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On June 19 2014 16:14 Socup wrote:
[Mutas on the other hand, I have no idea why anti-air splash air units like Devourer, corsair, valk, were completely taken out. Sky Protoss is sickeningly OP against Zerg and Terran could use valks against muta balls. Or just give ravens irradiate back in addition to HSM and PDD. An SC2 version of irradiate might run something along the lines of doing 2-4 damage a tick so that it doesn't work so well vs higher armor units, but is deadly to muta balls, keep it from being OP against general Zerg but useful in necessary applications.
you do realize spell damage is not reduced by unit armour right?
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Socup I think that you have a massive misunderstanding of how the hellbat push work and the disadvantages that go along with it. Yes, hellbats themselves don't require any cost to build, however they require an armoury to build, which does cost gas, a factory, which does cost gas, and the key strength in the push itself is the medivacs, which cost 100 gas a pop along with the gas for the starport that is required to make them and the two reactors that is made from the barracks. When a terran is pushing early with 3 medivacs, (if you choose to ignore the gas cost of the infrastructure that is required to set it up), costing a total of 300 gas is it reasonable to hold off this push with an entirely gasless army of queens and zerglings? It would be grossly unfair if the zerg WAS able to hold off the push with just queens and zerglings.
Admittedly the gas cost of the reactors, factory and starport are all part of infrastructure that you will want to get at one point anyway, but if you are playing bio, the early armoury sets you back considerably, as does the spamming of medivacs because the gas you are spendings delays the production of important upgrades (Stim/Combat Shield) that are a necessity for bio to work well, especially vs roaches. The same also goes for mech, except this time the production of medivacs slows down your ability to produce factories that are important for being able to produce mech units. This is why spamming lots of roaches as a counter is not "all-in" as you say because you are guaranteed to do a lot of damage as terran's infrastructure won't be at the point where they can produce enough units to defend. Stimless marines in small numbers with no combat shield will get get shredded by a mass of roach, despite having the ability to produce medivacs.
You also say "Can Terran not spare one less hellbat to have a ridiculously higher damaging hellbat army when they go to push?" which is incredibly flawed. The whole point of the hellbat push is to hit at a timing when the armoury has finished. If the armoury has literally just finished, then how on earth is the terran supposed to have researched upgrades from it? The key problem with upgrades from the push is the lack of BIO upgrades that mean that gas based attacks from the zerg are impossible to hold.
Also your logic about Zerg all-ins is actually incredibly flawed as well. The main reason zergs are "all-in" after an early attack is not because they built army units, it is because they LOST their army units performing their attack and need to rebuilt units at home to defend a counter attack instead of droning up. If a good zerg see's that someone has managed to set up a position where their attack is going to be defended, they simply don't commit with the units and use them to impose map control while droning behind it. Yes the production of early zerglings would have set you back economically, but tactically there are lots of options with them. Watch how someone like Life plays for example.
The same is true about your logic about reapers killing drones and forcing lings, the whole point is that going for the extra reapers to try and kill drones/force lings slows down terrans infrastructure and production MORE than the loss of a drone or two does for zerg. Reapers take a very long time to build and it slows down the production of a reactor from the barracks and production of a factory (gas cost) which delays hellion pushes, which allows the zerg time to safely drone.
Basically, I don't think you understand how Terran is played and you have a huge zerg bias. Please try and think critically instead of making ill-informed judgements.
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@goof: a few points i want to adress.
Generally, it is not unreasonable to assume you hold with only lings and queens. The keypoint is to overmake them - basically use all the resources the terran puts into the infrastructure for a push on units themselve. Resulting in an army advantage for the defender. A basic principle of all eco/no tech vs tech/no eco strategies. Just in case of the hellbat push, there is a very strong zergling counter dynamic as well.
Ergo doing the same thing with still low tech roaches to defend is the solution.
Then, what you say about "going home and using your units" is true for any race. You dont have to push into mass roach/no upgrade/low tech like maru did against effort.
And no, you are not forces to play bio and die to a roach push after that. I dont even know why you'd even think about building ebays and starting stim, when your army consists of hellbats and your tech is 1-1-1+armory. Going into bio from there is just a poor choice.
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On June 19 2014 11:18 KelsierSC wrote:
As a zerg the timing is brutal to hold but I think it is great that Terran has this option.
Pretty much every ZvT if I didn't get proxy raxed I would just Roach - Bane all in and my Terran opponent would have 4 hellions and a 3rd CC because it was all they could do.
Metagame has diversified and that is a great thing.
