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On June 28 2014 04:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2014 03:57 Hider wrote:On June 28 2014 03:55 Hider wrote:On June 28 2014 02:52 DinoMight wrote:
What about an upgrade that requires armory to increase move speed of hellbats slightly? Maybe same as unstimmed Marines a little faster than unstimmed marines.
Looking for something that helps Terran without breaking the game early or having too big an impact on other matchups. Could help mech vs. Z too.
Does this make mech too strong TvT?
I kind of like watching mech TvT to be honest. That would actually be one of the worst changes you could make. First of all helbat mech already is a pretty strong "amove" army, and secondly it would also deincnetivize useage of Medivacs inside Hellbats which IMO is extremely cool. Well I just meant to allow Hellbats to be used with bio compositions more. Hellbats are extremely boring a long with bio. That wouldn't change even if it was a bit faster in movement speed. You can't do anything besides a-moving with the unit anyway.
The weakness of Mech (mainly vs Protoss) is that the other units aren't really strong at their roles. Tanks in particular can be countered a thousand ways, but without them, there is a glaring whole in how to deal with larger ground armies.
Tanks itself aren't bad though. In terms of efficiency/cost, it's very comparable to the BW version. Instead, it's Immortals hardened shield that is absolutely terrible for the game. I don't know why Blizzard didn't remove the shield from HOTS and compensated the Immortal in a different way. IMO one of the most obvious changes they could have done. Yeah, tanks aren't really weak vs Protoss. But I think they kind of lack a true purpose. A reason to build them, when the opponent builds something else. E.g. vs Zerg you want them because they are good vs roaches, hydras and swarm hosts. vs terran, they are great vs marines and marauders in direct engagements. Against both races, there are clear triggers that allow you to use tanks if the opponent goes for certain units (though zerg can avoid those very often). Even if not meching, just because tanks are directly strong in certain scenarios. Against Protoss, yeah tanks are kind of good vs stalkers and reasonable vs Colossi. But good enough that you would ever think: "hey, he is building stalker and colossi and I have a factory. Building tanks is a good choice here!"? That's imo where they suck. They have no relation that would give you a real advantage, but relations where you can get huge disadvantages when using them. So on average you are always worse off than when not using them.
Well I don't think a composition like bio + tanks can ever get to work in Sc2 vs protoss, but I think most people would be satifisfied if terran had the option of using mech or bio vs toss (as long as it's not a really lame form of turtly/passie mech).
Getting rid of hardened shield would be a big first step. Next step is to make it possible for terran to harass in the midgame vs warp-in'ed Stalkers/cannons. My solution here (as previosuly stated) would be to change the Hellbat in the following ways;
1) Hellbats worse vs light
2) Hellbats better vs armored
3) Hellion/hellbat transformation time reduced significantly (should probably be an upgrade so terran doens't get a "free" advantage).
Next step ofc is to fix the air battles. Protoss air in Sc2 is IMO extremely poorly designed and PDD is very lame as well. So in order to make lategame mech and protoss air more interesting, we need a completely redesign of these units/abilities as well.
Ideally, even more changes could be implemenyed, but with these changes, I think we will already have a mech that is viable and somewhat fun to play and play against.
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Biggest problem with tanks in TvP is that they're countered by many things that P has.
Archons, chargelots, VRs, Immortals, Phoenix all kill tanks like nobody's business. Tanks are too immobile to be useful in pushes. Good P's always have pylons around the map and can easily flank with a small group of warped-in zealots from behind and kill the tanks. Tanks are unsieged on paper sound like a good unit, but they're too slow and bulky to be good unsieged in TvP. I think there should be an upgrade on the factory tech lab that allows tanks to do less friendly fire splash damage and also possibly give them a buff to shield damage. Because right now....it takes 11 sieged tank shots to kill an archon assuming 0/0 upgrades for everyone.
The one thing I don't really understand why Blizzard designed the Colossus is why it's so mobile. It goes against the design of siege units in general. Siege units should be slow and have drawbacks to counter their range. Colossi are quite mobile, they can walk up and down cliffs, and their shots also don't do any friendly fire.
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Archons dont kill tanks though.
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Third Protoss GSL-champion in a row <3
Game is really not fun to watch at the moment, feels like Protoss is just taking over everything and wins everywhere :/
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On June 28 2014 18:13 Glorfindel! wrote:
Third Protoss GSL-champion in a row <3
Game is really not fun to watch at the moment, feels like Protoss is just taking over everything and wins everywhere :/
But it was always the same Protoss winning. He might just be on fire.
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Innovation on TvP balance.
I think in TvP it is pretty even in the early and midgame but in the lategame protoss has an advantage. Facing Protoss players who are good in forcing you into a longer game are hard to deal with.
