onl thing thats changed is how the toss gets there?
You should reread my post. I actually argued that there is a difference between WOL and HOTS: Expansions are more difficult to secure on most of the new maps which makes Zealot-warp ins a ton harder to deal with in the late game.
Èxactly. Toss reaches it faster, with MSC support and Tempest to mae PF Ghost Viking impossible.
Im not actually sure they reach it faster? They don't really get a 3rd faster I would argue and they still have to fear the 15 minute scv pull. But perhaps one effect of the MSC is the upgrade timing? Toss's can now tech heavily while upgrading on 2 bases. In WOL they could only do one of the two things?
And then ofc, it's probably also worth pointing out the Reaper opening does limit terran a bit compared to simply being able to gasless expand very safely (without really having to worry about blink-stalkers or Oracles). As I remember it, you didn't really rush out a reactor back in WOL, and you would start your Factory faster --> Faster Medivacs.
It's however debateable whether that really has had a significant effect on the tradeoff since SpeedMedivacs makes terran dropplay vs a fast protoss 3rd pretty strong. At the end of WOL, dropplay was almost dead in TvP at the highest levels.
Another possibiblity is that protosses also figured out how micro against heavy Ghost play a ton better. In WOL protosses would often times commit entirely with their army which made them very vulnerable to mass spam EMP. Today, it seems that they are a ton better at poking --> moving back --> force emp's to be wasted --> trade a bit --> safely retreat behind Psy Storms --> warp-in new units. They have become more patient in their army engagements which makes it a ton harder for the terran "deathball" to ever get that really effective trade that we occationally saw in WOL.
In my opinion there should be proper interface options to deselect units (from control groups). I think that for a modern RTS it's a bit silly that players can't cope with sending a few units back to defend against harassment without everything falling apart.
Yeh, there probably should be done something here. One could ofc argue that it increases the skill-cap, but I also feels it simply creates more deathball scenario as it's really really challenging once you get multiple control groups of units to split them up. Even the best terran players (flash, innovation etc) have a lot of trouble deselecting their units and often times use reinforcements only to deal with Zealot runbys. Or they will opt to move their entire army back to deal with the runbys. When toss reaches the critical bank/Warpgate count they can warp-in enough Zealots to simply overrun terran reinforcements/kill bunkers, which probably is a reason why terran doesn't like to opt for a passive lategame approach, but prefer the scv-push.
i sort of read that as a complaint of rptoss being easier mainly due to the second paragraph of the first message which came across as whine, tho that maybe me jumping to conclutions since the last few pages before this have basically been that
tho honeslty i dont think toss is changed at all in lategame, granted bases on these maps are more exposed, but this is true for the protoss aswell especially on maos like merry-go-round because even the third is so exposed
though i dont think protoss can get to lategame faster i do think the msc allows them to get there in a much more stable way, hence are becoming more practised in how to play lategame pvt
tho honeslty i dont think toss is changed at all in lategame, granted bases on these maps are more exposed, but this is true for the protoss aswell especially on maos like merry-go-round because even the third is so exposed
Well a difficult 3rd to secure favors terran, while difficult 4th/5ths favor protoss (in general) since terran becomes less mobile than the protoss player once he starts mixing in more Ghosts and toss gets a lot of Warpgates. Most maps today have 4th/5ths that are much harder to defend than on maps like Daybreak/Cloud Kingdom. That combined with protoss players now being capable of trading against the terran deathball (without losing their whole army in a very costineffective trade) are IMO the two most probable reasons for why terran seems to be not confident late game TvP (relative to WOL).
However, note that I also questioned the explanation that it was more difficult for protoss to get their late game compostion in WOL. I don't think that's actually the main reason for why we see almost all terrans scv-pull (despite not being particularly succesful atm.).
though i dont think protoss can get to lategame faster i do think the msc allows them to get there in a much more stable way, hence are becoming more practised in how to play lategame pvt
Yeh I don't think that's correct actually. If we look at TvP anno 2012, what aggressive builds did terran actually do? As I remember it, dropplay was nonexistent in midgame. 1/1/1's had basically been figured out. Banshee plays, 2 rax's and other stuff very uncommon as well. A I remember it, we saw a lot more late game TvP's in 2012 than post HOTS. Post HOTS the game is much more likely to end in the early game or the later stages of the midgame.
I mainly believe the Msc has had an effect of making early game TvP a ton easier, but given the introduction of Speed-medivacs, midgame is harder for toss relative to WOL. In an average game, those two differences could very well even out.
EPT