Also Zerg and Terran need to continue hating protoss as is only right,
you have all my support bro!
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On June 19 2014 17:57 Goofinator wrote:
Socup I think that you have a massive misunderstanding of how the hellbat push work and the disadvantages that go along with it. Yes, hellbats themselves don't require any cost to build, however they require an armoury to build, which does cost gas, a factory, which does cost gas, and the key strength in the push itself is the medivacs, which cost 100 gas a pop along with the gas for the starport that is required to make them and the two reactors that is made from the barracks. When a terran is pushing early with 3 medivacs, (if you choose to ignore the gas cost of the infrastructure that is required to set it up), costing a total of 300 gas is it reasonable to hold off this push with an entirely gasless army of queens and zerglings? It would be grossly unfair if the zerg WAS able to hold off the push with just queens and zerglings.
Admittedly the gas cost of the reactors, factory and starport are all part of infrastructure that you will want to get at one point anyway, but if you are playing bio, the early armoury sets you back considerably, as does the spamming of medivacs because the gas you are spendings delays the production of important upgrades (Stim/Combat Shield) that are a necessity for bio to work well, especially vs roaches. The same also goes for mech, except this time the production of medivacs slows down your ability to produce factories that are important for being able to produce mech units. This is why spamming lots of roaches as a counter is not "all-in" as you say because you are guaranteed to do a lot of damage as terran's infrastructure won't be at the point where they can produce enough units to defend. Stimless marines in small numbers with no combat shield will get get shredded by a mass of roach, despite having the ability to produce medivacs.
You also say "Can Terran not spare one less hellbat to have a ridiculously higher damaging hellbat army when they go to push?" which is incredibly flawed. The whole point of the hellbat push is to hit at a timing when the armoury has finished. If the armoury has literally just finished, then how on earth is the terran supposed to have researched upgrades from it? The key problem with upgrades from the push is the lack of BIO upgrades that mean that gas based attacks from the zerg are impossible to hold.
Also your logic about Zerg all-ins is actually incredibly flawed as well. The main reason zergs are "all-in" after an early attack is not because they built army units, it is because they LOST their army units performing their attack and need to rebuilt units at home to defend a counter attack instead of droning up. If a good zerg see's that someone has managed to set up a position where their attack is going to be defended, they simply don't commit with the units and use them to impose map control while droning behind it. Yes the production of early zerglings would have set you back economically, but tactically there are lots of options with them. Watch how someone like Life plays for example.
The same is true about your logic about reapers killing drones and forcing lings, the whole point is that going for the extra reapers to try and kill drones/force lings slows down terrans infrastructure and production MORE than the loss of a drone or two does for zerg. Reapers take a very long time to build and it slows down the production of a reactor from the barracks and production of a factory (gas cost) which delays hellion pushes, which allows the zerg time to safely drone.
Basically, I don't think you understand how Terran is played and you have a huge zerg bias. Please try and think critically instead of making ill-informed judgements.
I played Terran in SC1 for years. I know buildings require gas. Do you think a Zerg timing with roaches and some upgrades take no gas?
As to combat shield, I'd get stim first if I were you and playing for bio after a hellbat push. You've got hellbats and possibly marauder to tank. Swap positions of shield and stim and get stim first and shield after if you're going to play a hellbat aggression into bio. That makes more sense.
On June 19 2014 16:24 19Meavis93 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 16:14 Socup wrote:
[Mutas on the other hand, I have no idea why anti-air splash air units like Devourer, corsair, valk, were completely taken out. Sky Protoss is sickeningly OP against Zerg and Terran could use valks against muta balls. Or just give ravens irradiate back in addition to HSM and PDD. An SC2 version of irradiate might run something along the lines of doing 2-4 damage a tick so that it doesn't work so well vs higher armor units, but is deadly to muta balls, keep it from being OP against general Zerg but useful in necessary applications. you do realize spell damage is not reduced by unit armour right?
You do realize that irradiate actually does no damage to non-bio units at all, right?
Spell damage is not reduced by unit armor for current spells. That says nothing about the possibility of having some affected by armor. You can make a map in customs and create this modification yourself, actually.
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The reason I mentioned gas cost was that Socup was talking about the hellbat push being a "mostly gasless army" which is clearly not the case. He thinks that it is unfair that you should stop droning and build only army units, and I was trying to point out that terran does go out of their way a lot to pull off this push and if zerg could just defend this by playing "standard" (building only drones and relying on queens to defend/block) it would not exactly be fair.