So yeh, guess my theory was correct. Terrasn don't really feel like they can win late game TvP, so they opt for scv pulls. Pretty sad in my opinion, and I would really like if Blizzard made it apparent that they were aware of the potential TvP late game issue.
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In my opinion Terrans only SCV pull, because TvP lategame is way harder than TvZ or TvT lategame. I don't like pulling SCVs but I do very often if the Protoss goes for Colos. It's not fun to play, but the disadvantage for Terrans in the lategame is just to big to win games.
On the other hand Protoss has still some early and mid game allins while they can also opt in for a safe transition into the lategame (if both players are equally skilled). Hopefully Blizzard focusses on the lategame in the next patches (weaken Protoss or strengthen Terran lategame units, but which and how?).
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On June 28 2014 21:13 TurboMaN wrote:
In my opinion Terrans only SCV pull, because TvP lategame is way harder than TvZ or TvT lategame. I don't like pulling SCVs but I do very often if the Protoss goes for Colos. It's not fun to play, but the disadvantage for Terrans in the lategame is just to big to win games.
On the other hand Protoss has still some early and mid game allins while they can also opt in for a safe transition into the lategame (if both players are equally skilled). Hopefully Blizzard focusses on the lategame in the next patches (weaken Protoss or strengthen Terran lategame units, but which and how?).
Have you tried the Polt playstyle of just mass dropping all game long, so you never really get into that late game phase? I find that very fun as it's v ery micro and multitaskbased, even though it probably isn't viable at the highest levels.
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Taeja probably has the best late game TvP in the world. His two recent Premier wins were amazing. Ghost/Viking Orchestra.
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I find Polt style is great and fun when it works, but soul crushing when it doesn't. Maybe I'm just facing better Protoss's but these days it's getting harder and harder to end the game in the mid game. I just gotta play better but Protoss has been a headache just like it always is
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On June 28 2014 23:54 Chaggi wrote:
I find Polt style is great and fun when it works, but soul crushing when it doesn't. Maybe I'm just facing better Protoss's but these days it's getting harder and harder to end the game in the mid game. I just gotta play better but Protoss has been a headache just like it always is
His style works against NA GM's, so unless you play against better players than that, I don't think you have to worry about your opponents being too good. I actually don't find losses soulcrushing at all since I always (after a loss) feel like I could have have won the game if my micro and multtiasking had been a bit better. That's a much better feeling than lossing due to build order unluck IMO.
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They need to nerf warp prisms, theyre too good. Or give ghost stim pack :3
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Do you have a replay/Vod or the bo of Polts build?
Dropping usually only works if the Protoss is playing somewhat aggressive right? I face Protoss in Master who camp in 2-3 bases and defend with Stalkers vs Blink.
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I really hate protoss right now
but I don't know what to complain about.
Somebody help me.
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On June 29 2014 01:24 neoghaleon55 wrote:I really hate protoss right now but I don't know what to complain about. Somebody help me.
Complain about soo. Its his fault they're 3 protoss GSL winners in a row.
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T v P lategame is somewhat missunderstood i feel like.
A true ghost viking composition is in theory at least on par if not stronger vs P lategame.
The issue being that in these scenarios control is key. And the T lategame army requires significantly more control then the P lategame army. Right now there are only a couple of Terrans who willingly go to the lategame vs P and their control shows it.
It becomes sort of a downward spiral: T lategame is harder to control, therefore try to end it in the midgame - but that also means you get less practice for the lategame.
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On June 29 2014 02:16 Mojito99 wrote:
T v P lategame is somewhat missunderstood i feel like.
A true ghost viking composition is in theory at least on par if not stronger vs P lategame.
The issue being that in these scenarios control is key. And the T lategame army requires significantly more control then the P lategame army. Right now there are only a couple of Terrans who willingly go to the lategame vs P and their control shows it.
It becomes sort of a downward spiral: T lategame is harder to control, therefore try to end it in the midgame - but that also means you get less practice for the lategame.
I sort of agree. Taeja made late game TvP look imbalanced in favor of Terran when he 4-0'd MC, 3-0'd HerO, 2-0'd Patience and Oz, and also 2-0'd a few EU foreigners (who have been known to take games or even series from Koreans) all within the course of a week. He made his opponents look kind of helpless. It was interesting to me because his opponents are known for good PvT. Team Liquid did a strategy highlight article about HerO's PvT because it was so good. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/445605-how-to-run-a-pvt-clinic-hero-at-iem
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On June 29 2014 03:09 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 02:16 Mojito99 wrote:
T v P lategame is somewhat missunderstood i feel like.
A true ghost viking composition is in theory at least on par if not stronger vs P lategame.