I can imagine that you could counter with queens/lings, but it would probably not be the most cost efficient trade and would leave you with no counter attack potential. Having a reactored factory and probably a wall off at the natural means that if you are massing lings to defend the push and then counter you have wasted resources as a few hellions and repairing SCVs holds the counter attack fairly easily - exactly what the terran wants you to do. However, if you counter attack with a mass of roaches, you are exploiting a hole in the hellbat strategy - the lack of infrastructure and a lot of sunken gas - getting a tank, marauders or a mass of marines + bunkers to defend the amount of leftover roaches that hit your door after the push is dealt with is just not possible.
And yes, bio is the much better option than going mech because you can get a mass of cheap units out faster because of the two reactors you already have with the hellbat + medivac push. Continuing to spam hellbats is suicide and if you get the factory to start building tanks with no meatshield then you are also going to die. You need to use the reactors to spam marines, which can do ok in bunkers vs roaches with mass repair, get healed by leftover medivacs and can meatshield for an eventual tank to stabalise. If you stop building medivacs you can use the gas from halted medivac poduction (200) to help start building 1 tank (125 + 25 for techlab) and stim (100+25) for 275 total, you are in a better position than investing the gas into more infrastructure (starting additional factories at 300/200 isn't too dissimilar from starting two ebays (something which you seemed to think was "unthinkable") with upgrades considering the amount of time it takes for the investment to pay off and actually have tanks on the field. By that point you are dead, which is why you need barracks and marines to delay until you can get the tanks.
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Also Soccup, you seem to be arguing against points that I didn't actually make rather than the things I did say. I never said a roach attack with upgrades doesn't cost gas, I was merely pointing out that the amount of gas that it would cost is comparable to the amount of gas that terran has to spend on the infrastructure + the medivacs. I also never said get combat shield first before stim, though it would be something to consider because combat shield is the faster upgrade and would therefore pay off quicker, especially if you still have some medivacs remaining anyway, but since you'll need to have most of your marines in bunkers anyway, you are better off getting stim first. Either way, the hellbat push requires terran to be macroing perfectly at home (all whilst doing a very micro intensive push with hellbats jumping in and out of medivacs) and delays their ideal army composition and infrastructure considerably, so whilst it is possible to transition out of, it is pretty hard to do.
The whole reason that the "fake blink all-in" is hard to deal with as terran is because having the gateways up for the all-in gives protoss the infrastructure to hold any counter aggression terran could do and they are only delaying their stalkers to get a nexus up and possibly double forge. The threat of the possible stalker attack (instant warp in) and the fact terran have to build units in advance means that terran has to sink money into defence (mass bunkers, pulled scvs, more marauder heavy composition) before they know if the protoss is committed. The protoss can then see how much terran is committing to the defence and then not commit to the attack themselves. This is VERY different to the all-inish timing of the hellbat + medivac attack because terran DOESN'T already have the infrastructure up to hold possible counters and the units HAVE to be built in advance. I don't believe that people in this topic are trying to compare the two in the slightest.
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I'm left wondering if you actually know the game you're talking about at all while at the same time saying the same thing to me.
The gas of an infrastructure build for hellbats is less than the gas of an early MM push with an attack upgrade and combat shield + stim.
As far as combat shield or stim order, combat shield has much less value than stim in the later early game or mid game. You want to be running from those banes or able to stutter step, not have 10 extra hp that disappears anyway because of ling/bling surround or roach spam. That's also not even regarding the fact that it affects marauders, too, giving marine and marauder much more DPS. It may look efficient from your view, but it's certainly not a good choice. If you have hellbats and marauders you already have the HP you need, now you need speed and damage. Combat shield isn't going to do that, stim is. Do you want to delay stim even longer as the game goes on because combat shield is a bit faster? That'd be suicide.
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If they can produce replays where they consistently made army units alongside drones instead of frontloaded droning until the moment of needing army and then switching production and being equal (read: slightly or moderately ahead) in economy to T or P, I'd like to see those replays. I honestly wish it could work like that, but from pros to plats, it universally trends that Zerg must spend everything in drones unless they're building an army to defend or all-in early game. There used to be such as thing as aggressive early game Zerg back when people were bad, like 2011-2012. In this case aggressive means damaging pokes that aren't all-in. People have pushed macro and exponential army growth to the limits since then, which has significantly changed what the reactive race can do.