The issue being that in these scenarios control is key. And the T lategame army requires significantly more control then the P lategame army. Right now there are only a couple of Terrans who willingly go to the lategame vs P and their control shows it.
It becomes sort of a downward spiral: T lategame is harder to control, therefore try to end it in the midgame - but that also means you get less practice for the lategame. I sort of agree. Taeja made late game TvP look imbalanced in favor of Terran when he 4-0'd MC, 3-0'd HerO, 2-0'd Patience and Oz, and also 2-0'd a few EU foreigners (who have been known to take games or even series from Koreans) all within the course of a week. He made his opponents look kind of helpless. It was interesting to me because his opponents are known for good PvT. Team Liquid did a strategy highlight article about HerO's PvT because it was so good. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/445605-how-to-run-a-pvt-clinic-hero-at-iem
Taeja on top of his game is at level ofthese top Kespa players, tier above Koreans playing in EU/US.
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Sorry for the delay, here's Aligulac 113.. The previous list(s) can be found at the end of this post.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Oc9x1bJ.png)
Looking at the winrates, P has extended its advantage over T, P has also gained some ground back against Z, yet TvZ has strongly turned in Z favour once gain (it's as bad as it was before the hellbat patch in April).
Population numbers are also worse. Previously there were 4x more ZvZ games than TvT games, now there are more than 5x. PvP's have not changed in number, so it's mostly just less terrans and more zergs getting further that's creating the problem.
All in all, balance-wise this was a very depressing period.
On June 12 2014 15:32 Ghanburighan wrote:Time to post the latest Aligulac list. The previous list can be found at the end of this post. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pKEYuFe.png) Regarding winrates, PvT has fluctuated back from T having a slight advantage to P having a minuscule advantage. In PvZ, P has also improved although it hasn't caught up with Z. On the other hand, T has improved in the TvZ MU (110 had 45%, 111 had 47%) and its even now. In terms of populations measured in numbers of mirror MUs, there's virtually no change compared to the last list, the proportions are very close. This means that there is no repopulation of terrans according to these numbers and there are 4 times fewer TvTs than ZvZs. As T MUs have even winrates, there cannot really be a repopulation with these numbers. Furthermore, a word of caution, I'd say that this was one of the best periods for Terran in a long while, Taeja won Hsc 9 (where Z had a comparatively weaker list of players), Maru is tearing up Code S, and Innovation is kicking as in teamleagues and the Dragon cup. I don't think they contributed overly much to the final winrates (their games are still a small fraction of all the games), but taken together they did contribute significantly. If they don't keep their winning ways going, winrates can plunge below 50% again. And, their wins aren't helping repopulate in any way. Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 02:45 Ghanburighan wrote:Uploading the latest Aligulac list. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wem39XJ.png) Unfortunately there was a TvZ patch in the middle of the period, so those numbers could be anything now. But it looks like P is doing worse against Z in terms of winrate. But the population ratios haven't changed compared to the last list, though. It's still roughly 1/4 TvT, 2/4 PvP and 1/1 ZvZ.
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On June 29 2014 03:58 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 03:09 Salient wrote:On June 29 2014 02:16 Mojito99 wrote:
T v P lategame is somewhat missunderstood i feel like.
A true ghost viking composition is in theory at least on par if not stronger vs P lategame.
The issue being that in these scenarios control is key. And the T lategame army requires significantly more control then the P lategame army. Right now there are only a couple of Terrans who willingly go to the lategame vs P and their control shows it.
It becomes sort of a downward spiral: T lategame is harder to control, therefore try to end it in the midgame - but that also means you get less practice for the lategame. I sort of agree. Taeja made late game TvP look imbalanced in favor of Terran when he 4-0'd MC, 3-0'd HerO, 2-0'd Patience and Oz, and also 2-0'd a few EU foreigners (who have been known to take games or even series from Koreans) all within the course of a week. He made his opponents look kind of helpless. It was interesting to me because his opponents are known for good PvT. Team Liquid did a strategy highlight article about HerO's PvT because it was so good. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/445605-how-to-run-a-pvt-clinic-hero-at-iem Taeja on top of his game is at level ofthese top Kespa players, tier above Koreans playing in EU/US.
Yeah, but if the only thing that is keeping terrans down is a lack of execution then we can just stop balance whining now and admit the game is balanced and that terrans are just lazy. You don't just ignore evidence presented of *how* to TvP just so you can say that Terrans are underpowered.
What Taeja's run shows is that the two races are actually *very* close to being balanced but there is something small that is preventing lowbies from performing as well as Taeja and Maru. It can't be that the game is a hard and has a skill ceiling because TL has taught me that SC2 is ezmode. So I wonder what it is that is seperating top level players from non-top-level players...
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EPT