Huh, what? Watch ANY Korean zvt since HotS came out. There are points in the early game 6-8 min where they will cut drones in favor of units. For instance the time between two base saturation and the third finishes they will build a round of ling to contest map control from hellions. With the Terran on the back foot they then power in another 20 drones because that's how Zerg works. It's the same reason why they can transition from roach bane attack into a third and macro game.
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You are doing the same thing again - you are ignoring the points that I made and are arguing against things that I didn't even say to try and back up your points that I have already explained to be fallacious. If you do not respond with some logical rebuttal then I don't particularly want to continue with this discussion.
I don't understand what "the gas of an infrastructure build is less than the gas of an early MM push with an attack upgrade and combat shield + stim" has to do with anything I said. We are talking about the hellbat push - if you do the hellbat push and then go into mech infrastructure or do the hellbat push into bio, you will not be doing an early MM push with attack upgrade with combat shield + stim. The point I was making is that the hellbat push leaves the terran lacking in key infrastructure which can be exploited by good play by the zerg due to the fact that you have spent a lot of gas/time in infrastructure and units that makes it hard to deal with counter-pushes at home and delays your ideal late-game situation.
When I was referring to the choice of combat shield over stim I was specifically referring to the possibility of a roach counter that is aimed at ending the game straight away to exploit the heavy investment in units/tech. In that situation you are thinking only about surviving because it is very easy for you to die to mass roach. There is no point starting stim if you are going to die before it completes, just because it would set you up better for a late game that you are never going to actually get to. Anyway, if you actually read the rest of my post instead of cherrypicking and making up stuff, I said that I agreed getting stim was probably overall the better option because most of the marines were in bunkers, but it would not be as crazy as you were making out to consider combat shield.
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On June 19 2014 20:02 Goofinator wrote:
The reason I mentioned gas cost was that Socup was talking about the hellbat push being a "mostly gasless army" which is clearly not the case. He thinks that it is unfair that you should stop droning and build only army units, and I was trying to point out that terran does go out of their way a lot to pull off this push and if zerg could just defend this by playing "standard" (building only drones and relying on queens to defend/block) it would not exactly be fair.
I can imagine that you could counter with queens/lings, but it would probably not be the most cost efficient trade and would leave you with no counter attack potential. Having a reactored factory and probably a wall off at the natural means that if you are massing lings to defend the push and then counter you have wasted resources as a few hellions and repairing SCVs holds the counter attack fairly easily - exactly what the terran wants you to do. However, if you counter attack with a mass of roaches, you are exploiting a hole in the hellbat strategy - the lack of infrastructure and a lot of sunken gas - getting a tank, marauders or a mass of marines + bunkers to defend the amount of leftover roaches that hit your door after the push is dealt with is just not possible.
And yes, bio is the much better option than going mech because you can get a mass of cheap units out faster because of the two reactors you already have with the hellbat + medivac push. Continuing to spam hellbats is suicide and if you get the factory to start building tanks with no meatshield then you are also going to die. You need to use the reactors to spam marines, which can do ok in bunkers vs roaches with mass repair, get healed by leftover medivacs and can meatshield for an eventual tank to stabalise. If you stop building medivacs you can use the gas from halted medivac poduction (200) to help start building 1 tank (125 + 25 for techlab) and stim (100+25) for 275 total, you are in a better position than investing the gas into more infrastructure (starting additional factories at 300/200 isn't too dissimilar from starting two ebays (something which you seemed to think was "unthinkable") with upgrades considering the amount of time it takes for the investment to pay off and actually have tanks on the field. By that point you are dead, which is why you need barracks and marines to delay until you can get the tanks.
Additional production is not going to finish for a direct counter push (which is the only scenario in which you are hardpressed with production) one way or another (assuming you build a 3rd CC), so "you can get a mass of cheap units out faster" doesn't matter at all. And even if these production facilities finish, hellbats/mines/tanks are much more efficient in production than marines/marauders, so you need less factories as well and it turns out pretty evenly in investment costs.
If you are producing tanks anyways, I don't see why you wouldn't upgrade them and keep on going for mech units, since you have an armory.
Aside from having most of the pieces for Mech already and much fewer for bio - which is one of the biggest downsides of that style - your main problem with bio is going to be that you won't be able to push out until 12-13mins again because of the lack of stim/shields, which completely breaks your tempo. And then bio just falls flat on its face, while Mech actually doesn't care at all about not being able to push and doesn't fall behind in the upgrades as much, because you already have an armory.
Also bio with an upgrade disadvantage is usually not very good, one way or another, assuming the opponent plays standard.
All of that is of course assuming that the game isn't lost completely. If you lost all your hellbats and the opponent has a roach army, which is the picture you are drawing - since you assume you have no meatshield left for tanks - it doesn't matter at all what you do from there. You're dead.
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On June 19 2014 20:57 Goofinator wrote:
I don't understand what "the gas of an infrastructure build is less than the gas of an early MM push with an attack upgrade and combat shield + stim" has to do with anything I said. We are talking about the hellbat push - if you do the hellbat push and then go into mech infrastructure or do the hellbat push into bio, you will not be doing an early MM push with attack upgrade with combat shield + stim. The point I was making is that the hellbat push leaves the terran lacking in key infrastructure which can be exploited by good play by the zerg due to the fact that you have spent a lot of gas/time in infrastructure and units that makes it hard to deal with counter-pushes at home and delays your ideal late-game situation.
You previously wrote:
On June 19 2014 17:57 Goofinator wrote:
Yes, hellbats themselves don't require any cost to build, however they require an armoury to build, which does cost gas, a factory, which does cost gas, and the key strength in the push itself is the medivacs, which cost 100 gas a pop along with the gas for the starport that is required to make them and the two reactors that is made from the barracks. When a terran is pushing early with 3 medivacs, (if you choose to ignore the gas cost of the infrastructure that is required to set it up), costing a total of 300 gas is it reasonable to hold off this push with an entirely gasless army of queens and zerglings? It would be grossly unfair if the zerg WAS able to hold off the push with just queens and zerglings.
Admittedly the gas cost of the reactors, factory and starport are all part of infrastructure that you will want to get at one point anyway, but if you are playing bio, the early armoury sets you back considerably, as does the spamming of medivacs because the gas you are spendings delays the production of important upgrades (Stim/Combat Shield) that are a necessity for bio to work well, especially vs roaches.
What I have a hard time understanding is why you would have hellbats and marauders and then ask the marines to tank.
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1/1/1 transitions equally into bio or mech, you will need the armoury for bio eventually anyway and the only thing you are missing out on is the engineering bay, something you need to get for mech regardless. It is cheaper to produce additional barracks and factories and it is quicker to get out reactored marines than it is to get out tanks so your best bet is to transition into bio.
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On June 20 2014 00:38 Goofinator wrote:
1/1/1 transitions equally into bio or mech, you will need the armoury for bio eventually anyway and the only thing you are missing out on is the engineering bay, something you need to get for mech regardless. It is cheaper to produce additional barracks and factories and it is quicker to get out reactored marines than it is to get out tanks so your best bet is to transition into bio.
I don't understand the point you are trying to make. If the hellbat rush fails, you are behind. It doesn't matter if you go bio or mech, doesn't matter if you die immediately to a roach counter or 10 min later from late upgrades and a bad economy.
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Yeah, that is what I have been saying the hellbat push is a commitment - everything gets delayed. The only chance to hold is to go bio but you are playing from far behind and have to rely on way superior micro/multitasking or lucky drops to win. If you die immediately you don't have the chance to outplay the opponent, which you can at least try and do with bio.
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On June 20 2014 02:02 Goofinator wrote:
Yeah, that is what I have been saying the hellbat push is a commitment - everything gets delayed. The only chance to hold is to go bio but you are playing from far behind and have to rely on way superior micro/multitasking or lucky drops to win. If you die immediately you don't have the chance to outplay the opponent, which you can at least try and do with bio.
There is zero reason you can't go mech. You are overstating the ability of drop harass to turn the game around. I'd contend that a mech transition with its strong defensive capabilities can punish bad decisions by the Zerg a lot better than bio.
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He's also overstating the loss Terran has for harass or aggression. If Terran's best bet was not to do that stuff because the Zerg "survives" by going full army production and possibly losing a third base to the push, then all Terrans would play for some mid or late game and never go for early attack.
If you're attacking a Zerg constantly, the Zerg isn't attacking you or being able to macro. That's a dead Zerg. I think as Protoss AND Terran start taking measure to bait untimely armies out from Zerg and attack more than one place at a time, we'll start seeing Zergs tank in W:L ratio.
Going for a 6 gate all-in? Hit half in one place and draw his army out, skirmish and stutter step away with superior range from your stalkers, while a hit squad of stalkers and zealots move into his main and kill his drones and tech buildings.
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On June 20 2014 04:57 Socup wrote:
He's also overstating the loss Terran has for harass or aggression. If Terran's best bet was not to do that stuff because the Zerg "survives" by going full army production and possibly losing a third base to the push, then all Terrans would play for some mid or late game and never go for early attack.
If you're attacking a Zerg constantly, the Zerg isn't attacking you or being able to macro. That's a dead Zerg. I think as Protoss AND Terran start taking measure to bait untimely armies out from Zerg and attack more than one place at a time, we'll start seeing Zergs tank in W:L ratio.
Going for a 6 gate all-in? Hit half in one place and draw his army out, skirmish and stutter step away with superior range from your stalkers, while a hit squad of stalkers and zealots move into his main and kill his drones and tech buildings. Do you even play zerg? If you dont have speedlings or roaches by the time a 6 gate all in is going to hit you deserve to die. Speedlings will crush stalkers and zealots if built in the proper numbers, same with roaches, and if you hold it as zerg and the toss doesnt gg immediately just take youre 4th and outmacro him to a win. Its all about knowing its coming, zerg can easily hold anything as long as they have the proper information ahead of time.
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On June 20 2014 05:30 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 04:57 Socup wrote:
He's also overstating the loss Terran has for harass or aggression. If Terran's best bet was not to do that stuff because the Zerg "survives" by going full army production and possibly losing a third base to the push, then all Terrans would play for some mid or late game and never go for early attack.
If you're attacking a Zerg constantly, the Zerg isn't attacking you or being able to macro. That's a dead Zerg. I think as Protoss AND Terran start taking measure to bait untimely armies out from Zerg and attack more than one place at a time, we'll start seeing Zergs tank in W:L ratio.
Going for a 6 gate all-in? Hit half in one place and draw his army out, skirmish and stutter step away with superior range from your stalkers, while a hit squad of stalkers and zealots move into his main and kill his drones and tech buildings. Do you even play zerg? If you dont have speedlings or roaches by the time a 6 gate all in is going to hit you deserve to die. Speedlings will crush stalkers and zealots if built in the proper numbers, same with roaches, and if you hold it as zerg and the toss doesnt gg immediately just take youre 4th and outmacro him to a win. Its all about knowing its coming, zerg can easily hold anything as long as they have the proper information ahead of time.
9000 Z ladder games.
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So basically i used to play sc1 like 12 years ago or even more and i've always been familiar with it but rts wasn't that much fun for me and i was leaning more towards other games. Few years ago sc2 came out and i was interested so i started watching streams and stuff, at some point i was watching SC2 games every night before i go to sleep because i needed to get sleepy and boredom and everything. Its been nearly 3 years of me watching star craft pro play (mostly tournaments) and since i play other games on a very high level and i play games in general for a long time i've always had a thing for balance and for analyzing and so here it goes..
.. so i've noticed sc2 is imbalanced as fk throughout the years but since i never played it i didn't really know how much it is imbalanced exactly until like 3 weeks ago i decided to play it and since then i've been playing it (while watching the tournaments going on at the same time, cba naming them but yes imma talk about taeja's 2 tourny victories)
Basically this game is a joke, i don't know why anyone even spends a dime on it, sc2 is by far the most imbalanced and broken "competitive' game i've ever seen. Whoever says that all 3 races are balanced has some serious delusion and some real issues, the games i play rely a lot more on brain and thinking rather than skill like sc2 is so im actually prepared for a wave of undeveloped butthurt kids getting mad.
Before i start whining about whats imbalanced, i wanna say that sc2 players in general really lack the brains and even pro players and casters and such make such stupid mistakes and their strategies are often utterly horrible, illogical and plain bad. They often have shit responses to things and it feels like they don't research their enemies at all or anything it feels like "ITS ABOUT THEM APM BRUUUH" and theyre some speed freaks or something that enjoy mashing their screen without thinking much. I should be hired as someone's coach tbh i'll skyrocket him to grand finals every time. Last but not least, people talking about balance and the majority of sc2 players are 15-23 year old kids with little to no-brain and they have very big difficulty judging the situation properly and separating player skill from game balance and they think when you make a statement such as "roach op" that roach has 100% win rate and it'l always win and if it doesnt then ur wrong or something.
Anyhow, to get to the point
First: Zerg is the best race and are OP in general (and i dislike them the most, always have).
- zerg expand ~ Zergs have been the best race since sc2 came out and if you don't think so then you have some issues. Im not sure how it came to be but by today its common sense that a zerg can just expand as he pleases and nobody can even punish them for it. Zerg can open hatch first and get away with it while other races have to expand 5 minutes later in most games just lol. How is this logical or balanced? Explain it to me? Because zerg's lore is that they're a swarm so they swarm you with numbers? But their units are already x2 (zerglings) or cost less minerals for that exact reason to give the idea that they're a swarm so having extra base or 50% more income (which is usually the case in any pro game) has absolutely fucking nothing with balance whatsoever. If a zerg has 2k minerals per minute and a terran has 1300 minerals then clearly the zerg has more, its not normal but the casters and the entire community considers it as normal. I've seen people complain about this and rightly so but there aren't many people complaining about it. If you expand as a toss or a terran against a zerg as fast as they do, not only their expansion will be better but they'll send zerglings and stuff and harrass you and beat you because this game makes absolutely no sense
- Creep~ obviously creep is overpowered, vision and speed over the whole map cause why not ? Imagine toss had that just imagine the amount of QQ there would be
- Too strong units~ zerglings are very cost efficient and good and yes they arent the most cost efficient unit the game but they are way too good, roaches tho.. roaches top the cake. I've never seen a pro player lose with mass roach like ever , it is just uncounterable. They have way too good stats and are too easy to make and to mass, their damage is huge and they can kite anything. Mutalisks are way over the top compared to other flying units, mass mutalisk is utterly broken and its the reason why its prefered in most games. Hydra's damage is insane, vipers are good, infestors are good, banelings are way too good and then you have swarm hosts too which are situationally good. All their units are good unlike other races who have so much crap .
- Harrass me or lose~ i find it hilarious how its common sense that you must harrass a zerg or you will lose, how exactly is this balanced or how does it have anything to do with whos a better player? lol.
In terms of race balance it goes like Zerg > terran >toss not just right now but since i remember this game. Sure you can get mad and tell me that its not true but thats probably the rager kid in you speaking that can't accept the fact that if you lose to a toss you either screwed up either got outplayed either lost the game of rock, scissors, papers because thats how bad star craft is , that is also the reason why teh game is full of ragers. I was thinking (since im an analyzer/thinker,, obiviously) whats the reason to have people rage (Idra etc) and i first thought maybe because its 1v1 but then i thought about fighting games. Sure people rage there too but its much less and overall theyre a lot more respectable and stuff and its because in there u can praise/see their skill while in SC2 you OFTEN LOSE JUST BECAUSE OF YOUR UNIT CHOICE, turns out the enemy decided to go some unit that counters yours tough shit gg l0l. Its hard to praise your opponent or even say GG when you lose to cheese or to enemy just getting lucky, literally. Theres nothing fun in that and it is very rage-worthy
Second: Marine/Marauder is just out of this world, ridiculous to a whole new level. So zerg might be the most OP race but terran marine marauder is just as OP , the only reason i didn't say terran is more OP is because they can actually fool themself and go mech instead go bio lol just lol. This is where i mention taeja winning 2 tournaments with only mass bio just recently. 17-0 with only marine marauder every single game, MMM is just unbeatable because they are so fucking overpowered holy fucking shit. I think blizzard is horrible at balance and watching star craft makes me feel bad for some of the players and the way they lose.
How do you stop MMM as zerg? You need banelings and you need to land your hits, banelings are actually good but landing good hits isn't no effort unlike MMM is , stim, attack, run, repeat. You are literally forced to either make more units and win by swarming them or to land banelings which require a lot better micro than marines mostly anyways (except when splitting). How do you stop MMM as protoss? You don't, you just lose, not only you lose you get humiliated while you're at it and you get 3-o'd on grand finals for 20 minutes and the whole world laughs at you and in the end its not even your fault its blizzard's fault. Tier 1 terran units rape the shyt out of all tiers of protoss units and the only realistic chance you have against terran is to have colossos and templars and at the same time you need to have a decent amount of meatshields *and* land forcefields. How to beat mass bio terran? You need perfect positioning/vision which is much harder since your deathball is a lot less mobile, you need to setup a perfect fight, execute perfectly , land your forcefields and kite properly with colossos if needed, but then the terran goes viking so yeah game over anyway. Its just unbeatable. Even if we assume that you can actually beat mmm with toss deathball then that should be normal because colossos and shit is fucking tier 3 units which require shitload of gas and minerals and time to make. If you think that its normal in this game for a race to require higher tier unit to stop lower tier unit then you have some serious and severe issues and if you think MMM is fair or balanced you should get a reality check. What happens if MMM flanks colossos? gg. What happens if you get flanked? Ride on the medivacs and boost out np, even if we assume you lose your army which is unlikely then you can just rebuild it cause its that fucking easy lol.
MMM mobility, damage, even tankiness (marauders and even marines with heals) is insane, they are a ball so you melees are inefficient against them altho melees can be kited easily, ranged can also be kited or focused down with stim if you just ignore the rest. You can easily snipe bases anywhere on the map with MMM. It is overpowered and while tajea did have a lot better macro play he screwed up several times severely which could've costed him the game if he wasnt bio but it didnt cus MMM is that broken. The reason why hes #1 right now is exactly that, its because mmm is op and he has the macro skills. This is the only game where tier 1 uttelry obliterates everything else in the game. Terrans also have a lot better harass than protoss (so they can deal with zerg easier even tho zerg is OP and this game is a joke that its common sense to harrass zerg because if u sit back they'll win ,lol just lol). Terran mech is not so OP but its a lot better than protoss one in most cases. Oh and last but not least, if you're a terran and you don't go bio then you'll probably lose or you're a hero.
Third: Protoss - the worst race? I feel bad when i watch protoss and i hear zealots die, i really do. It hurts my soul because injustice in general pisses me off and protoss are underpowered compared to other 2 races so i cant help but symphatize. Why is protoss bad? They have only one good unit and it is situationally good and thats the blink stalker. Zealots are utterly bad, colossos is bad and super vulnerable and easy to kill, sentries can be good, high templars are a joke and anyone that makes them has some issues, dark templars are good if you can make them work but if your enemy doesnt let you then they aren't, void rays and phoenix can be okay but they both get destroyed by mass mmm or hydras which is what everyone spams nowadays anyway. Toss is the only race that has to have high tier units to beat other races otherwise they will just fail,as a toss mistakes cost the most and if you lose your good units then you'll likely lose the game. Oh and toss also has no way of stopping mass muta except prolly storm.
So let me mention some stuff because im sure people are not gonna account this. Upgrades matter so if you see a toss raping someone else then it doesnt neccessarily mean that my post is false. Skill does matter in this game and i never said it does and skill and balance are not related to each other, positioning and the way you engage matters a lot so if you see a weaker army beat a better one it doesnt neccessarily have to be more OP. Player skill and micro/macro matter a lot which is the reason why you dont see protosses stuck at the bottom where they kinda should be, also theres one other thing: Zerg greed. The major reason why most zergs lose is because they are utterly greedy and keep going for expansions and they get harrassed and cant defend their old one and thats because of some placebo effect or something that makes them think that they are SUPPOSED TO GET MORE BASES CAUSE WELL ZURG DURRR. Thats so stupid ,thats so unreal ,thats so untrue. Zerg players lose so many games due to pathetic and obvious greed which gets punished by the other player. Its not the race or anything its the greed that punishes them. Also ultralisks are often utterly horrible and misused and i've sseen many zergs lose cause they make ultras for whatever stupid reason that makes no sense.
so since im a nice person you can consider this as a tip, stop being so greedy and analyze the situation properly and you'll lose less as a zerg, also dont make stupid units and stick to spamming overpowered ones. Same goes for terran, as for protoss then you have few choices, one is to get turbo good at everything and mostly guerilla tactics and the other one is to whine until blizzard get their minds straight
Another important thing i've seen which you might probably know but you arent sure: guerilla attacks and split attacks are incredibly good in sc2 and they are hard to preform but it is often the reason why toss and terran players win (with some clutch warp prism in enemy base while their main army is fighting), i've seen a lot of good guerilla tactic plays and they are hard to deal with most of the time and very efficient because people are usually greedy and dont wanna defend their base enough and waste resources on it. In fact its the only way toss can beat most races (besides with cheese and its probably why toss is the race that cheeses the most ) . Zealots are horrible units as i said earlier but zealot warm prism harrass is insane good if done properly and if enemy doesn't stop it and recently even i saw few tosses winning like that and it was joy to my eyes and well executed.
And to finish this, i know i suck at star craft but i have a lot of knowledge and now i have some experience which i can finally put to work and i can make sense out of things. I know at what areas i lack and even tho i started few weeks ago i win a lot because of my knowledge alone, however, i always lose to mass bio terran because its unkillable for me (i've tried absolutely everything in the game and even if i manage to kill the army over and over he just rebuilds it cause yeah). From what i've seen on streams nobody wins vs mass bio anyway (good terran with mass bio always wins unless he makes a mistake or his enemy outplays him somehow) Out of lets say 200 games i've met 110 terrans 60 zergs and 30 protoss because this game is bad like that. Also all of the games vs toss they just either tried to cheese or sucked horrible and very few of them had any clue how to play.
User was temp banned for this post.
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